Author Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles  (Read 171225 times)

Offline Purple Red

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1360 on: September 11, 2017, 04:21:13 pm »
We have no unit when defending.  The back four are stretched constantly with the midfield unable to form
 a unit with the defence. We basically defend idividually and require our players to win their battle.  Unfortunately we have too many players who don't.

It's Klopps job to form a unit. Rafa was a master at it.

Rafa's defensive set up merged with Kloppo's attacking unit would be some force, but could it work?

Rafa set us up more defensively whereas Klopp sets up up more attacking. I'm sure if it's possible to do either without some sacrifice of the other.

Offline amirani

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1361 on: September 11, 2017, 05:09:04 pm »
Can't judge defense based on 11v10. However we need to have a better plan for similar scenarios in the future because refs will bottle calls again and/or our players will have a rush of blood and make a stupid tackles. Depending on the team we need to adjust how we play with 10 men. Teams with pacy wide players/full backs thrive on open space. They'll kill us time and time again. Screw the high line, play deep and limit the space. Frustrate the opposing team and let them work to create chances and earn their goal(s).  We don't have the best personnel in defense so they need all the help from attack, midfield along with the right tactical changes/adjustments to be able to do a decent job. There was little poor TAA could do that game. So blaming him for anything isn't the smartest thing to do at this point. Klavan on the other hand. He did look extremely sloppy even at 11v11. Midfield didn't seem at top of their game either. They have a good game, we concede less. They have a poor game and the result is there to see. Need Ox and Cou to integrate quickly. And hopefully Lallana has a shorter recovery time than expected.

Offline Cid

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1362 on: September 11, 2017, 05:31:54 pm »
Our 3 top choice CBS cost what, 24m?  We made more than that selling Sakho alone (which I maintain was a shocking decion that has already come back to haunt us).

We're giving another final chance to a left back who has proven to the world he has no interest in defending.  The other side we're blooding youngsters with fantastic potential, but it's unfair to expect them to perform in such a piss poor unit really.

The middle two need investment.  We need a first choice CB to knock Lovren onto the bench, and then with Dejan's tendency to need a run of games to find form we arguably need a third choice to replace him on the bench too.  VVD would have been nice, but I'm frustrated we appear to have had no alternatives to look at when that dried up.  All that money we were throwing around and we end up going into the season with Klavan...sorry state of affairs that is.

Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: 'Liverpool haven't strengthened the defence'
« Reply #1363 on: September 11, 2017, 06:00:53 pm »
Horses for courses.
Anyone who has ever played football at any level will have that attitude of 'we are still in this' a goal or even two down,the optimism..will to win or get back in the game is always there..at least it always was from my point of view.
Our defence can be good,far too erratic, inconsistent displays & individual errors.
For me..the defence should be the least rotated.

Burnley going 2-0 down to us isn't as bad as down 2-0 to, like, Chelsea. We always give teams a chance.
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1364 on: September 11, 2017, 06:04:11 pm »
You basically described Mourinho's system.  That's why I called it "Mourinho style".
It also describes Rafa, Pochetino and Conte but you've jumped to an extreme to try and be dismissive.
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Offline ahannon88

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Re: 'Liverpool haven't strengthened the defence'
« Reply #1365 on: September 11, 2017, 07:32:10 pm »
Burnley going 2-0 down to us isn't as bad as down 2-0 to, like, Chelsea. We always give teams a chance.

We just don't seem to know how to tighten things up. We will just keep going at teams, which, with our style, leaves us vulnerable

Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: 'Liverpool haven't strengthened the defence'
« Reply #1366 on: September 11, 2017, 07:44:35 pm »
Overall? No one. But if he's stupid enough not to improve the defence in a years time then something has to give. He will though, not even Roy Hodgson would be that stupid.

He's already improved the defence. He will continue to improve it. It may not be to the level that the experts want us be at defensively, but we're moving in the right direction
We’ll still finish in top four - and they won’t. You can quote me on this in May.

