Topic: Naby Keita Watch

[Johns_Barn]

One thing to point out - this will be his first time playing twice a week. His number of minutes per season are slightly (about 20%) above what Origi played last season simply because due to the fact the Bundesliga is smaller, has less competitions and he didn't play in europe. He also burns out towards the end of matches due to the outrageous work he puts in. A good example is the Bayern 4-5 games last season. For the first 70 minutes he literally was everywhere. Not the Redknapp version of the word either though - I mean he was always somewhere in shot. Then as he tired, Bayern got on top and scored 3 in the final 10 minutes.

I remember when Lallana and Firmino first came here they would regularly be subbed off before the end and it became a recurring thing - will they ever do a full 90 minutes? People who put in an outrageous effort either need to find ways to pick and chose their movement better (Gerrard) or condition themselves better to maintain their levels for the full 90 minutes (Firmino).

I suspect Keita will be a game a week player at first with rotation and may even struggle to finish games. We will manage that though of course. It's just a question of conditioning.

Which would make a Jan signing all the better.

[Chalky Boots]

I don't think it is clear though.

I'm not trying to downplay Keita's ability. He looks a hugely promising player. But it's not even close to being clear that he has the attributes to be more complete than Gerrard. For a start, Gerrard was a big game player. UEFA Cup final, European Cup Final, FA Cup final and League Cup final. Scorers in all 4. He was the ultimate big game player. Brought his A-game when it mattered. Where's the evidence that Keita can do that? Where's the evidence that Keita cope with the expectations of a big club?

Like I said I'm not trying to downplay Keita. He looks a tremendous prospect with a full range of attributes. But he's a million miles away from being the player Gerrard was for Liverpool. That's as much to do with how good Gerrard was than any of Keita's potential.

I think that's narrowing it down to pure impact as players. Gerrard as a talent, as a force of nature is probably one of the all time great attacking midfielders but at the same time some of the things that made him truly unique (his speed over distance, his shooting, delivery,penetrating runs & recovery tackles) maybe hindered him when it came to the subtleties such as defensive positioning, interceptions from deep, blocking of space. I think that's possibly where the idea that Keita can be more complete is coming from, he seems to have an appreciation of both aspects of his game.

Visually they couldn't be anymore different though, likewise with their position on the pitch and their output goes. Visually at least to me it's like watching someone with the best bits of Klopp years Kagawa, Kante with a bit of Hazard sprinkled in for good measure.

[newterp]

Burns out towards the ends of matches?? Sell now.

[BabuYagu]

Burns out towards the ends of matches?? Sell now.

He runs more in the first 70 minutes that any player in 90 though

^{(there is no data to backup this claim)}

[Chakan]

He runs more in the first 70 minutes that any player in 90 though

^{(there is no data to backup this claim)}

Tell him to stop doing that! Pace himself.

[BabuYagu]

Tell him to stop doing that! Pace himself.

I remember Rafa doing this with Gerrard, for example.

It's interesting also that 12 months ago Firmino & Lallana would never complete 90 minutes. THey were the hard pressers. Since then though it seems either they control when and where to go or they are conditioned better for it.

[BazC]

I remember Rafa doing this with Gerrard, for example.

It's interesting also that 12 months ago Firmino & Lallana would never complete 90 minutes. THey were the hard pressers. Since then though it seems either they control when and where to go or they are conditioned better for it.

As the team has matured they definitely pace themselves during the game. Initial 20min hurricane, hopefully a goal or two, then they'll stop pressing as aggressively. It's why it's so important for us to get the first goal i think, because it allows them to start managing the game more. We saw it pretty distinctly versus Arsenal, which was the perfect performance. First period of all guns blazing, get the goal, then start sitting off a bit more, looking more for the counter attacks now the opponent has to come at us. Then after half time another whirlwind.

This summer, of course, we've bought more attackers - we'll see more rotation as part of that energy management approach, and we've seen some rotation even in the first games. A longer calendar this season so it'll be much needed! Whilst Keita comes in, those first handful of games he'll be rotated and subbed, whilst he syncs with the team and gets his own fitness up.

Looking forward to seeing him in our midfield!

[sirKennyDaggers]

Looking forward to seeing him Friday v Hamburg!

[RayPhilAlan]

I've just remembered a post I made about 2 years ago during the summer transfer window. I can't now find it as that transfer forum is off limits, but in it I talked about the calibre of player we should look for to replace Gerrard in the team.

