Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles

[SquirrelandGman]

Its obvious we need a new goalkeeper.

Karius has never looked assured in any game hes played. Not once. He's known for his rushing out but I've yet to see that effectively?

People talk about how great he was before he joined us....so I dont know if the Goalkeeping coach is an issue like some have said here.

Simon looks assured for 2-3 games and then does a clanger on the 4th game.

Granted goalkeepers havent been our strong point since forever other than pepe doing a great job for a couple seasons.

Its something we have to fix if we want to challenge that much is clear.

[_Redman]

i think we might see Danny Ward get a chance as a no.1, he was good vs Atletico...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bV6CAJvnXk

[simesy]

Maybe now we have a vocal, dominating cb our keepers might feel a bit more assured. Look how Virgil communicated with karius tonight telling him to come for the ball on quite a few occasions.

[SquirrelandGman]

i think we might see Danny Ward get a chance as a no.1, he was good vs Atletico...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bV6CAJvnXk

Honestly wanted him to start the cup matches. Thought its unfair for him to only be selected for the league cup.

He'd be much better off playing for huddersfield on loan to see how he does it in the top league week in week out.

[chrisevry]

Oh Virgil. You little tinker. Aside from that lovely winner, you made me feel something I haven't for a while.

Reassurance.

For about five years I, like I assume many of us, have never felt comfortable. Our defence. Clumsy, crazy, flaccid, weak. I'm 37 now, and bar the Houllier days, I've never felt secure. And whilst this may be premature, foolhardy, idealistic, I felt it tonight. 75 is a lot. That's the mark when doing a degree  to get a first. A good one in fact. But based on tonight it's, dare I say it, cheap.

I felt it. It was great. I'm excited. And as so in life, if big Phil goes  we have the next challenge. But I don't want to dwell till it happens. I believe in klopp. He's clever.  Like I said, I'm excited. Viva virgil.

[him_15]

We need a better keeper now! Period.

[Kopenhagen]

Its obvious we need a new goalkeeper.

Karius has never looked assured in any game hes played. Not once. He's known for his rushing out but I've yet to see that effectively?

People talk about how great he was before he joined us....so I dont know if the Goalkeeping coach is an issue like some have said here.

Simon looks assured for 2-3 games and then does a clanger on the 4th game.

Granted goalkeepers havent been our strong point since forever other than pepe doing a great job for a couple seasons.

Its something we have to fix if we want to challenge that much is clear.

He's looked dodgy in his last two appearances, making some very strange decisions. Seems that no amount of appearances can calm his nerves. I can't see him being a long term option at all; he looks destined to be a number two at any top club.

Nice to see Virgil scream at him and give him a bollocking for his hesitation.

[rafathegaffa83]

Its obvious we need a new goalkeeper.

Karius has never looked assured in any game hes played. Not once. He's known for his rushing out but I've yet to see that effectively?

People talk about how great he was before he joined us....so I dont know if the Goalkeeping coach is an issue like some have said here.

Simon looks assured for 2-3 games and then does a clanger on the 4th game.

Granted goalkeepers havent been our strong point since forever other than pepe doing a great job for a couple seasons.

Its something we have to fix if we want to challenge that much is clear.

The one thing I've noticed with him is the amount of times he is absolutely rooted to the line when a shot comes in. Overall a poor night for him: didn't even move for the Everton goal; dropped a cross on Van Dijk's head; sliced one into the stands. He looks bereft of confidence

[Kopenhagen]

The one thing I've noticed with him is the amount of times he is absolutely rooted to the line when a shot comes in. Overall a poor night for him: didn't even move for the Everton goal; dropped a cross on Van Dijk's head; sliced one into the stands. He looks bereft of confidence

What I can't understand is why? He's been given every opportunity, hasn't let in any real clangers (outside of Moscow), and yet he still can't sort his game out?

[whtwht]

He's looked dodgy in his last two appearances, making some very strange decisions and looking jittery. Seems that no amount of appearances can calm his nerves. I can't see him being a long term option at all; he looks destined to be a number two at any top club.

Nice to see Virgil scream at him and give him a bollocking for his hesitation.

He's not recovered from Bournemouth. Definitely need a new keeper.

[Nobody cares what phone you have and that you are using the free version of Tapatalk]

[Redcap]

Let's give Karius at least until the end of Jan, especially with VVD now marshalling the defence, before we ditch him.

