Topic: FSG (*)

[Dave D]

The problem is you've no fucking idea what the accounts show. You've zero idea if it is a concern or not. You've seen a rise and you want answers, not that you're really entitled to them, or in any position to need an answer to them.

What next, a demand to know how much we're paying for tea bags? What rate we're paying for leccy at Melwood? Just how much fabric softener they're using on the players socks?

You could give us another one of your famous guesses on where the 25% rise in wages came from and we'll take it from there.

If you're privy to information in relation to the wages, then please share them with us. At the moment nobody from outside the club can work out where the money has gone, even using worst case scenarios on the players and staff (football side), no one can get close to the figure.

Why don't you help us out.

[CraigDS]

You could give us another one of your famous guesses on where the 25% rise in wages came from and we'll take it from there.

If you're privy to information in relation to the wages, then please share them with us. At the moment nobody from outside the club can work out where the money has gone, even using worst case scenarios on the players and staff (football side), no one can get close to the figure.

Why don't you help us out.

So you can reply with some attempt at a smart arsed prick of a comment?

Are you trying to suggest there is some underhand accounting going on to get money out of the club?

[Dave D]

So you can reply with some attempt at a smart arsed prick of a comment?

Are you trying to suggest there is some underhand accounting going on to get money out of the club?

I don’t think anyone could say for definite if there is, or is not, “some underhand accounting going on to get money out of the club”.

If you’ve worked out where the money has gone, please share it with us. I haven’t seen anyone able to figure it out yet.

[CraigDS]

I don’t think anyone could say for definite if there is, or is not, “some underhand accounting going on to get money out of the club”.

You do realise the accounts are fully audited by an outside company. Are you suggesting they are also implicated in filtering money out of the club?

[Dave D]

You do realise the accounts are fully audited by an outside company. Are you suggesting they are also implicated in filtering money out of the club?

I don't believe i've suggested that. I get the feeling you're imagining conversations and posts in this thread that don't actually exist. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?

I think we should get this thread back on track. Can you give us a breakdown on where you believe the 25% increase went?

[CraigDS]

I don't believe i've suggested that. I get the feeling you're imagining conversations and posts in this thread that don't actually exist. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?

I think we should get this thread back on track. Can you give us a breakdown on where you believe the 25% increase went?

You said no one could say for certain, which is pretty much suggesting it. However given the accounts are fully audited, it would be pretty impossible to do, certainly via the increase in wages.

And I gave you a breakdown where it will be the first time you mentioned it, which is when you came back with the smart arsed commented I referred to above regarding 'guessing'.

The money has gone on wages, simple as. Mixed between increases in deals for Klopp and his staff (over Rodgers), and increases in player wages (mixed between bonus payments for an extended European and cup run to the final, and new deals). Add in the additional commercial staff which will take up a much smaller part of the increase and you come up with that total there.

[Fairytale of 2005]

So you can reply with some attempt at a smart arsed prick of a comment?

Are you trying to suggest there is some underhand accounting going on to get money out of the club?

Why are you trying to goad someone in to posting a potentially libellous comment?

[CraigDS]

Why are you trying to goad someone in to posting a potentially libellous comment?

Because I'm asking if that is what he is suggesting? As if not I'm really not sure what the point being raised is? Does he want a breakdown of what every employee is on?

If he isn't suggesting it then there is no problem with what I'm asking, as his answer is no. If he is then that's his issue, not mine for asking the question.

[Dave D]

The money has gone on wages, simple as. Mixed between increases in deals for Klopp and his staff (over Rodgers), and increases in player wages (mixed between bonus payments for an extended European and cup run to the final, and new deals). Add in the additional commercial staff which will take up a much smaller part of the increase and you come up with that total there.

Of course the money has gone on wages, that’s what we’re discussing.

You can’t really believe what you wrote above adds up to £42m.

Are you suggesting that the owners who are referred to by some as ‘business savvy’ and ‘here to win’, have structured the players’ bonuses in such a way that by simply reaching a couple of finals pushes our wages to turnover ratio over 69% in just one season. Reaching the champions league and giving the players a percentage of the guaranteed income I can understand. Handing out bonuses massively greater than the money generated from reaching finals isn’t going to work for a team with the ambition for reaching finals year after year.

Players, managers and coaches have decreased by 6. Administration, commercial and other have increased by 62.

The logical conclusion is that an insane amount either went to Jürgen or Administration, commercial and other. Or perhaps both.

The accounts have only been out 20 days, I think it’s reasonable for people to be asking questions in relation to them.

[NaivetyinBlack]

I don't believe i've suggested that.