I talked about Gerrard's world-class attributes (his passing, long-range shooting, will to win and a couple of others) as well as other world-class midfield attributes (I probably mentioned Iniesta's dribbling, Xavi's control of the game and so on) and said that whoever we bring in should be world-class, or potentially world-class, in at least one midfield attribute.

A few people scoffed at the thought that we could bring in a player worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as Gerrard or Iniesta. But we've done it now, haven't we?

Brings a smile to my face every time I see this thread!

[harleydanger]

I don't think he's there yet, to be mentioned in the same breath as Gerard/Xavi/iniesta.

I'm his biggest fan but let's not build him up into a Guinean Dalglish, at least until he dribbles past 6 mancs and nutmegs De Gea in the season opener.

[Ken-Obi]

I'll call Keita a successor to whoever he is touted to become ie. Gerrard, Dalglish, Jean Michel Ferri etc when it happens.

Anybody can potentially be better than Gerrard, will they though? Putting expectations more than that justified for the young upcoming player at this point of his career is a good way to get disappointed as he goes through the process of shaking out common rookie problems.

[ThePoolMan]

I'll call Keita a successor to whoever he is touted to become ie. Gerrard, Dalglish, Jean Michel Ferri etc when it happens.

Anybody can potentially be better than Gerrard, will they though? Putting expectations more than that justified for the young upcoming player at this point of his career is a good way to get disappointed as he goes through the process of shaking out common rookie problems.

That;s what potential means though - it is unrealised as of yet and whether it will be or not epends on the player. But looking at what kind of displays he is already showing, the signs are good and grounds for much hope and optimism for us.

[Johns_Barn]

Huh? So only white people can have dopplegangers? Sounds like something a white person would assume.

Le sigh....it helps when they look alike, you know...complexion, eyes, structure. Many of think the phenotype net is a little too broad at toopack. I almost posted an image of Jim Davidson as chalkey but then thought about it a tiny bit more. Self regulation on the interweb, fam...it'll never catch on...

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[Jookie]

I realised recently when watching teams I pay a lot of attention to certain players (e.g. for Leipzig I would focus on Werner, Forsberg, Keita, Orban) and as a result not really notice others. I watch them both on and off the ball.

Honest questions here. How do you watch players off the ball properly on TV? Your general view on TV is restricted to a proportion of the pitch. I agree you can get a sense of off the ball movement from TV but I would say you really need to be at the games to see that properly.

[Glen C]

Steven Gerrard was, I thought, a once in 50 years player. He had almost every skill set in a professional outfield player in his locker - superb passing range, great creativity and vision, powerful and accurate shooting for goal, great pace and endurance, box to box mobility, the ability to destroy play of other teams, and strength and great determination, consistency, and leadership ability. I did not think that another player like him would be a Reds player again for a long long time.

If Keita fulfils the promise that is seen in the video clips, Keita appears to have what it takes to not only become a player comparable to Gerrard in terms of attributes, but to actually exceed him. Gerrard was never renowned for his dribbling ability and tackling though he was always very enthusiastic about the latter. Keita on the other hand is an elite-level dribbler who would put to shame most wingers. At the same time he has the ability to anticipate passes of others and to intercept as well as to win 50-50 balls with the ferocity and ability of another mascherano. Practically the only thing that Keita appears to be ill-equipped to do due to his height is to be a good header of the ball.  But in every other respect, he seems to have the potential to be even closer to the embodiment of the Roy of the Rovers all-in-one star player than even Gerrard was.

Let us hope that he will achieve his potential and even exceed it, and that he will emulate Gerrard in his long years of service to the club and spend the best years of his career playing for Liverpool. If he does that, I feel very confident that he will put to shame the likes of Pogba etc and be voted the best player in the Premiership and even in Europe in short order.

I think you're getting a bit carried away here.  Yes he has the potential to be a very good player, but to exceed gerrard?  C'mon now lets be realistic here. Gerrard in his prime could play in various positions and still be world class.  We won't see another gerrard in our lifetime IMO.  Its unafair on Keita to be hyping him up to such a level.  Many players look good in other leagues but fail to make it here.  I'm not saying he won't, but lets not put too much expectation on the player.

[Bergersrightwingviews]

He is not going to be Gerrard or Iniesta he I going to be Liverpool's Naby Keita and he is going to be boss.

[ThePoolMan]

I think you're getting a bit carried away here.  Yes he has the potential to be a very good player, but to exceed gerrard?  C'mon now lets be realistic here. Gerrard in his prime could play in various positions and still be world class.  We won't see another gerrard in our lifetime IMO.  Its unafair on Keita to be hyping him up to such a level.  Many players look good in other leagues but fail to make it here.  I'm not saying he won't, but lets not put too much expectation on the player.

