Topic: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)

[Sangria]

It sounds to me like he's an Israeli. I doubt vey much you'd go around telling a British citizen of Asian extraction from Southall or Huddersfield that "I question your Britishness.  To me you're an Indian through and through." I hope not anyway.

I find the antiquity/heritage argument boring and irrelevant. Who can trace their lineage back to this sandy piece of desert, or this snow-topped mountain? Who cares?

The fact is Israel exists now, and has done since 1948. Like any other state the government of Israel has a right to formulate its own immigration and citizenship laws. That they do so iniquitously is par for the course, for practically every country in the world. We have done the same. We took the citizenship away from British subjects in 1962 when we put the first immigration bill onto the  statute book, and we continued to allow non-British immigrants to flood in from the Republic of Ireland. It was racist. It was humiliating. We stripped Ugandan Asians of their UK citizenship rights too in the 1970s.

To the earlier question 'Who cares?', you may say, well, the Israelis do. And clearly the ancient connection with Israel is, or was, important to the Zionist idea. As it was to Jews. Not a year went by in the centuries of exile that Jews didn't feast and say 'Next Year Jerusalem'. We are not talking about the Iceni here, or the Etruscans. But ultimately this whole question is a red herring.

I wouldn't question their Israeliness, but for their readiness to deny the Palestinians the right to live there which they themselves took advantage of. That's hypocrisy right there. And then they deny the Palestinians any intrinsic identity by saying that the movement and thus identity did not exist prior to the creation of Israel. And on top of that, they deny the Palestinians a share of the country by saying that there are 40+ Muslim countries, 15 Christian countries, and only one Jewish country, with the implication that they should bugger off to one of these many Muslim countries rather than stay there and bother the one Jewish country. You want to accuse me of implied racism, but that's BNP level racism right there.

The argument about post-war Israel and the persecution of Jews does not apply to this person, whose family by their own admission has been in the UK for the past 4 centuries. That doesn't preclude them from migrating there of course. But to migrate there, and then to spout these anti-Palestinian tropes? Surely the least I should be allowed to do is to point out the hypocrisy of their position.

[John C]

To dance boldly back to the part of the discussion about whether being Jewish was a religious or racial state of affairs, consider this.

Apparently Jews marrying non Jews is not well thought of by, well Jews. Now, if this is because being Jewish is a religious thing, I personally think that’s insane but insane goes with the religious territory. If, however, being Jewish is a race thing then frowning on people marrying outside your own racial group is pretty fucking racist.

Flippin hec, where does an atheist Jew fit in there Corky mate?

[Corkboy]

This seems to capture the flavour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group

[Yorkykopite]

I wouldn't question their Israeliness.

But you did:

I questioned your Israeliness. To me, you're a Brit through and through.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Flippin hec, where does an atheist Jew fit in there Corky mate?

Would simply be an Israeli,no ?

[Zeb]

Seems daft that they split it into different bits. Why not just partition equally down the middle (I'm sure there will be plenty of real reasons, please do enlighten me). But that present day land map is mental.

It reflects where people were living. The aim was to put as many of the Jewish community in Palestine into the new Jewish state without anyone being displaced to the degree which was being seen in Europe at the time (eg East Prussia and so on) and to provide areas without significant population for Jewish immigrants to be able to settle. So you get the weird crescent of where there was significant Jewish land holdings running from the NE to the coast, down, and then round into the Negev desert and south to Eilat and access to the Red Sea.

[Jebediah]

But why are the Israeli police even in the Al-Asqa compound? They come into the compound, they start a riot with worshipers, and then beat and arrest people.

Once again, it boggles my mind that someone can come on this board and post some vitriol without doing even a second of research. You really sound like a Hamas spokesperson.

Israel has done everything it can to ease the tensions on the Temple Mount. This includes banning Jewish visitors from the site entirely (Jews haven't been able to pray there throughout Israel's control of the site). Yes, as crazy as it sounds, Israel guarantees freedom of religious practice for all religions in Jerusalem, except for Jews. In return, the Palestinians deny that Judaism has any connection to the site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_denial), summarily destroy archaeological evidence (https://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp483.htm), and, increasingly in the last few weeks, use the site to incite and start violent riots against Jews

I would be extremely irritated if police entered the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and started pushing people around.

