Author Topic: How to beat the parked bus  (Read 18630 times)

Offline DefJack

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2017, 08:10:42 am »
Breaking the Horseshoe: Why Liverpool struggle against low blocks, and how things turned around against Spurs.

It's been strange at times to watch this Liverpool side, in games where the opposition come to win, they invariably lose, usually embarrassingly. However in games where teams come to claim a solitary point, grinding out a 0-0 draw, they almost invariably go home with all three. So why in this modern age of football, where dictating possession is considered king, and the old ways of physical numbers nines are considered out-dated, why does the team that plays to control the game seem to end up losing?

Now this isn't a Liverpool only issue, Barcelona have faced it, famously against Mourinho, and perhaps even more famously lost to Celtic despite having 89% possession, Dortmund faced it under Klopp at times, and plenty of other top sides who play possession football have faced it, so why is it so effective and so hard to counter? How can a team have 11% of the ball, cede 65% of the territory and still end up winning?

Well at the most basic level, if you don't concede you don't lose, right? It certainly doesn't mean you'll win, but scoring 1 goal is far easier than scoring 3, and 90 minutes is a long time to do it in. So the system that has become so popular over the last few years only really has one idea in mind, don't ever concede.

So how do you ensure you don't concede?



According to shot data, that green zone accounts for the majority of goals scored, (It should include the six yard box, I cba to re-draw it) probably accounting for around 75% of all goals scored, and the creative zones; the flanks, central area 18-36 yards, combined with the scoring zone account for almost all the assist locations. So if you never allow your opponent to establish (ball under control, head up, can see the play, not under significant pressure) in those zones, chances are they are unlikely to ever score. In fact, shots outside of the box or from tight angles have an approximate 2-3% conversion rate. We've seen plenty of times this season, how when we are limited to shots outside the box, we can have 30+ shots and never score, and importantly, we were never likely too.

So how do teams go about achieving this?

Simply put, they sit deep, pack the central zones with players, and use their wide players to deny access to the wings.



My second crude diagram (over 9000 hours in MSPaint 1.0) shows the structure that these teams have used to achieve this, essentially a 6-3-1 in defence, the key red central area contains 7 of their players, essentially 4 centre halves within the width of the penalty box, 3 defensive midfielders, their wide player marks the full back, denying any chance of a 2 vs 1 overlap, and there is so little space between the back line and the goalie that balls in behind, in particular in central areas, have to be incredibly accurate to be successful. It actually brings to mind the Roman Testudo, the box of shields absorbing and deflecting incoming arrow fire, protecting the squishy bits inside of it.

Just looking at the pitch, where is all the space? There is practically none in their half, but in our half? Of course this is always the case, when the opposition get the ball you drop off to fill that space, but that diagram makes it very easy to see how one tackle, one missed pass, and suddenly their wide players can explode into that space, suddenly it's a 3 vs 2 in our half. Now this may not happen often, but you don't need very many of those situations to score, as we've learned to our peril. In fact Wolves second goal was almost the textbook example of what the defending team want to achieve.

The Horseshoe




As a kid I was taught never to hang a horseshoe upside down, as it would bring bad luck to the house, and when I look at the passing structure we follow when teams play this system, I can't help but see that upturned horseshoe ruining our January.

We've all seen this a million times, working the ball side to side, struggling to get into the center, with our only wide outlets being the fullbacks. Now having the ball in these areas isn't a problem, the problem is that it's very hard to deviate from it. Once that testudo formation has formed, pulling players out of it is extremely difficult, and the only option that remains is the safe pass.

In fact I'd say it's so hard to create offensive opportunities out of this structure, that we should avoid voluntarily entering this structure when we are genuinely trying to score. There are too many players trying to operate in too little space, it's too slow, it's so predictable and it's nearly impossible to get a player established in those key areas from the first diagram.

Why were we so much better vs Spurs?

Well...they didn't really force us into this structure...

However there were signs that Klopp has learned and was trying to make changes.



This diagram quite aptly shows the difference between the two games, you can see in the Hull match how we never got into those key central areas, Firmino was crowded out, and all the passing links to central areas are weak, the ball spent the whole match with our defence and deep midfielders.

Then the Spurs match is like looking at a whole different 11, we never even attempted to establish a Horseshoe pattern, we got our attackers on the ball in those key central areas, and as a result had better shots in better areas, and gave ourselves a much better chance of winning the game.

But how do we counter the Low Block?

