Author Topic: **SPOILERS** Star Wars: The Force Awakens **SPOILERS** Now with genuine spoilers  (Read 103701 times)

Offline Rob Dylan

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Odd you don't see the rehashed episode 4 story, abandoned on a desert planet without parents, a droid that escapes with hidden vital information, a canteen scene where they are discovered by the enemy, older male lead character killed by the main bad character, destroying a final 'death star' through a hidden weak spot. What part was original :D but as I said before I can understand why they played it safe

None of those things matter when you're watching it though (other than the Starkiller base thing not being original), because the characters, dialogue and action are done so well. Whereas the prequels may have had different story ideas but you didn't care because everything else was so poor. In any case, if you talk in such general terms you can make it sound like a complete rip-off, but when you get down to the actual details there are differences in all of those plot ideas, and plenty of new stuff (a female lead, a stormtrooper who defects, a father being killed by his own son, etc). It's a pretty lazy analysis just to say 'there's a desert planet, and a droid etc etc.'

In more general terms, it's not a case of 'playing it safe', but rather they have made a deliberate effort to bring on board a new generation of fans, who might know next to nothing of Star Wars. They were right not to make it a straight continuation from ROTJ with all the political backstories and the complex history of the Force and the Jedi v Sith etc, that could only be appreciated by committed Star Wars fans. When the original was made it was not some complex thing, it was a straightforward adventure, which had a bit of political stuff mentioned briefly, and a mystical element which while important, was only touched upon in basic details. If they had never made a sequel it would still have been a great film. What they've tried to do here is re-create that simplicity, start a new group of heroes off on their journey (and this kind of tale always has very similar 'tropes' involved in doing that - a nobody living in a remote place (Rey), an unlikely hero (Finn), people from different backgrounds uniting to take on some evil); and tell a story that you can understand and enjoy even if you know nothing about Star Wars. It's to get a new generation involved and feeling that these are their heroes. Now if you want to get deeper into it, the details and the backstory are there (in the novels, comics, visual dictionary etc), but you don't have to delve into any of that to understand and enjoy the film - and it was the same with the Original Trilogy, people could see the first one, forget about it for a couple of years, then see the next one and still understand it. They have cleverly managed to please the obsessive fans who want all the details, the casual fans who just want a simple story, and the new fans who don't yet know all the history.

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As for the suspension of belief, thats in response to a previous poster having issue with an individual scene or event, not the whole story. So its not equivalent to finding the prequels boring, its the equivalent of people hating say the gymnastic yoda scene. People are justified for finding that scene as laughable but people are told to suspend their disbelief for the milenium falcon just being on jakku and fully pilotable. Both scenes are a bit shit but people can't say that about episode 7 for some reason. Doesn't take away from the overall film but still shit never the less.

That's a poor comparison to make though. The Falcon being on Jakku was just one of those coincidences that are needed to move the story along in a fantasy / adventure - it's no different to the droids happening to end up at Luke's farm, and then the red droid happening to blow up so he ended up with R2-D2 - without that coincidence none of the story would have happened. (In fact the Falcon being there is quite feasible - it's not the first time it's been stolen or lost, it was pilotable because Unkar Plutt had been working on it - it's in the film - and Han found it because he was looking for it and knew who had stolen it).

Whereas, Yoda's lightsaber battles are ridiculous on so many levels. Firstly they look stupid, turning what should be dramatic scenes into comedy routines. Secondly, even by the standards of what the Jedi can do, the idea of being able to jump around like that and fight skilfully enough against full-size humans stretches credibility too far. And thirdly, the rest of the time he walks around with a stick. So why does he pretend to be frail for 90% of the time?

As for not applying the same standards to Ep 7 as we do to the prequels - if you analyse the OT in detail, I'm sure you could find plot holes and things which don't make sense, but because everything else is done so well, most people don't want to get down to that level of analysis. Whereas with the prequels, the really obvious flaws which you notice straight away make it clear that they are poor - without any deeper analysis. If it was almost any other film people would just write them off as mediocre and forget about them, but because people like Star Wars so much and were so disappointed, they analyse them to a deeper level and point out all the plot holes etc. But you don't need to go that deep to realise that they are poor films.

« Last Edit: September 1, 2016, 10:02:53 pm by Rob Dylan »

Offline Paul JH

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I don't agree. I think Abrams just did the bare minimum. It was a huge missed opportunity. Who needs to reboot/reintroduce the most popular franchise in movie history?

