Topic: Gay Footballers

[Yorkykopite]

Is right, Rhi. Sad that this thread has gone exactly the way I thought it would.

Odd comment. Most people seem to be critical of Gueye's actions and are supporting gay rights.

[Snail]

Odd comment. Most people seem to be critical of Gueye's actions and are supporting gay rights.

And obviously I wasn't referring to those people

[El Lobo]

Being able to drink alcohol is a human right, even if it's not one you personally believe is important. Being able to express yourself sexually is something people should be able to do however they want as long as it isn't impinging on the rights of others - the same as religion. Both are hugely important parts of people's lives and as a society we should be open to both and not permit discrimination against either.

And sexuality is completely different to race by the way. One is something you are, the other is something you feel. Unless you've discovered the gay gene and haven't told anyone.

[thejbs]

Still trying to get my head around drinking alcohol being a human right.

[AndyMuller]

That is a pretty wild one by Sheer I must say.

[gazzalfc]

Being able to drink alcohol is a human right, even if it's not one you personally believe is important. Being able to express yourself sexually is something people should be able to do however they want as long as it isn't impinging on the rights of others - the same as religion. Both are hugely important parts of people's lives and as a society we should be open to both and not permit discrimination against either.

And sexuality is completely different to race by the way. One is something you are, the other is something you feel. Unless you've discovered the gay gene and haven't told anyone.

Holy shit?!?

I mean really.....

[Barneylfc∗]

Being able to drink alcohol is a human right, even if it's not one you personally believe is important. Being able to express yourself sexually is something people should be able to do however they want as long as it isn't impinging on the rights of others - the same as religion. Both are hugely important parts of people's lives and as a society we should be open to both and not permit discrimination against either.

And sexuality is completely different to race by the way. One is something you are, the other is something you feel. Unless you've discovered the gay gene and haven't told anyone.

Holy fuck 

[lobsterboy]

Reads like Sheer thinks gay people can just choose not to "feel" gay, can ignore those "feelings"?
All those people killed, persecuted and jailed for being gay should just have chosen not to "feel" gay and they would have been ok.
All the gay people I know, including my sibling, didn't choose to "feel" gay. They didn't just decide to be gay. They are gay. They always were.

I'll tell you what is a choice though.
Choosing to believe in the ramblings of iron age goat herders, wizards and warlords and choosing to support or turn a blind eye to the barbarism, discrimination and intolerance performed in name of what amounts to nothing more than myths and legends.

[Elzar]

Sad how the subject of this thread has changed in less than a week. Lets hope going forward we are discussing more Jake's than Gueye's.

[lobsterboy]

Sad how the subject of this thread has changed in less than a week. Lets hope going forward we are discussing more Jake's than Gueye's.

Just shows how widespread and ingrained the discrimination over sexuality remains.

[rafathegaffa83]

Idrissa Gueye with a gambling sponsor on his shirt:


Idrissa Gueye with an alcohol sponsor on his shirt:


But a rainbow?! Oh no, that will not do...

The respecting someone's religion thing doesn't stack up if they pick and choose which bits to take a stand on, and in choosing to take a stand on this and only this, he is showing himself to be a homophobe and a bigot.

Absolutely.

[WillG.LFC]

It beggars belief that someone who claims to have a LGBTQ+ child would argue otherwise.

To be fair I don't think he is arguing otherwise just pointing out we don't know for definite the motives. Even if it does seem pretty obvious.

However I don't see why we focus on the likes of Gueye that much. It's unlikely their opinions will be changed, we need to focus on the positive stories like this young Blackpool player and the next generation of kids. If this stance keeps improving each generation we get to where we need to be.

[El Lobo]

Reads like Sheer thinks gay people can just choose not to "feel" gay, can ignore those "feelings"?
All those people killed, persecuted and jailed for being gay should just have chosen not to "feel" gay and they would have been ok.
All the gay people I know, including my sibling, didn't choose to "feel" gay. They didn't just decide to be gay. They are gay. They always were.