We're unlikely to get a keeper in this window regardless, unless, as I keep dreaming, we get ter Stegen in part exchange for Coutinho.

[Cu Chulainn]

Andrew Robertson was brilliant last night both defensively and offensively. Klopp is going to have a big selection headache when Moreno is available again!

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

Let's give Karius at least until the end of Jan, especially with VVD now marshalling the defence, before we ditch him.

We're unlikely to get a keeper in this window regardless, unless, as I keep dreaming, we get ter Stegen in part exchange for Coutinho.

That's one hell of a weird dream!   

[OOS]

Sort the keeper out and we are laughing.

[Red Beret]

I think all of our current defenders will improve markedly with Virgil now in place to give orders.  What we saw last night, I think, is the start of the transition period.  Some players are just used to their own pattern of play and will need time to adjust.  Some will adjust more quickly than others.

To my mind it's too early to say what we need until we see how our backline and keeper adjust to Virgil's presence.

[UntouchableLuis]

VVD and Matip are Klopp's first choice pairing, that's for sure.

Moreno vs Robertson
Trent vs Gomez

It's close between the fullbacks but if everyone was fit I think right now Robertson and Gomez would get the nod.

I don't see a way back for Clyne now.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Clyne and TAA will be the right-backs and Gomez will be among the central defenders challenging for a place. I woudln't be surprised if he's usurped Matip in a year's time. If we're seriously looking at competing in four competitions next year we may need five centre backs anyway, especially considering most of them have some substantial injuries behind them.

[JayH93]

Andrew Robertson was brilliant last night both defensively and offensively.

Our best player last night.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

I don't see a way back for Clyne now.

He'll get his injury sorted and train hard until he gets a chance.

Making out his LFC career is done (unless you have inside information about his injury being career ending?) is preposterous

[JayH93]

VVD and Matip are Klopp's first choice pairing, that's for sure.

Moreno vs Robertson
Trent vs Gomez

It's close between the fullbacks but if everyone was fit I think right now Robertson and Gomez would get the nod.

I don't see a way back for Clyne now.

Ideally Gomez will transition to CB in the next couple of years so there's every chance Clyne will be in direct competition with Trent.

[clinical]

Maybe another defender. But not priority. But let's be honest a keeper is.

[Kopenhagen]

VVD and Matip are Klopp's first choice pairing, that's for sure.

Moreno vs Robertson
Trent vs Gomez

It's close between the fullbacks but if everyone was fit I think right now Robertson and Gomez would get the nod.

I don't see a way back for Clyne now.

Wouldn't say it's for sure at all. Matip probably played because Klopp expected Everton to sit deep.

Matip is arguably the worst of our centre half options!

[Kashinoda]

I don't see a way back for Clyne now.

You think Clyne will lose his starting place to a center back, playing right back, who's made 2 glaring errors in the last 2 weeks? Or a similarly inexperienced 19 year old?

I'm loving both Gomez and Trent who've both come on leaps and bounds in no time at all, but Clyne is one of the best in his position in the league.

The competition for places in our back 4 is phenomenal though, good times ahead. 

[Dench57]

I'd like to see Gomez make that CB spot his when Clyne is back from injury.

We have 2 good left backs, when was the last time we could say that?

[Giono]

Andrew Robertson was brilliant last night both defensively and offensively. Klopp is going to have a big selection headache when Moreno is available again!

That is the good kind of problem to have.

Who would have thought that it would be a problem for Klopp at the begiining of the season. Seems that Klopp’s work with players creates problems for himself!

[devlin_adl]

Let's give Karius at least until the end of Jan, especially with VVD now marshalling the defence, before we ditch him.

We're unlikely to get a keeper in this window regardless, unless, as I keep dreaming, we get ter Stegen in part exchange for Coutinho.

Would love to spend some of that Coutinho money on a keeper.

[clinical]

Would love to spend some of that Coutinho money on a keeper.

I think everyone saying we'll have enough money left for other areas. People forget we're losing Can on a free.


When you say we are getting £142m for Can and Coutinho suddenly it's not a great deal. We have two players to replace.

Also of we miss out on top 4 now that £142m isn't looking a massive amount. As what do you gain in champions league £50m?

[Zlen]

Would love to spend some of that Coutinho money on a keeper.

Iˋd like to spend all of it and am certain we would be a better team with a world class goalkeeper but no Coutinho, then we were with him and our current goalies.

