Author Topic: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15  (Read 250492 times)

Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #120 on: September 21, 2014, 06:33:06 pm »
Today's defeat at Leicester puts Manchester United on -10 in the APLT.

I've mentioned before how they have been given a very easy start to the season, with a incredible run of nine consecutive par 3 games, comfortably the longest such run of any team in the APLT. If we look at little closer at this run of fixtures, it gets even worse.

Swansea (h)
Sunderland (a)
Burnley (a)
QPR (h)
Leicester (a)

Are the games they have played so far.

Swansea are a good side, and the reverse fixture is a Par 1. The APLT insists on victory in nearly all home games though, and good as they are, the Swans are not a team you would expect to be competing with the big 7 come the end of the year. Losing this game is a very poor result, a 3 point drop.

A visit to Sunderland was a par 1 result in 2012-13, but a lot has changed since then and the draw can only be seen as a disappointment for a team with pretentions to a top four place.

Newly promoted sides are automatically Par 3 games, and usually this is justified by their final league positions at the end of the season. Burnley have only 3 points on the table after 5 games, and 1 of them came from the visit of the once mighty Manchester United.

By an odd coincidence, United's next fixture was also a newly promoted side, and the 3 points were duly collected at home against QPR.

By an even more odd coincidence, and frankly this is getting deeply suspicious, the third of the new boys, Leicester, rounded off the early fixtures. This time United slipped up again, and found themselves on the end of a five goal annihilation, having been 3-1 ahead at one point.

It doesn't matter what order you play your games in in principle, you need to go out and win them whenever you play, but there are serious consequences in the APLT for failing to capitalise on such an incredible gift from the fixture committee.

-10 after just five games is an exceptionally poor return for anyone in the APLT. Looking back over the last few seasons, it stands out just how bad this looks.



In 11-12, the first team to drop below the 10 point line were Newcastle United. It took them until match 15 to do it, and eventually they ended the season on 65 points, in 5th place.



In 12-13, Liverpool were the first to fall below the 10 point mark. It happened after match 10, and the reds eventually ended the season on 61 pts, which was 7th in the table.



Last season, it was Tottenham who had the dubious honour of being first through the ten point trap door. They held out until match 12, and eventually finished the season on 69 pts, in 6th place.

For Manchester United to have already sunk this low is really astonishing, and something that the real table doesn't emphasise at all. They are already as far off the pace as we were after twice as many games when we ultimately finished 7th!

So can we count them out entirely? Should they be expunged from the APLT?

Before we get too carried away and start trying to take attention away from our own poor results recently, maybe we need to look at this the other way around. United still have all 12 of their par 1 matches to play. While those fixtures are more difficult, they also represent a chance for them to make points up. Winning just five of those twleve games puts them right back on target to win the league. And they are bound to improve on the pitch at some point, right?

Also, the fact that they have played no Par 1 games, means that every draw or loss so far has had maximum impact on their APLT total. Liverpool's loss to West Ham yesterday, while a bad result, only cost the reds a single APLT point. In fact, even if Liverpool had lost every game so far, we'd only be on -9. In the final analysis, it doesn't matter where your points come from to actually win the league, but the APLT model represents a way to do it by winning games that should be easier.

The trouble for them is that they still need to play another four Par 3 games before they can possibly put themselves in a better position. They need to beat West Ham, Everton and Chelsea at home and West Brom away just to stay on -10. And if they somehow manage that, their big chance to get back to -8 comes at the Etihad.

Come the end of the season, they will really need to be flying.  Their run in is a gauntlet that would concern anybody. (Par 1 games in bold.)

Spurs (h) Liverpool (a) Villa (h) Man City (h) Chelsea (a) Everton (a) West Brom (h) Palace (a) Arsenal (h) Hull (a)

Now I don't know about you, but I'd want a LOT of points on the board already before going on a run like that.
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Offline Mr_Shane

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #121 on: September 21, 2014, 08:52:58 pm »
Its still possible to do it, but they need to win 5 of the away games against the top 12 sides away from home.

