Topic: FSG (*)

[CraigDS]

Craig couldn't they just widen a few roads and install park and ride

Would take more than that, talk of the goods train line being opened but would be a massive cost which the council/Mersey rail would have to fund in the most part. It therefore goes beyond an issue on if 19 home games a season requires it.

[AnthonySmith]

Unfortunately my crystal ball is on the blink tonight so can't see what may happen between now and summer 2016 when construction could start (after Main stand).

I did offer it as one of a few possible reasons like.

Aye, could job I'm not employed to do so.

bit touchy Craig, whoever said you're employed by them to troll the Internet?

[voodoo ray]

Let's have a bit of ambition.

[Gnurglan]

On the talk about geography and where people are from.

Some things are very much local. People need to have a chance to go to the games. Kids need to be given a chance too see the team. Some things, like how the club affects the people in the area, definitely local.

Personally, I'd love it if I could travel and turn up and pay at the gate. I'd love cheaper tickets. I don't want to pay £150 for a ticket through some travel agent. Which is the way it works. And that's for a game vs say WBA. Meaning this is the regular fee, not premium. It's obviously a business and tickets must be secured through touts. I could fly, return, for less. I paid less for a CL Final ticket (official source) and less for a World Cup game ticket. Makes me reluctant to go. Because it's expensive, but also because I'm probably paying some season ticket holder who makes a good living off the club. Doesn't feel right. Point being all fans, local and travelling, are being priced out. The 'good' thing with this, is we have a problem in common. It's not local vs OOT. Lower prices and better availability benefits everyone.

When it comes to FSG, I am and have always been suspicious as I don't believe in distant owners. That said, they are getting things done. Like I have said before here, they have improved our finances. They have made funds available for the manager. They are expanding the stadium. I don't think it's fair to say they are some kind of evil businessmen who are trying to run things on a shoestring budget. Which is along the lines of what I read. They are going ahead with the stadium. Moores didn't. G&H didn't. I find it difficult to fault FSG for what they do. Things can always improve, but now we are moving, not just talking. One step at a time.

Our problem is not so much FSG. They are not holding us back. What's problematic is our transfers.

[BigRedOne]

Jesus...

No my friend although I strive to be a visionary I am yet to become a prophet.

[Monkee]

pure mathematics, profits and loss. Our wage bill is £140m a year, pretty much at the limit for us to be able to pass FFP. If wages aren't structured then players become unhappy as player x is on way more etc. The only way to increase our wage bill is to increase turnover and profits

So the answer is to fleece 53k constantly or fleece 75k a bit less and actually have a realistic capacity?  Don't forget you'd have to get to 65 k just to clear the fucking seasie waiting list.

[CHOPPER]

Let's have a bit of ambition.

We want to win money as much as the next club dagnamit!

You sound like you think we would want to avoid making money or something, while others teams rake it in for all these years..............

[CHOPPER]

No my friend although I strive to be a visionary I am yet to become a prophet.

Just like Liverpool Football Club

[voodoo ray]

they are building a bigger ground, but you need a successful team as well. That's dependent on having players like Coutinho, Sterling, Can, Markovic, Moreno etc becoming top players. To do that you invest in a coach who is capable of making them better and realise their potential.

Another part of the new stand is the massive increase in corporate hospitality revenue it will bring. The extra seats are small change compared to that.

Fuck the team.

There, I said it. Fuck. The. Team.

It's not like we've been exactly dripping with trophies the past few years as it is. With the exception of last season's anomaly I'm sure we could hover around the fairly average league positions we've had the past few years and build a new ground. The attendances would be just fine. Sunderland have pulled in 43k on average this season and they're shit.

[Igor Zidane]

they are building a bigger ground, but you need a successful team as well. That's dependent on having players like Coutinho, Sterling, Can, Markovic, Moreno etc becoming top players. To do that you invest in a coach who is capable of making them better and realise their potential.

Then when they come to you to negotiate a new contract , you flog them for shed loads of dosh instead and buy some more potential . Hmmm Not gonna work that is it . Why not show a bit of ambition and build a new £70,000 seater stadium , squeeze the life out of the corporates whilst giving a chance for the local young supporters to see a game for a few quid .Sell your liverworld shit to the visiting masses , and pay competitive wages to keep are best players , also I reckon with the dosh rolling in we can maybe buy one or two established worldies . Yer never know . 

[decky]

So the answer is to fleece 53k constantly or fleece 75k a bit less and actually have a realistic capacity?  Don't forget you'd have to get to 65 k just to clear the fucking seasie waiting list.