Teams are going to keep playing the 6-4-1 against us, so we are going to need a way to face it , on the first diagram I highlighted how I think we can increase our chances, I highlighted the FB vs Winger situation and the fact that our central players are likely to get time on the ball, in my opinion our best bet in this structure is for the central players to quickly hit balls to the wing backs, either to isolate them 1 vs 1 for a take on, or get them in behind directly. Our problem is that while Barca had Xavi, Dani Alves and Jordi Alba for this, we have Henderson, Milner and Clyne. 

Overall we need to be more direct, utilise the channels more, move the ball quicker, and generally take more risks in an attacking sense, rather than sitting in the holding pattern, waiting for a landing clearance that likely will never come, before running out of fuel and plummeting to an actually not fiery but just as deadly death.

We need to prevent opposition teams forming their testudo, and when they have we need to have a better sense as a team as to when to collectively increase the tempo.

Ultimately, most goals are scored withing 3-5 passes for a reason, now I don't believe that this means we should hit long balls every chance we get, but I think as a team when we have the ball, we need to understand that a slow 30 pass move is unlikely to result in a goal, and when in possession we should look to spring 3-5 pass attacks, dynamically increasing the tempo as a team.






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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2017, 08:17:48 am »
A lot of pace to get in behind and stretch teams, take more advantage of set plays to open the scoring etc. A number 9 who can score out of nothing (but unlike Sturridge fits the system).

Take Mane out and we're too slow and static and easy to stifle.
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Offline ArcticRed

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2017, 08:34:15 am »
Precision and pace in our passing would be a good place to start, I reckon. We seem to move the ball way too slow in our build-up play against the parked bus, giving them time to not just park the it, but build a wall around it as well.
Would also be nice to see more of an ability to whip our crosses, freekicks and corners in. More often than not they're lofted in so losely it makes it easy for a packed defence to clear. A ball whipped in with speed and precision will always be more challenging for the defence to deal with (getting it past the first defender would of course be key).
Oh, and I would love to see us be much more of a threat from outside the box, in order to force packed defences to push out every now and then. At the moment, they can just keep a compact shape as there's no threat whatsoever.

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2017, 08:35:15 am »
Excellent post DefJack. Your horseshoe formation reminds me of handball, but in handball the way through is with brute force.

Some crisper passing from Henderson wouldn't go amiss. And it also explains why we turn so turgid with Can and Henderson in midfield, slow safety passess and the occasional long switch do not cut it.
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Offline jwill2127

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2017, 09:12:01 am »
I watched a bit of the Chelsea game v Burnley, the difference is that their players all run with the ball. we tend to just pass it from almost a standing position. If you run at people they have to commit. Can & Hendo together dont allow that.
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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2017, 09:47:00 am »
I think our complete lack of threat at set pieces over the last few seasons is also key. Against the park the bus teams, we invariably have a lot of corners and a couple of free kicks around the box. We need to make these opportunites count, as clear chances from open play can be at a minimum. Thinking back over the last 15/20 years to the successful sides, Yernited had Beckham and Chelsea had Robben as just two examples, their deliveries often led to goals against opposition who'd come for damage limitation.

We need a set piece taker. This is 100% correct.

I watched a bit of the Chelsea game v Burnley, the difference is that their players all run with the ball. we tend to just pass it from almost a standing position. If you run at people they have to commit. Can & Hendo together dont allow that.

Also KiNki's post regarding someone like Robben. It's the exact type of player we miss in these situations. Maybe that's why we want Brandt
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 09:52:09 am by clinical »
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Offline DanA

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2017, 01:14:25 pm »
I think a lot of shape and scoring problems are personnel driven.

The Xavi comparison with Henderson isn't right IMO, he's more our Busquets. The comparison should be Wijnaldum/Can and there's a big difference between how each of those players facilitate our play and where they are getting the ball. And in that regard Wijanaldum is a hell of a lot more like Xavi than Can. You look at the two passing diagrams and Wijnaldum is receiving the ball both deeper and wider, IMO this is happening because Wijnaldum is much more comfortable receive and distributing the ball under pressure, Can on the other hand takes a couple of steps back looking for space to operate. Don't get me wrong he's a good player but he's not a good fit. Against a low block his style of play has a detrimental effect, less players are drawn out, longer passes give the opposition more time to adjust.