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1367 on: September 11, 2017, 07:54:32 pm »
We're never going to be great defensively under Klopp no matter who we buy. Last season was his 4th best season in terms of goals against in 12 top flight seasons and we were panicking like it was terrible, yet it's in line with what to expect from a Klopp side. I can see a situation where everything goes our way and we get to the low 30's maybe once, but it's not something I'd expect going in to a season like under some other managers. I can't see him changing too much too his system either as it's what's brought him success, it's what made us want him and managers don't tend to stray too far from what they know.

He's better off trying to get us to score 80+ goals whilst keeping the defence at the same level, it's a more achievable target and will see us around top 4 or more as well.

Offline FernandoTourettes

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1368 on: September 11, 2017, 09:08:52 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/I0UdzTeHdNA&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/I0UdzTeHdNA&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>

Hahah everyone watch this. If you still believe it's the system then you're simply wrong.
That's almost as painful as watching the City game back again.

Unbelievable how many individual errors lead up to so many of those goals. Bad comedy.

Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: 'Liverpool haven't strengthened the defence'
« Reply #1369 on: September 11, 2017, 09:19:37 pm »
We just don't seem to know how to tighten things up. We will just keep going at teams, which, with our style, leaves us vulnerable

The team thrives on chaos. I rate our midfielders, but we don't seem to control games in that area of the pitch.
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Offline fudge

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1370 on: September 11, 2017, 09:33:01 pm »
The biggest concerns I have around our defence is the lack of communication, the lack of aggression and just all round lack of desire to actually defend. Moreno for example, yeah he will defend when he needs to but does anyone honestly get the feeling with him that he has a desire to do it? Same with Lovren. Same with even Matip.

This is as quiet a defence as you are likely to see. Nobody is screaming at each other to get in to position, or to track runners or to just switch on. Look at the state of our defensive line for the first goal at the weekend. Not a single defend in line with another. None of them paying attention to the position of their other defenders never mind the position of the attackers. Carragher was constantly switched on. Desperate to defend. He was always talking his fellow defenders through every second of a game and leading the defence. It was everything to him. This defence just feels so laissez faire. Oh if they need defend then they'll try when it gets to them personally, but they don't work as a unit in the slightest. They aren't constantly thinking and aware of where they should be and where their team mates are.

I was just thinking back to our team from a decade ago, and it was just so different in attitude. Yes, we didn't always win. Yes we would lose games etc etc. But we had communicators and people who really CARED if we concede. It made them angry. Pepe Reina, Jamie Carragher, Javier Mascherano. If you didnt pull your weight with them they'd rip your head off. Who gives out that impression now? It's all to nice. Every one of them. Even lads like Arbeloa were snide fuckers. Lads who cared about defending. Carra got in his face and he didnt back down in the slightest. Who would do that now if Carra shouted at them?

Joel Matip, our first choice CB, a good player. But far too nice and far too passive. When have you ever saw him get in the face of a CF he is playing against? When has he ever got in a heated argument with anyone? Any time he fouls lads, he's putting his hand out picking them up and apologising right away. Nasty fuckers like Costa last season for example. I remember him trying to leave one on Matip. A couple minutes later he fouled Costa and was apologising profusely right away.

It's the biggest issue our defence has. The lack of absolute desperation to defend well. And it is hard to sign lads who will fix it because it is difficult to know who has that drive. It was the thing I adored most about Suarez. Not his skill. Not his creativity. Not even his work ethic. But his absolute desire to do anything and everything to win. He'd put his life down if it meant winning a game of football. He was so driven. He'd lose his shit more if we conceded a throw in than our current lads do if we concede a goal. When did you last see someone lose their shit at conceding a goal. It's just shrugs. Nobody willing to dig each other out and pull someone up. It's all about drive. Remember Suarez going fucking mental at Sturridge for not passing him the ball when we were 4-0 up in a derby? That's the attitude our defenders and in general everyone needs to have. Thankfully we have Naby Keita joining next summer and I think he has that mentality from what I have saw of him.

