Topic: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)

[Yorkykopite]

I'm not following your reasoning here. When people called South Africa apartheid, they didn't mean it (SA) had no right to exist and that it should be eliminated. They simply wanted the powers that were in SA at that time to change the system.

Am I taking you up wrongly?

I think they did. Anti-Apartheid campaigners (the vast majority of people in South Africa) wanted the regime scrapped and uprooted. The mountains and the rivers of South Africa would stay, and in that sense it was to be the same country, but in every other sense it was to be a different one. They wanted a new nation with new institutions re-founded on entirely different principles. A non-racial democracy in other words (ie the system that currently prevails inside Israel).

I'm maybe not the best person to say what someone like Asam (on this thread) wants for Israel or Palestine. But I don't think he wants the two-state solution! He is an anti-Zionist clearly, but what does he think should replace Israel? I would imagine he wants a new country, with new institutions, re-founded on entirely different principles. The rivers and mountains will stay, but everything else will change.

He must want this since he thinks Israel is "a racist apartheid state, much worse than the regime that was present in South Africa" and that "anyone who supports Israel is a cheerleader for ethno-supremacist policies deliberately conceived and implemented to disenfranchise, ethnically cleanse and remove Palestinian people from their home lands."

Pretty strong stuff! He also compared those people who defend Israel's right to exist to the Ku Klux Klan, which shows what he thinks of certain fellow-posters on RAWK and, arguably, what he also thinks about Jews. 

[Yorkykopite]

Do you think the people who labelled South Africa an apartheid state were saying that "it had no right to exist and wanted it eliminated", or do you think they just wanted to see the end of cultural/racial segregation??

Speaking for myself, I am quite sure it was the later.

Thanks. You've rather neatly made my point for me. The ANC and its supporters wanted to rewrite the constitution and uproot the Apartheid state. They did not limit themselves to ending racial segregation.

I think maybe you are getting confused with the civil-rights movement in America who were happy with the US Constitution and wanted the nation to live up to its promises. Their aim was limited to ending racial segregation. (or "cultural segregation" as you so coyly put it!)

Something much bigger was going on in South Africa (as I thought everyone knew).

[Wild Romany Boy]

Thanks. You've rather neatly made my point for me. The ANC and its supporters wanted to rewrite the constitution and uproot the Apartheid state. They did not limit themselves to ending racial segregation.

I think maybe you are getting confused with the civil-rights movement in America who were happy with the US Constitution and wanted the nation to live up to its promises. Their aim was limited to ending racial segregation. (or "cultural segregation" as you so coyly put it!)

Something much bigger was going on in South Africa (as I thought everyone knew).

In two posts you have called one of the posters an anti-Semite and insulted the intelligence of the one you are replying to there.

It's good going dear fellow but I'm not sure it's cricket.

[Corkboy]

I think they did. Anti-Apartheid campaigners (the vast majority of people in South Africa) wanted the regime scrapped and uprooted. The mountains and the rivers of South Africa would stay, and in that sense it was to be the same country, but in every other sense it was to be a different one. They wanted a new nation with new institutions re-founded on entirely different principles. A non-racial democracy in other words (ie the system that currently prevails inside Israel).

It's just that phrases like the right to exist and elimination are really loaded when discussing Israel because of its origin, history and naturally the Holocaust. To that extent, I'm not sure comparisons with other places are helpful. Having said that, maybe comparator phrases like apartheid aren't helpful either, for much the same reason.

Leaving aside the West Bank, the citizenship laws in Israel are problematic. Without reaching for the apartheid comparator, if you have a state of affairs where citizenship is at least partly bound up with ethno-religious identification (as I understand it is in Israel), you're open to criticism.

[Asam]

So presumably you take a pretty dim view of Hamas' existence too?

Would you also say 'anyone who supports Hamas is a cheerleader for ethno-supremacist policies'? If not, how come?

Hamas is a symptom and result of Israel oppression, they exist because of the racism of Israel
Palestinians never tried to exile and kick out all Jews when it was a Palestinian state so get your fucking facts right and enough of the silly whataboutisms it’s not going to work

[Yorkykopite]

In two posts you have called one of the posters an anti-Semite and insulted the intelligence of the one you are replying to there.

I realise you want a barney, but I'll try not to give you one. I did not call him an anti-semite. That is the inference you drew. Fair enough.

But it's interesting to me that this has drawn your outrage and not the poster in question calling his fellow-RAWKites the equivalent of "KKK" and "cheerleaders for ethno-supremacist policies".