This is just 1 of 100 little problems that add up. When Mane is out we are devoid of pace. When Lallana is missing we lack creativity in midfield and when Henderson is missing we lack defensive cover on our flanks. But also when Coutinho is out we lose more creativity. Firmino is moved to LW and we are robbed of pressure from the striker position with a less effective LW. Then there is our lack of set piece takers (particular left foot ones) and the loss of momentum because Milner is one paced and too often cutting back onto his right. Our keepers are terrible, Lucas is too slow and Lovren often gives way too much space.

Klopp's got a big job ahead of him, some he can fix immediately and some he's got to find a way to fix on a budget with probably 3-4 additions. It's not gonna be easy but there are definitely green shoots. I think we are much better than we were a year ago.
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Offline redk84

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2017, 02:05:45 pm »
This post should have been a sticky for the last 20-odd years of our club  ;D

Seems to be the main issue we have and has been dogging us for years. There's some brilliant insight from more knowledgeable posters in here which has been good reading....

Confidence plays a huge part, movement and the willingness to create/take on players comes part in parcel with being on top of your game. We've seen us rip apart teams this season and this whole debate would be laughable in October.....but then in January its a massive concern and completely relevant!

So when you don't have the confidence......set pieces are huge. Can get you a goal out of nowhere. Having more variations in your attack are always great imo. A player that can score from 30 yards is always handy. Mane has been a sensation this year and we definitely need more pace in wide areas like he has brought....
I'm one of the few that thinks someone like Sturridge as an option is a good thing, because he can do things most others cant (ok not enough this season and maybe better from bench now but still...)

But yeah, so much is involved that I don't think it is something that you can just one day say, yep, solved that problem!

It can be something that we limit to freak occasions tho....and that's the aim.
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Offline Jookie

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2017, 02:24:24 pm »
Teams are defending deep and narrow against us. Crowding the central areas and in essence allowing our defensive midfielder and full backs to have the ball.

Recently I think we've played into the hands of the opposition. As others have said, Can and Henderson together has resulted in us moving the ball too slowly. I really rate both players but together against this type of tactics doesn't play to their strengths. In terms of midfield, I know a lot of people want a deep lying playmaker. I wouldn't go down this route unless they had the immense physical attributes Henderson has. Watching at the the actual games, it's amazing to see how much ground Henderson covers. That's something we need to keep within the system. Particularly when teams try to counter us. In these tight games keeping the score to 0-0 for as long as possible helps us. Too often we've conceded sloppy goals.

The other thing we've done detrimentally refers to either Firmino/Coutinho wide left and Milner at left back. Again all 3 our players I rate. However, all 3 are looking to come inside or play the ball inside. We are choosing to go into areas were the opposition has lots of men and the play is ultra condensed. What we need to be doing is staying wide and stretching the play. Creating one on one or two on one situation out wide. Firstly, you'll get into better position to deliver crosses (generally we are doing this from 20 yards out). Secondly, you get the opposition to think about staying so narrow. As soon as they spread out to counter your width, you create space for your central players.

What I think we need to do next season, is have a credible alternative to Milner at left back. Someone who is going to provide better width and quality delivery from out wide. I think we also need someone who can provide width from the left of the front 3. That's not Firmino or Coutinho for me. I think you need to keep Henderson in the deepest midfield role. Alongside him should be 2 progressive midfielders. Though they need to be defensively astute. Teams are looking to counter attack. You need midfielders who will work hard, track runs and can handle the physicality of a midfield battle in the Premier League. For me, that potentially rules out Coutinho from centre mid. In our current squad it would be Henderson with Wijnaldum and Lallana. We need to buy another alternative to Wijnaldum/Lallana and/or use Coutinho in there.

There are 2 other things I would do. Firstly, it's imperative that your centre halves win the physical battle against the opposing striker in these types of games. Against Swansea, for example, Llorente bossed our centre backs. Same as Dicko for Wolves. That gives the opposition a way out and a way to relieve the pressure when they have 10 men behind the ball. If you can win that physical battle, you keep the opposition penned in their own half. You also make it incredibly difficult for them to launch counter attacks. I'd personally look for another centre back who can excel in these situations. I don't think Klavan does. I think he's had his better games when he's been asked to defend deeper (Everton away, City at home for example).

The second thing I'd consider is a more physical centre forward option. If we look to exploit teams down the sides when they defend deep, then we should be getting quality balls into the box. A commanding centre forward may be an option in this situation. If we don't then we need to flood the box with midfielders.