We need leaders and communicators in that back line, and we need them ASAP.  I'll be honest, it obviously won't happen because it would be too much change at once, but I'd have no problem with Klopp replacing any of our back 6. Matip is the one I like most in there, but even he has questions marks around him due to his mentality.

Spot on, our defence is so similar to the Arsenal team's glass chin its untrue
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Offline Anfield Ed

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1371 on: September 11, 2017, 09:34:37 pm »
Awaiting people to say that our defence is good by using useless statistics.

Bottom line is that we haven't won anything since 2012 because we concede too many goals, but yeah our defence is good according to the few good folks on here.

Offline scouse neapolitan

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1372 on: September 11, 2017, 09:41:20 pm »
There are so many good things about our team when we're on song. But whatever system the Boss plays he needs a charismatic leader who is able to turn things round when the chips are down.

A motivator, a kicker, a nasty bstard, a footballer all rolled into one,  but we need one smartish.. Every successful team has had one. Mascherano, Keane, Souness, Baresi,Gattuso. This type of player gets an extra 20% from his own players by constantly keeping them on their game, as well as terrorising the opposition and the match officials.With one of these fellas playing in front of the defence and Klavan or Lovren would look like Scirea or Beckenbauer. Who is the question.

Offline MazzaRed

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1373 on: September 11, 2017, 10:05:57 pm »
Does a better Keeper improve us? Yes

Does a better CB improve us? Yes

Can we afford to do this? Most likely yes.

So the fact we haven't is even more baffling. I didn't include a DM in that because it changes the way we play. But we play with a keeper and CBs we had the chance and the money to improve them. So why haven't we. I've yet to see an answer from anyone that makes sense.

Everyone seems to be saying the same thing, TV pundits, journos, fans, opposition fans even. Literally everyone I know who watches football always asks, why don't LFC sort the defence out you'd go places. It's a question you have to ask since Rafa left.


Think Klopp wants VVD, we screwed up in the summer but we get him in January (when the 'slate' is wiped clean as far as the tapping up shenanigans goes). No-one else was on the list but him.

But still baffled at the defensive line up on Sat - why change it? Why? Agree with Carra, that if Lovren was only a small doubt he should play. Need to keep the same back 4, like in the old days and the teams recently who've done good, for the reasons we all know too well. I'd take Matip/Lovren for now, but consistently as first choice until we can get sorted hopefully with VVD.

And as for Klopp's system, believe it is right but just question some of the individuals being good enough.
One big issue though is lack of leadership. I think it emphasised in our disjointed play when we're not flowing in possesion .Obviously Hendo was injured for a large part of last season but I actually don't think he's the right man for the job....lacks that extra something...be it the 'leadership', the full blown warrior mentality, the ability to take the game by the scruff of the neck...? Massively absent in captain duties on Sat, especially 2nd half and have made my mind up on him. Too many square 'safe' balls or aimless hoofs up field when he should be trying to start something going forward with ball at feet.....remember Brendan saying he needed to improve his game by bombing forward a bit more and scoring more. No one else right either at the moment so that one's staying as it is.

Think everyones got carried away by the Arsenal game, while we were good we didn't really have any defending to do, so were flattered cos they were shite!!



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Offline JD.

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1374 on: September 12, 2017, 06:36:54 pm »
We aren't going to see us replace all the personnel at once so it will be interesting to see what gets done. I think GK/CB/LB will be what gets done next summer. I just desperately hope Klopp doesn't try to yet again find bargains and just goes for proven quality like he generally has further forward with the likes of Salah, Mane and Keita.

Van Dijk proven quality. Hopefully we go after similar standard elsewhere. Could do a lot worse than asking Porto what they'd want for their full back duo Telles/Pereira and the DM Danilo Pereira.

Offline 13th man

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1375 on: September 13, 2017, 12:40:18 pm »
Abba made a comeback song recently called 'I have a team' which is an ode to our current defensive frailties apparently, just heard it on spotify, I can't get it out of my head...