Ironically, of the hundreds of Arab Christians in Israel that i know, not a single one would like to live in a future Palestinian state, as they understand well that Islamic fundamentalism doesn't have a good record when it comes to preserving Christian holy sites and allowing Christians freedom of worship. In the Palestinian West Bank, Christians are persecuted; in Gaza, they are slaughtered; in Israel they are thriving.

[Jebediah]

Do I understand right that this is an accurate image of Palestine pre-war, then the UN made Israel in 1947 as a present to the jews so they had somewhere to call home after the horrors of the holocaust?

In short, no you don't understand right.

Let's not reduce the conflict to an inaccurate meme.

Very quickly:

Picture 1 - There was no 'Palestine' in 1947. The country was controlled by the British and before them the Ottomans. Most of the land you see in the picture was owned by absentee Arab Land Owners.
Picture 2 - The Un Partition Plan of 1947, which allowed for the establishment of Both a Jewish and an Arab State, was accepted by the Jews, and rejected by the Arabs. The Arabs then launched a war of annihilation against the Jews. Thankfully, we weren't all killed (1% of our total population were killed).
Picture 3 - Again, still no Palestine. Between 1948 and 1967, Egypt occupied the Gaza Strip, whilst Jordan occupied the West Bank.
Picture 4 - why is it only now called occupied land?

As for your assertion that Israel was established as a present to the Jews after the Holocaust -- not true. The Jews were already well on the way to having built a state before the Holocaust, and the countries that voted for the Partition Plan in 1947 did so not out of guit but out of their own varied political considerations.

[The North Bank]

There is one way for instant return for all Palestinians, instant land, instant rights.
.... that is to convert to Judaism.
 
In other parts of the world, that would be seen as the height of racism and bigotry.

[Yorkykopite]

In short, no you don't understand right.

Let's not reduce the conflict to an inaccurate meme.

Very quickly:

Picture 1 - There was no 'Palestine' in 1947. The country was controlled by the British and before them the Ottomans. Most of the land you see in the picture was owned by absentee Arab Land Owners.
Picture 2 - The Un Partition Plan of 1947, which allowed for the establishment of Both a Jewish and an Arab State, was accepted by the Jews, and rejected by the Arabs. The Arabs then launched a war of annihilation against the Jews. Thankfully, we weren't all killed (1% of our total population were killed).
Picture 3 - Again, still no Palestine. Between 1948 and 1967, Egypt occupied the Gaza Strip, whilst Jordan occupied the West Bank.
Picture 4 - why is it only now called occupied land?

As for your assertion that Israel was established as a present to the Jews after the Holocaust -- not true. The Jews were already well on the way to having built a state before the Holocaust, and the countries that voted for the Partition Plan in 1947 did so not out of guit but out of their own varied political considerations.

I think that's a fair summary, though the fact we call the West Bank "occupied" now and we didn't when Jordan occupied it after 1948 is of academic interest only. In both cases Palestinian land is being occupied.

The highlighted sentence gets my goat a bit too. The potential for ignorance about the Middle East is enormous and memes and graphs which reduce all its moral and political complexity to a solitary but seductive lie are available everywhere for those who want "knowledge" to back up their prejudice without exerting any effort.

Once more I recommend Benny Morris, Righteous Victims for anyone who is genuinely curious about the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/117388/righteous-victims-by-benny-morris/

Benny Morris is the historian who disabused his own country (Israel) about the myths they told themselves about the 1948 war. His book 'The Birth of the Palestine Refugee Problem', based on years of research into the Israeli state and army archives, is a monumental work of scholarship on 'the Nakba'. He also wrote '1948' which attempts the same scrutiny of those Arab powers and Arab armies which invaded Palestine/Israel on either side of the establishment of the state of Israel is also a mine of information (though less rigorous since Arab archives are open to no researcher, Jew or Arab). 'Righteous Victim' is broader and demands less specialist knowledge than either book, but is written with the same open mind and command of the history of a genuine scholar. It's worth the effort.