That sounds like a lot of things are wrong but it's not the case. It's a few minor tweaks than could amount to a lot. A fair amount of it is to do with strengthening the squad and having genuine alternatives to the current first XI. The need to play square pegs in round holes, following a few injuries has hurt us. The most controversial thing I would do is not necessarily elect Coutinho for these types of games. I think he'd have his part to play, coming off the bench and dictating play in the last 30 minutes against tired defences. At the moment, I think his desire to come centrally hinders our ability to break down the park the bus teams. I'm sure loads will disagree though.

I think Jookie might just be the best fisherman on this thread.

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2017, 02:36:41 pm »

I don't know how to change this, if I did I would be a manager/coach and I would also get paid stupid amounts of money for it, but it really is destroying what is essentially an entertainments business


Yep........I don't know how anyone would support a team that relies on defending in numbers for 95% of the match. It's boring to watch and gives the supporters little value. Ok so occasionally there's a breakaway and maybe they score but then they resort back to dull football. There are quite a few teams in the league who I wouldn't pay money to watch.
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2017, 02:37:35 pm »
Agree with everything there Jookie regarding the profile of players we should be looking to sign. Centre back, left back, another natural no.8, a winger for the left side and an alternative to Firmino up front. The goalkeeper situation is a tough one and almost entirely separate.

It's certainly not going to fix everything but if even 3 out of those 5 players hit the ground running it'll make a massive difference to our ability to rotate between games and translate our domination against low-block defending sides into clear cut chances more effectively.

The left back and/or the left-sided winger is the major one for the latter, though, because we sorely lack the ability to go 'round the outside, 'round the outside, 'round the outside. Mane and Clyne give us that on the right side when combining effectively but I think we've literally seen sides shift us towards the other flank at times because they know it's just going to come back inside. Occasionally the big switch to Clyne will come and that's where he needs to be bolder but also supported more consistently by Mane or whoever is up front in the channel.

Ultimately there needs to be a threat from both flanks. If full backs or tracked back wingers are genuinely scared of being beaten on the outside, there'll soon become more space inside for the likes of Coutinho, Firmino and Lallana to thrive. Not only that, but going on the outside itself is an effective way to create chances in the box.

It could even be one player we use in both positions for different games should the wage/transfer budget be too thin to get both, but I'd prefer to just sell Moreno, sell Markovic, loan out Ojo and do it properly. A lot will depend on which European competition we're competing in.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 02:41:36 pm by LallanaInPyjamas »

Offline Jookie

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2017, 02:47:14 pm »
The goalkeeper situation is a tough one and almost entirely separate.

This is not a transfer thread but getting a new goalkeeper would be low down on my priority list.

I suspect we'd win more points by solving how to beat low block teams than we will by replacing the goalkeeper.

Beating the low block teams is not about deviating massively from Plan A either. It's about doing Plan A with a few tweaks. Doing something very similar to Plan A with players with slightly different attributes. Because I've suggested we have a more physical centre forward as an option, doesn't mean we should be launching balls up to him. He'd need to fit into the all round system of how we play.
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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2017, 02:56:48 pm »
I'd like to see a Wijnaldum, Lallana and Coutinho(Firmino?) midfield three. Love the job Henderson is doing but the next evolution in midfield is having three "pivots". Not even start with it, just give it a try later on in the game, bring on a striker/winger for a centre-back, move Henderson back. I'd trust Wijnaldum to do a really good job in the DM role too.
Bit fanciful i know, but is there a chance Henderson, in this system, in games where we have 70% possession, would be brilliant alongside Matip, make us stronger overall in defence?

One for next season maybe, presuming we sign a quality attacker or two and need to think about moving players round.

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2017, 03:10:21 pm »
Looking at the squad we currently have I wonder if Ojo, TAA or Moreno could be of use in some of these games. Ojo has that natural ability to beat someone out of nothing, TAA is a bit more aggressive at hitting the byline than Clyne and Moreno can stretch things a little better than Milner. All three could cause that slight bit of danger in wide areas that can destabilise the opposition.

I'm still not sure why Ojo didn't get near the team when Mane was out.

Offline Jookie

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2017, 03:42:27 pm »
I'd like to see a Wijnaldum, Lallana and Coutinho(Firmino?) midfield three.


One of our biggest weaknesses against the park the bus teams recently, has been conceding easy goals. Generally they've been down to counter attacks or set pieces. Going with the midfield you are suggesting is likely to make us more vulnerable to the counter attack and potentially weaker on set pieces.