[Sangria]

Hamas is a symptom and result of Israel oppression, they exist because of the racism of Israel
Palestinians never tried to exile and kick out all Jews when it was a Palestinian state so get your fucking facts right and enough of the silly whataboutisms it’s not going to work

IIRC the first acts of terrorism in the modern history of that area happened when existing Arab inhabitants of the area took exception to the influx of Jewish immigrants. May have happened from pre-WWI, may have happened inter-war. Your comment and the force behind it is definitely incorrect though.

[Red-Soldier]

Thanks. You've rather neatly made my point for me. The ANC and its supporters wanted to rewrite the constitution and uproot the Apartheid state. They did not limit themselves to ending racial segregation.

I think maybe you are getting confused with the civil-rights movement in America who were happy with the US Constitution and wanted the nation to live up to its promises. Their aim was limited to ending racial segregation. (or "cultural segregation" as you so coyly put it!)

Something much bigger was going on in South Africa (as I thought everyone knew).

Not really.  The state never ceased to exist, as far as I am aware.  Of course, there were fundamental changes in SA, but the country remained on the map throughout (it did on the ones I saw anyway).

No confusion here thanks.  Nobody has mentioned the US as far as I can see.



The ANC (people fighting apartheid) didn't want to eliminate the country, they just wanted it changed (which they did). 

[Yorkykopite]

It's just that phrases like the right to exist and elimination are really loaded when discussing Israel because of its origin, history and naturally the Holocaust. To that extent, I'm not sure comparisons with other places are helpful.

I agree.

Unfortunately they keep landing in the thread.

[classycarra]

Hamas is a symptom and result of Israel oppression, they exist because of the racism of Israel
Palestinians never tried to exile and kick out all Jews when it was a Palestinian state so get your fucking facts right and enough of the silly whataboutisms it’s not going to work

Cool, glad to clarify.

So, to summarise your point, 'ethno-supremacist policies are really bad, except for when they're not'

Looking at your post on the previous page too, you say that being supportive of Israel (by this you appear to include everyone resident there, including those who didn't vote for the gov't and those who are not jewish) one is a "cheerleader for ethno-supremacist policies".

Yet here you are saying talking about Hamas and Palestinians, and you don't seem to apply your same generalisations that everyone who is supportive of Hamas is a "cheerleader for ethno-supremacist policies". Is there a reason?

[Wild Romany Boy]

I agree.

Unfortunately they keep landing in the thread.

You landed a couple yourself Yorky 

Right to exist being one of them.

[Yorkykopite]

Hamas is a symptom and result of Israel oppression, they exist because of the racism of Israel

 

[jillcwhomever]

I had to read that post twice to take it in.

[classycarra]

But it's interesting to me that this has drawn your outrage and not the poster in question calling his fellow-RAWKites the equivalent of "KKK" and "cheerleaders for ethno-supremacist policies".

Not to mention making Hillsborough inferences and suggesting anyone who doesn't think the state of Israel is "vile and horrific" is not really a proper Liverpool fan.

Thought that was a pretty ugly route to take

[Yorkykopite]

Not to mention making Hillsborough inferences and suggesting anyone who doesn't think the state of Israel is "vile and horrific" is not really a proper Liverpool fan.

Thought that was a pretty ugly route to take

Hysterical by temper, hysterical by analysis. It is ugly, but I'm sort of glad it's up there.

[Asam]

I had to read that post twice to take it in.

Hamas didn’t exist prior to 2006 so please know your facts before posting

Israeli oppression led to people taking up arms, I’m surprised that you find that so difficult to comprehend

[jillcwhomever]

Hamas didn’t exist prior to 2006 so please know your facts before posting

Israeli oppression led to people taking up arms, I’m surprised that you find that so difficult to comprehend

You of all people are in no position to lecture others about being accurate.

[Asam]

Hysterical by temper, hysterical by analysis. It is ugly, but I'm sort of glad it's up there.

I’m also glad that people can see the ones on this site who are cheerleaders for a racist apartheid state and will excuse blatant racism in the name of balance

[Asam]

You of all people are in no position to lecture others about being accurate.

What’s not accurate?

[Yorkykopite]

What’s not accurate?

Where to begin?

Don't worry, I'm not going to. There'd be no bandwidth left.

The naughty little laugh was merely at your (classic) assertion that Hamas was nasty because Israel had made her so.

[Asam]

Not to mention making Hillsborough inferences and suggesting anyone who doesn't think the state of Israel is "vile and horrific" is not really a proper Liverpool fan.

Thought that was a pretty ugly route to take

Like it or not Palestinian lives matter, the families of people in Palestine mourn their loved ones just as much as Liverpool supporters who lost loved ones at Hillsborough, the western media depicts the lives of Palestinians as inconsequential, they are most definitely not.

