Author Topic: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)  (Read 803077 times)

Offline Schmidt

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3600 on: May 14, 2018, 12:42:39 am »
Another very good season for him, and still with the positions he gets in it feels like he could go up a level if he was a little more decisive around the opposition goal. I wonder if it's a consequence of his safety first role in midfield that he's at times hesitant in the box, like he has to worry about whether he'll be caught out of position if he gives up the ball.

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3601 on: May 14, 2018, 12:43:19 am »
I do recall in parts of last season and early this season where people kept complaining about this pickup from a relegated team.

oh there's a couple posters who shall remain nameless  who probably don't even dare come into this thread now cos they got shown up so badly about him  ;)

Thing is, he was very good last season too.  Just so understated. This season he had a few struggles, and with that illness that affected him so much for weeks to deal with, its actually very cool how he's bounced back so well. He's a terrific player.

Offline U-238A

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3602 on: May 14, 2018, 12:59:20 am »
Does all the work that doesn't fit into anything statistically. Re-watch any of the UCL games he played in. He covers for the full backs tremendously. You don't get a tick on some stat box for covering a runner or overload for a teammate or cutting passing lanes to prevent a dangerous attack.

Mind boggling that almost everyone knows we need a pure no.6 yet some people wonder why the no.6 isn't influencing the game in an attacking sense or going forward enough  :butt

We should put Firmino in there. He's the perfect no.6. Great tackler and presser AND scores loads of goals and assists too.


Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3603 on: May 14, 2018, 01:47:49 am »
It's a problem when you try to measure the tactical side of the players game with data because almost all of the data is actions in relation to the ball whereas the tactical side of players games are general the players actions in relation to space or the positioning of other players on both teams.

Unless you have a keen tactical eye, you won't notice high level tactical players until they aren't there.  Because even if you know what you are looking for, your attention automatically gets drawn to the ball. When I am doing roundtable posts, I usually give the game a second, sometimes third watch. Often my notes on a first watch contains just a few tines - usually things like "fuck sake Gomez" or "Run Can!". Because when you are emotionally invested in the game, you cannot help but react to what is happening on the ball. It also just isn't an enjoyable way to watch the game either. Watching who is losing the teams shape, who is knitting it together, that sort of thing.
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Offline Giono

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3604 on: May 14, 2018, 02:10:19 am »
Exactly. It’s thankless stuff in general. I was shocked sunday that the pundit on my NBC feed was  marvelling at Lallana’s movement off the ball after he came on. Not the usual pundit fare. He was actually talking anout intelligent movement. Compare that to Dean Saunders who I heard later in the day on talkshite lamenting that Liverpool would have challenged for the title if it wasn’t for Moreno. The usual ignorant witchunt masquerading as analysis.


Back to Gini, I did see a pundit earlier this season raving about how Keita was controlling the midfield during a Euoropa League telecast. He showed some clips of what he meant and finished by saying he couldn’t wait for next season to see him and Gini Wijnaldum bossing a midfield together...




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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3605 on: May 14, 2018, 02:21:44 am »
Exactly. It’s thankless stuff in general. I was shocked sunday that the pundit on my NBC feed was  marvelling at Lallana’s movement off the ball after he came on. Not the usual pundit fare. He was actually talking anout intelligent movement. Compare that to Dean Saunders who I heard later in the day on talkshite lamenting that Liverpool would have challenged for the title if it wasn’t for Moreno. The usual ignorant witchunt masquerading as analysis.


Back to Gini, I did see a pundit earlier this season raving about how Keita was controlling the midfield during a Euoropa League telecast. He showed some clips of what he meant and finished by saying he couldn’t wait for next season to see him and Gini Wijnaldum bossing a midfield together...

I heard similar from Stefan Freund I think earlier in the season. Then I noticed more what he meant watching Leipzig dismantle Bayern. I watched that game for about 7 hours as part of something I was working on in terms of trying to break a game down into data. It became really noticeable how important having tactically intelligent midfielders with Keita is. Keita could then focus 100% on the ball while his team mates, particularly Demme, moved in relation to him to stay compact and support him. Laimer did well too but Demme was the star there. He was brilliant.