I have a team, I want to win
Who can defend against any team
If you see the wonder of a solid defence
You don't have to suffer in constant suspense
I believe in good keepers
Ones who can kick and catch
When Klopp feels the time is right
We may avoid conceding in every match

I have a dream, a fantasy
To help me though reality
The hope of winning the title makes it worth the while
Pushing through the darkness, still another season
Before we finally invest in decent defenders and keepers
I'll be done for treason for stating the obvious
 :-X
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1376 on: September 13, 2017, 01:37:21 pm »
The backline numbers are not bad when compare to other sides as over a season they will probably rank in the top 6. That is very doable if on the other side our attack rank in the Top 2 and the quandary then is do you take away from our attack to bolster our defence. I don't think we have to as surely some investment in our backline will see improvement as under Klopp's guidance we probably have spent 15% of his funds on defenders/goalies etc. You cant expect several replacements in one window but surely we should have done better, ie to go from Moreno to Milner then back to Moreno with a young prospect as backup/challenger surely is not a step forward is it? No need to bash Moreno or Mignolet or Klavan as the issue is bigger than one player, those players are just getting the brunt of it when its the bigger picture that needs to be looked at...the lack of investment / scouting for something that is our achilles heel.
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1377 on: September 15, 2017, 02:11:46 pm »
A conversation with FSG and a Boston based Scouser....Can't say nobody told them:
#YNWA

https://mobile.twitter.com/ArmenianTweets_/status/908353813861543941

 ;D
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 02:14:05 pm by redprodigal »

Offline Chakan

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1378 on: September 15, 2017, 02:13:45 pm »
A conversation with FSG and a Boston based Scouser....Can't say nobody told them:
#YNWA

https://mobile.twitter.com/ArmenianTweets_/status/908353813861543941

Not so much a conversation, as one guy shouting at John Henry.

Offline redprodigal

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1379 on: September 15, 2017, 02:17:04 pm »
Not so much a conversation, as one guy shouting at John Henry.

A bit of light relief my friend.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1380 on: September 15, 2017, 02:18:11 pm »
A bit of light relief my friend.

Fair enough.

Offline Chief Brody

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1381 on: September 15, 2017, 02:24:16 pm »
Last time he sits in the posh seats.

Offline adamski29

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1382 on: September 15, 2017, 03:09:12 pm »
I don't mind conceding more goals than other more solid teams because of the way we play. I don't even mind getting a spanking every now and again because it's an all or nothing kinda play style which I enjoy watching. I do however mind watching, what should be routine defending turn into goals because of stupid individual errors and an inability to do the basics right. Most of the goals we concede are not conceded because of the way we play but because the individuals involved are not good enough or aggressive enough when called upon. Moreno, Lovren even matip and our goalkeeper all not good enough for where we want to be. It's that simple. Will we concede goals with better players in their positions? Yes but I'd wager that we concede less and certainly less that would have you pulling your hair out in frustration.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 03:11:06 pm by adamski29 »

Offline JD.

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1383 on: September 15, 2017, 06:42:32 pm »
Alberto Moreno starting his 4th season at the club as #1 left back.
Dejan Lovren starting his 4th season at the club as #1 centre back.
Simon Mignolet starting his FIFTH season at the club as #1 goalkeeper.

It's not really a mystery why our defence isn't improving.

Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1384 on: September 15, 2017, 07:20:24 pm »
We need to decide on our full backs I think now. It's nonsense to keep rotating Trent and Gomez and Moreno/Robertson (though not as much). We need consistency now. No idea why Flanagan is still here as well as.
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Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1385 on: September 15, 2017, 08:04:01 pm »
We really are missing Clyne and Lallana. What were people thinking when they were asking for Clyne to be replaced last season? He's our best defender and why were they only looking at his attacking capabilities and taking his defensive expertise for granted? It is not easy to defend that well in our system as is proven by every other defender playing for us in the last few years. Also he did create a lot of chances, I think he was top 5 for most chances created by a defender in the league. He's a massive loss.