Imagine the pain of those families, Hillsborough is similar to what they experience over there on a daily basis, there are striking similarities in the way that the society and media colluded against the struggle for justice. If that makes people feel something other than casual apathy of seeing Palestinians suffer then I’ve done my job.

[jillcwhomever]

What’s not accurate?

Plenty especially in the disgusting post that you posted on the other page. Anyone who uses Hillsborough to make a point is not someone who I have much time for. generally.

[Asam]

Where to begin?

Don't worry, I'm not going to. There'd be no bandwidth left.

The naughty little laugh was merely at your (classic) assertion that Hamas was nasty because Israel had made her so.

The IRA did not exist before England took over Northern Ireland, Hamas didn’t exist before Israel and that was after 50 odd years of oppression

[Sangria]

I’m also glad that people can see the ones on this site who are cheerleaders for a racist apartheid state and will excuse blatant racism in the name of balance

What about those like me who think that Israel are bad but the other side(s) are much worse?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Hamas didn’t exist prior to 2006 so please know your facts before posting

Israeli oppression led to people taking up arms, I’m surprised that you find that so difficult to comprehend

So, not 1987 then? Hamas won election in Palestine in 2006, and its origins lie in Egypt (Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood).

I do not know enough about the subject to engage properly here, but I thought it worth posting that correction.

[Elmo!]

I'm sure some of the original support for Hamas came about because of the actions of Israel. I'm also sure some of it just came from antisemitism, or just power hungry people that saw an opportunity to take power in Palestine.

The more pertinent question is probably "Would Hamas have reached the critical mass to get into power without the action of Israel?"

Everything is always treated in such black and white ways in here and elsewhere on this subject.

[Corkboy]

The IRA did not exist before England took over Northern Ireland

Oh dear.

[jillcwhomever]

I'm sure some of the original support for Hamas came about because of the actions of Israel. I'm also sure some of it just came from antisemitism, or just power hungry people that saw an opportunity to take power in Palestine.

The more pertinent question is probably "Would Hamas have reached the critical mass to get into power without the action of Israel?"

Everything is always treated in such black and white ways in here and elsewhere on this subject.

Exactly, this situation is anything but black and white so when people try and argue in that vain it always makes the thread lose it's way badly.

[Jiminy Cricket]

I'm sure some of the original support for Hamas came about because of the actions of Israel. I'm also sure some of it just came from antisemitism, or just power hungry people that saw an opportunity to take power in Palestine.

The more pertinent question is probably "Would Hamas have reached the critical mass to get into power without the action of Israel?"

Everything is always treated in such black and white ways in here and elsewhere on this subject.

That's reasonable, I think.

[TepidT2O]

Oh dear.

Well it’s an opinion, you’ve got to give him that.

[classycarra]

Like it or not Palestinian lives matter, the families of people in Palestine mourn their loved ones just as much as Liverpool supporters who lost loved ones at Hillsborough, the western media depicts the lives of Palestinians as inconsequential, they are most definitely not.

Imagine the pain of those families, Hillsborough is similar to what they experience over there on a daily basis, there are striking similarities in the way that the society and media colluded against the struggle for justice. If that makes people feel something other than casual apathy of seeing Palestinians suffer then I’ve done my job.

Please don't project your view that it's only possible to "feel something" for only one 'side' onto me.

[Yorkykopite]

Everything is always treated in such black and white ways in here and elsewhere on this subject.

Not everything and not always, and neither here nor elsewhere. 

There are some very good studies of Hamas around. You cannot talk about its growth and domination (in Gaza) without talking about Israel of course. But you can't begin to understand these things without also looking at the internal politics of Palestinian nationalism and - especially - wider the political, theological and generational changes in the Muslim world generally - especially since the 1979 Iranian revolution. As said several times on this thread (by me at least), Israel felt in 1986 that Hamas might be a safer bet than the PLO, believing it to be driven by the Islamist ideas of its parent organisation the Muslim Brotherhood, and therefore uninterested in Palestinian statehood, and in consequence the Israeli secret services nudged it along. A catastrophic mistake.

Though in one sense Israel is right. Hamas would prefer a caliphate over the whole region. But it certainly hasn't been averse to snatching the flag of Palestinian nationalism from its enemies in the PLO (and putting those defeated enemies to death if needs be).

Quite what Hamas would do to the Jews if they got a chance, who knows. Their founding charter suggests mass extermination and famously blames the Jews for international communism and international capitalism (go figure). Most Israelis - Jews and Arabs - probably wouldn't like to give them a chance. 

[Asam]

Not everything and not always, and neither here nor elsewhere. 

