Topic: Negativity on RAWK

[Crosby Nick]

There is, of course, the fact that Harry had virtually all his squad practising for an entire fortnight in readiness to attempt to blitz us but, that apart, I think one thing above all that can be concluded from what we saw yesterday was just how instrumental the extra quality on the ball of Sterling and Coutinho [and Sturridge when he's fit - and, of course, Luis last season] bring to the table for us.

Up until Coutinho came on QPR had pretty well bossed us all over the pitch individually and collectively except possibly for Sterling's individual sorties and the occasional flicker elsewhere. However, once Coutinho came on so we the had the two players with that extra zip and quality they began - in relative terms to what had preceded Coutinho's arrival on the pitch - to wither.

Imagine if we'd have had Sturridge and Suarez on as well, instead of, presumably Balotelli and Lallana. The game might have ended up with a scoreline of 2-7 in our favour. Perhaps 4-7 if they'd have converted a few more of their own chances. in other words pretty much as we'd have expected last season in our post Christmas flourish.

The point I'm clumsily trying to make is that I really didn't realise until it dawned on me when Coutinho came on and saw the dramatic impact his extra quality had on the game just how dynamic that 'quality' quartet were last seson and just how amazingly influential they were on the outcome of so much of our success.

Reflecting back now it sort of seems obvious in the light of what has just dawned on me. It's just I'd never realised just how massive that overall 'winning' impact of that quality quartet was.

The good news is that once Sturridge does come back we'll have three quarters of that quarttet and the extra quality of the 'threesome' will likely be enough to take us over the line against most opposition. We just have to get all the rest galvanized enough by the presence of the threesome to lift the overalll collective performance to a level where it can also match the top teams.

Anyroad, that's my comfort blanket for the time being.

  

Nice post Timbo. Fair point too I guess. For example when we beat Cardiff 6-3 I think most of us laughed at the ridiculousness of it all and the fact that it came in the middle of a big winning run meant we were caught up in the bigger picture. If you tried to analyse it in isolation we conceded some cheap goals that were probably pretty alarming. Ultimately our extra firepower won us the game. This season we've been lacking that but like you, I saw glimpses of that returning yesterday. We need patience but we can get that back.

The other option would be to tighten up at the back obviously but for whatever reasons that seems the less likely scenario at the moment!

[Paul JH]

5th in the league and we've been, on the whole, shite.

If people can't take happiness out of that, without going 'yes, but paper ... cracks... ' etc?

Everyone agrees we need to improve quickly, but take what positives you can rather than immediately decrying the man who got us back into the CL.
Some colossal fuckwits who launch into the manager after every performance.

 

[kavah]

I've invested more time on here in the last few days than normal (mainly due to man-flu) and have been sponging up the debate for a change.

The issue is something i've seen across every forum i ever inhabited, forget positive or negative, this isn't the real issue, the problem, and if you read posts this way that don't involve you is pretty clear.

People are playing the man, not the post. They are attacking the poster not the content of it and this applies to both sides of the argument and both sides are as equally to blame.

One whopping comment is quoted numerous times by others (this makes forum ignore features pointless in my experience), comments of the positive angle are also re-quoted and done to attack the poster not the post.

In many ways it's the age old "leave the moderating to the moderators" scenario, just as i've noticed a score of posts where people are immediately into someone post history the moment a comment is made, when you go looking at something with suspicion, you'll always be suspicious no matter what they say.

When people undertake these actions they are only interested in the poster and getting ammo or one-up-manship on them.  The cycle then repeats and more and more people pile in either side.

Anyhow, work to do, utd fans in the office to smile at and say 3 points baby .........................................................

Yes that's a good point. The nature of Internet forums I suppose. You know some of the people who go the match have far more vitriol than you'll ever read on here but it's preserved on rawk forever in quotable form. Even on something as balanced and intelligent as the Anfield wrap some of the opinions would not be tolerated on here.
 