Speaking of brilliant movement - Solanke for the opening goal was delicious. He does two things in one movement - he moves off to the side. This will either leave him unmarked in a perfect position to receive and feed the ball forward (as he did), or he drags someone to mark him which creates a big hole in the middle. Was just brilliant movement and again shows why I think tactically, he is on another level to young forwards who come through, particularly in England. I think he is this generations Sheringham which is high fucking praise. You expect most target men to want to be staying central to receive, turn and shoot. Solanke doesn't think like that at all, instead he moves away from the crucial area in the hope of creating space there or providing an unmarked option in a dangerous position to receive between the lines and feed the final ball. Brilliant.
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Offline leroy

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3606 on: May 14, 2018, 02:58:04 am »
So, so strong on the ball. Shields it so well and nigh on impossible to wrestle off it. Tidy on possession and covers a lot of ground.

Ridiculously strong given his size.  You see a lot of smaller guys using agility to throw off bigger opponents but Gini does it with and sheer body strength and balance at times.

Offline jckliew

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3607 on: May 14, 2018, 04:38:14 am »
Biggest challenge of his midfield life coming up in 12 days
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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3608 on: May 14, 2018, 10:36:53 am »
He was incredible yesterday, Gini always turns up for the big games so lets hope he puts in the performance of his life in Kiev!

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3609 on: May 14, 2018, 10:42:01 am »
He was incredible yesterday, Gini always turns up for the big games so lets hope he puts in the performance of his life in Kiev!

I was reminded he played a fair few games for the Dutch at the last World Cup and they did pretty damn well.
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3610 on: May 14, 2018, 10:47:30 am »
He was incredible yesterday, Gini always turns up for the big games so lets hope he puts in the performance of his life in Kiev!

You wonder how bad the illness he had a couple of months ago was but it looks like he's finally shaken it off.

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3611 on: May 14, 2018, 11:22:13 am »
a massive arse and uses it very well ;D

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3612 on: May 14, 2018, 11:25:28 am »
a massive arse and uses it very well ;D

This isn't the Brazilian porn review thread hassinator. How lost are you? :D
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Offline Nick110581

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3613 on: May 14, 2018, 11:26:29 am »
He was incredible yesterday, Gini always turns up for the big games so lets hope he puts in the performance of his life in Kiev!

He’s magic.
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Offline Giono

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3614 on: May 14, 2018, 11:37:11 am »
I was reminded he played a fair few games for the Dutch at the last World Cup and they did pretty damn well.

He scored against Brazil in the 3rd place playoff.
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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3615 on: May 14, 2018, 11:42:47 am »
First name on the midfield for Kiev
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I've got a feeling that Origi is the real deal, from a couple of games I watched but mainly his interviews there seems to be something about him.

Offline nico 8

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3616 on: May 14, 2018, 12:24:52 pm »
Yet - with all the aforementioned acknowledgments and recent appreciation of his ability and general play, he was rated the 2nd worst outfield performer this week end on another Liverpool website that aggregates the player's score / rating from 9 different websites, the majority of them being Liverpool websites. I place no value on these ratings but it does reflect the general confirmation bias and the failings of our supporters to firstly keep an open mind and secondly, to appreciate the finer aspects in general patterns and the tactical aspects of play. It would appear that the only stats that are of importance are goals, assists, clean sheets and then errors- who to blame. Once you great - you are great; once you are boxed in as crap/ average- you struggle to shift that mindset.
With better players coming in, the patronizing mindset is that it would be ok to keep Gini on as a squad player. With stronger/ better players- Gini, I believe, will play more and almost be indispensable as to how we wish to play. Typical player that is underrated and not appreciated (error in original text rectified) until he doesn't play.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 02:01:32 pm by nico 8 »

Offline Giono

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3617 on: May 14, 2018, 01:12:13 pm »
Yet - with all the aforementioned acknowledgments and recent appreciation of his ability and general play, he was rated the 2nd worst outfield performer this week end on another Liverpool website that aggregates the player's score / rating from 9 different websites, the majority of them being Liverpool websites. I place no value on these ratings but it does reflect the general confirmation bias and the failings of our supporters to firstly keep an open mind and secondly, to appreciate the finer aspects in general patterns and the tactical aspects of play. It would appear that the only stats that are of importance are goals, assists, clean sheets and then errors- who to blame. Once you great - you are great; once you are boxed in as crap/ average- you struggle to shift that mindset.
With better players coming in, the patronizing mindset is that it would be ok to keep Gini on as a squad player. With stronger/ better players- Gini, I believe, will play more and almost be indispensable as to how we wish to play. Typical player that is underrated and not appreciative until he doesn't play.