[PoetryInMotion]

I think everyone saying we'll have enough money left for other areas. People forget we're losing Can on a free.


When you say we are getting £142m for Can and Coutinho suddenly it's not a great deal. We have two players to replace.

Also of we miss out on top 4 now that £142m isn't looking a massive amount. As what do you gain in champions league £50m?

Does it mean we spent 75m on Matip, Milner and Van Dijk? It doesn't. I wish we stop tying unrelated deals meaninglessly.

Can was always leaving. We have an advanced midfielder in Keita. We always wanted one more deep midfielder. We wanted a GK if Karius can't step up. What we want remain the same regardless and we need to use the money for those positions.

And if we have some left, along with the summer kitty, we can also go for another big attacking player mid/forward as well as a proper replacement for Coutinho. Not a lot has changed except we need to replace Coutinho (probably with a younger players like Lemar/Fekir).

[Smudge]

Last night just proved how bad Matip really is. Shone next to Lovren and Klavan but garbage next to someone half decent in VVD.

[clinical]

Last night just proved how bad Matip really is. Shone next to Lovren and Klavan but garbage next to someone half decent in VVD.

Bollocks.

[Chalky Boots]

You think Clyne will lose his starting place to a center back, playing right back, who's made 2 glaring errors in the last 2 weeks? Or a similarly inexperienced 19 year old?

I'm loving both Gomez and Trent who've both come on leaps and bounds in no time at all, but Clyne is one of the best in his position in the league.

The competition for places in our back 4 is phenomenal though, good times ahead. 

Gomez, a Centre back who's played almost his whole senior career thus far at right back, who has made two far post errors that also happen to be something Clyne is incredibly weak at but beyond that looks a level above Clyne in literally everything else.

I bloody love Clyne, constant 7 out of 10 fullback, but Gomez is a freak of nature whose only getting better by the minute. It doesn't have to be at centre either, unless we want to discard the kind of careers Babbel, Ivanovic and Abidàl had. Not to mention Clyne is tiny compared to Joe; surely it's no coincidence that we look better defending set pieces when we've a back four with 3 of them 6'2 and over.

It's stupid to right Clyne off by the way but he's got a 20 year old who's already playing at his level despite only being back playing 6 months from a career threatening injury.

[PoetryInMotion]

Gomez, a Centre back who's played almost his whole senior career thus far at right back, who has made two far post errors that also happen to be something Clyne is incredibly weak at but beyond that looks a level above Clyne in literally everything else.

I bloody love Clyne, constant 7 out of 10 fullback, but Gomez is a freak of nature whose only getting better by the minute. It doesn't have to be at centre either, unless we want to discard the kind of careers Babbel, Ivanovic and Abidàl had. Not to mention Clyne is tiny compared to Joe; surely it's no coincidence that we look better defending set pieces when we've a back four with 3 of them 6'2 and over.

It's stupid to right Clyne off by the way but he's got a 20 year old who's already playing at his level despite only being back playing 6 months from a career threatening injury.

Gomez is not playing to Clyne's level. Clyne used to be extremely tight to the attacker, didn't let opposition dribble past him/cross past him much. Gomez isn't that tight at all. All nuances hard to see, but they're there and much more than just far-post defending - situations that probably arise 2/3 times a game maximum.

Gomez, as good as he is, is 20, we as fans need to stop asking too much out of him and let him develop and improve before we thrust him with taglines such as 'first choice RB/CB for 10 years). Even his first choice position isn't clear yet.

As for set-piece defending, full backs are often not central and the main focus. Teams even use their strikers in a more important role in set-piece defending than they use full backs, and most coaches know that. We still struggled in set-pieces at the start of the reason, so Clyne playing or not has much less to do with it. Take off Lovren+Firmino and play Gomez at RB, and we will still struggle with set-pieces because Lovren and Firmino make a lot of defensive clearances from corners as they're the best in the team at it and are instructed to do so. Now with the addition of VVD, we'll be even better and that will be the case even when Clyne returns.

[Chalky Boots]

Gomez is not playing to Clyne's level. Clyne used to be extremely tight to the attacker, didn't let opposition dribble past him/cross past him much. Gomez isn't that tight at all. All nuances hard to see, but they're there and much more than just far-post defending - situations that probably arise 2/3 times a game maximum.

