Author Topic: FSG (*)  (Read 839804 times)

Offline jambutty

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6840 on: March 18, 2017, 11:19:36 am »
If Philip Hammond and the whole of the Trump administration had half of the knowledge, passion and enthusiasm of Craig and Al the world would be a better place - as long as Al and Craig don't have access to nuclear weapons. ;)

But.... but... but... They lied!

And the emails...............
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6841 on: March 18, 2017, 11:20:46 am »
Good job they got it for a steal then isn't it mate. Let's face it if they put the equity in for the Main Stand then the Club would still be worth much more than their total investment. Or are you suggesting that every decision should be taken in isolation and be for the benefit of FSG.

The problem is you're looking at it from the other side of the coin in that every decision should be taken solely for the benefit of LFC. Which as a fan is exactly what we would ALL want to see, totally agree.

Now of course, in a perfect world, we'd have some sort of owner who could do this. Fan ownership couldn't (where would the funds come from to put in as equity?) as we'd be funding it the same where the additional income pays for it. So you're talking Roman/Sheik territory here. However we don't have that sort of owner, few clubs do, regardless of club cost and club value.

There really isn't anything wrong with the clubs additional income paying for the clubs investment in itself (be it stadium, players, new coffee machine, whatever). It's not the fast track route to catching up with the spending power of those above us, but it is a route there.

Offline John C

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6842 on: March 18, 2017, 11:25:09 am »
They are investors that is what they do. So why not invest in their business, put the equity in to fund the Main Stand and make the Club more competitive. Making the Club more competitive means it has a better chance of being successful which increases revenues which further increases the value of their investment. A virtuos circle.

Given the massive increase in the value of their investment since 2010 there is no risk involved plus it is allowed under FFP.
Yeah I understand the theory that they could / should pay for the MS and off set it against their eventual huge profit, perhaps even gain some income from a sponsorship deal - that's what I thought your main gripe was. So that's why I didn't understand when you said "I am not talking about FSG being a sugar daddy and putting in money they will not get back".

Offline Narwin Dunez

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6843 on: March 18, 2017, 11:31:40 am »
Al you stopped replying yesterday when I asked you to explain to me how buying the club with 237m of debt and leaving 20-40m debt currently(by using available public figures)  means that they've taken money out. You gave me some spin about hicks and Gillette and then moved the conversation on, but not before a wild assertion that fsg have increased our debt by 400%

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6844 on: March 18, 2017, 11:37:58 am »
Yeah I understand the theory that they could / should pay for the MS and off set it against their eventual huge profit, perhaps even gain some income from a sponsorship deal - that's what I thought your main gripe was. So that's why I didn't understand when you said "I am not talking about FSG being a sugar daddy and putting in money they will not get back".

Just talking about the perception amongst some posters that there are only two options FSG acting like a Chelsea/City type benefactor or the Club effectively paying for things out of the till. There is third option as you say FSG investing in the Main Stand and waiting for the pay off.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6845 on: March 18, 2017, 11:41:14 am »
Al you stopped replying yesterday when I asked you to explain to me how buying the club with 237m of debt and leaving 20-40m debt currently(by using available public figures)  means that they've taken money out. You gave me some spin about hicks and Gillette and then moved the conversation on, but not before a wild assertion that fsg have increased our debt by 400%

How is it a Wild assumption if you add up our current debt, the money we owe to FSG for the main stand plus our ongoing borrowing from financial institutions it is around 4 times the debt at day one of FSG's tenure.

I haven't mentioned that FSG have taken money out of the Club.
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Offline Narwin Dunez

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6846 on: March 18, 2017, 11:48:22 am »
How is it a Wild assumption if you add up our current debt, the money we owe to FSG for the main stand plus our ongoing borrowing from financial institutions it is around 4 times the debt at day one of FSG's tenure.

I haven't mentioned that FSG have taken money out of the Club.

Current debt plus ongoing borrowing? Isn't that one and the same?

Maybe it wasn't you saying they were taking the money out, seemed on your side did. It's a big thread I could have got jumbled.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 11:54:07 am by Le Jake »

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6847 on: March 18, 2017, 11:51:00 am »
How is it a Wild assumption if you add up our current debt, the money we owe to FSG for the main stand plus our ongoing borrowing from financial institutions it is around 4 times the debt at day one of FSG's tenure.

To May 2015...



In May 2016 accounts..