And we're missing Lallana, not only in terms of having the midfield to control the game, but because he's a total leader in the middle of the park when it comes to initiating pressing. Against Sevilla, watching Can trying to initiate pressing was really hard to take because it was so uncoordinated and in two or three passes they were able to go behind the lines.

They're massive reasons as to why our defense looks worse this season even though we improved off season by signing Robertson and having Gomez back from injury

1) The key to this is to try Milner at RB, at least we won't be as open as now and we will at least be as solid as last season at LB. Gomez is suspended for the next CL game. This is a risky situation we're in, that we have to rely on two youngsters, one just back from a long injury and another a teenager. Absence of Clyne is something that we didn't forsee last season, so Milner could be an answer. That helps in two areas. Gives us more depth at RB and we can also start to use Gomez more as a CB option, which we desperately need. I'm not sure if Klopp has thought about it, but he did answer a question in the press-conference talking about playing Milner back at LB if needed.

2) The second idea I would like to see implemented is to start trying out Robertson as our first option at LB and have Moreno as cover. Moreno definitely looks better now, but is still rash at moments which could be costly. We have to eliminate as many mistakes from our defense before Clyne is back and we sign another CB in the next couple of transfer windows. Starting Robertson could help, he has decent defensive numbers when it comes to anticipation and can be dangerous going forward with his crosses.

3) I don't see why we have to buy a new GK, I can't understand why there are so many calls. I'm surprised about calls for LB as well. We have 3 GKs, and we just bought a LB. I definitely believe that in time the plan is to get Karius more and more time on the pitch and eventually get him to No. 1. It has to be slower than Klopp expected of course because of the pressure that the fans place and the time required for Karius to adjust to the league. In the long term, I'm feeling good about Karius becoming No. 1 because he is the opposite of Mignolet. His mistakes were not due to lack of confidence, but due to over confidence at times thinking that he had more time on the ball than he did. He is good with passing the ball, he throws the ball quickly to launch attacks (which Mignolet hardly does, he waits till the dust settles) and he is good one-on-ones. He has started to command his area as well, against Sevilla he was comfortable claiming high balls and making long punches and apart. He made really good saves against Southampton in the Cup last season in both legs which often gets forgotten, two great games and a few other good games with no goal conceded due to him/his errors but two games of mistakes (Bournemouth and West Ham) get remembered as if they were the norm. They weren't in Germany and they won't be here as well in time.

So, we have the answers to RB, LB and GK in our squad - it may take a bit of time to come to fruit, but I'm confident. The major problem we have is CB options and though we did try to address, we failed in the summer and we should address it asap. We definitely need one more CB option. But with starting to use Karius more, Robertson as first LB and maybe Milner till Clyne comes back could all make our defense provide better results before we strengthen our CB options.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 08:10:30 pm by PoetryInMotion »

Offline J-Mc-

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1386 on: September 15, 2017, 08:18:58 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/I0UdzTeHdNA&amp;feature=youtu.be" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/I0UdzTeHdNA&amp;feature=youtu.be</a>

Hahah everyone watch this. If you still believe it's the system then you're simply wrong.

Watching that, it really does come down to individual error and concentration.

A fair few times there we've cleared the danger from the box, but then gone asleep for the second ball which instantly brings the pressure back on, when we're not set for it.

Also paints a fucking terrible picture of Lovren, and i usually don't mind the lad but the amount of times he's caught out of position or simply flicks the ball behind him INTO our box is ridiculous.

Shows how bad Henderson actually is when he's the deeper midfield aswell, so many times in that he's the midfielder in the box when we're trying to clear and he simply makes aimless swings expecting to connect, only to find he was to slow to the ball and the opposition has already gone past him with the ball.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 08:21:40 pm by J-Mc- »

Offline YJT

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1387 on: September 16, 2017, 12:34:35 am »
The biggest concerns I have around our defence is the lack of communication, the lack of aggression and just all round lack of desire to actually defend. Moreno for example, yeah he will defend when he needs to but does anyone honestly get the feeling with him that he has a desire to do it? Same with Lovren. Same with even Matip.

