Topic: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell

[Ratboy3G]

Absolutely, always support the fam, blud.

 

[Cpt_Reina]

I don't think anyone has said that. What some have said, is that Klopp seems to be okay with certain tactical parts of Moreno's game that some of his critics focus on - getting forward at every opportunity, even with some degree of risk. Clearly no one is happy with ridiculous challenges giving away penalties under little danger.

Klopp clearly don't agree with most of you and thankfully he's the one in charge. We have the money and no one in the world can't tell me we can't find a LB if Moreno is as bad as you all make out yet until this point we haven't.

Can understand people's frustration with Moreno..
But let's have a little faith in the manager eh.. because he keeps picking Moreno in his starting line up.. and it's been his decision to sell Brad Smith and not buy a replacement..

Klopp putting faith in Moreno and I think quite a few people in here can learn a thing or two from him.

There's been plenty of it. Plenty of shorthand "well the manager agrees with me cos he keeps picking him and he's Klopp so nerrr" type posts.

Moreno (seemingly) ready to be dropped 1 game in to the season, for a right footed CM, sort of runs contrary to him being fine with how things are. Also hardly endorses the theory that he's happy that Moreno is carrying out his instructions.

[Jookie]

Strange that considering how many people over the course of the past day or so have been at pains to say that Klopp must be happy/OK with Moreno's performance levels.

He's not sold him this summer so far, and has made very little attempt to replace him with a 1st choice left back.

Thats a clearer indication that Klopp is in general happy with Moreno being in the squad and competing for the left back role than a reporter suggesting he'll be dropped for a single game.

This whole Moreno debate is doing my head in. There's people saying, that while not being 100% happy with Moreno, they can see why Klopp wants to keep him. It's for those reasons that some people are saying let's trust the manager and see how he can develop Moreno over the season. We have Milner, Klavan, Clyne and Gomez as potential back up options for left back. Not perfect but let's trust the manager.

There's another group of people who just want shot of him. No matter what.

My biggest issue is that the 2nd group of people is that they must have zero trust in the manager's judgement. Why not trust him and see how it goes? In the meantime, get behind the player and the manager. Klopp might get it wrong with Moreno. He might buy a left back in January. But what's anyone gaining from slaughtering the player and undermining the manager 1 game into the new season.

[Cpt_Reina]

My biggest issue is that the 2nd group of people is that they must have zero trust in the manager's judgement. Why not trust him and see how it goes? In the meantime, get behind the player and the manager. Klopp might get it wrong with Moreno. He might buy a left back in January. But what's anyone gaining from slaughtering the player and undermining the manager 1 game into the new season.

Because they've seen with their own eyes, for 2 seasons, that Moreno consistently makes the same mistakes (costly mistakes at that) and they're sick of it?

We're allowed to disagree with the manager.

[redk84]

In my mind his position is one that needs improving....I just don't have confidence in him being our Left Back week in week out.

So just like with Migs really....but I don't feel the need to berate him all the time. His weaknesses and mistakes are obvious and just something we need to work with while klopp keeps him in the team.
Constant moans in the ground won't help the lad but he needs to learn how to address his issues, just doesn't seem like he knows how to so far.

[Jookie]

Because they've seen with their own eyes, for 2 seasons, that Moreno consistently makes the same mistakes (costly mistakes at that) and they're sick of it?

We're allowed to disagree with the manager.

The manager obviously feels that Moreno has a big part to play this season. I don't necessarily agree with him and I would have bought a left back this summer. In saying that I can see the reasons why we Klopp might like him and want to try and develop him. All in all I'm going to trust the manager. Go the game and get behind Moreno. It's what a supporter should do. The only time I wouldn't get behind a player is they weren't putting a 100% in.

Honest question, in an ideal world who would you have playing at left back for us? If it's not a specific player, then what attributes would they possess to fit into the system Klopp is trying to implement.

[redprodigal]

James Pearce is reporting that Milner is set to replace Moreno at left back against Burnley so.....

Not ideal but a much better option. If I don't see the brainless liability in a red shirt again it will be too soon.

