Topic: Roberto Firmino

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Lol what?

We need a striker next season, main priority. Bobby can be a decent backup.

I've argued this for about two years but I'm not sure anymore - he's about as useful as duct tape with holes in it and this summer is probably our last chance to cash in on him to raise funds

[joshlfc94]

Bobby has been poor for over a year now so the comments on this thread are not knee jerk. The guy went almost a full season without scoring at home. It's nowhere near good enough.

We lack a proper number 9 battering ram type. What I'd give for Erling Haaland in this summer. I'd take him over any player in the world available.

[plura]

Obviously, this is a sensitive subject with a thin line between being called an ungrateful wanker or a forum member with a rational opinion sometimes on here. But Firmino like the rest has struggled this season. But probably a lot more than some, together with perhaps Trent and a few others. Before this season we've seen Bobby's form being a bit inconsistent in the past as well. Combining man of the match performances with once where every ball he touches goes to an opponent and missing a few clear cut chances.

Right now moving forward I hope we can get in another striker, someone that offers something different to Bobby. An alternative and complement that gives Bobby competition, and a break. And gives the team something different to use against the low block teams. I think this should be a target for the summer transfer window. And this in return I hope beyond giving us another option will trigger a return or in-form Firmino. Where he can return to having more motm performances on a more frequent basis. And these two strikers can alternate depending on form, opponent and such.

[The G in Gerrard]

Sell Bobby? Oh my god

[Knight]

Something isn't working offensively and it may well be nothing to do with Firmino but I don't think it matters anymore because it's looking more and more likely that we need to change it up. And one of the simplest ways of changing the way we play is by sticking a genuine 9 up top.

[killer-heels]

Sell Bobby? Oh my god

Its not a controversial shout at all.

[The G in Gerrard]

Its not a controversial shout at all.

We need an upgrade on Origi not Bobby. I'd be much happier with Jota, Mane and Salah for example with Bobby from the bench.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

We need an upgrade on Origi not Bobby. I'd be much happier with Jota, Mane and Salah for example with Bobby from the bench.

That's obviously the ideal scenario, but we don't have limitless funds - so if we need to raise them, it's pretty clear who needs to go

If we want to change shape to more of a 4-2-3-1, too, Firmino becomes even less useful as he's rarely convinced as a ten and he's obviously not a striker.

[4pool]

Klopp literally benched him for Jota at parts this season, if it weren’t for the injuries I suspect that would have continued. If it does happen again when Jota is fully fit maybe you can start your #JurgenOut if it hurts your feelings.

Might want to check the stats.

We've played 23 League matches. Bobby has started 21, came on as a sub in the other 2.

Both Sub appearances were after Jota was injured. He came on as a sub v Burnley and West Ham last month.

[Jwils21]

That's obviously the ideal scenario, but we don't have limitless funds - so if we need to raise them, it's pretty clear who needs to go

If we want to change shape to more of a 4-2-3-1, too, Firmino becomes even less useful as he's rarely convinced as a ten and he's obviously not a striker.

I'd be interested to see a 4-2-3-1 with Bobby in the 10 and an out and out striker upfront, rather than one of Mane/Salah/Jota.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I'd be interested to see a 4-2-3-1 with Bobby in the 10 and an out and out striker upfront, rather than one of Mane/Salah/Jota.

Id prefer that to our current shape for sure - but there's number ten's out there with much better passing, agility, long range shooting ability etc.

[RyanBabel19]

Interested to see what happens once Jota comes back. Both in the side? Jota in, Bobby out? A change in formation with Jota/Mane/Salah up top

Also interested to see Klopps ideas for taking us forward. Wonder if Bobby will remain his go to as he’s shown no signs of changing it even with all the forwards fit. Who would you look to replace him with IF we looked to sign a striker as I only see one stand out option, or do we change the blueprint?

[Fromola]

He's a husk of the player he once was. I've backed him to the hilt even when our fans where criticizing his goal output.

Honestly, he looks finished at the top level. Can't trap a bag of cement, can't play simple passes, can't press, can't hit a barn door. He also seems to have lost his hunger.

I tell you, we'd be better off with 10 men.

There has to be a readon why Brazilian attackers tend to decline early.

It happens to a lot of South American forwards in general. The international commitments and traveling involved are relentless. The World Cup qualifiers are absolutely brutal (18 games and no San Marino's) and there's a Copa America practically every year there's not a World Cup.