Well, time will tell...and I am sure you will much rather prefer that I am right and you are wrong in the end as that would mean that we have the world's best midfielder!

[Glen C]

Well, time will tell...and I am sure you will much rather prefer that I am right and you are wrong in the end as that would mean that we have the world's best midfielder!

Mate i would be MORE THAN HAPPY if you were proved right and i was wrong.  I will be watching him in the CL this season.

[BabuYagu]

Honest questions here. How do you watch players off the ball properly on TV? Your general view on TV is restricted to a proportion of the pitch. I agree you can get a sense of off the ball movement from TV but I would say you really need to be at the games to see that properly.

Depends a lot on if they use the main camera or they go closer in. Also whether the ball is moving vertically or not.

When using the main camera you can see about 1/3 of the pitch. If we are playing a low block you can usually see the movements our players are making (or not). The camera moves very little as you are playing in front of the block looking for spaces.

The other time is on counter attacks. Take for example the Palace one where Jason Puncheon had a shot. I was paying attention to Robertson as I wanted to see how good he was at recovering given the attack was happening down his side and he was staying just inside the shot for most of the attack but was never really sprinting to get back. It was the 42nd minute of his first game and he talked about how fitness was his biggest obstacle now so he might have just been exhausted. But it was interesting for me. Most players move faster forward than they do back which is why I have respect for Moreno- he works equally hard in both directions. Henderson too. It's something I tend to look for on counter attacks. Who wants to make it back, who makes a token effort.

[redmark]

I remember Rafa doing this with Gerrard, for example.

It's interesting also that 12 months ago Firmino & Lallana would never complete 90 minutes. THey were the hard pressers. Since then though it seems either they control when and where to go or they are conditioned better for it.

The squawka comparison I posted of Firmino vs Suarez on defensive stats suggests Firmino pressed more times per 90 minutes when he was regularly being substituted on 60-65 minutes, so it does appear that he reduced the workrate in 2016/17 vs 2015/16, rather than being fitter.

[Jookie]

Depends a lot on if they use the main camera or they go closer in. Also whether the ball is moving vertically or not.

When using the main camera you can see about 1/3 of the pitch. If we are playing a low block you can usually see the movements our players are making (or not). The camera moves very little as you are playing in front of the block looking for spaces.

The other time is on counter attacks. Take for example the Palace one where Jason Puncheon had a shot. I was paying attention to Robertson as I wanted to see how good he was at recovering given the attack was happening down his side and he was staying just inside the shot for most of the attack but was never really sprinting to get back. It was the 42nd minute of his first game and he talked about how fitness was his biggest obstacle now so he might have just been exhausted. But it was interesting for me. Most players move faster forward than they do back which is why I have respect for Moreno- he works equally hard in both directions. Henderson too. It's something I tend to look for on counter attacks. Who wants to make it back, who makes a token effort.

Cheers for the answer mate.

I only ask because not seeing the full pitch is one of my frustrations with watching games on TV. Seeing the whole pitch and being able to observe players off the ball movement is one of the benefits of being at a game. I think last season I appreciated Mane and Firmino's movement even more after seeing them in the flesh a few times.


Really like your posts and insight by the way mate.

[BabuYagu]

The squawka comparison I posted of Firmino vs Suarez on defensive stats suggests Firmino pressed more times per 90 minutes when he was regularly being substituted on 60-65 minutes, so it does appear that he reduced the workrate in 2016/17 vs 2015/16, rather than being fitter.

Interesting. Wish I had access to those sprint and distance run stats for his time here to see some more detail on that. Firmino must be one of the only footballers alive whose coach told him not to work so hard

Cheers for the answer mate.

I only ask because not seeing the full pitch is one of my frustrations with watching games on TV. Seeing the whole pitch and being able to observe players off the ball movement is one of the benefits of being at a game. I think last season I appreciated Mane and Firmino's movement even more after seeing them in the flesh a few times.


Really like your posts and insight by the way mate.

Cheers. I agree you see much more when you see it live. I tend to watch certain players to see if they remain switched on or not. I've seen some players who have a bad habit of turning around and walking into position at throwins, corners etc. Don't know why but that really pisses me off

[newterp]

Keith.

that is all. defy more excited about his arrival than my kids birthday. which is reasonable i think.