Not all our problems with beating the low block teams is associated with the front 6 breaking these teams down. We've conceded cheap goals and given themselves something to hold onto. I think there's a tendency for us to think about it as a problem in terms of breaking these teams down. Get enough attacking players on the pitch and things will be better.

We need to strike a balance between giving ourselves a better cutting edge whilst also giving ourselves enough protection. Generally, Henderson provides a huge amount of protection to the back four. He had a really poor game against Swansea and you really saw what things might look like without someone excelling in that position.

The midfield suggested above is not the right balance for me. Also, I would say Henderson at centre back completely negates his main physical attributes. Attributes that are absolute key as the deepest midfielder in Klopp's current system.
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Offline redk84

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2017, 03:57:09 pm »
See I reckon a goalkeeper that (Edit) hardly makes basic as fuck errors should be no.1 on our transfer list...one that saves us more points then loses them....

would go a long way in stopping low block defending teams beat us too!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 04:05:38 pm by redk84 »
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Offline clinical

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2017, 04:19:37 pm »
See I reckon a goalkeeper that (Edit) hardly makes basic as fuck errors should be no.1 on our transfer list...one that saves us more points then loses them....

would go a long way in stopping low block defending teams beat us too!

It's hard to measure. But the net difference between a Mignolet and a De Gea must be huge.

Thing is we concede more because we panic a little and they get us on counter. But what is fascinating is that they don't need many shots to score and a good keeper helps in that regard. When we had Reina on top form we used to seem to draw against these teams. Now we're losing.


I'd like to see a Wijnaldum, Lallana and Coutinho(Firmino?) midfield three. Love the job Henderson is doing but the next evolution in midfield is having three "pivots". Not even start with it, just give it a try later on in the game, bring on a striker/winger for a centre-back, move Henderson back. I'd trust Wijnaldum to do a really good job in the DM role too.
Bit fanciful i know, but is there a chance Henderson, in this system, in games where we have 70% possession, would be brilliant alongside Matip, make us stronger overall in defence?

One for next season maybe, presuming we sign a quality attacker or two and need to think about moving players round.

Piling more attacking players on isn't the answer. In fact can make it worse.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 04:21:18 pm by clinical »
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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2017, 04:21:59 pm »
Movement to pull the bus apart. We have been too slow moving the ball from midfield to attack and the attack's movement has been too predictable. Also doesn't help that our fullbacks rarely trouble the opposition fullbacks and pull them away from the centre backs.

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2017, 04:23:42 pm »
We need to draw more fouls close to the box. I can't remember the last time we've had a game with 3 or more free kicks next to the box. Coutinho can score them.
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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2017, 06:04:33 pm »
We need to draw more fouls close to the box. I can't remember the last time we've had a game with 3 or more free kicks next to the box. Coutinho can score them.

This is something I'd work on too, although teams will try and block the space for that pass into the forwards, but instead of recycling the ball from side to side
we need to try and play through teams more often, yes that is a more risky pass but if you can get the ball into Firmino, Mane or Coutinho's feet in more central areas close to the opposition goal we will draw more freekicks in dangerous shooting positions where we have some good options.

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2017, 06:26:32 pm »
The thing especially with a player like Emre Can is that I'd like us to turn what is a liability against low block teams into an asset. He oozes natural ability with play in front of him so why oh why do we not field him as a central defender against teams who try to shut us out. I see people applaud Lucas for his crisp passing in those situations, and granted I agree he's very good at it, but Can has a great amount of panache to his repertoire when the play is infront of him; I'm thinking back to that Bolton assist to Sterling under Rodgers as a prime example.

I think beyond that, and whilst Mane is so important to breaking these teams down, it's imperative that the fullbacks attack from deep areas more often. I think Clyne does it, but he's no Alves technically, Moreno could be a huge asset yet he has no clue how to attack space and often receives in a static position.

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2017, 08:44:22 pm »

We need to sign some left footed players to increase the speed at which we can move the ball and give us more options for passing first time

Offline redbyrdz

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2017, 10:09:13 pm »
I'm still not sure why Ojo didn't get near the team when Mane was out.

Not for this thread (which is a really good debate), but I have a feeling Klopp is protecting the youngsters by keeping them out. He doesn't want them overloaded with expectations. If Ojo is on the bench, and the team underperforming, there'll be pressure to put him on and expectations for him to change the match - not what a youngster needs for development.
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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2017, 10:38:11 pm »
I don't think people realise how important this is. over the last decade if we knew how to do this we would have won the league under Rafa and dare i say we'd be right up with Chelsea this.