I don’t think anyone could say for definite if there is, or is not, “some underhand accounting going on to get money out of the club”.

The art of 'subtle' implication. Very Trump-like I must say

[NaivetyinBlack]

The logical conclusion is that an insane amount either went to Jürgen or Administration, commercial and other. Or perhaps both.

No it's not. Its conjecture, unless you have the details of all wages going to every member of LFC. And its the kind of conjecture which is really harmful, as no one will ever be able to prove it either way (except for the accounting and auditors). You should refrain from coming to these 'conclusions'.

[Eeyore]

Why are you trying to goad someone in to posting a potentially libellous comment?

Very simply to deflect away from the salient point Dave brought up regarding FSG and H&G using Vero to spin their way into getting the fans onside.

[Eeyore]

No it's not. Its conjecture, unless you have the details of all wages going to every member of LFC. And its the kind of conjecture which is really harmful, as no one will ever be able to prove it either way (except for the accounting and auditors). You should refrain from coming to these 'conclusions'.

I agree with you mate.

It is conjecture and should be refrained from. The thing is though you seem reticent to pull up people using the increased wage bill as a sign of FSG ambitions. Isn't that equally as dangerous ?

[Eeyore]

It's only my opinion, but I know what I am and I know where I'm from.

I'd guess most anti FSGers are Scousers to whom most if not all capitalists are just that.

Why do you constantly try and turn this into a battle between scousers and out of towners and make wild assumptions about people's reasons for being sceptical of FSG.

Isn't it all about shades of grey.

The funniest bit is the people who are more positive about FSG trying to portray anyone with misgivings about FSG as being rabid socialists one second and desperate for a sugar daddy the next.

I have been trying not to post in this thread but popped in for a read only to find posters launching personal attacks against me and others people who are sceptical of FSG.

All I hear is that I have an agenda and duck questions which I find strange.

Firstly without question I have answered more questions in this thread than anyone but that isn't good enough because not answering questions in the way I am supposed to is seen as ducking the question or shifting the goal posts.

Secondly I have made countless posts on here praising FSG for all kinds of things. Firstly that they actually bought us and steadied the ship. No one mentions that but they jump on the bit were I clarify the point by saying they didn't save us from administration because there were two bidders offering the same amount.

Another example is my constant theme of saying FSG have a 7 or 8 on the business side but poor from a Football perspective. Strangely no one takes exception to the first part but slaughter me for the second.

And on we go re the main stand I praise them for redeveloping the Main Stand but balance it out by saying that I wish they had done more and that it would be beneficial to the club if they invested their money in the stand because it is allowed under FFP. Guess which bits get cherry picked.

So basically what happens is I say FSG have done good things and bad. The thing is though you only get picked up on the latter. Then when you explain why you are accused of having an agenda. So with that I am out before I tell everyone what I think of certain posters and get banned.

[Pistolero]

I'd guess most anti FSGers are Scousers to whom most if not all capitalists are just that.

What gives with the Scouse bigotry?, that's several times now you've used the term pejoratively...

[CraigDS]

Of course the money has gone on wages, that’s what we’re discussing.

You can’t really believe what you wrote above adds up to £42m.

These two lines contradict each other.

If you don't believe it adds up to £42m then you're saying it hasn't all gone on wages and something dodgy is going on.

Otherwise you agree it's all gone on wages so where is the issue?

Are you suggesting that the owners who are referred to by some as ‘business savvy’ and ‘here to win’, have structured the players’ bonuses in such a way that by simply reaching a couple of finals pushes our wages to turnover ratio over 69% in just one season. Reaching the champions league and giving the players a percentage of the guaranteed income I can understand. Handing out bonuses massively greater than the money generated from reaching finals isn’t going to work for a team with the ambition for reaching finals year after year.

I didn't suggest the bonuses were the majority, I said they'd be part of the increase. Of course they are, as standard all our players will have European appearance and success clauses in their contracts. It will be those coupled with increases to the managerial and coaching staff pay, new player contracts, new deals for existing players, and commercial and admin staff.

Players, managers and coaches have decreased by 6. Administration, commercial and other have increased by 62.

The logical conclusion is that an insane amount either went to Jürgen or Administration, commercial and other. Or perhaps both.

Yeah that's logical, as long as you also factor in the largest wage takers at any football club too - the ones earning tens of thousands each a week.

As pointed out, even if all 62 of the commercial/admin staff were on £100k each a year (bearing in mind a lot of those admin staff will be the likes of ticket sales and general admin roles) then that is still only approx £6.2m a year. Even massively exaggerating the wages for these 62 people there is no chance they have taken up more than say £10m in wages.