[Crouch Potato]

I'm sorry, but although we should support our players through minor blips, this guy just hasn't got the brains to be a top class defender.

How many times now have we seen him make stupid tackles inside the box?

Then there are all the instances where he bombs forward when he should make sure all his defensive duties are sorted, before he does that.

[Cpt_Reina]

The manager obviously feels that Moreno has a big part to play this season. I don't necessarily agree with him and I would have bought a left back this summer. In saying that I can see the reasons why we Klopp might like him and want to try and develop him. All in all I'm going to trust the manager. Go the game and get behind Moreno. It's what a supporter should do. The only time I wouldn't get behind a player is they weren't putting a 100% in.

Honest question, in an ideal world who would you have playing at left back for us? If it's not a specific player, then what attributes would they possess to fit into the system Klopp is trying to implement.

If a player is shit and is costing us time and again then I think its fine to say they're shit, personally, and its also fine to call the manager out for not rectifying the problem. To say you need to support them simply because they 'try' is some top Red bullshit. IMO.

The left footed version of Clyne is who I'd want, a profile of player vastly different to what we have in Moreno.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Honest question, in an ideal world who would you have playing at left back for us? If it's not a specific player, then what attributes would they possess to fit into the system Klopp is trying to implement.

The sides that finished above us last season have Fuchs, Monreal, Rose, Clichy, Shaw, Bertrand and Cresswell.

Any of them would be an improvement. And that's just our league. There are thousands of professional footballers out there, there is no doubt someone could do a better job. Andy Robertson at Hull is a good player we were linked with.

[Doc Red]

Because they've seen with their own eyes, for 2 seasons, that Moreno consistently makes the same mistakes (costly mistakes at that) and they're sick of it?

We're allowed to disagree with the manager.

True, but I think with a full Summer camp, Klopp would have managed to convey, and instruct, far more than he would have been able to during the course of his first season. I think we might be a bit too hasty in declaring Moreno as a player that cannot improve, and has not improved, based on one game against Arsenal. Especially considering the whole team was at a level below their expectations for most of the first half.

I don't think your argument is wrong simply because Klopp still has Moreno. I think the fact that Moreno is still here, that we weren't seemingly chasing after a first choice LB, and that Klopp is know to improve young players, are all spices in the dish labelled "Moreno seemingly has a future here, and Klopp seems to think he can get far more out of him than we've seen during his first two seasons with us".

Either way, the proof will be in the pudding, or spicy lamb dish. We'll only know in time, in the meantime it's far too early to jump on the "Moreno is just not good enough to start for us" bandwagon (in my opinion).

[Djimi Smicer34]

Don't see how dropping Moreno one game into the season would reflect this apparent faith we have that he can improve.  Particularly for an out of position player who has said publicly that he doesn't want to play at LB.

[fewmin' bedwetter]

I've said it before on here, but I'd like to see Alberto given a go in midfield. He does those recovery challenges better than anyone I've ever seen apart from the maestro Javier Mascherano himself - would be hard for anyone to play through our midfield.
He would bring a nippiness and a bite to the midfield, and I've seen nothing to suggest that his control or passing would not be up to it.
Who knows, he could even turn out to be Kante-esque in there.

As for left back? Ladies and gents, I give you Sir Emre Can - does exactly what it says on the tin.

[Funky_Gibbons]

I've said it before on here, but I'd like to see Alberto given a go in midfield. He does those recovery challenges better than anyone I've ever seen apart from the maestro Javier Mascherano himself - would be hard for anyone to play through our midfield.
He would bring a nippiness and a bite to the midfield, and I've seen nothing to suggest that his control or passing would not be up to it.
Who knows, he could even turn out to be Kante-esque in there.

As for left back? Ladies and gents, I give you Sir Emre Can - does exactly what it says on the tin.

It would be easy to play through our midfield, as he'd be out of position a majority of the time.

[King Klopp.]