The only time we haven't struggled as much is when we had Suarez. We just couldn't defend then.
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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2017, 11:06:36 pm »
It'd be interesting to see if we could get some situations like the second goal against Spurs, but closer to the opposition goal with them defending deeper. Kick the ball long and try to nick it off them with blindside pressing before they can set themselves properly to clear it.

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2017, 11:10:01 pm »
I think Clyne and Milner have been largely solid defensively for us but i think we need to upgrade on these positions, maybe Clyne can be coached to improve over the next season or so but so far his crossing has been poor - that overlap is vital against a narrow back 4 and can free up space for Mane
Sometimes it feels like the opposition just let Clyne have the ball as he isnt a threat :/

Offline Redcap

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2017, 03:10:24 am »
I think a lot of shape and scoring problems are personnel driven.

The Xavi comparison with Henderson isn't right IMO, he's more our Busquets. The comparison should be Wijnaldum/Can and there's a big difference between how each of those players facilitate our play and where they are getting the ball. And in that regard Wijanaldum is a hell of a lot more like Xavi than Can. You look at the two passing diagrams and Wijnaldum is receiving the ball both deeper and wider, IMO this is happening because Wijnaldum is much more comfortable receive and distributing the ball under pressure, Can on the other hand takes a couple of steps back looking for space to operate. Don't get me wrong he's a good player but he's not a good fit. Against a low block his style of play has a detrimental effect, less players are drawn out, longer passes give the opposition more time to adjust.

This is just 1 of 100 little problems that add up. When Mane is out we are devoid of pace. When Lallana is missing we lack creativity in midfield and when Henderson is missing we lack defensive cover on our flanks. But also when Coutinho is out we lose more creativity. Firmino is moved to LW and we are robbed of pressure from the striker position with a less effective LW. Then there is our lack of set piece takers (particular left foot ones) and the loss of momentum because Milner is one paced and too often cutting back onto his right. Our keepers are terrible, Lucas is too slow and Lovren often gives way too much space.

Klopp's got a big job ahead of him, some he can fix immediately and some he's got to find a way to fix on a budget with probably 3-4 additions. It's not gonna be easy but there are definitely green shoots. I think we are much better than we were a year ago.


Good summary.

Problem is, as you've pointed out, we're painfully lacking in depth. Our first XI is excellent, and I think (Lovren excepted), with everyone back yesterday, we could do our thing. Each member of our first team (possibly some exception with the back 4) performs a very specific role when we're in possession.

As you've alluded to, you take one element of this (particularly in the front 6) out, and we're struggling.

No one in the team has the defensive resilience, work rate, and passing range of Henderson. Without him, we're less capable of pinging quick long balls into players ahead of the play, to stretch the space and create opportunities.

Lallana and Wijnaldum are somewhat interchangeable to a degree, but you take one out and we're stuck with Can, who's simply too slow and lacking in agility to perform this role. This then directly leads to a slower transition to attack, less space, and fewer scoring opportunities.

When you take out Coutinho, we lose one of our two best dribblers in the team, who has the ability to take a marker on and beat him with skill. We also lose our best throughball exponent and our biggest long range goal threat. The fact that we move Firmino, whom I think has a subtly, but importantly different skillset to Coutinho (fewer throughballs, less range goals, more pressing from the front) in there, where he is so much less effective, to understudy Coutinho, says it all about how much we struggle when Coutinho is out.

When you take out Mané, the pockets of space we open up with the way we play off the ball close up before we have someone that's able to attack them, because without him, we have so little in the way of pace and acceleration.

When you take out Firmino, the whole team's pressing suffers and as a result we create less space.

Our bench strength, which we had been fairly happy with at the start of the season, has let us down.

Sturridge doesn't have the pace (or for that matter, the desire) to be Mané on the right, nor the craft to create from deeper positions like Coutinho (at least, he hasn't demonstrated this consistently - I think it may be something he could work towards remodelling his game towards doing, because he's got great skill, decent vision and is obviously a goal threat).

Origi is theoretically a decent analogue for Firmino, but playing as a forward, he doesn't quite press enough and somehow manages to shoot less than Firmino, even though Firmino isn't a full time striker.

Can is simply a very weird player, who combines physicality and some silky technical aspects on the ball, with being fairly lethargic both on and off the ball. For me, he's still more like Yaya Toure than anyone else, which means his skills are best used as one of the more advanced CMs. But he's seriously lacking in the agility department, and slows down our play to a crawl when he's expected to be Lallana or Wijnaldum.