Not surprising. Many sites, judging from their twitter accounts, pick Robertson as our man of the match almost every match. Not that Robertson has been poor, but he doesn’t even have to play well for the echo chamber to kick in. Unfortunately the focused internet marketing of websites and their twitter accounts create echo chambers that play to different brands of opinions. They are not into challenging the opinions of readers.

That’s why RAWK, including people whose opinions I don’t like, is valuable as there is a discussion with nobody looking for ‘hits’ or ‘followers’. I don’t use the ignore feature too as that just creates a cozy echo chamber and that isn’t why I come in here.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3618 on: May 14, 2018, 02:09:16 pm »
He's one of the most important players we have - and certainly, in the absence of Lallana, our most valuable midfielder. The great thing is that he looks reasonably fresh too.

The fella is a great reader of the game. He knows where to be on the pitch at any single moment and has the legs to get there. 

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Offline nico 8

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3619 on: May 14, 2018, 02:10:06 pm »
Not surprising. Many sites, judging from their twitter accounts, pick Robertson as our man of the match almost every match. Not that Robertson has been poor, but he doesn’t even have to play well for the echo chamber to kick in. Unfortunately the focused internet marketing of websites and their twitter accounts create echo chambers that play to different brands of opinions. They are not into challenging the opinions of readers.

That’s why RAWK, including people whose opinions I don’t like, is valuable as there is a discussion with nobody looking for ‘hits’ or ‘followers’. I don’t use the ignore feature too as that just creates a cozy echo chamber and that isn’t why I come in here.

Agreed- and why this site is the only one have registered to. Have popped in at others but it really is a mere regurgitation of the mainstream narrative. Take Solanke for example- he has had his critics and I too was concerned whether he has a future with us. My thought process being, given his age, that he needs to go out on loan. He needs to be playing. Yet, I saw something in his performance yesterday that I may need to re-visit that mindset. His movement, in my opinion, appears to have improved in a way that a Klopp style requires. He is adapting his game, learning and improving. He might not have learnt that playing elsewhere.

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3620 on: May 14, 2018, 02:12:59 pm »
Been fabulous over the last few months, long may it continue.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3621 on: May 14, 2018, 02:15:03 pm »
He's got a great ability to get out of tight spots, leaving two of the opposition floundering in no man's land.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3622 on: May 14, 2018, 02:18:03 pm »
He's one of the most important players we have - and certainly, in the absence of Lallana, our most valuable midfielder.


Amazing how carried away some LFC fans get about him (no doubt this in part a reaction to how he's down played by some which is natural) 

He remains the least effective, most passive midfielder we have on the ball - this seems to pass some of you by when judging him (while being used as a stick to beat other midfielders)
He produces almost nothing when he has it that hurts the opposition - and this includes being involved in moves that lead to chances later - this is true not only in a vacuum but relative to our other midfielders playing in the same team and set up

He's without doubt improved on his early season form which is great for us and him... but he's oddly over rated on here and more properly rated elsewhere

Still no matter how anyone views him he'll be important for the final as will the rest of our few remaining midfielders so I hope he has the best game of his career

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3623 on: May 14, 2018, 02:25:36 pm »
Amazing how carried away some LFC fans get about him (no doubt this in part a reaction to how he's down played by some which is natural) 

He remains the least effective, most passive midfielder we have on the ball - this seems to pass some of you by when judging him (while being used as a stick to beat other midfielders)
He produces almost nothing when he has it that hurts the opposition - and this includes being involved in moves that lead to chances later - this is true not only in a vacuum but relative to our other midfielders playing in the same team and set up

He's without doubt improved on his early season form which is great for us and him... but he's oddly over rated on here and more properly rated elsewhere

Still no matter how anyone views him he'll be important for the final as will the rest of our few remaining midfielders so I hope he has the best game of his career


Jack, no disrespect intended by this, but the moment you start to admire Wijnaldum is the moment I begin to question his contribution to the team. Long may you be left in the dark!