[Broad Spectrum]

not only are you a hypocrite but an elitist to boot. You don't intimidate me at all, I'll say how I see it.

nothing wrong in showing some passion that comment was probably taken straight after the game and were my exact thoughts aswell.

I just made those comments up on the spot to show the contrast between productive, and unproductive comments 

I respect that everyone has to vent, I screamed at the TV yesterday when Balotelli hit that side foot into row Z, it absolutely infuriated me beyond words! If you're anything like me, then stay away from RAWK for a couple hours until you can sit back with a clearer head and analysis what you feel the team could have done better. I often try to watch the highlights before commenting because then I can look at individual players in the build up to goals etc. and see exactly where I personally, as a supporter of the team, feel we could improve.

[Paul JH]

One thing I'd add, is that isn't this just the modern fan? Want it all now arseholes who like nothing but mindless internet whinging?
Who actually don't really know how to support a side, just want to do it when the side is winning?

 

[Felch Aid]

Can't really add much more other than we simply have to stick together through a difficult stage. Maybe transition really has arrived now and it's a rather bitter pill to swallow.

[Broad Spectrum]

This was a brilliant post. I was constantly abused on another forum for telling people to stop being so negative and overly aggressive towards the team they supposedly support and to have a little faith (and this was when it was about 0-0 if I remember), and just got sarcastic replies like "Faith in what?" or people telling me to fuck off.

Rightly so I rubbed it in when it came to 3-2 at the end (to which they probably abused the team a little more and slagged off the performance no doubt).

All I saw was constant abuse towards Balotelli by those behind their keyboards, whilst those in the away end at QPR sung his name after a missed shot.

I don't know about others but in my mind being a Liverpool fan is about SUPPORTING your team through thick and thin. Justified criticism is okay, but when it comes to abuse and aggression, thats where I draw the line between annoyance and stupidity.

To be honest mate, hope I don't offend you here, but I've never understood how people can sit and write on a forum whilst they're supposed to be watching their team. Don't get me wrong if it's a pre-season friendly etc. then that's fine. But when we're in the middle of a league game it's crazy how people would rather converse with others online than actually watch the match.

And Personally I think it's best just to ignore all the hostile and negative comments.

[Red_Mist]

The worst of the comments yesterday was by a poster who now can't post for over a month.

Yes, we can, of course we can but there are many posters who don't cross the line as such but instead derail debate with their constant repetitive negativity.

If he warranted a month's ban, why let him back at all?

And you know that as many derail things by rising to the bait as do by the original negative comments. Report to Mod if it's OTT and move on to someone who is criticising constructively. You and the other mods request this til you're blue in the face.

[The 5th Benitle]

If he warranted a month's ban, why let him back at all?

And you know that as many derail things by rising to the bait as do by the original negative comments. Report to Mod if it's OTT and move on to someone who is criticising constructively. You and the other mods request this til you're blue in the face.

He probably won't be, permanent bans are muted first then discussed.

And to your second point, absolutely and I'm not sure why you think I'm disagreeing?

[Timbo's Goals]

Nice post Timbo. Fair point too I guess. For example when we beat Cardiff 6-3 I think most of us laughed at the ridiculousness of it all and the fact that it came in the middle of a big winning run meant we were caught up in the bigger picture. If you tried to analyse it in isolation we conceded some cheap goals that were probably pretty alarming. Ultimately our extra firepower won us the game. This season we've been lacking that but like you, I saw glimpses of that returning yesterday. We need patience but we can get that back.

The other option would be to tighten up at the back obviously but for whatever reasons that seems the less likely scenario at the moment!

Absolutely. The thing is CSN I've seen folks mention this before. And the reality of it has never really sunk in with me until those first few moments following Coutinho's introduction and we immediately had a player on the pitch who looked comfortably better than his adverseries. Then Sterling stareted doing the same and I began to realise just what it must have been like for teams facing that 'quality quartet' last season and just how hugely instrumental they'd been in what we witnessed.