And after that? Who do we actually have after that? Ings is the unluckiest player alive. Gruijic seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth since early in the season, and in any case is probably more similar to Can than Lallana/Wijnaldum in style. And then we're into the promising U-20s players and Kevin Stewart.

So I think yes, we are desperately short of depth, if we want to sustain the way we play through injuries.

I think we need:

Another CM - someone like Naby Keita or Mahmoud Dahoud, to be Lallana/Wijnaldum
Another winger - someone like Brandt, or any of the other wingers we were linked with, to be Mané
Another striker - someone to be Firmino, if any similar sort of player even exists (short of miraculously getting Suarez back)


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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2017, 07:11:31 am »
A new keeper would be low on my list to be honest. I believe the very way we play we often leave our keeper exposed when their team is on the counter. I'm confident our keepers do a good job. There's been a lot of games whereby in normal circumstances they've played very well. Theres been several goals this season where to blame our keepers would be very harsh. The mistakes have often come from defence and /or midfield thus exposing our keeper. Not sure what we will get to spend in the summer but I think the money could be spent a lot more wisely than on a new keeper.
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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2017, 09:24:39 am »
I think Clyne and Milner have been largely solid defensively for us but i think we need to upgrade on these positions, maybe Clyne can be coached to improve over the next season or so but so far his crossing has been poor - that overlap is vital against a narrow back 4 and can free up space for Mane
Sometimes it feels like the opposition just let Clyne have the ball as he isnt a threat :/

Clyne is the least of our worries. We'd only complain a new right back who's better attacking can't defend.
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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2017, 11:35:28 am »
I think our complete lack of threat at set pieces over the last few seasons is also key. Against the park the bus teams, we invariably have a lot of corners and a couple of free kicks around the box. We need to make these opportunites count, as clear chances from open play can be at a minimum. Thinking back over the last 15/20 years to the successful sides, Yernited had Beckham and Chelsea had Robben as just two examples, their deliveries often led to goals against opposition who'd come for damage limitation.

A thousand times this. A devastating set piece taker would make a huge difference to this team. The last time we challenged for the title we were great at this, Gerrard's free kick delivery and threat in the box from corners got us some vital goals that season. Even Sam Allardyce praised our set piece prowess.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 11:37:23 am by joe ® »

Offline AaronSingh25

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2017, 01:53:10 pm »
Remember watching an interview with Ole Gunner Solskajar (spelling), saying Fergie would  instruct them to give away free kicks around a certain area. Thus giving enough incentive to give the opposition to commit players forward.

United would bring players back, and appear to be all defensive, but the whole mind set was to be ready to break. The opposition would commit players forward, including central defenders. As soon the free kick was launched, before it even came into the box, a few United players would already be breaking forward into clear space.

That tactical comment from Ole Gunner has always stuck with me.

The whole crux of the issue is you have to get the other team to come out and lose shap - thus you have to take risks in order to do that.

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2017, 02:51:49 pm »
but Can has a great amount of panache to his repertoire when the play is infront of him; I'm thinking back to that Bolton assist to Sterling under Rodgers as a prime example.

As much as I love Lucas, I would be inclined to slot Can in his place if we are down to the both of them for central defense. Against these bus-parking teams Can was quite painful to watch in midfield. He turns like the Titanic and manages to take just a second too long for each pass, and any momentum we had was always extinguished whenever the ball came to him.

He's not all to blame for our shortcomings though, but when the team is playing poorly he stands out in particular. He looked great when scoring a couple of goals earlier in the season when the whole team was playing well, but I can't put my finger to what has happened to him since then.
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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2017, 02:59:55 pm »
There is a good article on TAW



Liverpool v Weaker Sides: Is It Really A Question Of The Team’s Attitude?


https://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2017/02/liverpool-v-weaker-sides-is-it-really-a-question-of-the-teams-attitude/

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #113 on: February 15, 2017, 03:52:00 am »
Isn't this all blown a bit out of proportion?

If we're talking about 'lower level opposition' stopping us from scoring, there's only arguably been two times that's happened in the league so far:
Burnley 2-0 away
Hull 2-0 away

Yes we also drop points to Swansea, Bournemouth, Sunderland and West Ham but we score 9 goals in those 4 games so hardly had any major issues getting through the defense.

The difference between us and Chelsea is they'll score the solitary goal against Sunderland and get the 3 points. Whilst we shit the bed and give away two penalties.