[Dundalis]

I think you're getting a bit carried away here.  Yes he has the potential to be a very good player, but to exceed gerrard?  C'mon now lets be realistic here. Gerrard in his prime could play in various positions and still be world class.  We won't see another gerrard in our lifetime IMO.  Its unafair on Keita to be hyping him up to such a level.  Many players look good in other leagues but fail to make it here.  I'm not saying he won't, but lets not put too much expectation on the player.

Keita could probably play any position bar keeper and be world class. His all round skillset is that ridiculous. He's 22, with a single seasons experience in a top European league, so he still has things to work on refinement wise. But in terms of pure skill level, I can't think of a thing he's not better than Gerrard at, bar perhaps long range shooting and hollywood balls. He's miles ahead as a dribbler, with his short touch passing and his tactical intelligence especially defensively. Now having the mental fortitude to put it together and deliver game in game out for a top side while avoiding serious injuries is what is going to decide it and that is certainly no guarantee. But for me he has a higher ceiling potential wise than Gerrard (i.e. best CM in the world potential).

You can say all you want about players looking good in other leagues and failing to make it, but being able to watch him play, and have critics and opposition managers say things about him you rarely hear about any player add up.

[HumanRed]

Very worried this lad is going to get injured. I was watching some clips of him on YT, he runs at defenders with pace at the heart of defences. The German league will have a few rough defenders and defenders are going to mistime tackles or just try to take him out.

If Leipzig collapse (out of the CL and the domestic title)  by January we may as well ask them to bring the signing forward. Slip them an extra 10m and send Grujic or Woodburb on loan to them for the rest of the season to get Keira in Jan. I know he will be CL tied but he could help get us a FA Cup or PL title.

Here Klopp and his team need to keep an eye on developments over in Germany.

[Phil M]

The German league will have a few rough defenders and defenders are going to mistime tackles or just try to take him out.

He seemed to manage just fine last season with that.

[BabuYagu]

Very worried this lad is going to get injured. I was watching some clips of him on YT, he runs at defenders with pace at the heart of defences. The German league will have a few rough defenders and defenders are going to mistime tackles or just try to take him out.

If Leipzig collapse (out of the CL and the domestic title)  by January we may as well ask them to bring the signing forward. Slip them an extra 10m and send Grujic or Woodburb on loan to them for the rest of the season to get Keira in Jan. I know he will be CL tied but he could help get us a FA Cup or PL title.

Here Klopp and his team need to keep an eye on developments over in Germany.

I'm not worried. His body has build up resistances as a kid to these things. Look at the rock hard lumpy pitches he played on as a kid.

[Dim Glas]

Very worried this lad is going to get injured. I was watching some clips of him on YT, he runs at defenders with pace at the heart of defences. The German league will have a few rough defenders and defenders are going to mistime tackles or just try to take him out.

If Leipzig collapse (out of the CL and the domestic title)  by January we may as well ask them to bring the signing forward. Slip them an extra 10m and send Grujic or Woodburb on loan to them for the rest of the season to get Keira in Jan. I know he will be CL tied but he could help get us a FA Cup or PL title.

Here Klopp and his team need to keep an eye on developments over in Germany.

All leagues have rough defenders, in fact, I'd say the premiership is probably the worst for it, loads of cloggers, especially with the pace of the game.

He'll be there all season. For Leipzig to collapse out of the European spots before January is pretty much impossible, unless they go on one amazing losing streak - like lose about 8 games before Christmas!

Like all players, they risk injury every day, not much you can do about it. He's a tough lad though.

[Glen C]

Keita could probably play any position bar keeper and be world class. His all round skillset is that ridiculous. He's 22, with a single seasons experience in a top European league, so he still has things to work on refinement wise. But in terms of pure skill level, I can't think of a thing he's not better than Gerrard at, bar perhaps long range shooting and hollywood balls. He's miles ahead as a dribbler, with his short touch passing and his tactical intelligence especially defensively. Now having the mental fortitude to put it together and deliver game in game out for a top side while avoiding serious injuries is what is going to decide it and that is certainly no guarantee. But for me he has a higher ceiling potential wise than Gerrard (i.e. best CM in the world potential).

You can say all you want about players looking good in other leagues and failing to make it, but being able to watch him play, and have critics and opposition managers say things about him you rarely hear about any player add up.

Not sure how you can make that statement of him playing any position.  As far as i know (and if im wrong i stand corrected) he's only played in the middle.  It doesn't mean he can play any position and be world class.  Gerrard has played and excelled at CM, RB, LB, LM, RM and as a number 10.  His never say die attitude saved us many times. Im not saying Keita doesn't have world class potential.  But there's world class potential and then there's being better than gerrard.  Since we've been linked with him i've been watching him a few times and i'm proper excited as he looks an amazing talent who will suit our system well.  But better than gerrard?  Nah i just don't see it.