Or stick to memes, learn nothing, and look stupid! 

[Yorkykopite]

There is one way for instant return for all Palestinians, instant land, instant rights.
.... that is to convert to Judaism.
 
In other parts of the world, that would be seen as the height of racism and bigotry.

I believe it's quite difficult to convert to Judaism. Of the three great monotheisms it is the one that has never sought to evangelise, convert, or build empires in order to turn 'heathen' peoples into Jews. Obviously, in contrast, Christianity and Islam have a brilliant (or lousy) record of doing just that. Most Christians and Muslims today are descendants of conquered people who used to believe something else.   So I don't think your suggestion is feasible.

Plus I very much doubt that most Muslims wish to become Jews. Hamas certainly don't! They seem, according to their literature, to believe that the Jew is a type of pig or monkey.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

There is one way for instant return for all Palestinians, instant land, instant rights.
.... that is to convert to Judaism.
 
In other parts of the world, that would be seen as the height of racism and bigotry.

Fuck that,they force you to get your cock cut.

Converting to Judaism
Converting to Judaism is not easy. It involves many lifestyle changes and about a year of studying.

Becoming a Jew is not just a religious change: the convert not only accepts the Jewish faith, but becomes a member of the Jewish People and embraces Jewish culture and history.

Conversion and Jewish law
Conversion to Judaism is a process governed by Jewish religious law. Conversions are overseen by a religious court, which must be convinced that the convert:

is sincere
is converting for the right reasons
is converting of their own free will
has a thorough knowledge of Jewish faith and practices
will live an observant Jewish life
There are also two ritual requirements:

a male convert must undergo circumcision - if they are already circumcised, a single drop of blood is drawn as a symbolic circumcision
the convert must undergo immersion in a Jewish ritual bath, a mikveh, with appropriate prayers
Judaism and conversion
Judaism is not a missionary faith and so doesn't actively try to convert people (in many countries anti-Jewish laws prohibited this for centuries).

Despite this, the modern Jewish community increasingly welcomes would-be converts.

A person who converts to Judaism becomes a Jew in every sense of the word, and is just as Jewish as someone born into Judaism. There is a good precedent for this; Ruth, the great-great grandmother of King David, was a convert.

Note: Not all Jewish conversions are accepted by all Jews. The more Orthodox a community is the less likely it is to accept a conversion done in a more liberal movement.

[Yorkykopite]

Fuck that,they force you to get your cock cut.

I didn't realise that you were Palestinian. But unless you're a Christian Palestinian it shouldn't be a problem for you.

[FlashGordon]

Atheists and non religious people have killed plenty so not a very coherent point you are making

They didn't kill them in the name of some made up fairy in the sky though.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I didn't realise that you were Palestinian. But unless you're a Christian Palestinian it shouldn't be a problem for you.

You're a funny guy.

Not at all difficult to convert though is it Walter.

[Yorkykopite]

You're a funny guy.

Not at all difficult to convert though is it Walter.

I can't see you doing "a year of studying."

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I can't see you doing "a year of studying."

If I was getting bombed I probably would,especially if it meant I'd be able to keep my home.(would have my fingers and toes crossed though)

It's a shame that the Palestinian people aren't Chinese,if they were then they'd have your support.

[Yorkykopite]

You're doing it again. I posted the photo I'd seen and asked "is this accurate" and "have I understood this right".

You've ended your well thought out post with a dig how I looked stupid for sharing what you know to be a meme.

I wasn't thinking of you Jake. It's simply that I have seen that particular meme posted a hundred times over the years. And that's only on RAWK. Yesterday I noticed it being carried in banners and placards in Washington. To my mind it does make people look stupid.

[Yorkykopite]

It's a shame that the Palestinian people aren't Chinese,if they were then they'd have your support.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

I support the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state already.