This is as quiet a defence as you are likely to see. Nobody is screaming at each other to get in to position, or to track runners or to just switch on. Look at the state of our defensive line for the first goal at the weekend. Not a single defend in line with another. None of them paying attention to the position of their other defenders never mind the position of the attackers. Carragher was constantly switched on. Desperate to defend. He was always talking his fellow defenders through every second of a game and leading the defence. It was everything to him. This defence just feels so laissez faire. Oh if they need defend then they'll try when it gets to them personally, but they don't work as a unit in the slightest. They aren't constantly thinking and aware of where they should be and where their team mates are.

I was just thinking back to our team from a decade ago, and it was just so different in attitude. Yes, we didn't always win. Yes we would lose games etc etc. But we had communicators and people who really CARED if we concede. It made them angry. Pepe Reina, Jamie Carragher, Javier Mascherano. If you didnt pull your weight with them they'd rip your head off. Who gives out that impression now? It's all to nice. Every one of them. Even lads like Arbeloa were snide fuckers. Lads who cared about defending. Carra got in his face and he didnt back down in the slightest. Who would do that now if Carra shouted at them?

Joel Matip, our first choice CB, a good player. But far too nice and far too passive. When have you ever saw him get in the face of a CF he is playing against? When has he ever got in a heated argument with anyone? Any time he fouls lads, he's putting his hand out picking them up and apologising right away. Nasty fuckers like Costa last season for example. I remember him trying to leave one on Matip. A couple minutes later he fouled Costa and was apologising profusely right away.

It's the biggest issue our defence has. The lack of absolute desperation to defend well. And it is hard to sign lads who will fix it because it is difficult to know who has that drive. It was the thing I adored most about Suarez. Not his skill. Not his creativity. Not even his work ethic. But his absolute desire to do anything and everything to win. He'd put his life down if it meant winning a game of football. He was so driven. He'd lose his shit more if we conceded a throw in than our current lads do if we concede a goal. When did you last see someone lose their shit at conceding a goal. It's just shrugs. Nobody willing to dig each other out and pull someone up. It's all about drive. Remember Suarez going fucking mental at Sturridge for not passing him the ball when we were 4-0 up in a derby? That's the attitude our defenders and in general everyone needs to have. Thankfully we have Naby Keita joining next summer and I think he has that mentality from what I have saw of him.

We need leaders and communicators in that back line, and we need them ASAP.  I'll be honest, it obviously won't happen because it would be too much change at once, but I'd have no problem with Klopp replacing any of our back 6. Matip is the one I like most in there, but even he has questions marks around him due to his mentality.

I made the exact same point on the tactics thread which could have pretty much been a copy paste of this post. I fully agree with tis. As a unit our passivness, and I would add casualness in our own half is a major weakness: For example our first corner of the season Matip wimps out of challenging for it and Firmino didn't fancy getting clattered trying to prevent the goal. In general I've been very disappointed with Matip's penalty area defending. If you watch as a cross is about to be put into the box, Matip is regularly moving away from his opponent towards the ball. The more he repeats it, the more I'm inclined to believe that it isn't just sloppiness but rather him not fancying confrontation. He seems to be trying to cut out the cross before he's forced to challenge for it, risk getting an elbow to the head or a knee in the back. The only problem is the ball has been repeatedly played over his head to the then unmarked striker. and he's widely been called our best defender.

Can I feel has a tendency to be very casual on the pitch, he'll be flicking or chipping the ball in inappropriate places. Sometimes it comes off and it's brilliant but often it puts us under pressure or needlessly gives the ball away. That casualness spreads into his defensive play, too often we've seen Can stand by and look at an opponent run into dangerous situations for it to be a coincidence. Henderson certainly isn't lazy and is one of the best I've seen at legally stopping opposition counter attacks but when they have control of the ball and the game has slowed down, as our "defensive" midfielder he has a tendency to be vacant from the critical areas and then we've got an inexperienced right back till possibly the end of the year and Moreno on the left on the whole has done alright this year but still has questionable decision-making at times.