As for the defence, we've got to believe it can begin to assert some sort of domination. The effortless way Zamora and the other guy asserted themselves in virtually every challenge was excruciating to witness. that just has to be sorted. One real positive for me at the back was Mignolet's overall game was far better. I'd say that was the best I've seen him. he seems to have got some belief and confidence back.

[Red_Mist]

One thing I'd add, is that isn't this just the modern fan?

No, my granddad went for over 70 years and took me to dozens of games. I couldn't believe the abuse he gave some players he didn't rate. Classic main stand moaner!

[Red_Mist]

And to your second point, absolutely and I'm not sure why you think I'm disagreeing?

I don't, on that point.

[Hinesy]

As for me.  A wins a win.  I don't much care how its done.  But you've got to stick by your team.  We are supporters.  That is what we do.  Support.  And if we played shite and got lucky, so what?  We came home with the three points.  I can't see any merit in playing beautiful football and being gallant losers.  We're nicely placed in the table and a euro night on Wednesday.  What's not to like? 

This is pretty much how I feel, although I do care if I can have a say, on how its done. But Maggie's right, its a win. The great old teams of yesterday won 1-0 on a scrappy pitch. Liverpool have never been utterly free flowing attacking football, its always been about the defence, (which is why this season is frustrating).

What I will say is that as ever, RAWK allows, or should allow, all comments and responses about the game, provided they're made reasonably. Shouting 'utter shite' or 'get rid' is the same as kicking the cat at home, but its not the same when you remember 1,000's of other people are reading this. You wouldn't kick your cat in front of everyone, nor should you come on here venting bollocks. The post match topic was always meant to be a kneejerk reaction thread, and don't presume that we only want one opinion on here. We want one style of writing any opinion, that is with a little respect and thought. Especially when its about your team! That I find extraordinary.

[Timbo's Goals]

No, my granddad went for over 70 years and took me to dozens of games. I couldn't believe the abuse he gave some players he didn't rate. Classic main stand moaner!

So it was him was it. Always wondered who it was.

 

It's funny when I read all these posts berating the modern day negativity as if the crowd used to be composed of 100% positive souls urging the players on through thick and thin with not a whinger to be seen or heard. Doesn't quite tally with the reality, as noble a sentiment as it might seem.

Same as the posts that pine for the time when the crowd used to sing from start to finish. Apart from the fact such a thing would have been boring as fuck like some of these pseudo-Kop German crowds you get these days who deliver a continuous horrendous din/dirge that bears not the slightest relationship to what's taking place on the pitch, the sobering reality is that the Kop never was a start to finish singing entity.

No, the Kop was just smart. Smarter than any other crowd. As the original originator of the kind of vocal support we still see today and have ever since it invented the idiom  it always knew exactly when to deliver and when it didn't matter a jot. In essence, it still does today. Somehow.

 

[Hinesy]

Also touching on that, he did that at the ground and a few around him heard it and laughed, agreed, or didn't and then it was gone. Your granddad didn't then take his comment home and write it down and publish it for 30,000 people he'd never met, to read it.

[DonkeyWan]

It's not just negativity though, there is also the other extreme, the overly-positive who just keep posting stuff like 'in X we trust', 'we are Liverpool' etc. Reminiscent of those stupid 'Believe' adverts'.

In part the relentlessly negative are a reaction to the relentlessly positive, these things don't happen in a vacuum.

I have said it elsewhere, the real problem with RAWK these days is the middle ground is continuously squeezed between these two extremes, if you post a mildly disparaging post in victory, the 'postivists' will harangue you for your treachery, post an upbeat post in defeat and the 'negativists' will screech at for your blind stupidity.