Come on Gini, lad!
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Offline JackWard33

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3624 on: May 14, 2018, 02:33:25 pm »
Jack, no disrespect intended by this, but the moment you start to admire Wijnaldum is the moment I begin to question his contribution to the team. Long may you be left in the dark!

Come on Gini, lad!

Yup and you with Henderson :)

No disrespect taken I'm aware my views are well known... I'll just never be on board with a midfielder not playing the deepest lying MF position and affecting the game so little with the ball. I felt the same when Dembele was described as 'the most complete midfielder in the world'. Unless you're playing primarily as a destroyer you've got to affect the game with the ball to be elite.
Gini does this least of all our midfielders (yup including Henderson who plays deeper)
As I've posted many times you and other Gini fans get to watch what Naby does in the same position in the same team next season which ... you know.. should be fun

I'll stop now as no one is changing their mind...

Good luck to him and the rest of the midfield unit in the final - I think him, Henderson and Milner should be able to dominate the Real midfield physically; the 3 of them being defensively good enough will be the challenge.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Georginio Wijnaldum
« Reply #3625 on: May 14, 2018, 03:01:41 pm »
Jack, no disrespect intended by this, but the moment you start to admire Wijnaldum is the moment I begin to question his contribution to the team. Long may you be left in the dark!

Come on Gini, lad!

If you don't see the game tactically, you cannot see the tactical aspects of a midfielders job. Thus you are left only discussing about which aspects of their job you can see in a spreadsheet and dismissing what you cannot see there as irrelevant. Some sort of measurement myopia.

The tactical ability of a player is hard enough to define never mind effectively measure. But not only is a key to understanding football at a higher level, without it in your side you find your system doesn't function as your midfield fails in each of it's key tasks. Public-facing analytics only measure interactions with the ball. Which means fans who understand football using analytics available to them only understand the game in relation to interactions with the ball.

The best way to think of it is this, if you have 11 players chasing the ball then you have no tactical intelligence. Therefore we accept that it must be important. If you have one player chasing the ball, then he will get on the ball a lot and show well in terms of analytics, but likely has little tactical intelligence. Therefore it is about finding that right mixture of players who move in relation to the ball and players who move in relation to their team mates and space.

For every player whose movements will reduce your compactness and lose your team shape, you need another nearby to make sure those holes are being plugged. For every player who crowds the player on the ball demanding it, there needs to be another moving away from the ball to move opposition players out of the carriers path and open up passing angles for them.

The one in both instances who is moving in relation to the ball will likely have a larger impact on the game in relation to the ball. The one moving in relation to space and the players on the pitch will likely have a bigger impact on performances and results. Which is why you miss tactically intelligent players when they are not on the pitch even if some who only understand the game in numbers find it difficult to measure what they do.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 03:24:31 pm by BabuYagu »
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3626 on: May 14, 2018, 03:14:10 pm »
I feel like I'm somewhere in between Jack and Babu/Giono/Nici on Gini but have found myself agreeing with Jack on here because I do see him getting over-praised for rather basic things on here which other players don't.

I think his best performances for us this season may well have come in a double pivot alongside Henderson or Can, when that tactical intelligence in terms of moving into spaces off the ball and his incredible ability to shield the ball when he's on it becomes all the more important. There's also less emphasis on him to be directly creative - as Jack rightly asserts he's rather weak at - from that position.

City shouldn't be used with a stick to beat Wijnaldum or any of our players. They're an amazing side who deserve their domestic success. But equally it is hard not to look at their 4-3-3 with Silva and KDB and see Gini as an area/individual we're losing a lot of attacking potential.

Admittedly I don't think our attacking midfielders would ever get the central space those two do as Mané/Salah are used more narrowly than Sane/Sterling, but I think Gini's output in terms of both progressing play and being a direct goal threat has gradually regressed during his time here. 1 goal and 2 assists for example simply isn't at the level we require if he is to be used in that role going forward.