Because 10 years had passed since Episode 3, and 10 year olds weren't born then? And Episode 6 was 30 years before ... just because it's popular, it doesn't mean it will win new audiences, hence the slight re-boot combined with a sequel.
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No, what i meant is its a little hypocritical for some to say people should suspend their disbelief for parts of episode 7 if they don't particularly like it but don't follow that advice themselves for the prequels. Its a poor counter point that people use.

Nope. It's about charm. If a movie has charm, you don't give a shit about all this. If it's dull, your mind wanders and you find yourself asking those questions. So long as a movie holds your attention, which the prequels didn't, it will get away with being fairly ludicrous.

As I said, the problem with the prequels was not really anything to do with continuity. Or I'm lying and everyone is a massive hypocrite. Take your pick.
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Offline Something Worse

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Because 10 years had passed since Episode 3, and 10 year olds weren't born then? And Episode 6 was 30 years before ... just because it's popular, it doesn't mean it will win new audiences, hence the slight re-boot combined with a sequel.

I can't wrap my head around this at all. Marvel have built a successful universe based on comics most people don't read. Star Wars had way better brand recognition than Iron Man. Episode 7 could have been much braver and Abrams could have done his own thing and it would still have been the biggest non-Cameron movie ever.
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Offline oojason

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I can't wrap my head around this at all. Marvel have built a successful universe based on comics most people don't read. Star Wars had way better brand recognition than Iron Man. Episode 7 could have been much braver and Abrams could have done his own thing and it would still have been the biggest non-Cameron movie ever.

If Marvel had only done 6 feature length films, the first Trilogy mainly being remembered as classic films - yet the second 3 films were made some time later and panned - and also disliked by a large section of the fans who enjoyed the first 3 movies - then there may be well have been a soft-reboot - a going back to roots as it were for it's 7th title.

Abrams is pretty good with that - it's what he did with the 2 new Trek films (basically a greatest hits of Trek moments from the past) - enjoyable and all - gets all the fans going once again, and then you can advance the direction (and take more risks etc) in later films...


For me TFA is a reboot of all 3 of the OT films (not everyone agrees, but that's ok):-

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pueu2wu0M5s?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/pueu2wu0M5s?fs=1</a>


and most of us are looking forward to Rogue One and Episode VIII - and beyond...

If it took Episode VII to do that (get the fans back on board and looking forward to more Star Wars films) - without the 'qualities' of the Prequels - then it seems most people are ok with that... especially as TFA was a pretty enjoyable film in itself, and did a good job in introducing new interesting characters and dynamics, revisiting old familiar faces - and also maintaining intrigue and a thirst to know more - something which was sadly lacking in the Prequels for many.


Roll on December :)
« Last Edit: September 2, 2016, 12:48:41 pm by oojason »
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Offline oojason

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For fans of the books - or those that may want to know a little more on some of the backstory for Rogue One - there is a new book out soon...

Star Wars : Catalyst - A Rogue One novel, by Jame Luceno, out on 17th November.


The synopsis is - “War is tearing the galaxy apart. For years the Republic and the Separatists have battled across the stars, each building more and more deadly technology in an attempt to win the war. As a member of Chancellor Palpatine’s top secret Death Star project, Orson Krennic is determined to develop a superweapon before their enemies can. And an old friend of Krennic’s, the brilliant scientist Galen Erso, could be the key.”

“Galen’s energy-focused research has captured the attention of both Krennic and his foes, making the scientist a crucial pawn in the galactic conflict. But after Krennic rescues Galen, his wife, Lyra, and their young daughter, Jyn, from Separatist kidnappers, the Erso family is deeply in Krennic’s debt. Krennic then offers Galen an extraordinary opportunity: to continue his scientific studies with every resource put utterly at his disposal. While Galen and Lyra believe that his energy research will be used purely in altruistic ways, Krennic has other plans that will finally make the Death Star a reality. Trapped in their benefactor’s tightening grasp, the Ersos must untangle Krennic’s web of deception to save themselves and the galaxy itself.”
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Offline Brian Blessed

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I can't wrap my head around this at all. Marvel have built a successful universe based on comics most people don't read. Star Wars had way better brand recognition than Iron Man. Episode 7 could have been much braver and Abrams could have done his own thing and it would still have been the biggest non-Cameron movie ever.
Yes, Star Wars has better recognition than Iron Man. It also made $1.5 billion more than Iron Man. Iron Man was a modest hit back in 2008. If Iron Man 4 came out today and only made $585 million worldwide, it would be considered a failure.  The key is Marvel have build a successful universe, the key being they built it. SW also had to build, albeit from a much higher plain.
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Offline Something Worse

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Yes, Star Wars has better recognition than Iron Man. It also made $1.5 billion more than Iron Man. Iron Man was a modest hit back in 2008. If Iron Man 4 came out today and only made $585 million worldwide, it would be considered a failure.  The key is Marvel have build a successful universe, the key being they built it. SW also had to build, albeit from a much higher plain.