A lot of people on that list won't and haven't taken up the tickets when they've been offered them. I'm around 4000 on it now, was 8000 a couple of years ago. They've done a huge amount of research on the ideal capacity based on a lot thing things no one here would even think of. For them they want as big a stadium as possible but they have to measure it against how much it costs and how regularly it will be full. The optimum figure is around 60k and they'll get to that as quick as they can, mainly agin due to the corporate hospitality revenue it will generate

[Monkee]

Of course several on here have said it, including you with your "americans can fuck off to baseball and weak beer" comment. Honestly, everyone antagonizing FSG in this thread has talked shit about the foreign fan/support who is guilty of supporting LFC and spending their hard earned money doing it. (And who, again, Liverpool RELY on to be at all competitive and without them would be no better off in money/competitive terms than most of the leagues mid and lower table, especially with the local fans demanding no corporate seats, no foreigners, tickets for £10 or less, and huge net spends every summer on new talent).

Buried in all the vile seems to be just one concern and it's ticket prices. They're expensive for every major sport in all parts of the world. Germany has safe standing so I'm not sure how fair it is to compare their cheapest tickets. The solution to this isn't taking FSG to the sword, or making the rich players pay for your seats, or blaming foreigners who spend a lot of money in your LOCAL economy and merchandise from afar. League-wide action has to be taken - get safe standing seems to be the most obvious solution to all the concerns here. So instead of attacking the world fanbase of your club, why not put your energy into something like that?

Why not support a team you actually have a connection with?

[voodoo ray]

What a load of shite, I've been Anfield hundreds of times have seen Liverpool win the league and European Cup in the flesh so don't pull that crap on me.

What statistics and figures do you have to show me me you can accurately measure the demand for tickets at Anfield? How many on the list still want the ticket, how many can afford it, how many are dead, how many don't live in the country anymore? Tell all genius

Regardless as to what figures you pull out, it's irrelevant. It's about your philosophy on the amount of people you get through the door.

The owners want demand to outstrip supply, they want people to not get in so they can charge higher prices. The so called "sweet spot"

Personally I want the total opposite.

[Monkee]

What a load of shite, I've been Anfield hundreds of times have seen Liverpool win the league and European Cup in the flesh so don't pull that crap on me.

What statistics and figures do you have to show me me you can accurately measure the demand for tickets at Anfield? How many on the list still want the ticket, how many can afford it, how many are dead, how many don't live in the country anymore? Tell all genius

There's blood in the water ERE.

Well done on gegging in.  However many times you've done it.

[Retro Red]

Easy. We have the funds we have. We shouldn't jeopardize our finances.
How could we do things differently? I'll say it for the xth time. Get rid of players who don't have a real role. Don't send them on loan. Sell. Reduce the size of the squad. Give more Academy players roles. This will allow us to pay higher wages to our key players.

But the problem here is not that FSG are keeping a tight budget. The real issue is we are wasting money left, right and center.

Agree 100%.

That's why I used the term self imposed salary cap in the TAW piece.

For the record, I think Liverpool spend enough on both transfers and wages to have a team that can challenge in the top four and, when the stars align, have a good go at the major honours. It's how the money is spent. Under FSG we follow a similar model to what they employ in their core business, the club spreads its risk. Instead of going bollocks out on three quality players and concentrating the risk, they spread it over seven, eight or nine players and we end up with maybe two alright ones, a few duds and a very occasional world beater.

That really is what underpins the article. The over cautious, almost timid approach to everything in a football sense is affecting every level of the club.

Lose one million off the gate revenue after landing a bumper tv deal, we can't do that. Pay two or three top players the going rate for top players and cut out the hedging on potential or potential bargains, no way. Take a punt on the 100,000+ registered members actually wanting to go to the match, or more than 25,000 of the half million locals, or any of the tourists or business visitors, no siree that's our ROI equation compromised.

So, all the talk of wanting a sugar daddy, wanting FSG to spend their own money or wanting the club to go into unsustainable debt is bollocks. It's about being bold in the use of the not insignificant resources that the club has at its disposal.

[CHOPPER]

The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That's how I see football, that's how I see life.

[istvan kozma]

Fuck the team.

There, I said it. Fuck. The. Team.

It's not like we've been exactly dripping with trophies the past few years as it is. With the exception of last season's anomaly I'm sure we could hover around the fairly average league positions we've had the past few years and build a new ground. The attendances would be just fine. Sunderland have pulled in 43k on average this season and they're shit.