I have sympathy with him on that because his role has chopped and changed quite a lot. I do respect the water-carrying role he has performed at times this season. But I still don't think that excuses him, at times, passing the buck when we win the ball back. Swansea away was the worst example of this. You can't do it at this level anymore - every player has to be able to pull defenders out & give them something to think about in order for a side to function as a whole, because the level of defensive organisation is generally very good. In fairness to Wijnaldum I have seen an improvement on this recently.

Ultimately though I think he's a really useful player to have around - you can always rely on him to heavily contribute in fast-moving, high-level games of football and he does throw in the odd classy performance elsewhere like yesterday - I just don't see him as a first name on the teamsheet type player which regularly gets thrown around on here. Absolutely nothing wrong with that by the way, I'm always moaning about our squad depth, and Wijnaldum is your archetypal squad player able to perform a number of roles to a decent level
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 03:21:55 pm by LallanaInPyjamas »

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3627 on: May 14, 2018, 03:20:31 pm »
 ;D  ;D  ;D That title SP!

I envisage some people having their wives glancing at their screen and asking "what the fuck? reviewing brazilian porn?"
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Offline McMahon

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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3628 on: May 14, 2018, 03:21:07 pm »
A team full of Ronaldo's you wouldn't win to often, a team full of Gini's you would take some beating. Like the guy and respect what he brings to the squad.

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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3629 on: May 14, 2018, 04:49:38 pm »
It's a problem when you try to measure the tactical side of the players game with data because almost all of the data is actions in relation to the ball whereas the tactical side of players games are general the players actions in relation to space or the positioning of other players on both teams.

Unless you have a keen tactical eye, you won't notice high level tactical players until they aren't there.  Because even if you know what you are looking for, your attention automatically gets drawn to the ball. When I am doing roundtable posts, I usually give the game a second, sometimes third watch. Often my notes on a first watch contains just a few tines - usually things like "fuck sake Gomez" or "Run Can!". Because when you are emotionally invested in the game, you cannot help but react to what is happening on the ball. It also just isn't an enjoyable way to watch the game either. Watching who is losing the teams shape, who is knitting it together, that sort of thing.
It's funny, but in my job, stats are also massively misleading! :-)

There's nothing like watching a player to appreciate his movement, understanding of the game and all-round ability to play football - read the opposition, close them down, choose the right angle to tackle, etc. Stats can only show so much - I'm not saying they should not be used, but give me watching a player all day long.
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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3630 on: May 14, 2018, 04:53:31 pm »
I do see him getting over-praised for rather basic things on here which other players don't.

But this is one thing that is massively overlooked in today's game (and I include Rugby here as well) - The ability to do the simple, basic things exceptionally well is very few and far between and is, for me, one of the pleasures of watching such a player. This is why take him out the side and you notice it. Ray Kennedy was the same by the way, as was Didi Hamann.
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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3631 on: May 14, 2018, 04:53:52 pm »
It's funny, but in my job, stats are also massively misleading! :-)

There's nothing like watching a player to appreciate his movement, understanding of the game and all-round ability to play football - read the opposition, close them down, choose the right angle to tackle, etc. Stats can only show so much - I'm not saying they should not be used, but give me watching a player all day long.

that's the thing isn't it. Stats are great and yes sometimes really damn useful to illustrate a point. But when they are used as the be all and end all, then it's not so good.

Also, it takes the fun out of watching a player :D Imaging basing your opinion on players on numbers, that's just kinda a shame.

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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3632 on: May 14, 2018, 05:47:57 pm »
that's the thing isn't it. Stats are great and yes sometimes really damn useful to illustrate a point. But when they are used as the be all and end all, then it's not so good.

Also, it takes the fun out of watching a player :D Imaging basing your opinion on players on numbers, that's just kinda a shame.