Amount to banks: £55,000,000 (using a new £150m credit facility @ 2.24% interest which matures in 2020).
Intercompany: £109,904,000 (using a non-maturing loan @ 1.24% interest)

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6848 on: March 18, 2017, 11:57:14 am »
Current debt plus ongoing borrowing? Isn't that one and the same?

Our current debt is what we owe FSG plus what we owe the banks. The main stand is likely to be 100m + at this stage then there is the credit facilities that we are currently using.  Around about 150m according to totalsportek.
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Offline Narwin Dunez

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6849 on: March 18, 2017, 11:57:38 am »
To May 2015...



They're the sort of figures and facts I see, and am comfortable with considering what we used to have.

Offline vivabobbygraham

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6850 on: March 18, 2017, 12:18:25 pm »


........Invest my arse they have got the cheek to charge us interest on a Stand they own and which increases the value of their investment.

And then pay themselves back for building it? Is that right? That's doubling it isn't it?..........maths is not my strongpoint!
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Offline ToneLa

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6851 on: March 18, 2017, 12:25:15 pm »
Our current debt is what we owe FSG plus what we owe the banks. The main stand is likely to be 100m + at this stage then there is the credit facilities that we are currently using.  Around about 150m according to totalsportek.

What do you want to actually do about it though?

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6852 on: March 18, 2017, 12:45:25 pm »
They're the sort of figures and facts I see, and am comfortable with considering what we used to have.

So in the last accounts we had a turnover of £301.8m and debts of £164.9m plus a wage bill of £208.25m.

They are not great figures but as you say just ignore that and bring up H&G as a comparison.

It's a bit like being comfortable having Trump as the most powerful man in world because it used to be Adolf Hitler.

Can we stop lowering the bar to H&G levels and then accepting anything better than that. Surely we should all be striving for LFC to be the best it possibly can be whether that is the owners, the managers, the fans or the players.

We didn't put up with Charlie Adam because whilst he wasn't great he was better than Poulson or keep Martin Kelly because he was better than the Konch so why accept FSG's slow stuttering progress just because they aren't as bad as H&G.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6853 on: March 18, 2017, 12:48:03 pm »
So in the last accounts we had a turnover of £301.8m and debts of £164.9m plus a wage bill of £208.25m.

You can't just add up the wage and debt figures and compare it to the revenue to come to some sort of conclusion. It's an utterly pointless financial comparison to make.

Quote
They are not great figures but as you say just ignore that and bring up H&G as a comparison.

It's a bit like being comfortable having Trump as the most powerful man in world because it used to be Adolf Hitler.

Can we stop lowering the bar to H&G levels and then accepting anything better than that. Surely we should all be striving for LFC to be the best it possibly can be whether that is the owners, the managers, the fans or the players.

We didn't put up with Charlie Adam because whilst he wasn't great he was better than Poulson or keep Martin Kelly because he was better than the Konch so why accept FSG's slow stuttering progress just because they aren't as bad as H&G.

It's nothing to do with H&G, it's all about having an ability to properly understand the financials.

You either don't understand them, or are deliberately twisting them to push some agenda. I'm unsure which.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6854 on: March 18, 2017, 12:57:54 pm »
You can't just add up the wage and debt figures and compare it to the revenue to come to some sort of conclusion. It's an utterly pointless financial comparison to make.

It's nothing to do with H&G, it's all about having an ability to properly understand the financials.

You either don't understand them, or are deliberately twisting them to push some agenda. I'm unsure which.

Twisting them how very dare you.

Are you really suggesting that wages to turnover is an utterly pointless financial comparison to make ?

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Offline CraigDS

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6855 on: March 18, 2017, 01:00:29 pm »
Twisting them how very dare you.

Are you really suggesting that wages to turnover is an utterly pointless financial comparison to make ?

No, I'm suggesting wages + debt to turnover, which is what you did there, is an utterly pointless financial comparison to make.

Wages to turnover is perfectly fine, but it has nothing to do with the overall debt figure, so is not relevant here do please don't do one of your legendary swerves to that subject.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6856 on: March 18, 2017, 01:00:43 pm »
What do you want to actually do about it though?

Get people to look beyond the FSG PR machine.
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Offline Johnny Foreigner

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6857 on: March 18, 2017, 01:01:36 pm »
You can't just add up the wage and debt figures and compare it to the revenue to come to some sort of conclusion. It's an utterly pointless financial comparison to make.