Yeah, lets "fuck the team" so we can have a shinny new stadium to be proud of

[Monkee]

Manchester I have zero association with the city of Liverpool, but my grandad was born in Anfield, supported us all his life and brought me up to do the same.. You wouldn't know the half of what people not from Liverpool go through to support our team, lets just say every single time I wore my crown paints kit in PE I got 10 bell of shit kicked out of me being the only red in my class.. We are a family, built on the foundation of working men watching us years ago, but we aren't in those days any longer, whilst we must respect what brought us here and the traditions it set.. We are now a global fanbase, and your location has no relevance to supporting the team and how much your opinion matters, they all do.

The location has every relevance if those most closely located can't fucking get in thanks to Graham Geg in and Tarquinius Tout Feeder.

[rushandapush]

I'm not gonna blame cock sucking yanks for losing against Man u and arse. Lose 2 games and everybody poos their pants. Modern day football fans? Misinformed.

[Monkee]

So you want to leave Anfield and build a bowl in Stanley Park then? It'll cost twice as much for another 10k seats which will hardly reduce ticket prices if it happens, people who can't go now still won't be able to. Look at Arsenal and the prices there - it's ridiculous.

I agree that Anfield should be more accessible to locals and FSG should price it accordingly so that the kids can go, but the club can't increase their revenue and compete and bring down ticket prices at the same time, not with player wages so high.

As for banishing people from the city boundaries forever, would that include all the foreign players idolised by the Kop over the years who have happily taken the massive wages which in turn have put up ticket prices and made the game unaccessible for those you mention?

The last TV deal was over 5 Billion.

They could let us all in for free next season and not have it affect their bottom line.

[voodoo ray]

Yeah, lets "fuck the team" so we can have a shinny new stadium to be proud of

I'm not sure building it in the shape of a shin pad would be the best idea. It's bold though.

and if you think the team's more important than our ground then..........well alright.

[CHOPPER]

Nobhead

[istvan kozma]

I'm not sure building it in the shape of a shin pad would be the best idea. It's bold though.

and if you think the team's more important than our ground then..........well alright.

[voodoo ray]

The fuck is so difficult to grasp?

[BrianL]

@GregCharrua:
So are you saying "we're here now so deal with it"?

I honestly fear it might get nasty in future around Anfield for you tourists if that's your attitude.

[Samie]

This is a wind up right? 

[decky]

I've been to plenty games fella, over a 20 year period.  But you'll probably hold that against me too, for taking a ticket that should have gone to a local, so I don't think I can win with you really.

I know plenty of locals who are mates of mine who can't be arsed going to the games and they can afford it too. This great football club on their doorstep and it's too much hassle to queue at the ticket office, online or on the phone. They then complain they can't get a ticket when Real Madrid come to town. It doesn't matter where you're from, some will make the effort and some won't. Those who do (and can afford it) get the tickets. I don't think some locals understand the sacrifices people from outside make to go to Anfield, and on a regular basis. It's basically similar to the fans who go to the aways all the time, in terms of time, effort and cost.

[Monkee]

All right then. So what you really want is a time machine not real solutions. Good luck.

Here's a solution.  Keep your fucking credit card in your pocket.  Don't feed the touting machine.  Don't turn up.  Watch it on a cable affiliate of your choice.
Whilst there is one kid from Liverpool who can't get into that ground then gegs have no place.  None whatsoever.

Ironically the solution would be to up the capacity to 75k.

[GregCharrua]

So are you saying "we're here now so deal with it"?

I honestly fear it might get nasty in future around Anfield for you tourists if that's your attitude.

No im saying the entire world of sport has changed and attacking foreigners or banning them wont create an anfield utopia.

[elpistolero7]

Seriously pleasant, politically correct discussion going on in here.

Its rubbish that belongs in a different century, grow up.

[Retro Red]

Everton have been looking for a suitable site in the city for 20 years and have been unable to find one.  Sorry, they did find one in Kirkby and the supporters wouldn't accept it as it was outside the city proper.

3 years ago the vast majority of people didn't even want to move across the road to Stanley Park if it could at all be avoided, but now people are talking about moving to a completely new site in another part of the city (and it would probably have to be the outskirts if it was 70k plus).  I don't get it.

Now then Corky, you better not be my cousin from Cork!

What don't you get?

That tens of thousands of scousers have pretty much given up on watching their local football team and the new banqueting and conference facility won't do jack shit to help the situation?

As for sites for stadia, north Liverpool has probably the biggest expanse of derelict inner city land in the country and a few other grot spots that could do with a big multi national business on them.

In a meeting I had with probably the city's biggest landowner/developer, regarding another footballing proposition, the Development director made the point that Everton couldn't pay for a stadium without a big associated enabling development and Liverpool simply wanted everything for nothing. There are sites, including the gargantuan footprint assembled in L4 that's near enough big enough to accommodate the Millennium Stadium, there just isn't the will.

