Topic: The Attack

[PhaseOfPlay]

Why is that? Just not back to being as sharp as he was?

Not sure. But it's very basic movement, with no thought - check to the ball, take, lay off, run back to where you were in a straight line. Very easy to defend.

[spider-neil]

He could also drag defenders away with his movement, but his movement is terrible recently.

Drag defenders away from whom? We want Daniel to play on the shoulder of the defenders.

[spider-neil]

Not sure. But it's very basic movement, with no thought - check to the ball, take, lay off, run back to where you were in a straight line. Very easy to defend.

I don't have a problem with Daniel's movement, if he starts buzzing around we'll have zero presence near the opposition area.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I don't have a problem with Daniel's movement, if he starts buzzing around we'll have zero presence near the opposition area.

Drag defenders away from whom? We want Daniel to play on the shoulder of the defenders.

A fundamental misunderstanding of mobility there. Where do players want to move to?

[spider-neil]

A fundamental misunderstanding of mobility there. Where do players want to move to?

Bottom line (for me) I think players should be pushing up to support him. Too often now Daniel is facing up against several defenders, a stark contrast from last season where he only need to beat a player to be in on goal. Daniel had Suarez dragging away defenders and no one is doing that for him this season.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Bottom line (for me) I think players should be pushing up to support him. Too often now Daniel is facing up against several defenders, a stark contrast from last season where he only need to beat a player to be in on goal. Daniel had Suarez dragging away defenders and no one is doing that for him this season.

Again, though, he could be dragging defenders away for himself. But not with the movements he is doing. We have 6 midfielders, he doesn't need to be checking back for the ball. So his movement is poor, because he chooses the wrong movement.

[spider-neil]

Again, though, he could be dragging defenders away for himself. But not with the movements he is doing. We have 6 midfielders, he doesn't need to be checking back for the ball. So his movement is poor, because he chooses the wrong movement.

So you are basically asking him to reinvent himself because he wasn't doing that last season.
I don't think it is a big deal to ask the two sat behind him to push further up the pitch.

[PhaseOfPlay]

So you are basically asking him to reinvent himself because he wasn't doing that last season.

He doesn't need to reinvent himself at all. What I'm talking about is fundamental mobility, the kind that's taught to 12 year olds all over the world. And it IS mobility he was doing last season. But you don't seem to know what that movement is, so you don't see a problem. But there is a problem.

[swordfishtrombone]

Bottom line (for me) I think players should be pushing up to support him. Too often now Daniel is facing up against several defenders, a stark contrast from last season where he only need to beat a player to be in on goal. Daniel had Suarez dragging away defenders and no one is doing that for him this season.

Doesn't it work both ways though? Daniel's movement isn't creating space for our midfielders to move into - he's dropping back and taking up space they would rather press into. If his movement creates space for the midfielders to move into, then their movement into that area should in turn create space for Dan to attack.

[spider-neil]

He doesn't need to reinvent himself at all. What I'm talking about is fundamental mobility, the kind that's taught to 12 year olds all over the world. And it IS mobility he was doing last season. But you don't seem to know what that movement is, so you don't see a problem. But there is a problem.

I know what movement is in regards to making space for yourself inside the box and Sturridge is doing that (FA cup goal). But you don't seem to have a problem with Sturridge fending off several defenders on his own with his support sitting 20 yards off him.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I know what movement is in regards to making space for yourself inside the box and Sturridge is doing that (FA cup goal). But you don't seem to have a problem with Sturridge fending off several defenders on his own with his support sitting 20 yards off him.

Again, I'll ask - where do players want to move to?

[spider-neil]

I do think Brendan will go with Sterling up front with Lallana and Coutinho and have then relentless press Manu's defenders. I don't think Sturridge currently has the energy to do that.

[spider-neil]

Again, I'll ask - where do players want to move to?

I actually don't get your question?

[SerbianScouser]

Doesn't it work both ways though? Daniel's movement isn't creating space for our midfielders to move into - he's dropping back and taking up space they would rather press into. If his movement creates space for the midfielders to move into, then their movement into that area should in turn create space for Dan to attack.