We are a footballing operation, but since there are so much focus on FSG running the business properly, it would be good go have calculated the enclosed. I particularly find the "grow the business" interesting..




"The net debt to EBITDA ratio is popular with analysts because it takes into account a company's ability to decrease its debt. Ratios higher than 4 or 5 typically set off alarm bells because this indicates that a company is less likely to be able to handle its debt burden, and thus is less likely to be able to take on the additional debt required to grow the business."
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Offline ToneLa

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6858 on: March 18, 2017, 01:03:06 pm »
Get people to look beyond the FSG PR machine.

But what's the endgame of that? Protests? Not that I mind protesting something worthwhile, but this thread hasn't altered in months... lots of talk with no result IMO

Offline Johnny Foreigner

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6859 on: March 18, 2017, 01:04:07 pm »
No, I'm suggesting wages + debt to turnover, which is what you did there, is an utterly pointless financial comparison to make.

Wages to turnover is perfectly fine, but it has nothing to do with the overall debt figure, so is not relevant here do please don't do one of your legendary swerves to that subject.

Is Bayern munich the perfect footballing operation ?

The enclosed at least indicated so

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1638221-is-bayern-munich-the-perfect-working-model-of-a-modern-football-club

From 2013, and i think they  actually decreased fan ownership to 75 %; I assume to bring capital to the table, but the enclosed also quite interesting..

"In addition to posting profits yearly, Bayern is financially healthy because it relies little on debt. According to Forbes, Bayern's debt-to-revenue ratio is five percent, well below English competitors like Manchester United and Arsenal. Chelsea has no debt but has relied on heavy investment from a single investor, billionaire owner Roman Abramovich.

Bayern relies neither on debt nor a single investor, who could leave the club at any time. Instead, fans own nearly 82 percent of Bayern (per CNN). "
It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6860 on: March 18, 2017, 01:05:39 pm »
No, I'm suggesting wages + debt to turnover, which is what you did there, is an utterly pointless financial comparison to make.

Wages to turnover is perfectly fine, but it has nothing to do with the overall debt figure, so is not relevant here do please don't do one of your legendary swerves to that subject.

I didn't add them together I just put the figures out there Craig.

Firstly we have turnover of £301.8m out of that we have to repay around £20-25m a season to FSG for the stand plus we have to either service the bank debt or repay it.

Secondly we have a pretty horrific wages to turnover ratio.

Those aren't good figures are they Craig ?
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Offline liverpool185

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6861 on: March 18, 2017, 01:05:59 pm »
Can we stop lowering the bar to H&G levels and then accepting anything better than that. Surely we should all be striving for LFC to be the best it possibly can be whether that is the owners, the managers, the fans or the players.

Multiple sponsorship deals look at how many they have brought in.. a new stand, looking to increase the kop by a few hundred seats, just hired a world class manager, multiple 20m+ signings, the contracts we are offering to players is getting bigger and bigger. even klopp has said multiple times they are doing great things for the club.

What more do you exactly want from owners?! Yes they have made plenty of mistakes when they first took over the club but for me it's looks like they are getting their act together, about time.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6862 on: March 18, 2017, 01:09:42 pm »
But what's the endgame of that? Protests? Not that I mind protesting something worthwhile, but this thread hasn't altered in months... lots of talk with no result IMO

Holding them to account mate and scrutinising what they do. They are very sensitive to the fans reactions so why not push them to be better owners.
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Offline ToneLa

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6863 on: March 18, 2017, 01:14:33 pm »
Holding them to account mate and scrutinising what they do. They are very sensitive to the fans reactions so why not push them to be better owners.

Fair dos. My own criteria is basically "no artificial limits on the football side".

 I have seen the odd encouraging sign, EG. the Echo Q&A the other day with James Peace

"@JoeRimmer88 Are FSG aware of the general anger towards them due to our lack of success in the transfer market for last six years?"

Quote
“Senior FSG officials are on social media so of course they see the criticism and the dissent aimed in their direction by a section of the club’s fans,” James Pearce told the Echo’s Q&A session today.

“The fact that Liverpool have only won one League Cup and had one top four finish during their tenure so far is rightly a source of great frustration.

“This is a huge summer for FSG. Klopp has said Liverpool can compete at the top end of the market and land the targets he wants. The owners need to prove that’s the case with a show of real ambition.”