Yesterday was the perfect battleground for the extremists, a victory that felt like a defeat, chances of reasoned discussion and analysis 0%

I think the mods attempted to balance these two camps with innovations like the 'round table' post, but even this has been suffering a bit as it has become populated by posters who think that they have to have a lengthy post to appear serious (which end up TL:DR), rather than a reasoned, reflective one (not that I am any saint here, all my posts seem massive) the result has been a lot of opinions, not enough consensus forming analysis.

The problem as I see it is if the mods only hammer the negativists (who are patience trying) the positivists will hail this as a mighty victory and the forum will be overrun with zealots.   

[Hinesy]

I don't personally I've hammered any negative posters as opposed to hammering negative posts that are abusive. "We were shit" may be true but of no value. But I take your point DW

[CallumLFC]

Lovren told Liverpoolfc.com after the final whistle: "It was an unbelievable game. It's the first time in my career that I'm unhappy after a win.'

[DonkeyWan]

I don't personally I've hammered any negative posters as opposed to hammering negative posts that are abusive. "We were shit" may be true but of no value. But I take your point DW

I think most of the mods have shown remarkable forbearance (some less so though). I am more concerned about what they might do in the future to resolve the extremes of negativity. All I'm really saying is, don't address one end of the spectrum in isolation.

[thelinnen]

Being happy with that performance yesterday is just papering over the cracks. I didn't react at all to us taking the lead yesterday because the truth is we didn't deserve it and a better team would have been beating us 2 or 3-0 by then. It's understandable for people to be annoyed with the performance because we deserved to win almost all of our games last season and the quality of defending gave me a headache yesterday. It's a bit of a shock how poor we look compared to the run in last season.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Actually I reckon this time last year that performance would have been met with a similar response. We started better last year, but only marginally performance wise. The performance at 8 games last year would have been received as confirmation that we were not capable of challenging seriously and that we were riding our luck.

We are bedding new players in, and lack the quality of sturridge and suarez we had last season. Rodgers showed last season that he was good at working out a way of making the most of the resources at his disposal going forward. He has not shown any capability with regard to improving our defensive solidity as yet. This season has many possibilities, and reasons to be positive and negative. Whilst posters may go over the top at times there is plenty of room for criticism and concern as well as optimism. But then football is a game of opinions for fans and will always be. Unfortunately some of us have bigger mouths (is it fingers now?!?)than others!!

Sorry mate I kinda meant once we'd started to click and were doing we'll.  I think Timbo may have posted something similar to me, last years Cardiff game was a good example. We were absolute shite at the back but won 6-3 I think. I bet the post match thread that day was how a lot of people think the QPR thread should have been. Problem is, the team had "Credits in the bank" with the fans, so we just saw the positives in a crazy win.

[Timbo's Goals]

Also touching on that, he did that at the ground and a few around him heard it and laughed, agreed, or didn't and then it was gone. Your granddad didn't then take his comment home and write it down and publish it for 30,000 people he'd never met, to read it.

Stone me H. Is that right?

30,000!!!

Wow. Gonna have to cut out all the bad language.

Got to say in my naivety I've always assumed it's just those posting.

Really good point then if that's the case.

NO MORE FLIPPING NEGATIVITY!!!!

[DonkeyWan]

Sorry mate I kinda meant once we'd started to click and were doing we'll.  I think Timbo may have posted something similar to me, last years Cardiff game was a good example. We were absolute shite at the back but won 6-3 I think. I bet the post match thread that day was how a lot of people think the QPR thread should have been. Problem is, the team had "Credits in the bank" with the fans, so we just saw the positives in a crazy win.

I would also add that using last year as a touchstone is also pretty annoying. 9 new players and all we keep saying is 'hey, remember last year when you weren't here? We were really great then!'. Using the team performance from last year to beat up this team is a touch out of context I feel.

[RainbowFlick]

The personal attacks and need for finding a scapegoat for every single damn bad performance grates me. We were woeful across the board, and have been for much of this season (minus I'd say Sterling, and the game against Tottenham).

Solely cannot blame Balotelli either, his service has been poor-to-average at best. Some decent opportunities but he's just out of form. He will come good.