They never get a summer off. We got a great few years out of Bobby, the best of his career, but it's a case now of what Bob would have said "let him lose his legs on someone else's pitch". It's painful to watch it happen to Liverpool legends. Chelsea actually did us a favour with Torres.

The more the authorities keep dreaming up more games and more competitions, the quicker players will burn out.

[Clint Eastwood]

I’m not sure anyone spends big money on Bobby this summer. Will be 30, not had a good season, COVID. Even when he was at his peak, he never seemed like the type who’d go for big money despite his quality and importance to us.

I’d keep Bobby. Maybe he’d benefit from having less responsibility in the team and less pressure.

It’s a sad state of affairs though. This team have been a joy to watch and they’ve given us some great memories. Bobby has been a stalwart for Klopp’s Liverpool, will be a sad day when he goes.

[farawayred]

Have we sold him yet? Reading this thread one might think that we've already arranged that for the summer...

Might want to check the stats.

We've played 23 League matches. Bobby has started 21, came on as a sub in the other 2.

Both Sub appearances were after Jota was injured. He came on as a sub v Burnley and West Ham last month.

And you 4pool, don't make a Greek tragedy out of this - an Ugly Fact murdering a Beautiful Theory!

[4pool]

Have we sold him yet? Reading this thread one might think that we've already arranged that for the summer...
And you 4pool, don't make a Greek tragedy out of this - an Ugly Fact murdering a Beautiful Theory!

I do my worst..

[4pool]

Klopp literally benched him for Jota at parts this season..<snip>

Let's look at this in more detail:

Jota started 5 times in the League. Who was he partnered with as a starter?

4/10  Villa-- Jota, Bobby, Mo. No Sadio
24/10 Shef. Utd-- Jota, Sadio, Bobby, Mo. All 4 started.
8/11 Man City-- Jota, Sadio, Bobby, Mo. All 4 started.
22/11 Leicester-- Jota, Bobby, Sadio. No Mo.
28/11 Brighton-- Jota, Bobby, Mo. No Sadio.

So under your assertions, actually it was Sadio as the most often "benched" to give Jota a game in the League.

Bobby started every time.  And in three of the matches above Jota scored. Shef, Leicester, Brighton. Maybe it was because Bobby was on the pitch. Nah, couldn't have been...

[Dave McCoy]

non-penalty xG through yesterday:

Mane .51 - 5th in the league
Firmino .43 - 10th in the league
Salah .37 - 17th in the league

[Ratboy3G]

I do my worst..

4pool you need to be more disCrete

[PeterTheRed ...]

I think that we will have a solution for Firmino's problems in the summer ...

Mane - New striker - Salah

Firmino

Fabinho - Thiago

I can see him having at least another 2 productive seasons with us, if not 3 ...

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Its not a controversial shout at all.

Welcome to the disposal heap of ideas. 

This is just sad. 

It is like people have lost their entire minds.

[bird_lfc]

non-penalty xG through yesterday:

Mane .51 - 5th in the league
Firmino .43 - 10th in the league
Salah .37 - 17th in the league

Is it just me that really isn’t arsed by this whole xG nonsense?

He hasn’t been good enough. We need to sign another forward capable of competing with him or dislodging him in the team.

[El Lobo]

I think that we will have a solution for Firmino's problems in the summer ...

Mane - New striker - Salah

Firmino

Fabinho - Thiago

I can see him having at least another 2 productive seasons with us, if not 3 ...

I’m sure it’s not the absolute worst solution...but it’s one of them

We’re not dropping the captain for a start, least of all for someone like Thiago who has struggled being a ‘holder’. And the manager isn’t sentimental enough to just drop Firmino back into midfield when his performances are what have been really poor. Being in a different part of the pitch doesn’t change that

[Rush 82]

Welcome to the disposal heap of ideas. 

This is just sad. 

It is like people have lost their entire minds.

This thread...

Cripes

On some level I understand that people need to scapegoat someone, but some of the comment in here beggars belief.

[Knight]

Is it just me that really isn’t arsed by this whole xG nonsense?

He hasn’t been good enough. We need to sign another forward capable of competing with him or dislodging him in the team.