I feel like you're agreeing with me? Other than I don't agree with Episode 7 being milquetoast as a necessity. I'd rather see something that showed that the OT mattered, maybe a decaying New Republic being torn apart, that sort of thing. Instead everyone was basically "as you were".

Either way I agree Star Wars was on a high plane, and since Iron Man and the MCU have been so successful, there's no reason to assume Star Wars needed "saving".
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Offline Rob Dylan

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Offline fowlermagic

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Trying to watch it on Sky over the past week and lost interest half ways through and came back the next day or two to see the end of it. Def one for the big screen but could not hold back a laugh at the end when Luke and whatever her name is stare into each other's eyes for way too long. Hardly a cliff ending finish.
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Offline Haemoglobin

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Def one for the big screen but could not hold back a laugh at the end when Luke and whatever her name is stare into each other's eyes for way too long. Hardly a cliff ending finish.
It is on a cliff though. And then it ends. How more 'cliff-ending' a finish could you hope for?  ;D


But I agree, not the most well put together of massively significant climaxes. No big deal, but again something most are going much easier on the film for out of goodwill than you probably would others. It's not a film that deserves defending with your life, nor ripping to shreds.

I don't personally think it needed to straight-up rehash so much from the early films to "repair the damage" supposedly caused by the prequels; I think that's just a bit of a cop out to be honest. All that feeling like Star Wars again! stuff gets done just fine through the cinematography, elaborate sets, use of puppetry and such, and the many moments of standout classic SW imagery peppered throughout the flick... you can do all that while also following your own story path and coming up with some great threat other than yet another Death Star.

In time it most certainy won't be considered a paticularly strong/thrilling/inspiring/funny/whatever episode, and it really didn't have to just be some pacifying stopgap to remind you of what Star Wars is while the next eps promise to do the proper business, it could have been more than that, easily. That's not a plus point for me, taken as an individual film like any other offering. I really like the good stuff in there, the new characters (especially Kylo Ren) and seqences of real momentous drama... I don't dislike it. But all in all, it's hard to get worked up about it one way or the other - I think people are expelling a tad too much steam from yer opposing angles, more than the actual film we got has any right to inspire.
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Re: **SPOILERS** Star Wars: The Force Awakens **SPOILERS** Now with genuine spoilers
« Reply #1611 on: September 17, 2016, 02:15:59 pm »
<a href="https://youtube.com/v/w7l5At0jLI8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/w7l5At0jLI8</a>

https://ilmchallenge.artstation.com/

The guy who won, his style reminds me of the concept work Mobius did.



I really like the 2nd place guys work as well.



The Endor sunset has a really nice warmth that leaps out.



There is a lot of great stuff there though.

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Offline oojason

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The Plinkett Awakens...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/miVRaoR_8xQ?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/miVRaoR_8xQ?fs=1</a>


or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miVRaoR_8xQ
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Offline Kashinoda

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Came to post, brilliant again :D
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Offline Redman0151

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Haha, glad he ripped into the bullshit ring theory and the rise in prequel apologists flying about
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Offline Something Worse

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Haha, glad he ripped into the bullshit ring theory and the rise in prequel apologists flying about

I'd watch the prequels before I watch 7 again. They're still not good though.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Red Letter Media strike again! Awesome review, though this pales into insignificance compared to their' George Lucas Salad Unboxing' masterpiece.

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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I'd watch the prequels before I watch 7 again. They're still not good though.

You'd rather sit through about 8 hours of crap than 2 hours of crap*? Makes no sense to me if you think its all crap.

*not my personal opinion
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Red Letter Media strike again! Awesome review, though this pales into insignificance compared to their' George Lucas Salad Unboxing' masterpiece.