I'll tell you what is a choice though.
Choosing to believe in the ramblings of iron age goat herders, wizards and warlords and choosing to support or turn a blind eye to the barbarism, discrimination and intolerance performed in name of what amounts to nothing more than myths and legends.

Thats certainly how it comes across, really not great for an 'established' Rawkite.

[Son of Spion]

...And sexuality is completely different to race by the way. One is something you are, the other is something you feel. Unless you've discovered the gay gene and haven't told anyone.

Both are something you are.

Assuming you are heterosexual, is your heterosexuality something you are, or just something you feel?

I know my own sexuality is absolutely me. It's who and what I am. It's not just something I feel.

[Son of Spion]

To be fair I don't think he is arguing otherwise just pointing out we don't know for definite the motives. Even if it does seem pretty obvious.

However I don't see why we focus on the likes of Gueye that much. It's unlikely their opinions will be changed, we need to focus on the positive stories like this young Blackpool player and the next generation of kids. If this stance keeps improving each generation we get to where we need to be.

I'd say the reason for that is it's because of people like Gueye that people like Jake Daniels have felt compelled to hide away. It's people like Gueye who are the problem. It's they who need addressing.

[G Richards]

Idrissa Gueye with a gambling sponsor on his shirt:


Idrissa Gueye with an alcohol sponsor on his shirt:


But a rainbow?! Oh no, that will not do...

The respecting someone's religion thing doesn't stack up if they pick and choose which bits to take a stand on, and in choosing to take a stand on this and only this, he is showing himself to be a homophobe and a bigot.

It beggars belief that someone who claims to have a LGBTQ+ child would argue otherwise.

I’m not sure what you think I am arguing.

For the sake of clarity:

1. I support LGBT rights
2. The Qatar government is abhorrent on this issue
3. Its support for PSG is a massive disconnect - sort your shit out at home instead of doling out, in comparison to what happens in Qatar, empty platitudes around Europe on LGBT rights
4. The Senegalese government is abhorrent on this issue
5. The British government has been abhorrent on this issue, with some disgraceful things happening in living memory e.g. Alan Turing
6. Other countries in the world will continue to evolve their laws on LGBT rights, just as the UK has

Observing everyone piling in on Gueye’s motive and rationale - when to my knowledge he has not said anything? - seemed to me like like we are filling in the blanks too easily, and it violates my sense of fair play and desire to want to understand someone.

Maybe he is a bigot and a homophobe, and that’s all that needs to be said about him. Or maybe there are family, cultural, and religious issues in play for him. 

On the religious part, if he is objecting on religious grounds - has he said that? - then at that point, yes, you have identified some inconsistencies between what he has been willing to wear over the years, and what his religion teaches. 

One final comment, and it is the ‘claims to’ stuff with regard to having an LGBTQ child. An issue is being discussed and you are veering into ad hominem territory. I’m not sure on the forum rules on that, but please play the ball and not the man.

It would be easy to have a discussion where everyone said the same thing. Boo. Twat. Bigot. Hateful. Grrrr. Idrissa Gueye. That adds nothing to discussion, and at that point I haven’t tried to understand the man either.

[Barneylfc∗]

I’m not sure what you think I am arguing.

For the sake of clarity:

1. I support LGBT rights
2. The Qatar government is abhorrent on this issue
3. Its support for PSG is a massive disconnect - sort your shit out at home instead of doling out, in comparison to what happens in Qatar, empty platitudes around Europe on LGBT rights
4. The Senegalese government is abhorrent on this issue
5. The British government has been abhorrent on this issue, with some disgraceful things happening in living memory e.g. Alan Turing
6. Other countries in the world will continue to evolve their laws on LGBT rights, just as the UK has

Observing everyone piling in on Gueye’s motive and rationale - when to my knowledge he has not said anything? - seemed to me like like we are filling in the blanks too easily, and it violates my sense of fair play and desire to want to understand someone.

Maybe he is a bigot and a homophobe, and that’s all that needs to be said about him. Or maybe there are family, cultural, and religious issues in play for him. 

On the religious part, if he is objecting on religious grounds - has he said that? - then at that point, yes, you have identified some inconsistencies between what he has been willing to wear over the years, and what his religion teaches. 