[Graham Smith]

See Craig, you've had a good run on all things Anfield. But I'm going to pit my Urban Regeneration Masters (dissertation subject: Anfield), and my inside knowledge of the regeneration process, up against your International Business and admirable backing for the club's role in recent years.

The club has contributed nothing to L4, zilch. With a 45,000 capacity the place has run down to the point that a walk down Oakfield Rd and Walton Breck Rd last night at 11pm saw three very sparsely populated pubs in the Sandon, The Park and the Solly. The rest had the shutters down, closed on non-match days. Same with most of the chippies. The place was deserted, a proper ghost town like it is on every other non-match day, on one of Liverpool's busiest nights of the year to boot. This isn't regeneration or the ground benefiting an area.

Now, Liverpool adds 8,000 seats and suddenly the local economy perks up? Nah, the stand is being developed to draw people in to spend inside it, in the corporate facilities and in the bigger concourse areas. Of those 8,000 extra people, the intention is that hardly any will spend a cent in L4. Contrast that to how Cardiff's Millennium Stadium works for the surrounding area of Cardiff. A completely different mindset was at play there, it was about using resources to maximise the number of people who could get in and letting the surrounding area provide the facilities. Don't get me wrong, drawing the people and the spend into the ground is good for Liverpool FC, but it's complete bollocks to say there's any benefit to the local area from either the stadium as is or the stadium as will be.

There is a very compelling regeneration argument for getting the ground out of L4 all together and letting the area get on as a place where people live and support a decent little district centre. A bit like most of the places where the people who use the ground live.

In the words of the CEO of Your Housing Group, who are putting £millions into the non-profit making bit of making the area habitable again, "Anfield is good at making money for Liverpool but not at making money for Anfield.
 

C'mon Craig, theres a great debate to be had here - Retro has asked, so have I, Jay McKenna will get onboard too - let's do a radio show with four or five of us chewing the fat over these issues.

Get a couple of OOTs on the phone/Skype to contribute.

Better than this interrupted posting nonsense.

Up for it? Or not?

[TheFlyingScouseman]

It's been mentioned but a good way of retaining the Anfield traditions is not by making it pure Scouse, but by making it harder to get tickets. Open the ticket office on the day for league games, etc. All that's been discussed basically. All this would certainly get more locals to the game, and only the real fans from outside the City, because what whopper's gonna wait hours on end on the phone for tickets?

Right now it's far too easy for ANYONE to get tickets, the most important thing is getting REAL fans to the game, people who understand the traditions, whether there from Liverpool or not.... *cough* AnthonySmith *cough cough*

[istvan kozma]

The fuck is so difficult to grasp?

The idea that the ground is more important than the team, please explain.

[Agent99]

Who's up for this?

Nobody. Monkee might be but I'm pretty sure you are him.

[BrianL]

No im saying the entire world of sport has changed and attacking foreigners or banning them wont create an anfield utopia.

Nobody's expecting utopia, stop straw manning. We just want our kids to be able to watch our team.

[voodoo ray]

I know plenty of locals who are mates of mine who can't be arsed going to the games and they can afford it too. This great football club on their doorstep and it's too much hassle to queue at the ticket office, online or on the phone. They then complain they can't get a ticket when Real Madrid come to town. It doesn't matter where you're from, some will make the effort and some won't. Those who do (and can afford it) get the tickets. I don't think some locals understand the sacrifices people from outside make to go to Anfield, and on a regular basis. It's basically similar to the fans who go to the aways all the time, in terms of time, effort and cost.

Now imagine we had a big enough ground where you didn't have to go through all that effort? Where you could just decide you wanted to go and get a ticket the day before, or rock up to the ground on the day and get one? Better, no?

[istvan kozma]

I didn't realise Nigel was a red

You're not the only who had that thought.

[Trousers]

I was talking about the world fan base contribution to the club, keeping it relevant and competitive in the age of oil money.

I just dont understand the hatred of foreigners and fellow fans. Its such a shit attotude to have. What have us non locals done to to be so hated?

You're not hated but when you see foreign and none local supporters wearing half n' half Liverpool/Chelsea/Everton/Utd scarves and a lot of them treating the place like a stag do then all you can do is shake your head and think you are somewhat clueless.
Anfield & Kirkdale are the two poorest constituencies in the entire country yet people flock to Anfield daily and L4 sees none of the benefit. So not only have the local community been priced out of the match they see zero benefit to the local community as well.

It's understandable that people are somewhat resentful that their local club has essentially been stolen from them.

[Monkee]

Nobody. Monkee might be but I'm pretty sure you are him.

Nope.  Try again Serpico.