I've said it before on here, but I'd like to see Alberto given a go in midfield. He does those recovery challenges better than anyone I've ever seen apart from the maestro Javier Mascherano himself - would be hard for anyone to play through our midfield.
He would bring a nippiness and a bite to the midfield, and I've seen nothing to suggest that his control or passing would not be up to it.
Who knows, he could even turn out to be Kante-esque in there.

As for left back? Ladies and gents, I give you Sir Emre Can - does exactly what it says on the tin.

Alberto Moreno is CM? Yes, that's exactly what we need. Someone sprinting out of position and not tracking runners. He doesn't have the brains to play left back for fuck sake, never mind in the centre of midfield.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Strange that considering how many people over the course of the past day or so have been at pains to say that Klopp must be happy/OK with Moreno's performance levels.

Nothing strange about it. We already know that Klopp plans to use Milner as a fullback this season.

[PeterTheRed ...]

Don't see how dropping Moreno one game into the season would reflect this apparent faith we have that he can improve.  Particularly for an out of position player who has said publicly that he doesn't want to play at LB.

Well, Milner has 150,000 reasons per week to play as a fullback, so I doubt that he will have any problem playing there.

[redprodigal]

Alberto Moreno is CM? Yes, that's exactly what we need. Someone sprinting out of position and not tracking runners. He doesn't have the brains to play left back for fuck sake, never mind in the centre of midfield.

Correct. Hate this idea of trying out a player in a different position just because he's utter garbage in the position he's supposed to be playing in. Get rid of him and get a decent LB in asap and we'll challenge this season.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I've said it before on here, but I'd like to see Alberto given a go in midfield. He does those recovery challenges better than anyone I've ever seen apart from the maestro Javier Mascherano himself - would be hard for anyone to play through our midfield.
He would bring a nippiness and a bite to the midfield, and I've seen nothing to suggest that his control or passing would not be up to it.
Who knows, he could even turn out to be Kante-esque in there.

As for left back? Ladies and gents, I give you Sir Emre Can - does exactly what it says on the tin.

Probably the worst shouts I've ever heard.

[King Klopp.]

Correct. Hate this idea of trying out a player in a different position just because he's utter garbage in the position he's supposed to be playing in. Get rid of him and get a decent LB in asap and we'll challenge this season.

Exactly how I see it mate. We're so close IMO to having a real chance at challenging this season. Not an outside chance, but a real chance. Replacing Moreno with a competent LB is the easiest way to upgrade this team. It stops 5-10 goals a season, and that's being generous to Moreno.

[Djimi Smicer34]

I've said it before on here, but I'd like to see Alberto given a go in midfield. He does those recovery challenges better than anyone I've ever seen apart from the maestro Javier Mascherano himself - would be hard for anyone to play through our midfield.
He would bring a nippiness and a bite to the midfield, and I've seen nothing to suggest that his control or passing would not be up to it.
Who knows, he could even turn out to be Kante-esque in there.

As for left back? Ladies and gents, I give you Sir Emre Can - does exactly what it says on the tin.

Is this serious?

Move Moreno to midfield and Emre Can to left-back? 

 

[fewmin' bedwetter]

Alberto Moreno is CM? Yes, that's exactly what we need. Someone sprinting out of position and not tracking runners. He doesn't have the brains to play left back for fuck sake, never mind in the centre of midfield.

I think left back might be a bit harder to master than some on here might realise. Especially when you're expected to be 100 yards further up the pitch at some moments, other times back defending inside your own area.

Contrary to what you're implying, Alberto might in fact find it easier to get his GPS sorted out in a midfield position, where he'll be playing in tighter areas.

[Kelvinlfc]

I've said it before on here, but I'd like to see Alberto given a go in midfield. He does those recovery challenges better than anyone I've ever seen apart from the maestro Javier Mascherano himself - would be hard for anyone to play through our midfield.
He would bring a nippiness and a bite to the midfield, and I've seen nothing to suggest that his control or passing would not be up to it.
Who knows, he could even turn out to be Kante-esque in there.

As for left back? Ladies and gents, I give you Sir Emre Can - does exactly what it says on the tin.

Troll? 