One final comment, and it is the ‘claims to’ stuff with regard to having an LGBTQ child. An issue is being discussed and you are veering into ad hominem territory. I’m not sure on the forum rules on that, but please play the ball and not the man.

It would be easy to have a discussion where everyone said the same thing. Boo. Twat. Bigot. Hateful. Grrrr. Idrissa Gueye. That adds nothing to discussion, and at that point I haven’t tried to understand the man either.

There are instances when actions speak louder than words. For me, this is one of them.

If Gueye should be afforded the right to hold his view, then I should be afforded the right to believe he is a c*nt.

Whenever a gay footballer is talked about, there are always people saying about them getting dogs abuse from the Neanderthals in the stands. Maybe we should be looking at the Neanderthals in the dressing room first.

[WillG.LFC]

I'd say the reason for that is it's because of people like Gueye that people like Jake Daniels have felt compelled to hide away. It's people like Gueye who are the problem. It's they who need addressing.

That's why I feel they no longer need attention/platform. If we praise those young players coming out then the environment will encourage more no doubt. Anyway we are moving the right way, ignore those that would rather remain in history

[the 92A]

For years gay male professional footballers have been fearful and not confident to speak openly, matter of factually, about who they are, their sexuality, something straight people talk about all the time with absolutely no fear,  every time someone talks about the wife, who someone is going out with, they have to hide, make excuses, they wonder what it will mean for their career, what papers like the Sun will do with the story, do they want all the attention of being an openly gay footballer, what about potential abuse from crowds, can they take that, what will it mean for their careers, will it effect their friendships, their relationships within the dressing room, do they always want to be the person who is seen as different and after making that calculation in a society that has improved but still has a long way to go, they have decided on balance it's not worth it, better to hide who they are, have to tell lies, not being themselves and that has a massive effect and comes at an enormous cost to how they feel their self worth, their mental health. They are the ones suffering in all this not the likes of Gueye.


I believe in fairness and spent many hours arguing with a Nigerian friend who genuinely thought there were no gay people in Africa because he'd never met any in all his life, it was a far harder argument than, that might be because in Northern Nigeria you can be executed for being gay but taking into account all the religious and cultural norms he'd been brought up with, like Gueye, pointing out he was wrong doesn't make him by any stretch of the imagination the victims of the situation.


Society is changing for the better on this issue, I watched two gay lads in my school in Liverpool in the seventies lives being made hell, they couldn't go out in the yard or eat at dinnertime, they'd be encircled by a mob and drowned in spit and then kicked and beaten up by the people who'd caught them, things have changed to the point young Jake feels confident enough to not have to hide, to be himself but there is also a long way to go before your sexual orientation is accepted without prejudice and footballl still has a long way to go.

[thejbs]

Observing everyone piling in on Gueye’s motive and rationale - when to my knowledge he has not said anything? - seemed to me like like we are filling in the blanks too easily, and it violates my sense of fair play and desire to want to understand someone.

Maybe he is a bigot and a homophobe, and that’s all that needs to be said about him. Or maybe there are family, cultural, and religious issues in play for him. 

For two years in a row he has made himself unavailable to wear a rainbow shirt which promotes ending homophobia. What blanks are left to fill in? What are we missing here? 

And even if there are family, cultural or religious issues in play, he is still a bigot and homophobe. None of those things excuse homophobia or a belief that gay people do not deserve equality.

And as I said before, as a parent of a gay child, you should understand that the fight against homophobia and for equality is not over when a country grants equal rights to gay people. The french campaign (just like UK equivalents) is about getting rid of homophobia rather than granting them any particular rights under law (as in law, they are equal).

[G Richards]

Please don't patronize me with regard to what I should and should not understand! Of course I understand that the fight for equality is not over simply due to rights granted in law. In my house that battle is personal and not theoretical.

Gueye may well be a homophobe and a bigot. I would have liked to hear what he has to say on the matter. Bringing it closer to home, as a passionate Liverpool fan I would be even more interested in what Sadio Mane thinks, as both a Muslim and a Senegalese citizen. Religious Africans are very socially conservative on this sort of stuff, and I suspect Sadio's views might be closer to Gueye's than many would be comfortable with, but that is speculative on my part.