[Crosby Nick]

Being happy with that performance yesterday is just papering over the cracks.

I doubt anyone has said they were happy with the performance. Being happy with the result is a separate thing and they're not mutually exclusive.

You can look at it two ways:

1) We're playing badly but are not in a bad position points wise. As long as we improve we will still challenge for top 4

2) We're playing badly and if we continue to do so we'll struggle to challenge for top 4

Both statements are valid at this stage, the question is whether you believe we will improve as the season progresses (as we have done in both seasons under Rodgers)

[Rob Dylan]

that's exactly what you are saying.

There are players in the team who are clearly not performing and deserve criticism. Stop avoiding the real problems.

But, as I said yesterday, it doesn't matter whether we avoid them or not - we can't control how the team plays, and it's not our responsibility to fix it. Of course people want to analyse and debate where we're going wrong, but some people seem to think that we must put ourself through this terribly serious and painful self-analysis (and that we can't just be happy that we've won), otherwise we'll never get better. But it will make no difference - as long as the manager and players know that they must improve (which they do), that's all that matters - because they are the only ones that can fix it.

Some people think that they are a lot more important and influential than they actually are. Our anaylsis and criticism of players will make absolutely no difference to the teams' performances. So lighten up a bit!

[Dougle]

As for the defence, we've got to believe it can begin to assert some sort of domination. The effortless way Zamora and the other guy asserted themselves in virtually every challenge was excruciating to witness. that just has to be sorted. One real positive for me at the back was Mignolet's overall game was far better. I'd say that was the best I've seen him. he seems to have got some belief and confidence back.

You know, at the risk of being mangled here on the forum when I watched the second half back last night I noticed that for quite a long period of the second half yesterday QPR didn't at all threaten us. In fact our much maligned central defense actually completely dominated the QPR 2. The problem came after we scored. More intelligent posters than me will have the proper view here but it seemed to me both tactical, we drifted further back but it was not just that, there is a mental fragility too. I how many games this season have we conceded daft late goals, 2 yesterday, Boro twice, Lovengrats, Everton ... ? That's off the top of my head. It's not negative to say we have a problem, it's clear as daylight.

[filopastry]

It's not just negativity though, there is also the other extreme, the overly-positive who just keep posting stuff like 'in X we trust', 'we are Liverpool' etc. Reminiscent of those stupid 'Believe' adverts'.

In part the relentlessly negative are a reaction to the relentlessly positive, these things don't happen in a vacuum.

I have said it elsewhere, the real problem with RAWK these days is the middle ground is continuously squeezed between these two extremes, if you post a mildly disparaging post in victory, the 'postivists' will harangue you for your treachery, post an upbeat post in defeat and the 'negativists' will screech at for your blind stupidity.

Yesterday was the perfect battleground for the extremists, a victory that felt like a defeat, chances of reasoned discussion and analysis 0%

I think the mods attempted to balance these two camps with innovations like the 'round table' post, but even this has been suffering a bit as it has become populated by posters who think that they have to have a lengthy post to appear serious (which end up TL:DR), rather than a reasoned, reflective one (not that I am any saint here, all my posts seem massive) the result has been a lot of opinions, not enough consensus forming analysis.

The problem as I see it is if the mods only hammer the negativists (who are patience trying) the positivists will hail this as a mighty victory and the forum will be overrun with zealots.   

A lot of truth in that on here I think.

Its one reason I rarely post on football related stuff anymore, not that I am any great loss on that one mind you!

[Maggie May]

This is pretty much how I feel, although I do care if I can have a say, on how its done. But Maggie's right, its a win. The great old teams of yesterday won 1-0 on a scrappy pitch. Liverpool have never been utterly free flowing attacking football, its always been about the defence, (which is why this season is frustrating).