We really do need someone to guide our young right backs through the game, reign Moreno's instincts in, get Matip to front up, make sure Can doesn't try to cut any defensive corners and get Henderson positioned correctly. Unfortuantly I don't think anyone can help Lovren with his technical errors. We play very open as it is and we're really dying for someone able to keep all the defensive pieces on the same page

 I also agree with the mentality part. I also feel that drive or dare I say winner mentality is missing. A huge part of defending is about mentality and having that desire to get to the ball before the opponent, especially at corners. We all know we're not the tallest team in the league, but we don't need to head the ball to clear the danger, just make sure the opposition can't. That could also include blocking of the run or jumping into the opponent but that would involve in them getting hurt and I fear too many players are thinking more about not getting hurt rather than doing whatever it takes to stop the shot.

Offline YJT

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1388 on: September 16, 2017, 12:46:22 am »


Just saw this photo and it pretty clearly shows why I singled out Matip and didn't Mention Lovren above. Yes he regularly makes basic mistakes but he's the only one of our defenders who's willing to put his body on the line and take one for the team. While Lovren is taking an elbow to the face Matip is ducking about of the way wincing.....

Offline sirKennyDaggers

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1389 on: September 16, 2017, 12:57:14 am »

Offline woof

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1390 on: September 16, 2017, 12:57:41 am »
The way we defend is different than others but its not bad. Last season we conceded 312 goal attempts. Its less than Chelsea, Tottenham and Man Utd.

So our system make us Concede less goal attempts yet we created 499 chances, only Tottenham created more 505 but when it comes to the challenges lost we lost 400 challenges , 15 teams are better than us.


Now someone may argue that our system give the opposition more cut clear chances than other teams but but the solution is not changing a great system but more like getting players who win more challenges.

Good analysis and I hope you're right. I think the Man City loss was due to one personnel short - an important cog was missing in the way we defend as a team. Back to your analysis - if it's true that getting better personnel will ensure less goals conceded, then what are we waiting for? Apart from Matip, our entire backline including the goalie are suspect (I do acknowledge that TAR and Joe Gomez are still young and learning).

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1391 on: September 16, 2017, 06:35:16 am »
We concede less chances because we have Firmino for a fucking start and players that press and push the opposition away from goal. Thank fuck for that actually because if we didn't we'd spend most the games picking the ball out of our own net. That's Klopp's main weapon in defense and he knows it.

Klopp is stubborn, I love him to bits but that's the character of the man who so what can you do.

Offline Keita Success

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1392 on: September 16, 2017, 07:27:43 am »
I don't think the problem is systemic. I'm certain it's an individual thing. I looked the the goals we conceded this season, and they've all - barring City - come from errors on our part, than any artistry.

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1393 on: September 16, 2017, 07:45:04 am »
I don't think the problem is systemic. I'm certain it's an individual thing. I looked the the goals we conceded this season, and they've all - barring City - come from errors on our part, than any artistry.

No its not, but it's two fold. On one hand we don't actually give that many opportunities to the other team because we usually keep them away from goal through the efforts of the forward line and midfield. However when the opposition do create something it's like you say, usually individual, a mistake from one of our own, than the system breaking down its self.


Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1394 on: September 16, 2017, 07:55:50 am »
I don't think the problem is systemic. I'm certain it's an individual thing. I looked the the goals we conceded this season, and they've all - barring City - come from errors on our part, than any artistry.

Why aren't we buying better individuals then? Individuals who are less error prone.

Cos lets face it by now we have a body of evidence that suggests Lovren, Matip, Moreno, Klavan, Mignolet, Karius are prone to these individual fuck ups...if we're saying the problem isn't the system.



Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1395 on: September 16, 2017, 08:03:19 am »
Why aren't we buying better individuals then? Individuals who are less error prone.