Now... you could say that isn't FSG answering it, and I think we as a fanbase get across many points, it's easy to condemn such talk as empty, and I'm sure many of us are very intent on seeing things happen this summer.

FSG not being deaf to us is a good thing, and I think we are united in a lot of areas (Annie Rd, backing Klopp).
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 01:16:16 pm by ToneLa »

Offline liverpool185

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6864 on: March 18, 2017, 01:16:22 pm »
Holding them to account mate and scrutinising what they do. They are very sensitive to the fans reactions so why not push them to be better owners.

So when we signed no one in January and all the fans were pissed, we should of protested and called them every name under in the sun in the stands?

Every little thing they do some fans don't agree with we should run them out of town? Next set of owners come in we treat them the same way as FSG and go for the kill everytime someone disagree's with something?

I think unless we suddenly get some billionaire owners like city or chelsea you will never be happy.
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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6865 on: March 18, 2017, 01:17:01 pm »
I didn't add them together I just put the figures out there Craig.

Firstly we have turnover of £301.8m out of that we have to repay around £20-25m a season to FSG for the stand plus we have to either service the bank debt or repay it.

The Main stand covers it's own cost, it does not impact us. The revolving credit facilities costs are extremely low.


Quote
Secondly we have a pretty horrific wages to turnover ratio.

Those aren't good figures are they Craig ?

We raised the ratio knowing it would drop the following year with guaranteed revenue increases from the new TV deal and Main Stand income.

It's not an issue.

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6866 on: March 18, 2017, 01:22:23 pm »
Plus you've been calling for them to raise that ratio for a while now, so not sure why you're now using it as a stick to beat them with.

It's almost, almost, like they can't win with you no matter what they do.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6867 on: March 18, 2017, 01:22:26 pm »
Multiple sponsorship deals look at how many they have brought in..

Look at the relative commercial growth of us and our rivals.








a new stand, looking to increase the kop by a few hundred seats,

Again look at our rivals they all have bigger Stadiums or have plans in place to build bigger Stadiums. No surprise there though look at Fenway Park. The Red Sox the second biggest name in Baseball has the ballpark with the 24th largest capacity.



just hired a world class manager, multiple 20m+ signings, the contracts we are offering to players is getting bigger and bigger. even klopp has said multiple times they are doing great things for the club.

What more do you exactly want from owners?! Yes they have made plenty of mistakes when they first took over the club but for me it's looks like they are getting their act together, about time.

All that is exactly the bare minimum for the top Clubs why are you so happy about it ?
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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6868 on: March 18, 2017, 01:26:02 pm »
Look at the relative commercial growth of us and our rivals.

They have all signed new main sponsor and kit manufacturer deals during that time though, where as we have not, so it's a bit unfair to compare that time period. Compare after we renew our deals in 18 months or so time and it'll show a much more realistic picture.


Quote
Again look at our rivals they all have bigger Stadiums or have plans in place to build bigger Stadiums. No surprise there though look at Fenway Park. The Red Sox the second biggest name in Baseball has the ballpark with the 24th largest capacity.

Spurs also plan to have £750m+ to repay. United built up their ground like we are doing. Arsenal benefited from selling off property at London prices and being able to charge London ticket prices.

You know all this though.

Plus you're happy to accept our rivals plans, yet ignore our own continued expansion plans which could see us having the second largest ground in the UK.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6869 on: March 18, 2017, 01:28:33 pm »
Plus you've been calling for them to raise that ratio for a while now, so not sure why you're now using it as a stick to beat them with.

It's almost, almost, like they can't win with you no matter what they do.

The idea is you raise the wage bill to accommodate better players who make you more successful. Have FSG done that ?

Have they fuck they have just given the same players huge wage increases. You haven't got us in the CL or won anything but here is another 50 to 75 grand a week.
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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6870 on: March 18, 2017, 01:30:19 pm »
The idea is you raise the wage bill to accommodate better players who make you more successful. Have FSG done that ?

Have they fuck they have just given the same players huge wage increases. You haven't got us in the CL or won anything but here is another 50 to 75 grand a week.

If we gain CL this season then you could argue that it has been achieved.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6871 on: March 18, 2017, 02:02:49 pm »
If we gain CL this season then you could argue that it has been achieved.