We also fell down against Wolves, even though we scored they packed the defence and got 2 against us.

Southampton played very compact with a mind to hit us on the break, and we had a 0 - 0, 1 - 0 and 0 - 1

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #114 on: February 15, 2017, 09:16:20 am »
Sometimes i get the impression that the teams lower on the table only park the bus against us, but i could be wrong, of course.

The full backs could be very important to break the bus. I remember when Manchester City 2013-14 would create openings/chances through clever combination play involving the full backs on the overlap with Zabaleta/Clichy, seemed almost inevitable. It shifts the opposition's focus from overloading central areas to giving the wide areas more support, thus making the middle available again. Easy talk, but it is what it is.

In 2013-14 there was quality set piece delivery, for example [Fulham (H), Hull (H), Sunderland (H)] and Suarez with individual pieces of quality, for example [Norwich (H), West Ham (H), WBA (H)] . All of these matches were against deep defences that got done on the first goal by either Suarez or a set piece, leaving them no choice but to open themselves to get a goal. We didn't get to see this kind of set piece prowess under Rodgers again and Suarez went to Barcelona. Again, easy talk, but it is what it is

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #115 on: March 6, 2017, 11:46:57 pm »
Sometimes i get the impression that the teams lower on the table only park the bus against us, but i could be wrong, of course.

The full backs could be very important to break the bus. I remember when Manchester City 2013-14 would create openings/chances through clever combination play involving the full backs on the overlap with Zabaleta/Clichy, seemed almost inevitable. It shifts the opposition's focus from overloading central areas to giving the wide areas more support, thus making the middle available again. Easy talk, but it is what it is.

In 2013-14 there was quality set piece delivery, for example [Fulham (H), Hull (H), Sunderland (H)] and Suarez with individual pieces of quality, for example [Norwich (H), West Ham (H), WBA (H)] . All of these matches were against deep defences that got done on the first goal by either Suarez or a set piece, leaving them no choice but to open themselves to get a goal. We didn't get to see this kind of set piece prowess under Rodgers again and Suarez went to Barcelona. Again, easy talk, but it is what it is

This is on the money.

There are many who rightly want us to improve our spine with a new CB, DM and Forward. But where we are failing to pick up points is against these lower teams. In those matches it is not necessarily our spine that is letting us down, but our wingbacks.
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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #116 on: March 7, 2017, 12:02:17 am »
Fullbacks are crucial in Klopp's system, and more so against the lower sides as they give us space in the wide areas where the fb's are, and we don't stretch them and utilize them efficiently [partly because they don't have the quality]

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #117 on: March 7, 2017, 12:07:17 am »
Having done a little bit of research into how we fare against these types of teams compared to our rivals what I have noticed is that we still score as much as anyone against them (even though you could probably argue about distribution of those goals as we've scored a lot in few of those games) but for me the main issue will still remain the fact we conceded 3 times as much against these teams than Chelsea and Spurs and we've conceded twice as much as City's comedy defence.

That for me is borderline unacceptable and the only thing I'm interested in regarding our improvement next season is whether we'll sort this out and start defending properly against the dross in this league. 1.53 goals conceded per game against bottom 13 teams is an absolute joke.

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #118 on: March 7, 2017, 12:14:31 am »
Since Rafa's departure, we have conceded a minimum of 40 goals a seaason, under 4 managers.

That's the major issue. You can't achieve anything with that type of defending.

Offline fcsantos

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Re: How to beat the parked bus
« Reply #119 on: March 7, 2017, 12:26:20 am »
You've heard the story about Sacchi and his defence vs attack team, where the goal was the attack had to score 6 on 6 and the attack didn't win in over 31 games.

I think teams play more defensive against us that they do against even Chelsea, especially because of the way we play, so already we know how hard it is.

Three things we can do:

1. Buy speed on the ball for the left hand side (i.e. not Mark Gonzales) who will score 15 (i.e. not Julian Brandt):

Hazard, Sanchez (Perfect - Ready - will work)

Walcott (Ready - always injured)

Out the box ideas:

Vardy (I think he could play off the left, matches our work rate and will score 15)

2. Fits in well with point 1, drop Coutinho into the midfield, a LW with good movement will give us what we need.

3.  Play a ridiculous 4, 2, 3, 1 when teams drop right back:

                            Ming

Clyne           Matip      Lovren    Milner

              Henderson 

                                 Lallana

Mane                 Firmino            Coutinho

           Sturridge / Origi / a-another