Sturridge can make all the space in the world the profile of the players Coutinho and Lallana are will never take advantage of it. For the goal Hendo was making the run while being behind Coutinho initially. It`s about the profile of the players and their desire to get on the end of things and attack spaces vacated by Sturridge. You`ll never get that from Lallana and Coutinho.

Thing about Lallana is that this is now 4th game he played between the lines with no goals or assists to show for it all the while we are sacrificing Sterling by shunting him out on the wing where`s he isolated all in order to play Lallana into some form and it`s a bit of dilemma now can we afford to do so as Sterling is naturally much more likely to make late runs into the box towards the near post which creates space for Sturridge in the box.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I actually don't get your question?

It's a simple question. A player doesn't have the ball, his team is in possession, he wants to receive it - where should he be moving?

[spider-neil]

Sturridge can make all the space in the world the profile of the players Coutinho and Lallana are will never take advantage of it. For the goal Hendo was making the run while being behind Coutinho initially. It`s about the profile of the players and their desire to get on the end of things and attack spaces vacated by Sturridge. You`ll never get that from Lallana and Coutinho.

Thing about Lallana is that this is now 4th game he played between the lines with no goals or assists to show for it all the while we are sacrificing Sterling by shunting him out on the wing where`s he isolated all in order to play Lallana into some form and it`s a bit of dilemma now can we afford to do so as Sterling is naturally much more likely to make late runs into the box towards the near post which creates space for Sturridge in the box.

Lallana just sitting near to Daniel would help but he drops way too drop to act as a decoy for Daniel or even a passing option.

[SerbianScouser]

where should he be moving?

Is that a trick question?

[spider-neil]

It's a simple question. A player doesn't have the ball, his team is in possession, he wants to receive it - where should he be moving?

Into space? The problem is the defenders can move with him as he is the only threat anywhere near their goal.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Is that a trick question?

It's a question for Spider-Neil. I know you know the answer.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Into space? The problem is the defenders can move with him as he is the only threat anywhere near their goal.

Right - so you know the basic mechanics of mobility.

So next question - If the attacker is double-teamed, and he checks to the ball, what spaces are created?

[spider-neil]

Right - so you know the basic mechanics of mobility.

So next question - If the attacker is double-teamed, and he checks to the ball, what spaces are created?

Look, I see where you're going with this but as the main striker I'd expect the likes of Lallana to act as a decoy for Daniel. As I said, last season Daniel had attackers (well, Luis) closer to him so had to deal less defenders. This season he is being double team and I don't know how different runs are going to shake them off to earn a yard of space. I think pushing players up the pitch is going to be far easier and effective then asking a striker to change his movement.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Look, I see where you're going with this but as the main striker I'd expect the likes of Lallana to act as a decoy for Daniel. As I said, last season Daniel had attackers (well, Luis) closer to him so had to deal less defenders. This season he is being double team and I don't know how different runs are going to shake them off to earn a yard of space. I think pushing players up the pitch is going to be far easier and effective then asking a striker to change his movement.

Where am I going with it?

[Robinred]

Sturridge can make all the space in the world the profile of the players Coutinho and Lallana are will never take advantage of it. For the goal Hendo was making the run while being behind Coutinho initially. It`s about the profile of the players and their desire to get on the end of things and attack spaces vacated by Sturridge. You`ll never get that from Lallana and Coutinho.

Thing about Lallana is that this is now 4th game he played between the lines with no goals or assists to show for it all the while we are sacrificing Sterling by shunting him out on the wing where`s he isolated all in order to play Lallana into some form and it`s a bit of dilemma now can we afford to do so as Sterling is naturally much more likely to make late runs into the box towards the near post which creates space for Sturridge in the box.

I don't agree entirely, but I agree with your assessment of Lallana and Coutinho. You rarely if ever see them running "beyond" the last defender. Sterling does make those runs. The pity is that Lallana is a much more assured finisher than Sterling.

Lallana is not best suited to the WB role - it's striking how much better Ibe has looked, albeit from a small sample size for both.

[spider-neil]

Where am I going with it?