While I'm thinking of Mane, I wonder if he has spoken out against LGBT laws in his homeland? If not, why not? Is his silence on the matter to be interpreted as his support? Are we going to hold him to a standard that we expect him to play on the wing, play through the middle, AND speak up on laws in his homeland that are out of sync with the west? Are we OK with the President of Senegal, Macky Sall, getting some very useful PR alongside Mane off the back of the recent AFCON victory, when at that point he was widely known to be in favor of criminalizing homosexuality? 

We should be careful in demanding that our footballers be more than footballers. Yes, I want them all to be good people, and under Klopp I know they are, but we have to be aware that different parts of the world are coming at certain issues from various perspectives.

It's easy to stick the boot in on Idrissa Gueye. When we do that, we should at least be aware that he is a product of his environment. If the fruit is unacceptable, I can keep saying that until I am blue in the face, as though I am making a good point, or I can ask what can be done to produce better fruit.

I am hopeful that in time places like Senegal will change. It wasn't so long ago that the British government was criminalizing and chemically castrating one its own citizens, who as it happens made more of a contribution to this world than most others throughout history. It has barely been five minutes since we started to get our own house in order, so I'd like to allow other nations the opportunity to get there too. Bumping up against the mores and norms in the west will hopefully expedite that process.

[Yorkykopite]

I think you make some fair points.

[jepovic]

Nobody wants to force Gueye to change opinions, but hes getting paid millions to represent a club and that comes with a lot of obligations. He doesnt have to play football, he can go home. You can be vegetarian working at McD, but then you cant refuse to serve burgers

[Only Me]

Should stay focused on the fact that what the young lad from Blackpool is doing is far more worthy of attention than this cowardly fucking blert and his sad little cohort of like minded dickheads.

But I do find it somewhat sickening that a lot of the outrage and stick that this Gueye fella is getting will be from people who will still be very glad to watch the next world cup taking place in the bastion of LGBTQ+ and other human rights that is fucking Qatar.

If footy was serious about the issue they'd fuck the blood soaked oil states right off until they weren't run by despotic murdering c*nts on a sports washing mission.

But money talks far more loudly than anyone in a position of authority. Shithouses the lot of them.

Have a fucking word with yourself if you watch one minute of the shite that will be the Qatar World Cup.

[Redbonnie]

I’m not sure what you think I am arguing.

For the sake of clarity:

1. I support LGBT rights
2. The Qatar government is abhorrent on this issue
3. Its support for PSG is a massive disconnect - sort your shit out at home instead of doling out, in comparison to what happens in Qatar, empty platitudes around Europe on LGBT rights
4. The Senegalese government is abhorrent on this issue
5. The British government has been abhorrent on this issue, with some disgraceful things happening in living memory e.g. Alan Turing
6. Other countries in the world will continue to evolve their laws on LGBT rights, just as the UK has

Observing everyone piling in on Gueye’s motive and rationale - when to my knowledge he has not said anything? - seemed to me like like we are filling in the blanks too easily, and it violates my sense of fair play and desire to want to understand someone.

Maybe he is a bigot and a homophobe, and that’s all that needs to be said about him. Or maybe there are family, cultural, and religious issues in play for him. 

On the religious part, if he is objecting on religious grounds - has he said that? - then at that point, yes, you have identified some inconsistencies between what he has been willing to wear over the years, and what his religion teaches. 

One final comment, and it is the ‘claims to’ stuff with regard to having an LGBTQ child. An issue is being discussed and you are veering into ad hominem territory. I’m not sure on the forum rules on that, but please play the ball and not the man.

It would be easy to have a discussion where everyone said the same thing. Boo. Twat. Bigot. Hateful. Grrrr. Idrissa Gueye. That adds nothing to discussion, and at that point I haven’t tried to understand the man either.

I absolutely do not believe you have a lesbian ( female homosexual) or gay ( male homosexual) child of your own blood. Am I right?  I am sure as such an advocate of fair play and free speech you have no problem with me saying that.