Like I qualified, I love Clyne but Gomez - currently - is - save for 1v1's - playing at or better than Clyne has for Liverpool in areas like distribution, anticipation, carrying the ball up the field and ball retention. It's not at all shameful to admit it, doesn't matter that Gomez is only 20, he's a special talent and too often on here we play that down by nitpicking. Gomez is maybe weak with balls on the blind side over the shoulder at the moment, which is exactly what Clyne is weak at only he's at a further disadvantage because he's 5 inches smaller than Gomez.

I take your point about fullbacks, but that's generally because they're the smaller players on the pitch which means they're moved on to the outside to defend set piece situations, or they cover the goaline. Beyond that though there's absolutely no way having someone at fullback who's tall and strong in the air doesn't help defensive situations. Again, look at the likes of Barca and Chelsea and they were benefited by having the likes of Ivanovic and Abidal playing wide over the likes of Beletti or Sylvinho.

What Gomez doesn't have currently is Clynes consistency through matches but it's gradually coming; if he was currently playing for another club and producing the same I don't think anyone would scoff at the suggestion that he's better than Clyne at the moment; statistically speaking his per 90 metrics are way ahead of Clyne (last season) in things like Aerial duels, take ons, interceptions, tackling in the league alone.

I was like you at the start, I didn't want to build expectation because he was both young and had what was essentially an 18month layoff but the way he's come back I don't think it's absurd to say the defence benefits by having him in it at this point and that he's the perfect complement to the more attacking fullbacks in Robertson and Moreno.

[DanA]

Gomez is not playing to Clyne's level. Clyne used to be extremely tight to the attacker, didn't let opposition dribble past him/cross past him much. Gomez isn't that tight at all. All nuances hard to see, but they're there and much more than just far-post defending - situations that probably arise 2/3 times a game maximum.

Gomez, as good as he is, is 20, we as fans need to stop asking too much out of him and let him develop and improve before we thrust him with taglines such as 'first choice RB/CB for 10 years). Even his first choice position isn't clear yet.

As for set-piece defending, full backs are often not central and the main focus. Teams even use their strikers in a more important role in set-piece defending than they use full backs, and most coaches know that. We still struggled in set-pieces at the start of the reason, so Clyne playing or not has much less to do with it. Take off Lovren+Firmino and play Gomez at RB, and we will still struggle with set-pieces because Lovren and Firmino make a lot of defensive clearances from corners as they're the best in the team at it and are instructed to do so. Now with the addition of VVD, we'll be even better and that will be the case even when Clyne returns.

Gomez plays a key role at set pieces and Clyne doesn’t, it doesn’t matter what “most” fullbacks do when we’re talking about two specific players.

[mrantarctica]

We have a good group that will develop with time IMHO. Defenders hit their peak a little later generally.

Clyne 26, TAA 19, Virgil 26, Matip 26, Lovren 28, Gomez 20, Klavan 32, Robertson 23, Moreno 25

Weakest links there are Klavan and Lovren who have their moments. I'm sure there'll be more comings and goings in the next 1-2 seasons there anyway. The others could well improve with experience. If Clyne returns the same player then we've got a pretty steady defence.

Where we need to improve is either side of our defence, at GK and in the deep CM/DM roles

[Dench57]

Can't find our goalkeeper threads so I assume they've been locked.
Mignolet is "considering his future" after being dropped for Karius. Wonder if Barca want him?

Liverpool's Simon Mignolet says 'rotation is not healthy – this cannot last'
Belgian admits he is considering his future at the club
‘Of course I am not happy but respect the trainer’s decision’

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jan/16/liverpools-simon-mignolet-rotating-is-not-healthy-this-situation-cannot-last

[stevensr123]

The defence is still poor at their concentration levels, they can go 80 minutes without much hassle and good defending, but then go to shit for 5 minutes in the match and concede sloppy goals.

 VVD will go along way to helping that (with his organisation). We Just need a goal keeper behind them as a last resort. because it seems any half decent chance the opposition gets (and we dont give them much chances) results in a goal.

[devlin_adl]

Can't find our goalkeeper threads so I assume they've been locked.
Mignolet is "considering his future" after being dropped for Karius. Wonder if Barca want him?
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jan/16/liverpools-simon-mignolet-rotating-is-not-healthy-this-situation-cannot-last

Can’t blame him for the feelings he expresses, but neither of them are good enough.

[djphal]

Matip is arguably the worst of our centre half options!

Worse than Lovren?

Complete bollocks