Okay, I'll take stab. You are saying Sturridge should move into space to receive the ball, giving him that extra yard to do 'something'. Correct?
I'm saying that space will naturally be created by his team mates if they push up and occupy defenders.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Okay, I'll take stab. You are saying Sturridge should move into space to receive the ball, giving him that extra yard to do 'something'. Correct?
I'm saying that space will naturally be created by his team mates push up and occupy defenders.

Nope. I'm saying he is making the wrong movements into space, and he is neglecting a movement he did quite a lot of last season. I'm saying that his movement into midfield is predictable and low-reward, and he is easy to defend. So before we talk about the two attacking mids running beyond him, we have to talk about the kind of movement he is actually making, versus the kind of movement he isn't making. I'm not arguing that he isn't isolated at times, he clearly is. But his most frequent movement is a 10-20 yard drop into midfield. That doesn't help anyone. It doesn't create usable space for the attacking mids, because the opposition central defenders just pass him off to their defensive mids to deal with. And he doesn't create usable space for himself, because he is too far away from goal. As I said already, the pattern is drop into midfield, get the ball, lay it off, and then run straight back up into the double team. There is no reason for the attacking mids to run beyond him when he does that, because no space is created. So what other move could he be doing, that Suarez did consistently, that would create usable space?

[spider-neil]

Nope. I'm saying he is making the wrong movements into space, and he is neglecting a movement he did quite a lot of last season. I'm saying that his movement into midfield is predictable and low-reward, and he is easy to defend. So before we talk about the two attacking mids running beyond him, we have to talk about the kind of movement he is actually making, versus the kind of movement he isn't making. I'm not arguing that he isn't isolated at times, he clearly is. But his most frequent movement is a 10-20 yard drop into midfield. That doesn't help anyone. It doesn't create usable space for the attacking mids, because the opposition central defenders just pass him off to their defensive mids to deal with. And he doesn't create usable space for himself, because he is too far away from goal. As I said already, the pattern is drop into midfield, get the ball, lay it off, and then run straight back up into the double team. There is no reason for the attacking mids to run beyond him when he does that, because no space is created. So what other move could he be doing, that Suarez did consistently, that would create usable space?

I think the thing that happened a lot last season is the midfield would win the ball high up the pitch in one move and then instantly play Daniel (who had made a run in and behind the defence) in on goal in the next move. That pretty much doesn't happen anymore. His attacking partners are too deep and I think there is now too much attention given to Daniel (who is isolated).

I think you are making good points but I think moving the attackers closer to him would reap more dividends. If the attacking options pushed up the pitch wouldn't that stop Daniel dropping too deep (who almost certainly is dropping to become involved in build up play)?

[SerbianScouser]

There is no reason for the attacking mids to run beyond him when he does that, because no space is created. So what other move could he be doing, that Suarez did consistently, that would create usable space?

But, Pop didn`t he create space for the goal by dropping deep and Henderson running in behind him? Didn`t Messi as a false 9 create space for Pedro and Villa by dropping deep and letting them attack the vacated space?

[fowlermagic]

Think we are missing Ibe big time as he has that urge to get up and support the attack chiefly out wide thus spreading the wall of defense, who last night for a long time only had Sturridge to worry about. Lallana is still way off the pace in terms of the finished article for us. He looks a tremendous player, a fellow that could and should be giving you 10 league goals / similar assists and ....he is not even close. If he was in our side / system last season he be the bee knees probably. Likewise with Coutinho as he has a worldly month or two there, brilliant to look at but there he sits on 4 goals / 4 assists. Btw the two Lallana & Coutinho you have 8 goals & 7 assists....something just does not sit right there as you think there is the 2nd coming of Beardsley or Dalglish but their conversion / creation rate is very average.

All told we are having a poor season in terms of attack as we are relying on a lot of shots from outside the box to be converted into goals which leads to low success rates. The boys above are on like 10% and that needs to shoot up I guess to match what we need. Beautiful to look at but the horse power under the bonnet is misfiring bigtime.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I think the thing that happened a lot last season is the midfield would win the ball high up the pitch in one move and then instantly play Daniel (who had made a run in and behind the defence) in on goal in the next move. That pretty much doesn't happen anymore. His attacking partners are two deep and I think there is now too much attention given to Daniel (who is isolated).