What I will say is that as ever, RAWK allows, or should allow, all comments and responses about the game, provided they're made reasonably. Shouting 'utter shite' or 'get rid' is the same as kicking the cat at home, but its not the same when you remember 1,000's of other people are reading this. You wouldn't kick your cat in front of everyone, nor should you come on here venting bollocks. The post match topic was always meant to be a kneejerk reaction thread, and don't presume that we only want one opinion on here. We want one style of writing any opinion, that is with a little respect and thought. Especially when its about your team! That I find extraordinary.

Leaving aside the cat kicking thing  TSK Hinesy   People really should  get in touch with their history.  I don't know what they thought happened in the days gone by when it seemed we effortlessly won all in front of us with glossy football.  We didn't.  Often it was hard slog and we played what is termed ugly football.  But we won and we stood by by our team.  But that was in the days before the internet where now everybody has an opinion.  Well everybody has an areshole.  Doesn't

[JerseyKloppite]

It's garbage. The horde of people that come out after a bad game to vent their frustration is mainly posting garbage. The quality of it is garbage. When they're done venting they often go back and don't care. It's for the people who are on here a lot, the people who care about the writing and care about the site, who are here almost every day, it's for those that it's annoying garbage.

It's when you have builders/constructors around. They have a container in your yard and over night all the neighbors have thrown their trash in it. The neighbors don't give a fuck since they've disposed of their trash, it's up to you and the builders to make it decent again. Until the container is emptied and the thick neighbors are back to throw their trash in it.

Think this sums up my frustration with it perfectly and why it's not always a simple case of 'ignoring it' if you don't like it.

that's exactly what you are saying.

There are players in the team who are clearly not performing and deserve criticism. Stop avoiding the real problems.

You've completely ignored the OP and are spouting rubbish. You then conveniently ignored someone highlighting the problem by demonstrating the difference between proper criticism and emotive, kneejerk bile.

At the end of the day, this is a private forum, and no-one has a right to 'post what they like'. No one is avoiding the problems either - my OP in fact highlights that we were rubbish yesterday. The issue is people taking no joy from a win, being constantly and unermittingly negative and taking more joy in saying 'I told you so' than noticing that actually we won the game. Post what you like but keep it respectful. It's not elitist to try to keep the quality of writing on this site high.

[Chakan]

Being happy with that performance yesterday is just papering over the cracks. I didn't react at all to us taking the lead yesterday because the truth is we didn't deserve it and a better team would have been beating us 2 or 3-0 by then. It's understandable for people to be annoyed with the performance because we deserved to win almost all of our games last season and the quality of defending gave me a headache yesterday. It's a bit of a shock how poor we look compared to the run in last season.

You didn't react at all to taking the lead?! Why do you support us then?

Bloody hell I was ecstatic when we took the lead. I was unhappy when they equalized then I was over the moon when Coutinho scored then I was depressed when they equalized then I was jumping around and going "wtf!!wtf!!" when we won it.

I don't understand how you couldn't have reacted at all.  Just sitting at the tv going "meh". Makes no sense to me.

[Timbo's Goals]

You know, at the risk of being mangled here on the forum when I watched the second half back last night I noticed that for quite a long period of the second half yesterday QPR didn't at all threaten us. In fact our much maligned central defense actually completely dominated the QPR 2. The problem came after we scored. More intelligent posters than me will have the proper view here but it seemed to me both tactical, we drifted further back but it was not just that, there is a mental fragility too. I how many games this season have we conceded daft late goals, 2 yesterday, Boro twice, Lovengrats, Everton ... ? That's off the top of my head. It's not negative to say we have a problem, it's clear as daylight.

Interesting, though you're not tempting me into watching it again. No way, Jose. I'll take your word for it.

 


As you say though the thing simply HAS to be improved. You cannot have a front two, any front two - no disrespect to theirs when I say that as the three of them showed they're good players - doing what the hell they like in and around our - that's OUR - penalty box.