The stat I like is how often we win when he plays. I also appreciate how often he starts (when healthy) as that means Klopp considers him important to our tactics.
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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3633 on: May 14, 2018, 06:12:27 pm »
He's been asked to play at least a few different midfield roles this season and he's done it to a good level. What we're seeing now is a player back on form, consistently playing and back to full health. I'm not surprised he's playing as good as he is.
A big shout to those who appreciate what he does and those who respect the tactical side of things, most likely the same people.
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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3634 on: May 14, 2018, 06:36:56 pm »
The stat I like is how often we win when he plays. I also appreciate how often he starts (when healthy) as that means Klopp considers him important to our tactics.

I wondered whether our performances also dipped when he didn't play so quickly totalled up the xg values involved when he didn't play vs when he did on understat.

With Gini Starting (per 90)
Expected Goals For = 2,110
Expected Goals Against = 0,927
Expected Points = 2,142

With Gini Not Starting(per 90)
Expected Goals For = 1,864
Expected Goals Against = 0,974
Expected Points = 1,959

So not only do we score less, concede more and get less points when he doesn't play, our underlying performance metrics likewise drop off when he is not on the pitch. Now, when you consider he is our worst midfielder, you would expect that to go the other way rather than all available team metrics improving when he is on the pitch. It's almost as if there are unmeasurable actions players undertake on the pitch which somehow improve the team while in spite of their own personal numbers. That focusing on maintaining good tactical organisation and compactness instead of moving in relation to the ball has a net benefit to the team as a whole.

It reminds me of the argument that Benteke wasn't a problem because his numbers were good. It ignored the fact that everyone elses numbers tanked when he played. Wijnaldum is this in reverse - a multiplier improving the system. A player who doesn't go chasing after the ball at the wrong time opening up our formation. Or standing on the toes of the defenders demanding the ball off them. Or breaking into the box leaving when we would be exposed on the counter. A player who thinks then acts.
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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3635 on: May 15, 2018, 01:10:15 pm »
The title of this thread should have been given to the tactics threads that become transfer threads.



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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3636 on: May 15, 2018, 01:32:49 pm »

Ultimately though I think he's a really useful player to have around - you can always rely on him to heavily contribute in fast-moving, high-level games of football and he does throw in the odd classy performance elsewhere like yesterday - I just don't see him as a first name on the teamsheet type player which regularly gets thrown around on here. Absolutely nothing wrong with that by the way, I'm always moaning about our squad depth, and Wijnaldum is your archetypal squad player able to perform a number of roles to a decent level

Fair assessment of him and his place in our squad.
More positive than me - of course - because you've left out the balancing  'odd classy performance elsewhere' with the 'completely anonymous ghost performances elsewhere' .... he's well capable of both as we've seen this season
One thing he does deserve credit for which also makes him a valuable squad member is his fitness - on a micro level (over 90 minutes in an intense system) and macro - he seems to always be available. He's probably also on a reasonably cheap contract relative to the squad - cool to keep him around for another year to cover for the Keita suspensions :)

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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3637 on: May 15, 2018, 02:40:18 pm »
need a big game from him in final, we need him at his best where you cant get the ball off him

he is a big game player though
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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3638 on: May 15, 2018, 02:55:33 pm »
Fair assessment of him and his place in our squad.
More positive than me - of course - because you've left out the balancing  'odd classy performance elsewhere' with the 'completely anonymous ghost performances elsewhere' .... he's well capable of both as we've seen this season
One thing he does deserve credit for which also makes him a valuable squad member is his fitness - on a micro level (over 90 minutes in an intense system) and macro - he seems to always be available. He's probably also on a reasonably cheap contract relative to the squad - cool to keep him around for another year to cover for the Keita suspensions :)


Yet- if I am not mistaken- he has played the most minutes behind Salah and Firmino. If it was anyone else, he would be deemed to be a starter and not a squad player. The thing is that the game has moved on from the first xi but rather to a squad where horses for courses apply. This would apply in the big games and cup finals as well. It will depend on tactics and game plan as to who starts and who is to come on. He may not be your cup of tea or he may be improved upon (like almost every player)- you have to ask why Klopp plays him that often as well as question your ability in understanding his role in the team and what your expectation is.