[thejbs]

If Sadio Mane refused to wear a rainbow that was designed to combat homophobia, I would call him a bigot. Why should it make a difference if he plays for us? But Mane hasn’t done that, though, has he?

[G Richards]

I absolutely do not believe you have a lesbian ( female homosexual) or gay ( male homosexual) child of your own blood. Am I right?  I am sure as such an advocate of fair play and free speech you have no problem with me saying that.

No you are completely wrong. I have a gay daughter.

But to be honest it’s irrelevant to me what you believe.

Edit:
And you are being deliberately antagonistic, so I can only assume you are a cock. Or at least, not able to follow the discussion.

[Peabee]

Ah, the old religious or cultural or family excuses for being a bigot. Reminds me of “it was a different time back then” when I know 100% my Nan and Grandad, both born in the 1920s in catholic families, were neither homophobic or bigoted in any way.

Criticising bigots isn’t the same as removing their freedom of speech. Freedom of speech essentially means you won’t be arrested or punished by your government for your views. It doesn’t mean there aren’t consequences, which includes criticism or “cancelling” by the public. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean you should just be able to say what you want, however bigoted or damaging to minorities it is, and no-one will pull you up on it.

Piling on Gueye for his views is fair game.

Would we accept racism from footballers? Or is homophobia okay because “religion” etc?.

[Eternalsungod]

I absolutely do not believe you have a lesbian ( female homosexual) or gay ( male homosexual) child of your own blood. Am I right?  I am sure as such an advocate of fair play and free speech you have no problem with me saying that.

I think you have misunderstood free speech somewhat. He can have problems with you saying that, while still defending your rights to say it. That is not a contradiction. Also he would be well within his rights to feel annoyed or angry, since you are basically calling him a liar. Nonetheless, I believe G Richards to have the most nuanced view in this discussion, and he will probably cope well with your provocation.

(ah...he has already answered...I'll post it anyway)

[Johnny Foreigner]

I think you make some fair points.

Credits for that... I was about to barge in being an reformed bigot etc..  But I do live in an country that is probably known as one of the most advanced and liberated countries in the world - it wasnt that long ago that we lobotimized people; took their children and tried to cure gay people.. takes time to change these issues but credits to RAWK and their moderators for always allowing a good discussion but still being tough on racism/homophopia etc

[G Richards]

Gueye is rightly being pulled up for his views. By almost everyone who has spoken on the matter. (It would be better if he actually said something, or even gave an interview to outline his stance, but obviously wanting to sit out the game and not wear the shirt is, in its way, saying something by his action).

I disagree with him, for sure, but his viewpoint is in keeping with the law of the land in his country of origin, as well as his religion, and presumably the culture he comes from too, so as such is hardly shocking. He straddles two worlds, and the one hasn’t caught up with the other yet, but in time it will.

[G Richards]

Nobody wants to force Gueye to change opinions, but hes getting paid millions to represent a club and that comes with a lot of obligations. He doesnt have to play football, he can go home. You can be vegetarian working at McD, but then you cant refuse to serve burgers

I have some sympathy with this viewpoint, especially given the sums of money he is paid. It would be interesting to know if the contract he signed included a specific clause saying that he had to promote and support LGBT rights. My best guess is it didn’t.

If it did, then he is breaking his contract and at that point he is not such an important employee to them so I would imagine they would sack him. So presumably he is not in breach of contract.

[G Richards]

Yes, thanks to moderators for allowing conversation.

I’ve probably said enough so I will back out of this one now! Just didn’t want to do the usual, “Ooh, that Gueye. What a bigot and homophobe.” It is a straightforward point and all, but doesn’t really advance any understanding or delve into the issue.

[bravoco]

^ Appreciate your contributions - they have prompted some better discussion than you often find online.

I agree that we need to be careful with the ethical standards we demand of professional footballers, and would be fascinated to see what shape this discussion took were it one of ours who was in the firing line - Mane, or possibly one of our Brazilian with close connections to conservative Christian churches and their bs. 

Having said that, I am of the view that Gueye has been shown to be hypocritical at best (thanks Rhi) and his stance is being used by the Senegalese government to double down on some horrible attitudes and policies.