[Ken-Obi]

Negativity on RAWK is a hipster thing. It's cool to be all judgemental and react differently to the 'herd'. They see things common folks like us don't and consider football a chess match, a tapestry of intricately woven strings, dismissing teething and bedding in issues as symptomatic signs of impending implosion.

"Told you so", is their most favourite line, said not in pride of being right but in the burden of knowing what others do not.

Yeah.

[thelinnen]

You didn't react at all to taking the lead?! Why do you support us then?

Bloody hell I was ecstatic when we took the lead. I was unhappy when they equalized then I was over the moon when Coutinho scored then I was depressed when they equalized then I was jumping around and going "wtf!!wtf!!" when we won it.

I don't understand how you couldn't have reacted at all.  Just sitting at the tv going "meh". Makes no sense to me.

That's one of the very few times I haven't reacted to a liverpool goal. To me QPR are so shit even on our worst day we should be winning 2 or 3-0.

I'm fully in support of Brendan but questions should be asked why we've spent so much money and looked so much worse, particularly in defense.

[Chakan]

That's one of the very few times I haven't reacted to a liverpool goal. To me QPR are so shit even on our worst day we should be winning 2 or 3-0.

I'm fully in support of Brendan but questions should be asked why we've spent so much money and looked so much worse, particularly in defense.

Consider me baffled then. Actually don't think the defense has changed much since last year, difference is our attack isn't anywhere near where we were, which is understandable since we're playing without Suarez and Sturridge.

[DonkeyWan]

That's one of the very few times I haven't reacted to a liverpool goal. To me QPR are so shit even on our worst day we should be winning 2 or 3-0.

I'm fully in support of Brendan but questions should be asked why we've spent so much money and looked so much worse, particularly in defense.

That's incredibly arrogant and blinkered.

A quick flick through Liverpool's history will tell you they have played QPR 47 times, winning 33, drawing 7 and losing 7. Our away record is; won 13, drew 5 lost 6.

So, away to QPR Liverpool have a bout a 50:50 chance of winning, historically, and you reckon they should be winning all those games 2 or 3 nil?

That's not only wishful thinking not grounded in reality,  but very insulting to QPR.

I think people need to be a bit more respectful to opponents, perhaps that would greatly improve attitudes also.

[Mutton Geoff]

That's incredibly arrogant and blinkered.

A quick flick through Liverpool's history will tell you they have played QPR 47 times, winning 33, drawing 7 and losing 7. Our away record is; won 13, drew 5 lost 6.

So, away to QPR Liverpool have a bout a 50:50 chance of winning, historically, and you reckon they should be winning all those games 2 or 3 nil?

That's not only wishful thinking not grounded in reality,  but very insulting to QPR.

I think people need to be a bit more respectful to opponents, perhaps that would greatly improve attitudes also.

Spot on they think opponents will just bend down and assume the position, arrogance leads to inevitable despair and from some blame factors when we dont reach their unreachable expectations

[Walshy nMe®]

I still don't see what there is to be negative about. We are 4 points off 2nd, we are in the Champions League playing Madrid on Wednesday, we have a fantastic young squad, a fantastic young manager and we were 2nd last season.

What is there to be negative about?

Add to the fact we lost to 2nd, so not counting that game we have only slipped a point behind them over 7 games.

[john_mac]

Yesterday was the perfect battleground for the extremists, a victory that felt like a defeat, chances of reasoned discussion and analysis 0%

I'm seriously lost as to why it felt like a defeat? It felt like a double win for me, 3 points we should never have got, a proper old fashioned 'we got out of jail there'.

[john_mac]

That's one of the very few times I haven't reacted to a liverpool goal. To me QPR are so shit even on our worst day we should be winning 2 or 3-0.

I'm fully in support of Brendan but questions should be asked why we've spent so much money and looked so much worse, particularly in defense.

To be honest if you don't react to a late Liverpool winner in any shape or form, I would question what qualifies you to think yourself a Liverpool supporter?