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Re: Brazilian Porn Review Topic (Warning: may contain Wijnaldum)
« Reply #3639 on: May 15, 2018, 03:49:32 pm »
Yet- if I am not mistaken- he has played the most minutes behind Salah and Firmino. If it was anyone else, he would be deemed to be a starter and not a squad player. The thing is that the game has moved on from the first xi but rather to a squad where horses for courses apply. This would apply in the big games and cup finals as well. It will depend on tactics and game plan as to who starts and who is to come on. He may not be your cup of tea or he may be improved upon (like almost every player)- you have to ask why Klopp plays him that often as well as question your ability in understanding his role in the team and what your expectation is.

Gini is a controller. He has the shortest average pass length and highest accuracy of all our midfielders.

If his starting position is 15 yards higher, like last season, then he is playing little 10 yard passes into forwards and racking up the assists - he got 9 last season.

If his starting role is deeper, like this season, then he is playing little 10-15 yard passes into the players between the lines to feed the strikers. Unfortunately this season we have a chronic lack of players who can play between the lines and a player schooled in Dutch possession based football isn't about to start trying to break 3 lines of the opponents formation with very low success rate passes.

I mentioned earlier in the season before the City games, JCB and I were looking at penetrative passes - passes that advance an attack within the opposition shape taking the ball closer to the opponents goal. Gini had the largest success rate in our team of such passes (Solanke scored well also, albeit with limited pitch time).

Likewise in games where sides press us, like Sevilla away, Man City away, Roma away, he is our only midfielder whose game doesn't fall to pieces and they fail to keep the ball.

It reminds me somewhat of when Pep left Barca and things changed under Martino. Xavi and Iniesta "regressed". I remember Iniesta finished a season with 1 assist in the league. But both of their goals and assist numbers dropped off. But they were playing more as transition midfielders who were getting the ball forward quicker to their attackers rather than advanced controllers who would patiently build play up and get on the ball more in and around the box. Their role changed therefore their numbers changed too. Just as Gini's has changed this season.

Gini will consistently play the ball 10-15 yards from where he receives it with extremely high accuracy regardless of opponent or pressure he is under. His starting location and nearby team mates will dictate whether he is linking play or creating chances. If you play him with Milner & Trent - the ball is going wide as they are players who gravitate wide to create. If you play him with Coutinho and Lallana, he will look for them between the lines as that is where they gravitate to to create.

Again, if your approach to football is one of measurement myopia then it's hard to comprehend what tactically intelligent players do. The solution isn't to create derogatory nicknames for such players to cover up your own inadequacies, instead assume there is more to the game beyond your comprehension and try to expand your knowledge. With many people it is very much an area of known unknowns vs unknown unknowns. I understand the game better on an analytical level than any other level given my background working in the finance sector. But it is just a one of many levels on which the game can be understood. At the moment it provides an edge with clubs because they already have the tactical knowledge but without the data. However, strip away the tactical knowledge and you are going to run into some problems pretty quickly.

Quote
“When I was 13 years old I used to keep notes on all my teammates,” Benitez adds. “I still have the books.
“At 13, I went to Real Madrid and started taking notes. I was giving points and marks to our players after every game, writing down the top scorers. I still have everything. When I was 16, I was coach in the summer and a player. When I was at university at 17, 18, I was player, coach, manager.
“I used to put all the training sessions on to a computer, a Commodore 64, I didn’t play games on it, I put information on there. It was very basic, but at this time I was using computers when nobody was using computers.
“What I learned is that you have to be careful with computers. They give too much information. You need to be sure you have the right information and at the same time, one thing I don’t want to do - and it’s a key thing - is lose the feeling.
“I know how you feel when you make a mistake. Like a lot of professionals, I can hear when you are kicking the ball properly or not (he smacks his hands together), just by the sound.
“I like to see players. We see the players and know if they are good or bad. You can’t say I don’t want the information, you need the data, but there is more.
“When I joined Newcastle, I asked for all the data about players in the Championship, so I have the best stats in the Championships and I was watching players and talking to people and saying ‘what do you know about this player’. That human part is crucial.
“You can watch a player and have a feeling and after you can see the stats. That is fine, but it’s not just the stats. You have to watch the players.”
People trying to use analytics as the only way to understand the game are likely just arrogant people who aren't even aware of what little they know.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 08:56:22 pm by BabuYagu »
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