Salah’s is concerning. Why are we not creating for him? Firmino must be radically underperforming his XG which would be less concerning if it weren’t becoming a major theme. If Haaland were at that XG he’d be ripping it up.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

non-penalty xG through yesterday:

Mane .51 - 5th in the league
Firmino .43 - 10th in the league
Salah .37 - 17th in the league

Right...but here in the real world, which actually matters, Salah is top goalscorer in the league with only (from my quick research) Son and DCL having scored more than him from open play.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Salah’s is concerning. Why are we not creating for him? Firmino must be radically underperforming his XG which would be less concerning if it weren’t becoming a major theme. If Haaland were at that XG he’d be ripping it up.

Salah's xG/90 was 0.64 last season and is 0.6 so far this season which is the difference of 1.5 goals over a 38 game season so he's perfoeming close to his best.

[joshlfc94]

Did anyone see Carra's analysis last night on MNF? I don't normally agree with everything he says but he was absolutely spot on about everything. Defo worth a watch. It's doing the rounds on Twitter.

Like he said, we need 3 class players to come in at centre back, centre mid, front 3. Not squad players for the bench but players who walk into the starting XI.

[Knight]

Salah's xG/90 was 0.64 last season and is 0.6 so far this season which is the difference of 1.5 goals over a 38 game season so he's perfoeming close to his best.

You’re including penalties there right? What’s his non penalty XG from last season?

[Funky_Gibbons]

You’re including penalties there right? What’s his non penalty XG from last season?

That information is harder to find but both last seasons and this seasons xG/90 will include penalties so it's reasonably fair comparison (especially considering we hardly get awarded them).

[Chris~]

Salah's xG/90 was 0.64 last season and is 0.6 so far this season which is the difference of 1.5 goals over a 38 game season so he's perfoeming close to his best.

He's taking more penalties this season though.

Non penalty Xg last year was .54 Vs .37 this via stsbomb/fbref.

Salah's had no shots inside the 6 yard box this year, 9 last year, 14 the year before. (I'd seen.this initially on twitter using understat but can't remember who to credit ) He's missing out on the highest value shots and that'll drag down his non-penalty xg. Which I think ties in to my biggest issue with Firmino and it's more structural than on him. Firmino is never going to be your main goal source even when he's not finishing like Benteke,  but that's an issue when you're taking Salah further away from goal to do other stuff like we have this season. It'd be really interesting to know why. I'm guessing without Jota Klopp wants our best attacking options on the pitch as much as possible and feels Firmino is better than Shaqiri/ox. Firmino can't play wide right so it falls on Salah to be more creative on that side with the more reserved approach.

[Chris~]

Did anyone see Carra's analysis last night on MNF? I don't normally agree with everything he says but he was absolutely spot on about everything. Defo worth a watch. It's doing the rounds on Twitter.

Like he said, we need 3 class players to come in at centre back, centre mid, front 3. Not squad players for the bench but players who walk into the starting XI.

Van Dijk, Fabinho, Jota?

[aw1991]

Almost every good performance we had recently came when he played well. The solution is not selling him or replacing him imo. Hopefully Jota will get fit quickly and Taki picks up form at Sotton and next season we'll have better depth (possibly with a new signing as well) so we could rest him and tweak some things.

Nice interview from him here:
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/roberto-firmino-explains-what-jurgen-19794093

[Funky_Gibbons]

Almost every good performance we had recently came when he played well.

So can we say that every bad team perfromance recently has been because he played poorly?

[Bergersrightwingviews]

Almost every good performance we had recently came when he played well. The solution is not selling him or replacing him imo. Hopefully Jota will get fit quickly and Taki picks up form at Sotton and next season we'll have better depth (possibly with a new signing as well) so we could rest him and tweak some things.

Nice interview from him here:
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/roberto-firmino-explains-what-jurgen-19794093

I think it is more that he is able to do the things he does well when teams allow us to play.  When teams sit deep (as they increasingly do against us) he is ineffective as is the rest of the team.

This is a real problem because we need to find a way to win against the bus parkers. I have said this before, but there is no point in Firmino drifting deep to try and draw out CBs if the CBs have absolutely no interest in following him and instead stay in a rigid line. 

[Funky_Gibbons]

He's taking more penalties this season though.

Non penalty Xg last year was .54 Vs .37 this via stsbomb/fbref.

Salah's had no shots inside the 6 yard box this year, 9 last year, 14 the year before. (I'd seen.this initially on twitter using understat but can't remember who to credit ) He's missing out on the highest value shots and that'll drag down his non-penalty xg. Which I think ties in to my biggest issue with Firmino and it's more structural than on him. Firmino is never going to be your main goal source even when he's not finishing like Benteke,  but that's an issue when you're taking Salah further away from goal to do other stuff like we have this season. It'd be really interesting to know why. I'm guessing without Jota Klopp wants our best attacking options on the pitch as much as possible and feels Firmino is better than Shaqiri/ox. Firmino can't play wide right so it falls on Salah to be more creative on that side with the more reserved approach.