However, it would be reasonable to say, that the title challenge is gone. They are not winning it bar the above happening plus a massive drop in form from Chelsea and a slight drop in form from all the teams above them on the ALPT

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #122 on: September 21, 2014, 09:37:58 pm »




Only Chelsea are currently performing as a top four team from the featured teams.  We aren't the only ones who have had bad results so far, and in actual fact, a loss away at West Ham isn't actually a disaster.  Losing at home to Villa was by far more damaging.

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #123 on: September 21, 2014, 11:24:46 pm »




Only Chelsea are currently performing as a top four team from the featured teams.  We aren't the only ones who have had bad results so far, and in actual fact, a loss away at West Ham isn't actually a disaster.  Losing at home to Villa was by far more damaging.
Not bad at all. When you remember that the season isn't even 20% done, it puts things into perspective. There's time to sort things out!

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #124 on: September 22, 2014, 11:07:57 am »
This is by far one of the best threads on the net. Takes a long term view of the league and factors in many variables. I was very surprised at how accurate it was at the end of last season!
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #125 on: September 22, 2014, 11:20:44 am »
This is the only table I feel like looking at at this point...

We're looking ok, good to see we remain above Arsenal, who have Spurs at home and Chelsea away in their next 2 games. However if we won all 6 of our next games we could only get back to -1, and those 6 matches feature Chelsea and Everton at home as Par 3s, along with Newcastle away where we only drew last year, and Hull who we managed to lose to, albeit away while we'll be at home. We really have to get up to speed now. Getting Sturridge back I think will be key, allowing us to play the diamond with 2 top strikers.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #126 on: September 22, 2014, 11:37:23 am »
Not bad at all. When you remember that the season isn't even 20% done, it puts things into perspective. There's time to sort things out!

I'm a lot more concerned about the performances than the results at this point. Something has to change.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #127 on: September 22, 2014, 12:36:52 pm »
Here's the form band for game week 5...
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 01:43:54 pm by I-was-there »
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Offline RooiBefok

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #128 on: September 22, 2014, 12:49:17 pm »
Here's the form band for game week 5...

We lost 1-3 to West Ham Mate, not 1-2.  Total Goals Against are 8, not 7.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #129 on: September 22, 2014, 01:44:44 pm »
We lost 1-3 to West Ham Mate, not 1-2.  Total Goals Against are 8, not 7.

I've sorted it  now..
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Offline Kochevnik

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #130 on: September 22, 2014, 05:07:19 pm »
Interesting, to look at that it's obviously early but it suggests that 68 or 69 points might eventually be enough for top 4, with none of the contenders really dominant at this stage.

Also suggests that perhaps the statistical models which (seemingly against reality) suggest that Southampton might have as much as a 15 or even 20% chance at top 4 at this stage are not that far off after all - you could certainly see them getting 65 points in the end which might bring them very close if things continue the way they are.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #131 on: September 22, 2014, 05:18:11 pm »
Interesting, to look at that it's obviously early but it suggests that 68 or 69 points might eventually be enough for top 4, with none of the contenders really dominant at this stage.

Also suggests that perhaps the statistical models which (seemingly against reality) suggest that Southampton might have as much as a 15 or even 20% chance at top 4 at this stage are not that far off after all - you could certainly see them getting 65 points in the end which might bring them very close if things continue the way they are.

69 Points for top 4 would be funny. Considering last year 4th place needed 79 points... The "minnows" are strenghtening more and more!
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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #132 on: September 22, 2014, 05:31:49 pm »
Yes the APLT gives some respite. It feels like we've thrown it all away - a natural emotional reaction to our current struggles - but we'll find our feet.

Chelsea is looking good this year.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #133 on: September 22, 2014, 05:51:28 pm »
69 Points for top 4 would be funny. Considering last year 4th place needed 79 points... The "minnows" are strenghtening more and more!

That may not be far off the mark.

The average over the past 10 seasons is 70pts and it's only been above that 4 times in the past 10 years [79 in 2014, 76 in 2008, 73 in 2013 & 72 in 2009].


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Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #134 on: September 22, 2014, 06:09:48 pm »
That may not be far off the mark.

The average over the past 10 seasons is 70pts and it's only been above that 4 times in the past 10 years [79 in 2014, 76 in 2008, 73 in 2013 & 72 in 2009].

4 out of 10 is a pretty large deviation, though.