The accounts have only been out 20 days, I think it’s reasonable for people to be asking questions in relation to them.

Agreed. Happy to look and ask questions, have done every year for a long long while now.

However I'm really unsure what you're asking here. Do you not believe these are all wages? Do you want the club to release a breakdown of what everyone is being paid?

[rawcusk8]

Internation break means this thread is going to be 10x more f**ked up than it usually is. Go wild fellas

[Billy The Kid]

At the moment nobody from outside the club can work out where the money has gone, even using worst case scenarios on the players and staff (football side), no one can get close to the figure.

Maybe the reason they can't work it out is because

1. As you say, they're from outside the club
2. They don't have any knowledge of corporate accounting
3. They aren't actually privy to how our finances are structured

Some of you seem to think that looking at the accounts of one of the biggest football clubs in the world is the same thing as looking at an income and expense sheet for the average Joe Soap household.

[NaivetyinBlack]

I agree with you mate.

It is conjecture and should be refrained from. The thing is though you seem reticent to pull up people using the increased wage bill as a sign of FSG ambitions. Isn't that equally as dangerous ?

What ? No I'm not.

In fact, I would go as far as saying that the wages / turnover ratio is something that is concerning, from the books. But we don't know the exact reasons or distribution of those wages. What I will not accept is the explanations people come up with, automatically suggesting that FSG are somehow pocketing the extra wages.

[jambutty]

What gives with the Scouse bigotry?, that's several times now you've used the term pejoratively...

I try not to interact with you but since you ask the question I will respond.

I think most OOTers are very happy with FSG and it appears to me that most of the virulent opposition comes from Scousers.  Probably SOS members.

I belong to both groups and understand the untrusting nature.

I could be wrong.

[El Lobo]

I think it was the wise Karl Pilkington who said 'a bit of guesswork is close to the truth'

[Dave D]

As pointed out, even if all 62 of the commercial/admin staff were on £100k each a year (bearing in mind a lot of those admin staff will be the likes of ticket sales and general admin roles) then that is still only approx £6.2m a year. Even massively exaggerating the wages for these 62 people there is no chance they have taken up more than say £10m in wages.


Agreed. Happy to look and ask questions, have done every year for a long long while now.

However I'm really unsure what you're asking here. Do you not believe these are all wages? Do you want the club to release a breakdown of what everyone is being paid?

Obviously a lot of the admin staff would be general admin. I had no idea about the increase in ticket sales staff. Do you know how many we hired?

You do raise an interesting point though. It would be useful to know the exact breakdown of the 62 admin/commercial/other staff hired.

We don't need to know what the tea lady is earning. We could start by using your arbitrary figure of £100k. I think a lot of fans would be interested in seeing how many people earned £100k+ at the club.

[CraigDS]

Obviously a lot of the admin staff would be general admin. I had no idea about the increase in ticket sales staff. Do you know how many we hired?

The ticket sales was an example of the type of staff we will have taken on. There will be many along those lines of general admin/sales staff within stores/etc.

You do raise an interesting point though. It would be useful to know the exact breakdown of the 62 admin/commercial/other staff hired.

We don't need to know what the tea lady is earning. We could start by using your arbitrary figure of £100k. I think a lot of fans would be interested in seeing how many people earned £100k+ at the club.

Why do we as fans need to know this - what will it achieve? At the end of the day this is a private company, not a fan owned company, so little to no chance of getting a break down of what people earn or where people are being hired/fired.

[Chakan]

We don't need to know what the tea lady is earning. We could start by using your arbitrary figure of £100k. I think a lot of fans would be interested in seeing how many people earned £100k+ at the club.

I'm curious how you would react if someone off the street took an interest in your business and your business decided to give them your salary amount.

[CraigDS]

I'm curious how you would react if someone off the street took an interest in your business and your business decided to give them your salary amount.

This is what I don't get.

There is having genuine concerns when there is something wrong showing (levels of debt, etc) but then there is simply wanting to know stuff which just isn't really in the remit of a fan and what is a private company. Especially when an increase in wages is not a sign of anything untoward, even if you can't work out where they've gone exactly.

[NaivetyinBlack]

It would be useful to know the exact breakdown of the 62 admin/commercial/other staff hired.

This is something not even people employed at LFC would be privy to as every employment contract is personal. And no one, ever, divulges a complete breakdown of their company's wages.

Your expectations are absurd.

[Chakan]

This is what I don't get.

There is having genuine concerns when there is something wrong showing (levels of debt, etc) but then there is simply wanting to know stuff which just isn't really in the remit of a fan and what is a private company. Especially when an increase in wages is not a sign of anything untoward, even if you can't work out where they've gone exactly.