Some really great stuff on their Youtube channel :) Best of the worst kills me :D

Offline Something Worse

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You'd rather sit through about 8 hours of crap than 2 hours of crap*? Makes no sense to me if you think its all crap.

*not my personal opinion

I'd rather watch something else, honestly.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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I'd rather watch something else, honestly.

;D Fair enough, can't argue with that.
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Offline Something Worse

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;D Fair enough, can't argue with that.

Haha sorry your post probably deserved a better answer! As weird as it sounds, I think there was ambition in the prequels. Poorly realised but definitely present. 7 just felt so samey. I couldn't watch that whole red letter thing because his gimmick was brutal, but the last half kinda said the same thing I was feeling you know?
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Offline Stevie-A

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Some really great stuff on their Youtube channel :) Best of the worst kills me :D

Indeed. Xtro and R.O.T.O.R. reviews were brilliant. Oh, and the majesty of Neil Breen's Double Down.

Offline Paul JH

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The only thing I don't understand with things like that Plinkett video, is if Star Wars is such an utter pile of shite still, 17 years after The Phantom Menace, why devote any time to ritualistically ripping the shit out of it constantly? If it's so shite to people, then move along to something else. There's shit loads of sci-fi you could devote time to, you know, enjoying?

Rather than hating it, seemingly intent on wasting moments of your life hating it, where you could be enjoying something you DO like?
Or patronisingly and cynically telling people that might like it they are wrong and stupid for doing so?

Just a thought.

And if it's a 'but it's been ruined since the originals' then just stick to watching them? They are a self contained set of movies you can enjoy without watching any of the new stuff.

(although I could also have just summed up the modern world there)
 ???
« Last Edit: October 5, 2016, 09:08:53 am by Paul JH »
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^ dude, this is the internet.

Moaning and crying about something and still doing it/watching it is what a lot of the internet is full of. These peoples' usual defence is "but I still like it, I'm just raising my concerns so that it might get better"

To which I usually say fuck off. If you no longer like something, ditch it.

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The only thing I don't understand with things like that Plinkett video, is if Star Wars is such an utter pile of shite still, 17 years after The Phantom Menace, why devote any time to ritualistically ripping the shit out of it constantly? If it's so shite to people, then move along to something else. There's shit loads of sci-fi you could devote time to, you know, enjoying?

I don't think they were very harsh on Awakes, seems to like most of it just the odd thing that I think most would agree with....perhaps a few hints for E8?

Offline oojason

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new Russian Rogue One poster...




some new (& some not-so-new) characters for Rogue One...

http://makingstarwars.net/2016/10/new-character-images-from-rogue-one-a-star-wars-story/

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Offline oojason

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The only thing I don't understand with things like that Plinkett video, is if Star Wars is such an utter pile of shite still, 17 years after The Phantom Menace, why devote any time to ritualistically ripping the shit out of it constantly? If it's so shite to people, then move along to something else. There's shit loads of sci-fi you could devote time to, you know, enjoying?

Rather than hating it, seemingly intent on wasting moments of your life hating it, where you could be enjoying something you DO like?
Or patronisingly and cynically telling people that might like it they are wrong and stupid for doing so?

Just a thought.

And if it's a 'but it's been ruined since the originals' then just stick to watching them? They are a self contained set of movies you can enjoy without watching any of the new stuff.

(although I could also have just summed up the modern world there)
 ???

To be fair to Plinkett he does love his sci-fi - and has reviewed a fair few films as both Plinkett and part of the larger RedLetterMedia gang in various guises (as mentioned before on here his review for Xtro and the other 2 terrible films shows his yearning for a well-made film) - even back in the shallow days of the 80's where there were just so many nonsensical duds you wonder how they got funding for them).

He was one of the first 'back in the day' to constructively - and somewhat painstakingly - critique A Phantom Menace, and for me, the disappointments that the following 2 films stayed on that path comes through as a missed opportunity to which Lucas/Lucasfilm and the people around didn't seem able to correct/evolve, also come through.

As well, he should, he is a film critic afterall - and his review of TPM resonated with a fair few SW fans, and sci-fi fans in general. For balance he does point the better parts of films (good bad and indifferent) too - as well as the 'lesser' parts.


For me he doesn't bash TFA, in fact the first 50 mins or so addresses the revisionism and PR for recent media on the Prequels, including the Ring Theory mess and those click-bait lists. Then a concern for Disney taking over SW and then the film system itself (including it's love of reboots), and an explanation why they went in the direction they did for setting the ground for a series of SW films by Disney... and then commentating on the film itself - positive and negative - quite late on in his review (and more).