Thanks for finding those stats, the site I wa slooking on hasn't got non penalty xG.

The stats I'm looking at don't show a huge difference in xG/90 for all three forwards but they've all dropped off a little in terms of xA/90. What's also noticable is last season Mane overperformed his xG/90 while Firmino underperfored by quite a lot.

It's that lack of cutting edge which is becoming a problem, Mane has gone from overperfroming to underperfroming and Firmino hasn't taken up that slack and has continued to underperform. So we're left with Salah as being the only one of the front three who is contributing, now I fully expect Mane to play his way into form because he has a history of doing so but this from Firmino seems his 'norm'.

[aw1991]

So can we say that every bad team perfromance recently has been because he played poorly?

It's a though question. I think yes, in a way, but I don't think the solution is to sell him. Like a some of our players, he looks a bit tired. He probably regressed a bit physically and I think in the future we will see him playing as a proper #10 rather than a false 9, but he definitely got a substantial part to play in the future. I don't think he's done and given how Klopp rates him, I think anyone wanting him to get sold/out of the first team picture is setting himself up for a disappointment.

[Funky_Gibbons]

It's a though question. I think yes, in a way, but I don't think the solution is to sell him. Like a some of our players, he looks a bit tired. He probably regressed a bit physically and I think in the future we will see him playing as a proper #10 rather than a false 9, but he definitely got a substantial part to play in the future. I don't think he's done and given how Klopp rates him, I think anyone wanting him to get sold/out of the first team picture is setting himself up for a disappointment.

I think the chances of him being sold are fairly slim, mainly because what he offers a team is not required by very many other managers. 

As for playing him as a #10 I can’t see that either, Klopp has played 4-2-3-1 a few times but has always favoured 4-3-3. I also don’t think Firmino has the qualities of a #10 either, his ball retention is poor and we’ve seen recently how he struggles to unlock packed defences.

It’s pretty clear the front three needs freshening up in the summer and with Jota back from injury soon Firmino place will rightly be under massive threat.

[Fromola]

Did anyone see Carra's analysis last night on MNF? I don't normally agree with everything he says but he was absolutely spot on about everything. Defo worth a watch. It's doing the rounds on Twitter.

Like he said, we need 3 class players to come in at centre back, centre mid, front 3. Not squad players for the bench but players who walk into the starting XI.

I'm not sure that exactly gets to the root of the problem. If we had Alisson, Trent, Van Dijk, Matip/Gomez, Robertson, Fabinho, Henderson, Thiago, Mane, Firmino/Jota, Salah available for the start of next season, then who are the three to come out and who are the three to come in to improve on them? Even assuming the money was there to spend on the three top drawer players it would take to better that side.

Injuries have been the problem and a lack of strength in depth to an extent, exacerbated by an injury crisis.

It was simplistic analysis. We signed Thiago to strengthen and refresh the midfield and Jota in attack last summer. The fact they both ended up injured for months  didn't help. Yes, we fucked up not signing a centre back at the start of January, if not the summer.

I agree in so much as we need at least another good quality CB, midfielder to replace Gini and another forward in the summer. They don't necessarily have to all be bonafide starters when everyone is available.  Carragher's analysis was that the players have played too much football because the players behind them aren't good enough. Surely that means we need stronger depth? It's not the 80s anymore when you could navigate a season with a squad of 16.

[aw1991]

I think the chances of him being sold are fairly slim, mainly because what he offers a team is not required by very many other managers. 

As for playing him as a #10 I can’t see that either, Klopp has played 4-2-3-1 a few times but has always favoured 4-3-3. I also don’t think Firmino has the qualities of a #10 either, his ball retention is poor and we’ve seen recently how he struggles to unlock packed defences.

It’s pretty clear the front three needs freshening up in the summer and with Jota back from injury soon Firmino place will rightly be under massive threat.

I disagree about Klopp sticking to the 433 at all costs and about Firmino not being effective as a 10. Their stints before joining Liverpool suggest otherwise.

Oh, and Firmino will have his takers for sure. Perhaps the pandemic and his age means we wouldn't get astronomical fee for him, but he's good enough to play for every team.