Too early to call that one, I'd expect it to remain around +/-5 of the 70 point mark again.
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Offline I-was-watching-it-on-Sky

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #135 on: September 22, 2014, 09:46:09 pm »
4 out of 10 is a pretty large deviation, though.

Too early to call that one, I'd expect it to remain around +/-5 of the 70 point mark again.

I understand the point you're making, but if we were to consider it could be anywhere from 66 to 75pts [which I'm convinced it will be] then that covers 6 of the ten points totals in the last ten years [for 4th place].

I wasn't trying to 'call it' as such, just agreeing that the 69pts suggestion was about the right estimation for 4th place.

If your remember early last season, people were saying it was shaping up to be an exceptional season and the early evidence didn't support that, and the final numbers were all pretty much within the normal range [by that I mean the actual results averages over the last ten seasons], but it didn't stop people getting carried away.

The original post I responded to was suggesting [I took it to mean 'in effect'] that this season is actually going to be pretty average [if we accept that 4th place will be within a bawe hair of 69pts] and I don't see any reason so far to disbelieve that [I believe the averages are the averages for a reason].

The only caveat [spilling] I'd put on that is that I'm pretty sure the final points totals will be slightly lower [by about 2-3pts per place for the top 5-6 sides/ places] because it's a post World Cup season.

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Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #136 on: September 22, 2014, 11:02:09 pm »
I understand the point you're making, but if we were to consider it could be anywhere from 66 to 75pts [which I'm convinced it will be] then that covers 6 of the ten points totals in the last ten years [for 4th place].

I wasn't trying to 'call it' as such, just agreeing that the 69pts suggestion was about the right estimation for 4th place.

If your remember early last season, people were saying it was shaping up to be an exceptional season and the early evidence didn't support that, and the final numbers were all pretty much within the normal range [by that I mean the actual results averages over the last ten seasons], but it didn't stop people getting carried away.

The original post I responded to was suggesting [I took it to mean 'in effect'] that this season is actually going to be pretty average [if we accept that 4th place will be within a bawe hair of 69pts] and I don't see any reason so far to disbelieve that [I believe the averages are the averages for a reason].

The only caveat [spilling] I'd put on that is that I'm pretty sure the final points totals will be slightly lower [by about 2-3pts per place for the top 5-6 sides/ places] because it's a post World Cup season.

I see. That makes sense.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #137 on: September 27, 2014, 04:02:06 pm »
Another 2 points dropped. Top four looking more difficult now.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #138 on: September 27, 2014, 04:17:23 pm »
Minus 5 on APLT after 6 games given our poor start is not bad. However we need to start getting results soon or the season will start slipping away.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #139 on: September 28, 2014, 10:04:05 pm »



Offline joe ®

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #140 on: September 29, 2014, 01:23:38 pm »
So I guess we're not in too bad a position just yet. We're sort of being saved by everyone else's inconsistencies too.

That trend line since the last game with Sturridge, though? That is horrible.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #141 on: September 29, 2014, 01:56:02 pm »
Table looking good for my prediction of Chelsea pissing the league. Though it is early days. Chelsea will play a big part in our rivals for fourth places positions after the next run of three games, and while we cannot choose results, I guess after our early haphazard start it might be best for us for Chelsea to take points off Man United (by drawing or beating them) and off Arsenal (by beating them only).

We really need to get a couple of wins together and this table agrees, as all of our next three games are par 3 matches. Our position on this table isn't so bad at the moment, but anything other than 9 points should see a furhter  slip.

Liverpool: West Brom Home, QPR Away, Hull Home - Par = 9 points.

The next three games are also crucial for our fourth place rivals Manchester United after losing so many points to par already at this point as they also have three par 3 games which they may find difficult to get 9 points from as form team Chelsea come to Old Trafford and make just be happy to take a point.

Man U: Everton Home, West Brom Away, Chelsea Home - Par = 9 points.

Tottenham costing Arsenal two points on the APLT could be really beneficial for us.  Arsenal have a chance to gain in the next three, but it's against those pesky Chelsea away.

Arsenal: Chelsea Away, Hull Home, Sunderland Away - Par = 7 points.