[Glen C]

I'm not worried. His body has build up resistances as a kid to these things. Look at the rock hard lumpy pitches he played on as a kid.

Im more worried about his health.  I know they said it was a one off, but him collapsing on the pitch was scary.

[BabuYagu]

Not sure how you can make that statement of him playing any position.  As far as i know (and if im wrong i stand corrected) he's only played in the middle.  It doesn't mean he can play any position and be world class.  Gerrard has played and excelled at CM, RB, LB, LM, RM and as a number 10.  His never say die attitude saved us many times. Im not saying Keita doesn't have world class potential.  But there's world class potential and then there's being better than gerrard.  Since we've been linked with him i've been watching him a few times and i'm proper excited as he looks an amazing talent who will suit our system well.  But better than gerrard?  Nah i just don't see it.

He's played #6,#8,#10 and as a winger in their system so far.

When people say that though, they simply mean they have the tactical intelligence to play any role on the pitch. As a #6 for example, especially in the system they play, you end up at fullback a lot of the time in transitions. For this reason most Brazilian fullbacks have play as #6 and vice versa in their youth.

And nobody is saying he is better than Gerrard now, or will be in future but there is an argument he has the potential to hit or pass that level, which is exciting. Doesn't mean he will of course. If you look at pre-Rafa Gerrard for example, he was a good player but I wouldn't say world class. Rafa transformed him and his production sky rocketed once Rafa could add some tactical intelligence to his game on top of the technical and physical gifts he had.

I would argue that 22 Keita looks a better player than 22 Gerrard did for sure. But then that's because Keita's all round game is at a very high level whereas Gerrard hadn't had his tactical game worked on at that point. Therefore at 22 Gerrard had a lot of space to improve his weakest areas of his game.

[Red Beret]

He could join us tomorrow and get injured against City.  He could fall down the stairs.  He could drop an iron on his foot.  People need to chill out.

[Dim Glas]

RB Leipzig are in action tomorrow, they are away to HSV, the game starts at 7.30pm uk time.

In the UK I believe it is on BT Sport.  For those in the USA, it's live on Fox Sports 2.

Come along to the Bundesliga thread

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=322416.0

I know the very helpful Jason will be along with streaming links!

[ScubaSteve]

RB Leipzig are in action tomorrow, they are away to HSV, the game starts at 7.30pm uk time.

In the UK I believe it is on BT Sport.  For those in the USA, it's live on Fox Sports 2.

Come along to the Bundesliga thread

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=322416.0

I know the very helpful Jason will be along with streaming links!

I've not actually seen him play yet so I'll have to watch that!

[jillcwhomever]

I've not actually seen him play yet so I'll have to watch that!

You will be in for a nice surprise then. 

One of my favourite threads now, keep these videos coming everyone.

[Keita Success]

Not a big fan of the Gerrard comparisons. A lot of pressure comparing him to our best ever captain.

[macca007]

Not a big fan of the Gerrard comparisons. A lot of pressure comparing him to our best ever captain.

I know Gerrard lauded as the best midfielder around, by the likes of Zidane.  Put in the all time best premier league 11, scored in most major finals, taking games by the scruff of the neck regularly and debated as our best player of all time along with Kenny.

Kieta is 22 and played for 2 red bull clubs.  Bar the fact he's a different type of player to Gerrard he's got a long long way to be mentioned even alongside Gerrard whatever potential his stats may point at

[ToneLa]

Not a big fan of the Gerrard comparisons. A lot of pressure comparing him to our best ever captain.

I never like these, whether it's for Hendo, Can or anyone else.

Gerrard was a once in a generation talent and it's just a distorted way of comparing players. You can be a good musician without being Bach!

[newterp]

Keith is playing tomorrow? Im all over this 

[Fiasco]

Comparisons with Gerrard are rather laughable. Not because he doesn't have the potential to be as good but it does nothing to help the player. If you say it enough times you'll get a familiarity with it, and it will be a case of 'We've got a player signing next summer who is as good as Gerrard.'


Say it out loud. It is a very bold statement. People love Suarez, but he didn't win a thing with us. Gerrard is the best player I've ever seen play for Liverpool and he's a tad underrated by our own fans. Take away the slip jibes but even United fans and even Evertonians know how good he was. People undersell him on here. He was fucking outstanding, a world class, once in a generation player. If Naby can be half as good as Gerrard was for us then I'll be very, very happy.