And I detest what the Chinese regime is doing.

[Mimi]

Once again, it boggles my mind that someone can come on this board and post some vitriol without doing even a second of research. You really sound like a Hamas spokesperson.

Hmmm, you seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar there, bud. Initially when I read your posts, particularly the bits related to the Palestinians, I had a lot of respect for your views. You seemed somewhat knowledgeable. It’s only when I started reading actual Palestinians that I realized you were chatting a lot of shit. If you want the actual Palestinian perspective, read the Palestinians!

Israel has done everything it can to ease the tensions on the Temple Mount. This includes banning Jewish visitors from the site entirely (Jews haven't been able to pray there throughout Israel's control of the site).  Yes, as crazy as it sounds, Israel guarantees freedom of religious practice for all religions in Jerusalem, except for Jews.

Israel is the occupying force, Jebediah. Maybe if Israel let up a bit and treated the Palestinians as equals, they would be comfortable letting you in. It was such a gift to visit Jerusalem (a right cruelly denied to many Palestinians who live there) but it always felt wrong to see the heavily armed Israeli police people patrol the city, particularly near the religious sites.

increasingly in the last few weeks, use the site to incite and start violent riots against Jews

Again lies. Protests are not riots. On the day of the general strike, the police used the Skunk (which you downplayed in an earlier post) against Palestinians gathered at the Damascus Gate. If Palestinians standing together is considered a riot, then god help them. Also Palestinians are not one hive mind. The day of the ceasefire, the imam preaching at Al-Aqsa was from the PA/Fatah, who many hate as much as they hate the Israeli government. Some see the PA as an extension of the Israeli state. So they made their displeasure known by shouting over him, and then Israeli police swarmed the compound. Many also dislike Hamas, but Hamas seems to be a many headed beast with different wings playing different roles.

Ironically, of the hundreds of Arab Christians in Israel that i know, not a single one would like to live in a future Palestinian state, as they understand well that Islamic fundamentalism doesn't have a good record when it comes to preserving Christian holy sites and allowing Christians freedom of worship.

You know hundreds? Amazing. There are not too many left because of the actions of the Israeli government. The only original Christians left in the Holy Land are Palestinians, and they are subjected to the same second class treatment as the rest of the Palestinians. Here is a statement from the Latin Patriarchate denouncing the actions to prevent Muslim worshippers from accessing Al Aqsa during Ramadan and the ongoing situation in Sheikh Jarrah: https://www.lpj.org/posts/latin-patriarchate-reacts-to-recent-violence-in-jerusalem.html?s_cat=1102

In the Palestinian West Bank, Christians are persecuted; in Gaza, they are slaughtered; in Israel they are thriving.

Again, bullshit. There is a Catholic Church is Gaza, and many Christian organizations run relief missions in Gaza and the West Bank. If by thriving you mean not subject to military slaughter and economic depression by the Israelis, then I would agree with you.

You may be speaking the truth about the Israeli perspective, but your posts on the Palestinians show you really do not understand them at all. I’m willing to attribute your vitriol against them as lack of knowledge rather than a racial animus.

[TepidT2O]

You really sound like a Hamas spokesperson.

Hmmm, you seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar there, bud.

These types of comments negate the rest of anything posted.


This isn’t a playground

[Yorkykopite]

You know hundreds? Amazing. There are not too many left because of the actions of the Israeli government. The only original Christians left in the Holy Land are Palestinians, and they are subjected to the same second class treatment as the rest of the Palestinians.

There are some 170,000 Arab Christians in Israel. I suspect that population has increased a lot since 1948, but if you have any information which suggests the opposite I hope you'll share it.

I'm not certain what you mean by "original Christians" and what is meant by "Palestinians" in that context. But I would think that the political, civil and religious rights of Christians are more secure in Israel than they are in any of the surrounding Arab/Muslim countries. Certainly the Coptic Christian community in Egypt lives a precarious life, subject to official discrimination and periodic violence.   