I'm not analyst, but I think we've got away with a couple of bad results so far, we could do with taking the next three to par. Two home games (and we're at home after the CL game) and an away game againt a team already in the relegation zone.
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Offline I-was-watching-it-on-Sky

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #142 on: September 30, 2014, 12:48:53 pm »
Another 2 points dropped. Top four looking more difficult now.

Isn't that a bit of an over reaction at this point?

You can easily see that according to the APL table we're currently in third place and not wildly adrift.

In fact, the results comparison thread currently predicts us to finish 3rd on 81-82pts.

I think another 2, possibly 3 results along the same lines as we've had so far and we'll have left ourselves too much to do to win it but at this stage there's no reason to believe we can't get a top-4 spot.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 12:54:06 pm by I-was-there »
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Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #143 on: September 30, 2014, 02:13:01 pm »
Isn't that a bit of an over reaction at this point?

You can easily see that according to the APL table we're currently in third place and not wildly adrift.

In fact, the results comparison thread currently predicts us to finish 3rd on 81-82pts.

I think another 2, possibly 3 results along the same lines as we've had so far and we'll have left ourselves too much to do to win it but at this stage there's no reason to believe we can't get a top-4 spot.
I don't know what the original poster meant, but it's certainly true top 4 looks more difficult. 5-7 points out of three very winnable games and we'd be out ahead of the pack; instead we're chasing. I'd still back us to get in the top 4, but we've made it much harder on ourselves.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #144 on: September 30, 2014, 06:42:08 pm »
Isn't that a bit of an over reaction at this point?

You can easily see that according to the APL table we're currently in third place and not wildly adrift.

In fact, the results comparison thread currently predicts us to finish 3rd on 81-82pts.

I think another 2, possibly 3 results along the same lines as we've had so far and we'll have left ourselves too much to do to win it but at this stage there's no reason to believe we can't get a top-4 spot.

Sorry, poor choice of words really, I simply meant that we dropped points to par on a weekend where most of our rivals didn't meaning our relative position to them got worse. Of course, the APLT still has us 3rd at the moment which shows that we're on course for top four if we can up our performances and play to par for the rest of season.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #145 on: October 2, 2014, 03:13:40 pm »
Cheers Prof, I will post in here for now and see how it goes. As the season progresses and it starts to flesh out, I may start a new topic as things become a bit clearer.

==

Anyway, the logic is all here - https://thisisanalysis.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/a-marathon-not-a-sprint-how-will-next-season-play-out/

In brief I did the following:

- Took a graphic from matchstory.co.uk which factored in match difficulty based on PaddyPower odds
- Allocated a 'expected points' value based on the match difficulty in order to hit 86 points
- I will track actual points V projected points over the season for the five Premier League 'favourites' (Chelsea, Manchester City, Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool)

The post as a lot more detail as to why I chose these numbers based on a retrospective look of last season,.

This is how things look after one week:



I won't do a graph just yet, I will give it a few games for things to flesh out and see how things go :)

You gonna update this mate?
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #146 on: October 2, 2014, 03:15:11 pm »
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #147 on: October 5, 2014, 07:46:26 pm »



Offline topper1978

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #148 on: October 5, 2014, 08:40:10 pm »
The table is looking good we have a small margin for error but really need to find some consistency. I saw on one twitter account a number cruncher a bit like yourself prof who at this moment gives us a 68% chance of coming third (https://twitter.com/MC_of_A/status/518822189114859521) Would take that now to be honest.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #149 on: October 5, 2014, 08:45:30 pm »
Southampton ahead of Spurs, Everton and Utd!  What's his methodology?  The order seems about right, but surprised those three come in below 20%.

We'll need to click obviously but we're getting there.  Elsewhere it's already starting to look like the only question is whether City'll be able to hang onto Chelsea's coat-tails long enough to make a title race.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #151 on: October 5, 2014, 09:01:00 pm »




Thanks again Prof for all the work involved,

looking at all that... we really havent had as poor a start thats been made out in the media. Still plenty of time to get this season back on track! Catching chelsea would be an amazing feat from anyone at this stage

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #152 on: October 5, 2014, 09:03:26 pm »
I read somewhere that we have played 3 teams out of last years top 6, whereas united have only played 1 (everton). So in relation to that the start is not to bad and top 4 is most definitely on.