He's not everyone's cup of tea (is Plinkett), but for me he does what too few film critics do - he's not afraid of losing clicks or subscribers from saying something controversial - or criticising the industry itself.
« Last Edit: October 5, 2016, 02:11:14 pm by oojason »
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Offline Macphisto80

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To be fair to Plinkett he does love his sci-fi - and has reviewed a fair few films as both Plinkett and part of the larger RedLetterMedia gang in various guises (as mentioned before on here his review for Xtro and the other 2 terrible films shows his yearning for a well-made film) - even back in the shallow days of the 80's where there were just so many nonsensical duds you wonder how they got funding for them).

He was one of the first 'back in the day' to constructively - and somewhat painstakingly - critique A Phantom Menace, and for me, the disappointments that the following 2 films stayed on that path comes through as a missed opportunity to which Lucas/Lucasfilm and the people around didn't seem able to correct/evolve, also come through.

As well, he should, he is a film critic afterall - and his review of TPM resonated with a fair few SW fans, and sci-fi fans in general. For balance he does point the better parts of films (good bad and indifferent) too - as well as the 'lesser' parts.


For me he doesn't bash TFA, in fact the first 50 mins or so addresses the revisionism and PR for recent media on the Prequels, including the Ring Theory mess and those click-bait lists. Then a concern for Disney taking over SW and then the film system itself (including it's love of reboots), and an explanation why they went in the direction they did for setting the ground for a series of SW films by Disney... and then commentating on the film itself - positive and negative - quite late on in his review (and more).


He's not everyone's cup of tea (is Plinkett), but for me he does what too few film critics do - he's not afraid of losing clicks or subscribers from saying something controversial - or criticising the industry itself.
Exactly. His videos are much more than just hating something for the sake of hating something, or because it's trendy to do so. They are more than just reviews, and that latest video is more of an attack on the money machine conveyer belt that is modern Hollywood than a harsh critique on just the film. As I said, he's not nitpicking or shitting on it for the sake of it. I didn't really like TFA when I first saw it for the reasons he went into, and I dislike it even more after the second viewing.

As for Rogue 1, I'll only consider going to see that if it's something different, which I don't think it's going to be. There's only so many times you can have a Death Star in a film.

Offline Redman0151

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The only thing I don't understand with things like that Plinkett video, is if Star Wars is such an utter pile of shite still, 17 years after The Phantom Menace, why devote any time to ritualistically ripping the shit out of it constantly? If it's so shite to people, then move along to something else. There's shit loads of sci-fi you could devote time to, you know, enjoying?

Rather than hating it, seemingly intent on wasting moments of your life hating it, where you could be enjoying something you DO like?
Or patronisingly and cynically telling people that might like it they are wrong and stupid for doing so?

Just a thought.

And if it's a 'but it's been ruined since the originals' then just stick to watching them? They are a self contained set of movies you can enjoy without watching any of the new stuff.

(although I could also have just summed up the modern world there)
 ???

Well Red Letter Media aren't "constantly" ripping it, it's the first video that's directly analysed the prequels since the original reviews starting back in 2009. The first half of the video isn't just beating a dead horse, it's a response to the nonsense and shitty clickbait articles coming up with weak defences for the quality of the prequels. By all means, like what you enjoy, but when people start saying shit like "the prequels are cleverer than you think!" and trying to add false depth to obvious lazy shitty movies, then they should be called out. On a cynical note, the Plinkett prequel reviews are what catapulted RLM into internet fame and notoriety, and it's made them a lot of money, so there's that too.

Mike doesn't hate Star Wars, he loves it, just like he loves Star Trek, Alien etc.. I'd say most of the review of TFA (which Mike liked) wasn't just shitting on Star Wars, it was shitting on the rise of nonsense praise, and the cynical Hollywood machine. Also thanks to Lucas, it's pretty hard to find the originals now, because he decided to go back and piss about with the movies adding/changing scenes many years later, and that's the only version that is sold now.

In his initial review he said TFA was everything it needed to be, and said it was a "masterfully done" soft reboot, he just hopes now that they've set everything up, they do something new and interesting, not just keep treading over old ground and rehashing stuff, like they did with the 2nd star trek movie
« Last Edit: October 5, 2016, 05:45:59 pm by Crosby Wych »
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