[Wild Romany Boy]

There are some 170,000 Arab Christians in Israel. I suspect that population has increased a lot since 1948, but if you have any information which suggests the opposite I hope you'll share it.

I'm not certain what you mean by "original Christians" and what is meant by "Palestinians" in that context. But I would think that the political, civil and religious rights of Christians are more secure in Israel than they are in any of the surrounding Arab/Muslim countries. Certainly the Coptic Christian community in Egypt lives a precarious life, subject to official discrimination and periodic violence.

Yorky, may I ask a question? How have you amassed this much knowledge of middle eastern politics?

Now I disagree with you profoundly about certain things, but you clearly have a lot of detail around the middle east. Now, I might also agree with your interpretation of that detail, and how you use that knowledge, from time to time, but I couldn't even begin to get on the level you even currently hold. What's your experience of it?

[Commie Bobbie]

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1396129834825404416

(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
OK, I'm going to ask this again. When are we going to start  treating the racism of the pro-Palestinian campaign groups in the same way we would treat the racism of organisations like the EDL and the BNP.

This sort of thing does not help matters at all.

Yes, there is absolutely an element of racism involved, but to portray pro-Palestinian protesters in the same light as the E*L or the B*P is unwise - and arguably dangerous.

Especially, when the columnist is a writer for the paper that gave the world "Hooray For The Blackshirts".

Just what is it that's wrong in the eyes of the (I hate this term) Mainstream Media, that people want a equal Palestinian state. Heaven sake, up until Trump got his cancerous fingers into the Oval Office it was pretty much Western policy.

[Zeb]

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1396129834825404416

This sort of thing does not help matters at all.

Yes, there is absolutely an element of racism involved, but to portray pro-Palestinian protesters in the same light as the E*L or the B*P is unwise - and arguably dangerous.

Especially, when the columnist is a writer for the paper that gave the world "Hooray For The Blackshirts".

Just what is it that's wrong in the eyes of the (I hate this term) Mainstream Media, that people want a equal Palestinian state. Heaven sake, up until Trump got his cancerous fingers into the Oval Office it was pretty much Western policy.

I posted an article by Keith Kahn Harris which covered the problem with a disparate crowd of people gathering under a simplistic banner which means all sorts to all kinds. You may want it all to mean people wanting an equal Palestinian state but that's not the message from parts of those attending. Hodges is wrong in terms of how many see themselves, but is right in terms of boundaries not being there and so the perception can easily be very different to the one you think is being presented. You wouldn't turn up to an EDL march. You would make clear distance if they turned up with their placards and slogan to a march or demo you arranged. The boundaries are policed there. Looking at Manchester today, and London, not so much in evidence if at all.

[Sangria]

I posted an article by Keith Kahn Harris which covered the problem with a disparate crowd of people gathering under a simplistic banner which means all sorts to all kinds. You may want it all to mean people wanting an equal Palestinian state but that's not the message from parts of those attending. Hodges is wrong in terms of how many see themselves, but is right in terms of boundaries not being there and so the perception can easily be very different to the one you think is being presented. You wouldn't turn up to an EDL march. You would make clear distance if they turned up with their placards and slogan to a march or demo you arranged. The boundaries are policed there. Looking at Manchester today, and London, not so much in evidence if at all.

The only demos in London I can see in the news is pro-Palestine. Has there been trouble?

[Zeb]

The only demos in London I can see in the news is pro-Palestine. Has there been trouble?

Just the usual anti-semitic tropes being on display. What I mean by boundaries being policed. If we can do it with flags and banners on the Kop, should shit like this be part of a 'Pro-Palestine' movement? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1_-ji4XMAYFjDD.jpg

[Wild Romany Boy]

Just the usual anti-semitic tropes being on display. What I mean by boundaries being policed. If we can do it with flags and banners on the Kop, should shit like this be part of a 'Pro-Palestine' movement? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1_-ji4XMAYFjDD.jpg

Absolutely not acceptable and, yes, it should be policed.