[Jookie]

If a player is shit and is costing us time and again then I think its fine to say they're shit, personally, and its also fine to call the manager out for not rectifying the problem. To say you need to support them simply because they 'try' is some top Red bullshit. IMO.

The left footed version of Clyne is who I'd want, a profile of player vastly different to what we have in Moreno.

1) Moreno is not shit. If he was he'd have binned ages ago. He's a player who has made some high profile mistakes recently and is being painted by some people as worse than he is.

2) In my time as being a match going Red, you get behind the team and the manager. What's to gain by slaughtering them? You've slaughtered him since Sunday -  calling him shit being a prime example. Maybe before I haven't noticed. From what I've seen your posts are unwilling to even acknowledge that Moreno has positive attributes that contribute to the team. It's those attributes that's the crux of most people defending Moreno and trusting the manager.

3) If a player gives 100% he gets my support. The player isn't responsible for being selected to play. He isn't responsible for the tactics employed. If he isn't good enough or isn't carrying out the tactics appropriately then it's up to the manager to remove them. I'm guessing that Klopp, based on our summer transfer activity, thinks Moreno has the required quality and is able to carry out the tactical instructions given to him. He's had about 9-10 months of working with him to find out.

4) Giving the players and manager your support is not being a top Red. It's called being a supporter. We shouldn't support the manager regardless. But Klopp is 10 months into the job. 10 months in which he embraced the club, drew the supporter base closer together and despite joining mid-season got us to 2 cup final. He's a manager who comes with a reputation of achieving great things. I'm not going to be calling him out and throwing my toys out the pram after 1 game of his first full season in charge. If he thinks Moreno is good enough to form part of the 1st team squad then I'm happy to trust him.

5) A left footed version of Clyne would be a good option. It might take away some of counter attacking ability that Moreno gives us. At home against teams who will generally defend I think the ability to transition quickly will be paramount to us creating opportunities. A less explosive left back might hinder that. I also think at home against pack defences the opposition would allow both full backs to have the ball. That might be a problem with Moreno. However, his explosiveness in the final 3rd might unsettle defences whereas a more solid right back might not have that. On the counter side, Moreno might directly cost us 3-5 goals a season due to poor positional sense or reckless challenges. A more defensive right back might be down a 1-2 goals. Does his attacking ability and the way he allows us to set up on the LHS (with Coutinho drifting infield and Moreno providing width) compensate for those 'extra' conceded goals?

I'm going to wait and see what happens over the course of the season. Not 100% happy with Moreno but he'll get my support when he plays. What's the alternative? Being a cry arse on the internet or in the Main Stand?

[fewmin' bedwetter]

Troll? 

No! I was one of the first to realise on here that Alberto was a liability at left back. But there's a lot to like about him - I'm just not convinced left-back will end up being his position. To have a left-footer in midfield would benefit us as well, I'd say. I'd like to see him given a go at some point.

[Kelvinlfc]

If you'd said on the left wing (in the same way Bale was moved forward) i'd agree he's worth a shot in the cups but not a fucking hope in hell he can be trusted in the middle, he has little to no defensive awareness and relies heavily on his speed to get him back into position once caught out.

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

The problem with Moreno is he is too left footed. If he had an ounce of ability on his right, then half the wild clearances he tries to make on his left would probably be cleared no problem.

The one that ultimately led to the penalty/first goal, they way he approaches the ball is crying out for a smash on the right foot, yet he goes with his left pushing the ball up, and travelling back towards our goal. Klopp should get him working on using his right foot.

[Djimi Smicer34]

No! I was one of the first to realise on here that Alberto was a liability at left back. But there's a lot to like about him - I'm just not convinced left-back will end up being his position. To have a left-footer in midfield would benefit us as well, I'd say. I'd like to see him given a go at some point.

Central midfield will never be his position.

Suggesting we swap him and Can around is ridiculous.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

According to the Echo he won't be starting in the next match. Apparently Milner will start instead.

[Ratboy3G]

1) Moreno is not shit. If he was he'd have binned ages ago. He's a player who has made some high profile mistakes recently and is being painted by some people as worse than he is.