[boots]

His refusal was a statement. Therefore he is open to criticism. He made it a point. No-one else did. He did.

Certainly, we need to be careful with ethical standards RE players, but if you make a statement however that statement was made, then you are rightly open to debate and maybe criticism.

He is a hypocrit and a bigot. Let him look my neice and nephew in the eye and tell them they have no right to exist. Let him tell the victims of the nail bomber they have no right to exist. No fuck him, fuck the understanding and fuck his religion.

If it was one of ours, I'd say the same.

[El Lobo]

I have some sympathy with this viewpoint, especially given the sums of money he is paid. It would be interesting to know if the contract he signed included a specific clause saying that he had to promote and support LGBT rights. My best guess is it didn’t.

If it did, then he is breaking his contract and at that point he is not such an important employee to them so I would imagine they would sack him. So presumably he is not in breach of contract.

He doesn't have to support and promote LGBT rights. He had to wear his normal football shirt with an ever so slightly different design, say nothing, promote nothing, praise nothing, just play football exactly as he usually does and then if he really wanted to he could have a ceremony in his own house burning the shirt and dancing around it wearing his sisters skin. There were another 399 players involved in having a rainbow number on the back of his shirt that weekend (heaven forbid) and he's the only one who felt like he needed to make that statement. So fuck him.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I have some sympathy with this viewpoint, especially given the sums of money he is paid. It would be interesting to know if the contract he signed included a specific clause saying that he had to promote and support LGBT rights. My best guess is it didn’t.

If it did, then he is breaking his contract and at that point he is not such an important employee to them so I would imagine they would sack him. So presumably he is not in breach of contract.

Heres where you are wrong again.  The day isnt about promoting homosexuality, its Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia.  Look it up.

[Yorkykopite]

Heres where you are wrong again.  The day isnt about promoting homosexuality, its Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia.  Look it up.

He didn't actually say it was about "promoting homosexuality". That's your own spin. He said, quite clearly, it was about "promoting...LGBT rights". That's a very different thing - often deliberately confused by conservatives and reactionaries who want to imply that schools etc are turning children into homosexuals. 

I have little to no sympathy with Gueye. I don't care whether he's motivated by religion or not. He is effectively making a stand against the human rights of a minority group. That his own country has a backward penal code that makes their sexuality a capital crime is not an excuse for his own stand. In my view it makes it worse. 

But I think you should read what the poster G Richards is actually saying before you pile in like that. 

[Sheer Magnetism]

He is a hypocrit and a bigot. Let him look my neice and nephew in the eye and tell them they have no right to exist. Let him tell the victims of the nail bomber they have no right to exist. No fuck him, fuck the understanding and fuck his religion.

Think you're making a bit of a leap here, boots.

[Kenny's Jacket]

He didn't actually say it was about "promoting homosexuality". That's your own spin. He said, quite clearly, it was about "promoting...LGBT rights". That's a very different thing - often deliberately confused by conservatives and reactionaries who want to imply that schools etc are turning children into homosexuals. 

I have little to no sympathy with Gueye. I don't care whether he's motivated by religion or not. He is effectively making a stand against the human rights of a minority group. That his own country has a backward penal code that makes their sexuality a capital crime is not an excuse for his own stand. In my view it makes it worse. 

But I think you should read what the poster G Richards is actually saying before you pile in like that.

Like I said hes not being asked to celebrate/promote homosexuality, just take a stand against bigotry.

I also believe he is allowed to hold it! (If his view is simply not wanting to support or celebrate the LGBT community).

is religion and the law of the land of his home country appear to be at odds with what he is being forced to promote and celebrate in France. 

As far as I can tell he just doesn’t want to be forced into celebrating or promoting something he disagrees with. 

So Richards did effectively say that. 
Sorry Yorkie, maybe you are the one who needs to go through his posts

he is also at odds with the religion card too

in his country of origin, as well as his religion, and presumably the culture he comes from too, so as such is hardly shocking. He straddles two worlds, and the one hasn’t caught up with the other yet, but in time it will.