There are some very good studies of Hamas around. You cannot talk about its growth and domination (in Gaza) without talking about Israel of course. But you can't begin to understand these things without also looking at the internal politics of Palestinian nationalism and - especially - wider the political, theological and generational changes in the Muslim world generally - especially since the 1979 Iranian revolution. As said several times on this thread (by me at least), Israel felt in 1986 that Hamas might be a safer bet than the PLO, believing it to be driven by the Islamist ideas of its parent organisation the Muslim Brotherhood, and therefore uninterested in Palestinian statehood, and in consequence the Israeli secret services nudged it along. A catastrophic mistake.

Though in one sense Israel is right. Hamas would prefer a caliphate over the whole region. But it certainly hasn't been averse to snatching the flag of Palestinian nationalism from its enemies in the PLO (and putting those defeated enemies to death if needs be).

Quite what Hamas would do to the Jews if they got a chance, who knows. Their founding charter suggests mass extermination and famously blames the Jews for international communism and international capitalism (go figure). Most Israelis - Jews and Arabs - probably wouldn't like to give them a chance.

What is this shit? Israel is the power in charge, instead of mental gymnastics about what the Palestinians and Hamas “might” do why don’t your hold is real to account for what it has been doing for over 70 Years

It beggars beliefs that people are frankly stupid enough to concern themselves about what Hamas might or could do, when someone is breaking international law and enforcing apartheid right in front of your fucking eyes with impunity

[TepidT2O]

What is this shit? Israel is the power in charge, instead of mental gymnastics about what the Palestinians and Hamas “might” do why don’t your hold is real to account for what it has been doing for over 70 Years

It beggars beliefs that people are frankly stupid enough to concern themselves about what Hamas might or could do, when someone is breaking international law and enforcing apartheid right in front of your fucking eyes with impunity

Once again, you are demeaning other posters rather than making a cogent argument.

If you cannot discuss an issue with civility then take a break from the thread. 

Time and again, you have failed to discuss with civility.

It’s not very much to ask.

Try it.

[Nobby Reserve]

There seems to be a renewed focus on the persecutory actions of Israel against the indigenous Arab Palestinians.

Their scumbaggery seems more reported for some reason.

Long may this higher level of exposure continue.

[Bobsackamano]

What is this shit? Israel is the power in charge, instead of mental gymnastics about what the Palestinians and Hamas “might” do why don’t your hold is real to account for what it has been doing for over 70 Years

It beggars beliefs that people are frankly stupid enough to concern themselves about what Hamas might or could do, when someone is breaking international law and enforcing apartheid right in front of your fucking eyes with impunity

Defending itself from invading Arab countries and terrorist organisations?

People need to get their heads around the fact that Israel will always be a Jewish nation and they will implement laws to solidify this fact that to Western eyes can appear unequal and oppressive to its minority populations.

I would compare the Jewish situation to other middle east minorities who have failed to create nation states for themselves, such as the Kurds or Yazidis. The lesson is clear, the Israelies are in a much better situation than the other minorities in the Muslim countries so never allow yourself to be a minority in a Muslim country, things tend to go badly.

[TepidT2O]

Given that a two state solution is unlikely as the Palestinians won’t agree to it, what solution do people suggest to bring peace?

[Wild Romany Boy]

Once again, you are demeaning other posters rather than making a cogent argument.

If you cannot discuss an issue with civility then take a break from the thread. 

Time and again, you have failed to discuss with civility.

It’s not very much to ask.

Try it.

There are posters on here who have used their posts to insult the intelligence of people who have challenged them. Yorky may have been more civil, but I don't think this behaviour should go unnoticed either. Then again, as someone who has gone well past that line recently, I'll say that cloaked insults does not constitute civility either.

[Asam]

Defending itself from invading Arab countries and terrorist organisations?

People need to get their heads around the fact that Israel will always be a Jewish nation and they will implement laws to solidify this fact that to Western eyes can appear unequal and oppressive to its minority populations.

I would compare the Jewish situation to other middle east minorities who have failed to create nation states for themselves, such as the Kurds or Yazidis. The lesson is clear, the Israelies are in a much better situation than the other minorities in the Muslim countries so never allow yourself to be a minority in a Muslim country, things tend to go badly.

Israeli gangs were ransacking Palestine for two years before Israel was created, at Deir Yassine the Israeli settler gangs literally executed thousands of Palestinians BEFORE Israel was even created

Please don’t embarrass yourself any further, educate yourself

[classycarra]

Please don’t embarrass yourself any further, educate yourself

Doesn't seem the most compatible viewpoint (especially to be acting holier than thou about), when you just suggested that it beggars belief that people want to consider Hamas and explore further than just looking at one side:

It beggars beliefs that people are frankly stupid enough to concern themselves about what Hamas might or could do