2) In my time as being a match going Red, you get behind the team and the manager. What's to gain by slaughtering them? You've slaughtered him since Sunday -  calling him shit being a prime example. Maybe before I haven't noticed. From what I've seen your posts are unwilling to even acknowledge that Moreno has positive attributes that contribute to the team. It's those attributes that's the crux of most people defending Moreno and trusting the manager.

3) If a player gives 100% he gets my support. The player isn't responsible for being selected to play. He isn't responsible for the tactics employed. If he isn't good enough or isn't carrying out the tactics appropriately then it's up to the manager to remove them. I'm guessing that Klopp, based on our summer transfer activity, thinks Moreno has the required quality and is able to carry out the tactical instructions given to him. He's had about 9-10 months of working with him to find out.

4) Giving the players and manager your support is not being a top Red. It's called being a supporter. We shouldn't support the manager regardless. But Klopp is 10 months into the job. 10 months in which he embraced the club, drew the supporter base closer together and despite joining mid-season got us to 2 cup final. He's a manager who comes with a reputation of achieving great things. I'm not going to be calling him out and throwing my toys out the pram after 1 game of his first full season in charge. If he thinks Moreno is good enough to form part of the 1st team squad then I'm happy to trust him.

5) A left footed version of Clyne would be a good option. It might take away some of counter attacking ability that Moreno gives us. At home against teams who will generally defend I think the ability to transition quickly will be paramount to us creating opportunities. A less explosive left back might hinder that. I also think at home against pack defences the opposition would allow both full backs to have the ball. That might be a problem with Moreno. However, his explosiveness in the final 3rd might unsettle defences whereas a more solid right back might not have that. On the counter side, Moreno might directly cost us 3-5 goals a season due to poor positional sense or reckless challenges. A more defensive right back might be down a 1-2 goals. Does his attacking ability and the way he allows us to set up on the LHS (with Coutinho drifting infield and Moreno providing width) compensate for those 'extra' conceded goals?

I'm going to wait and see what happens over the course of the season. Not 100% happy with Moreno but he'll get my support when he plays. What's the alternative? Being a cry arse on the internet or in the Main Stand?

Great post mate

[Cpt_Reina]

His positive traits are what exactly? Being able to run fast in a straight line, its hardly irreplacable as an attribute in a modern footballer.

If you have anything further to add on what he brings to the team beyond a slightly above average ability to run quickly up and down the flank then Im all ears.

Moreno has no right foot, he constantly plays himself and us as a team in to trouble because of it. Either by refusing to use his right at all or (as was the case on Sunday) hooking a ball in to a dangerous area when he does.

He has little to no positional sense, both in an defensive and an attacking sense. His runs forward are hardly timed to perfection a la Dani Alves, he more often than not just gets in the way. His defensive positioning speaks for itself.

He's weak at the back post, both in the air and just in terms of spacial awareness of who/what is around him.

He makes poor decisions on the ball such as shooting from ridiculous positions.

His contribution on the ball is no better than average, Id say Milner will probably put in a better cross with his left than Moreno does.

He's rash in the challenge and regularly costs us penalties because of it as well as taking himself out of the game far too often.

He more often than not makes whichever CB is playing next to him look worse for having to play so close to him.

But yeah he can run quite fast and can do so without tiring too much, thumbs up.

The above is why I think he's shit, there was an equally long list of why I though Enrique was shit, why I thought Skrtel was shit and why I think Mignolet is shit.

You dont get to play for Liverpool because you try hard, you could drag any 11 lads out of the Sandon and they'd try hard. You need to be good at the football too, and Moreno isnt.

No amount of padding out his assist stats by passing the ball sideways 5 yards to Coutinho before he leathers one in from 30yds will change that.

Lastly, the '1 game in to Klopp's first full season' line doesnt wash. Its 2 seasons and 2 cup finals where Moreno has been below par (to be kind) for us. He deserves the stick as does Klopp for not properly addressing the issue, he managed us in those finals last season and he saw what Moreno did.

The manager clearly does see that its not good enough from Moreno, thats why he wanted Chillwell as competition and also why now there are clear indications that the position will go to Milner. So he *knows* something has to be done, the problem as I see it is the half measure of playing Milner there.