The £201.8m wage bill is for a season when we didn't make the CL though Craig.
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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6872 on: March 18, 2017, 02:05:15 pm »
The £201.8m wage bill is for a season when we didn't make the CL though Craig.

It's for part of that year (contract increases during the season, Klopp, etc) and continues into this season. It's also no doubt reflects participation/bonus payments for the runs to the Europa final and League Cup final.

Again, if we gain top 4 with these players given those contracts then we surely it has to be seen as a success. Unless you want to shift the goal posts.

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6873 on: March 18, 2017, 02:19:32 pm »
It's for part of that year (contract increases during the season, Klopp, etc) and continues into this season. It's also no doubt reflects participation/bonus payments for the runs to the Europa final and League Cup final.

Again, if we gain top 4 with these players given those contracts then we surely it has to be seen as a success. Unless you want to shift the goal posts.

How can accounts that are for the financial year that ended on the 31st of May 2016 include a season that didn't start until August 2016. There can be notes about post balance sheet events but they are not included in the actual accounts for that year surely.

We finished 8th mate with that wage bill.
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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6874 on: March 18, 2017, 02:38:14 pm »
When JWH and co. bought us they appeared to have a cautious attitude to risk. Remembering those days, we fans probably had same view.  The money moving around in the game in those days was at a different level.  FSG had advisers, the "Arsenal" model, moneyball etc. on their minds, they knew baseball and pretty much nothing about Soccerball.  They also had Ayre, Damian etc. at the helm which is another story in itself. They took a pasting for the Andy Carroll saga etc. etc.

They made a load of mistakes, they had an attitude to risk which maybe was correct (or a little safe)for the time, they tried Brendan and the committee etc. and it was up and down, more stable financially, build the main stand, grow the business side

Now the TV money comes in, their asset is worth more, they know more about the business model and the game, Ayre gone, Klopp in, revenue up.

What's interesting now is how much did they learn? Is the climate better to invest? is their attitude to risk moving? Will they put their hands deeper into their pockets? Will we compete at a higher financial/quality level on the pitch? 

It's hard to really remember where we were after H&G etc. but for sure it was a crisis for us, John Henry and Werner etc. had to figure that all out. They (maybe) need less advisers these days and make less mistakes.

It's still not clear what their intentions are, mixed messages at best, but surely they are able now to move on?  No real major reason to stay so risk averse.  business is good,  can argue about the books, but it moved in the right direction on the business side and financially overall.

FSG need to shift gears to invest with confidence in the quality of the team and ARE. Their investment is in great shape.  It will grow, no big signs otherwise. The quality of the squad and stadium needs to catch up now.

apologies if that's all covered before on this thread. 

To paraphrase:  "Believe", as someone once said.

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6875 on: March 18, 2017, 03:54:34 pm »
How can accounts that are for the financial year that ended on the 31st of May 2016 include a season that didn't start until August 2016. There can be notes about post balance sheet events but they are not included in the actual accounts for that year surely.

We finished 8th mate with that wage bill.

Because the increases came part way through the season (in most cases).

You can't just take the season in isolation and pretend it doesn't run into the next.

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6876 on: March 18, 2017, 03:54:50 pm »
It's Smoth, Al, and Pisto's job to hold FSG's feet to the fire.

I'm alright with that.

But it's still bitching, moaning and non support for a decent effort.
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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6877 on: March 18, 2017, 04:04:22 pm »
Because the increases came part way through the season (in most cases).

You can't just take the season in isolation and pretend it doesn't run into the next.

The wages were for that season Craig. When we finished 8th whilst spending £201.8m on wages.

The wages for this season will be reflected in this season's accounts.
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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6878 on: March 18, 2017, 04:07:20 pm »
The wages were for that season Craig. When we finished 8th whilst spending £201.8m on wages.

The wages for this season will be reflected in this season's accounts.

Ok Al. I see where you want to take this.

If you're unable to acknowledge that a good chunk of those increases came during the season and therefore will also be reflected in this seasons performance then not much left to discuss here.

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Re: FSG (*)
« Reply #6879 on: March 18, 2017, 05:03:59 pm »
Ok Al. I see where you want to take this.

If you're unable to acknowledge that a good chunk of those increases came during the season and therefore will also be reflected in this seasons performance then not much left to discuss here.

What are you talking about mate. We finished 8th with a £200m+ wage bill.

You tried to state that the last accounts included part of this season which is absolute tosh.
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