I think you are making good points but I think moving the attackers closer to him would reap more dividends. If the attacking options pushed up the pitch wouldn't that stop Daniel dropping too deep (who almost certainly is dropping to become involved in build up play)?

Here's a diagram that illustrates what I'm talking about - his touches from the first half (from Squawka). What do you notice about them?

[spider-neil]

Here's a diagram that illustrates what I'm talking about - his touches from the first half (from Squawka). What do you notice about them?

Way too deep.
Again, you can argue he is desperate to get involved in play because too much of the action is behind him rather than in and around him.

[PhaseOfPlay]

But, Pop didn`t he create space for the goal by dropping deep and Henderson running in behind him? Didn`t Messi as a false 9 create space for Pedro and Villa by dropping deep and letting them attack the vacated space?

He didn't drop deep for the goal. He made a proper 5 yard checking run. That's different to what he did in the first half, where he was going right into the centre circle to touch the ball. In fact, the difference between the first half touches and the second half touches will illustrate the point I am making.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Way too deep.
Again, you can argue he is desperate to get involved in play because too much of the action is behind him rather than in and around him.

That's not the point I noticed. Look again. And compare it to this image of his touches in the second half. What is the biggest difference between the two? Which illustrates the point I'm making:

[spider-neil]

That's not the point I noticed. Look again. And compare it to this image of his touches in the second half. What is the biggest difference between the two? Which illustrates the point I'm making:

More touches inside the box? But didn't we collectively push up as a unit in the second half thereby compressing the space between Daniel and the attackers pushing him closer to the opposition goal?

[Michel]

He was not moving wide.What's     the cause of this though?'Laziness'?

[spider-neil]

He was not moving wide.What's the cause of this though?'Laziness'?

Okay, yeah, he is pulling wide second half. But he is also closer to goal which was probably the reaction of us pushing higher up the pitch.

[swordfishtrombone]

More touches inside the box? But didn't we collectively push up as a unit in the second half thereby compressing the space between Daniel and the attackers pushing him closer to the opposition goal?

The touches in the first half are all central - in the second half he started to make runs out wide, giving the centre backs a much more difficult decision to make.

[Chakan]

That's not the point I noticed. Look again. And compare it to this image of his touches in the second half. What is the biggest difference between the two? Which illustrates the point I'm making:

He moving out wide a lot more. Creating space in the center?

[spider-neil]

The touches in the first half are all central - in the second half he started to make runs out wide, giving the centre backs a much more difficult decision to make.

But you can argue he pulls wide because he has passing options around him, rather than the first half when the play is all behind him so he drops deep to become involved.

[PhaseOfPlay]

He was not moving wide.What's     the cause of this though?'Laziness'?

Bingo. In the first half, he didn't take a single touch in the left channel, and very few in the right channel. As I said, train-tracks - down the field, up the field. Very easy to defend against.

Second half, though, he was all over the field, and so very hard to pick up. If you have a forward working the channels, it means the other team can't be so cavalier with their fullbacks, which means they have to pull at least one back, which takes away from their possession game. Sturridge is going back to what he knows under pressure - he wants to play in the middle, drift right a little, and get the ball on his left foot to smash one in on goal. But the problem with that is that he becomes very easy to defend against. When he moves across the channels, then he becomes harder to mark, and this splits the defenders, creating space for others. The offshoot of this is that once you have a forward working the channels and forcing defenders to make decisions,  it means that they HAVE to go with him if he checks to the ball, because now he is unpredictable. And this is how we created our goal, because now the Swansea defence have to worry about him. And this is what I mean by looking at his movement before we look at the attacking mids performance and positioning. It's all well and good saying that they have to push up to him, which is correct. But he also has to be creating space with his own movement, which he didn't do in the first half, but which got corrected in the second half. The difference was there for all to see, and confirmed in the heatmaps. Space and movement in football is as much a horizontal idea as it is a vertical one.

[Michel]

But you can argue he pulls wide because he has passing options around him, rather than the first half when the play is all behind him so he drops deep to become involved.

Or he has passing options because he moves wide and he creates space in the middle for other players to get behind.