But the EDL has a racist philosophy at its core, the BNP has a racist aim at its core, this is not, in my opinion, the core of the 'Pro-Palestine' movement.

Police it and get it out, I don't want to see those images ever, ever, ever. Hodges, though, is being a bad faith actor, and he knows it.

[Zeb]

Absolutely not acceptable and, yes, it should be policed.

But the EDL has a racist philosophy at its core, the BNP has a racist aim at its core, this is not, in my opinion, the core of the 'Pro-Palestine' movement.

Police it and get it out, I don't want to see those images ever, ever, ever. Hodges, though, is being a bad faith actor, and he knows it.

He's being a shitstirrer as normal, aye, but calls for pickets against companies founded by British Jews because "they're Israeli embassies on the High Street" from the man with the loudhailer isn't a problem just on the fringes either. It does shape the perception when the 'we'd like two democratic states living peacefully next to each other' becomes something quite different. Big blindspot on parts of the left. Don't think Hodges will be much use with helping with it though. D: This is the Kahn Harris piece I mentioned: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/20/pro-palestine-movement-antisemitism-london

[Sangria]

Absolutely not acceptable and, yes, it should be policed.

But the EDL has a racist philosophy at its core, the BNP has a racist aim at its core, this is not, in my opinion, the core of the 'Pro-Palestine' movement.

Police it and get it out, I don't want to see those images ever, ever, ever. Hodges, though, is being a bad faith actor, and he knows it.

The pro-Palestinian movements are rife with that kind of thing in some sections though, especially among Muslims (read some forums based on Muslim countries and you'll see). That's why while I see hypocrisy in what Israel does, I find pro-Palestinian movements repugnant.

[24/7]

These types of comments negate the rest of anything posted.


This isn’t a playground

Agreed. Pack it in people or it's getting locked again. Last game of the season tomorrow, focus.

There are plenty of other sites on which people can throw around lazy insults or wind up.

[TepidT2O]

Agreed. Pack it in people or it's getting locked again. Last game of the season tomorrow, focus.

There are plenty of other sites on which people can throw around lazy insults or wind up.

Cheap pop at GOT there I see

[TepidT2O]

Difficult to get involved in any meaningful protest against the Israeli government when the descend in to antisemitism and often violence like this..


https://twitter.com/paulbrown_uk/status/1396163359121317891?s=21

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Yorky, may I ask a question? How have you amassed this much knowledge of middle eastern politics?

Now I disagree with you profoundly about certain things, but you clearly have a lot of detail around the middle east. Now, I might also agree with your interpretation of that detail, and how you use that knowledge, from time to time, but I couldn't even begin to get on the level you even currently hold. What's your experience of it?

Do not take anything anybody says on the interweb on face value,people often don't do any of their own research if they find something that conforms to their world view.

Just see an earlier claim that it's quite difficult to convert to Judaism,there are many more examples.

[TepidT2O]

Do not take anything Yorky  (or anybody says on the interweb to be honest) says on face value,he doesn't do any of his own research if he finds something that conforms to his world view.

Just see his earlier claim that it's quite difficult to convert to Judaism,there are many more examples.

Making personal attacks on other posters seldom raises the level of debate.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Difficult to get involved in any meaningful protest against the Israeli government when the descend in to antisemitism and often violence like this..


https://twitter.com/paulbrown_uk/status/1396163359121317891?s=21

We're a shitty species mate,you only have to look at all the Asian racism since covid,people can be morons but nothing brings them out like the "safety" of a crowd.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Making personal attacks on other posters seldom raises the level of debate.

Oh come on now,that is not a personal attack,not even close,it is good advice.


You want to see a few of those then go through his timeline.

[TepidT2O]

Oh come on now,that is not a personal attack,not even close,it is good advice.


You want to see a few of those then go through his timeline.

He did it first isn’t a great excuse either.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

He did it first isn’t a great excuse either.

It was not an excuse though was it ffs.

[TepidT2O]

It was not an excuse though was it ffs.

So why mention it?