[BCCC]

Nice article by Tony Barrett on Times about Moreno .As usual common sense article from him when most media are going for ridiculous hyperbole.Q quoting just a part of it as its behind paywall
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/moreno-attacked-from-all-sides-but-klopp-still-has-faith-0r59dwhxz

Willingness to learn and capacity to learn are two different things. When Klopp first arrived he clearly had a close relationship with Jordan "Ibeee" Ibe and look where he is now. I haven't seen an improvement in the critical elements of Moreno's game in over a season so willing or not some things just aren't sinking in.

Klopp sees more than we do in terms of willingness and capacity so hopefully there are some incremental changes that are going in the right direction, but don't discount Klopp's cold ability to cut the lifeline when he sees that his investment isn't paying off.

[McrRed]

The problem with Moreno is he is too left footed. If he had an ounce of ability on his right, then half the wild clearances he tries to make on his left would probably be cleared no problem.

The one that ultimately led to the penalty/first goal, they way he approaches the ball is crying out for a smash on the right foot, yet he goes with his left pushing the ball up, and travelling back towards our goal. Klopp should get him working on using his right foot.

The one that led to the penalty was a swiped misclearance by Hendo. It went straight up in the air. Moreno then tried to clear that and gave the pen.

Later in the game, the defensive minded Clyne gets skinned 2v1 and very few pull him up for it.

Moreno is far from perfect but he's still one of the best left backs in the league. He's become a scapegoat because of his brainfarts (ones that others make too, but get away with being called out for).

It's an easy score to make it look as if you know something about the game by saying how shit our leftback is. Yet that dickhead Klopp keeps picking him. I mean, what does he know, right?

I've always hated unfairness. The criticism Moreno gets is by and large unfair so I tend to back him, YNWA and all that.

[Filler.]

There will be those who will conclude that replacing Moreno for Milner v Burnley is an indication of a certain lack of trust in him, but it should be remembered that playing on the counter v Burnley won't I imagine be high priority. Playing on the counter away to Spurs the following week however, will be.

[King Klopp.]

Moreno is far from perfect but he's still one of the best left backs in the league.

That's an incredible thing to say.

[redbyrdz]

Find all this blaming Moreno for a 'reckless tackle' a bit odd. If he had not slipped over the ball, everyone would be calling it a great tackle. It was a last ditch tackle in the box, you've got to get it right or its a pen, but sometimes you get it wrong, thats the way it is. If he hadn't tried, he'd been called a shithouse again.

[Anfield89]

The one that led to the penalty was a swiped misclearance by Hendo. It went straight up in the air. Moreno then tried to clear that and gave the pen.

Later in the game, the defensive minded Clyne gets skinned 2v1 and very few pull him up for it.

Moreno is far from perfect but he's still one of the best left backs in the league. He's become a scapegoat because of his brainfarts (ones that others make too, but get away with being called out for).

It's an easy score to make it look as if you know something about the game by saying how shit our leftback is. Yet that dickhead Klopp keeps picking him. I mean, what does he know, right?

I've always hated unfairness. The criticism Moreno gets is by and large unfair so I tend to back him, YNWA and all that.

Perhaps it's because there's a recurring theme with Moreno and there is not with Clyne.

[Coolie High]

The best left back in 10 years?

Moreno hasn't been as good as Enrique.

[Anfield89]

Find all this blaming Moreno for a 'reckless tackle' a bit odd. If he had not slipped over the ball, everyone would be calling it a great tackle. It was a last ditch tackle in the box, you've got to get it right or its a pen, but sometimes you get it wrong, thats the way it is. If he hadn't tried, he'd been called a shithouse again.

Your talking about the penalty?

[King Klopp.]

Find all this blaming Moreno for a 'reckless tackle' a bit odd. If he had not slipped over the ball, everyone would be calling it a great tackle.

Yeah but he didn't make a great tackle. He fucked it up.

That's like saying 'oh if he had scored the open goal and not blazed it over the bar people would be calling it a great goal'