It's like me walking into Microsoft and demanding to know what everyone is earning because I use windows 10.

[Dave D]

The ticket sales was an example of the type of staff we will have taken on. There will be many along those lines of general admin/sales staff within stores/etc.


Why do we as fans need to know this - what will it achieve? At the end of the day this is a private company, not a fan owned company, so little to no chance of getting a break down of what people earn or where people are being hired/fired.

If we’re unable to explain the massive increase in wages, then we’re unable to claim it will never happen again and we’re unable to say the increase in TV revenue will cover it.

Another 25% increase and that TV money is wiped out.

I think people would like to know if having a negative net spend on our transfers this season really was down to players not being available, or if it was required to pay the wages and balance the books.

[jambutty]

I think our owners are shrewd investors making sound Business decisions.

Who probably know a little more about running one than Al.

[newrosswaterford]

It's like me walking into Microsoft and demanding to know what everyone is earning because I use windows 10.

My god.

The fans that go to matches are a huge part of the game. I mean try run a club with no one in the arena/stadia or 40k outside roaring for the removal of the owners.

Maybe it's about time we remember the power we possess as fans and supporters and stop listening to idiots tell us we are only customers.

[El Lobo]

My god.

The fans that go to matches are a huge part of the game. I mean try run a club with no one in the arena/stadia or 40k outside roaring for the removal of the owners.

Maybe it's about time we remember the power we possess as fans and supporters and stop listening to idiots tell us we are only customers.

Right? And the people that buy computers are a huge part of Microsoft. I mean, try and run a computer company with no-one buying computers.

[El Lobo]

If we’re unable to explain the massive increase in wages, then we’re unable to claim it will never happen again and we’re unable to say the increase in TV revenue will cover it.

Another 25% increase and that TV money is wiped out.

I think people would like to know if having a negative net spend on our transfers this season really was down to players not being available, or if it was required to pay the wages and balance the books.

As a supporter, its your prerogative to want to know the ins and outs of absolutely everything that goes on at the club in detail. As a person with even half a braincell, its probably logical to understand that its never, ever going to happen and isn't remotely feasible to explain every single decision in order to appease some negative people on a football forum.

[Chakan]

My god.

The fans that go to matches are a huge part of the game. I mean try run a club with no one in the arena/stadia or 40k outside roaring for the removal of the owners.

Maybe it's about time we remember the power we possess as fans and supporters and stop listening to idiots tell us we are only customers.

What does this have to do with seeing who earns over 100k at Liverpool?

[jambutty]

So with that I am out before I tell everyone what I think of certain posters and get banned.

Oi!

Get your pansy arse back on here.

You argue your side well and your points have validity.  You have your backers and you all belong here to inform FSG as to supporter concerns.

We're all Reds here.

YNWA

[DangerScouse]

I try not to interact with you but since you ask the question I will respond.

I think most OOTers are very happy with FSG and it appears to me that most of the virulent opposition comes from Scousers.  Probably SOS members.

I belong to both groups and understand the untrusting nature.

I could be wrong.

What are you basing this on?

[Doc Red]

Right? And the people that buy computers are a huge part of Microsoft. I mean, try and run a computer company with no-one buying computers.

You're not really implying that the relationship between supporters and the club are akin to that between Microsoft users and Microsoft?

I think most OOTers are very happy with FSG and it appears to me that most of the virulent opposition comes from Scousers.  Probably SOS members.

Not sure how you deduced that. But if that is the case, I'll be expecting my honorary Scouser badge any time now.

[Chakan]

You're not really implying that the relationship between supporters and the club are akin to that between Microsoft users and Microsoft?

You're missing the point, read the posts that lead up to that.

[Doc Red]

I'm curious how you would react if someone off the street took an interest in your business and your business decided to give them your salary amount.

You're missing the point, read the posts that lead up to that.

I did. You're equating  a supporter of the club asking questions concerning financial issues of the club with that of a random person on the street asking a question about a random employees salary. Another example was used equating Microsoft customers with Microsoft.

[Chakan]

I did. You're equating  a supporter of the club asking questions concerning financial issues of the club with that of a random person on the street asking a question about a random employees salary. Another example was used equating Microsoft customers with Microsoft.

So you think Dave D has every right to see employees salaries of someone working at Liverpool FC, especially those earning more than 100k, because Dave D supports Liverpool?

[rafathegaffa83]

It's like me walking into Microsoft and demanding to know what everyone is earning because I use windows 10.

Exactly. Even most publicly regulated companies like utilities (whether they are private or publicly owned) would not be requested to give out that level of information.