Cos lets face it by now we have a body of evidence that suggests Lovren, Matip, Moreno, Klavan, Mignolet, Karius are prone to these individual fuck ups...if we're saying the problem isn't the system.

Because Klopp believes he can coach them to not make mistakes. I think that's admirable but also slightly blinkered. In that case we could shop at conference level and coach them to be better. Some players are just inherently prone to mistakes and Lovren is one of them. It happens far too often for it to be a mere coincidence.

I don't think Matip is that error prone, maybe it just goes under my radar. I also don't think the sample size of Klavan is enough, granted there are better players out there but I don't think he's played enough to say he's actually prone to mistakes.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 08:07:30 am by Upinsmoke »

Offline Bolrick

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1396 on: September 16, 2017, 08:20:11 am »


Just saw this photo and it pretty clearly shows why I singled out Matip and didn't Mention Lovren above. Yes he regularly makes basic mistakes but he's the only one of our defenders who's willing to put his body on the line and take one for the team. While Lovren is taking an elbow to the face Matip is ducking about of the way wincing.....
Agreed.....i have been noticing matip ducking out with aerial battles for a while now.

Lovern for all his issues.....at least doesn't back away from rough challenges.

If it is up to me....i will replace matip too.

Expect burnley to put sam vokes near matip and win headers all day long today.  :butt

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Offline Wool

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1397 on: September 16, 2017, 08:29:29 am »
Because Klopp believes he can coach them to not make mistakes. I think that's admirable but also slightly blinkered.
Agree that it's naive. Have any of our defenders improved under Klopp? They're all making the same mistakes they have been for the last 3 or 4 seasons. The midfielders have undoubtedly improved, as have the forwards, but I don't see it with the defenders.

Offline Lastrador

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1398 on: September 16, 2017, 08:39:39 am »
I don't think the problem is systemic. I'm certain it's an individual thing. I looked the the goals we conceded this season, and they've all - barring City - come from errors on our part, than any artistry.
Do you expect our defenders and midfielders to not make mistakes in 90 minutes of football? That's completely ridiculous. There will always be mistakes, that's what the game is all about, forcing you opponent into making mistakes; By mistakes I'm not saying Lovren's type of mistakes but pushing players out of position, forcing them to turn over the ball, etc. Very few goals are product of individual brilliance or immaculate team play, that's why they're so cherished.

Your system or setup is supposed to prevent or mitigate those potential mistakes, making them less harmful for your side, but when you leave yourself so exposed as we do at times, every mistake is a potential goal scoring opportunity. That's why so many people have alluded to the quality of chances we concede as being a problem and that can't be only because of the personal. Those defensive frailties though are product of how we attack and how high and aggressively we press to win the ball to start those attacks.

I feel that one of the reasons we're so open is in part because we commit so many players into attacking positions, we could see that our defensive shield was playing through balls on the last third to Moreno against Sevilla for example, and the reason we commit so many players into attack positions is because we don't play with a recognizable goalscorer. We have many players than can score of course, but we don't rely on one or two players to get them. That approach has many advantages of course but also disadvantages, one being that you need to produce a high amount of chances per game and the other one that you let yourself vulnerable at the back.

It always comes back to finding the right balance though, we’re not there yet but hopefully we will soon. Would having more composed and tactically switched on players help? Of course, but we saw last season how a balanced system can make a defender that was considered extremely erratic as David Luiz look really solid.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 08:46:20 am by Lastrador »

Offline JJ Red

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Re: Liverpool defence thread
« Reply #1399 on: September 16, 2017, 08:41:07 am »
To play the way klopp wants to play you need world class central defenders with exceptional composure, concentration, and one-on-one capability. Or you need a well balanced midfield with a defensively minded midfielder to protect the back four. We have neither. We have defenders who lack concentration, don't talk to each other much and are prone to positional problems and general mistakes. In midfield we have some good players who do many roles quite well but not one specific role very well. I'm not including coutinho or lallana in this as they are very talented attacking mids.