Still early days, with a lot of work to do.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #153 on: October 5, 2014, 09:07:01 pm »
United have definitely played the easier ties. They have also not played Southampton, lost to Swansea, and this seasons Everton does not look like last seasons Everton

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #154 on: October 5, 2014, 09:09:40 pm »
Chelsea have got two par 1s coming up (Palace and Mancs). The way they're playing I wouldn't be surprised to see them on plus 6 once those games are done and dusted  :o

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #155 on: October 5, 2014, 09:54:03 pm »
After 7 games last season we had 16 points. Now we have 10. The only "big" game we had played last season was Man Utd at home. This season we've already played City away, Spurs away and Everton at home. This international break comes at a good time provided non of our players get injured. Time to push on.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #156 on: October 5, 2014, 10:16:34 pm »
We're below target for top four, but as everyone else (bar Chelsea) have had poor results too, the table doesn't look that bad.

Villa and Everton are the two results which hurt us the most.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #157 on: October 6, 2014, 12:39:32 pm »
The table is looking good we have a small margin for error but really need to find some consistency. I saw on one twitter account a number cruncher a bit like yourself prof who at this moment gives us a 68% chance of coming third (https://twitter.com/MC_of_A/status/518822189114859521) Would take that now to be honest.

There was some discussion of this fella last season. The biggest criticism seemed to be that any single result tended to lead to massive variation in his predictions. Still interesting to have a look.

United have definitely played the easier ties. They have also not played Southampton, lost to Swansea, and this seasons Everton does not look like last seasons Everton

Man Utd's opening run consists of 9 par 3 games.
If they were serious title contenders, you would expect them to be on or around 21 pts by now.
They have 11.

I'm going to have a look at putting together a sort of "swingometer" that can show exactly what everyone now needs to do in order to win the title.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #158 on: October 6, 2014, 01:07:17 pm »
SWINGOMETER:

A quick look at how each team in the APLT can still win the title.
As all teams still have 93 points available, in principle anyone could still win it.
Realistically, it's a lot harder than that.

Using the APLT's basic assumptions - that last season's league position is a reliable indicator of difficulty for an away fixture - I've examined which of their remaining fixtures could provide the easiest "swing" back to title winning form for each side. (Or in Chelsea's case, where they can drop points and still win the league.)

Liverpool
Games remaining: 31
Points available: 93
Par remaining: 75
Points needed: 80

Liverpool need to win 3 par 1 games.
Easiest 3 remaining Par 1 games:
Swansea, Crystal Palace, Newcastle Utd.

Man Utd
Games remaining: 31
Points available: 93
Par remaining: 69
Points needed: 79

Man Utd need to win 5 par 1 games.
Easiest 5 remaining Par 1 games:
West Ham, Swansea, Crystal Palace, Newcastle Utd, Stoke

Chelsea
Games remaining: 31
Points available: 93
Par remaining: 73
Points needed: 71

Chelsea can afford to lose 2 par 1 games.
Hardest remaining Par 1 games:
Liverpool, Arsenal

Man City
Games remaining: 31
Points available: 93
Par remaining: 73
Points needed: 74

Man City need to win 1 Par 1 game.
Easiest remaining Par 1 game:
West Ham

Arsenal
Games remaining: 31
Points available: 93
Par remaining: 73
Points needed: 80

Arsenal need to win 4 Par 1 games.
Easiest 4 remaining Par 1 games:
West Ham, Swansea, Crystal Palace, Newcastle Utd

Spurs
Games remaining: 31
Points available: 93
Par remaining: 73
Points needed: 79

Spurs need to win 3 Par 1 games.
Easiest remaining Par 1 games:
Swansea, Crystal Palace, Newcastle Utd

Everton
Games remaining: 31
Points available: 93
Par remaining: 73
Points needed: 84

Everton need to win 6 Par 1 games.
Easiest 6 remaining Par 1 games:
West Ham, Swansea, Crystal Palace, Newcastle Utd, Stoke City, Southampton
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2014-15
« Reply #159 on: October 6, 2014, 02:04:48 pm »
Essentially Manchester United would have to be faultless from here on out. There is definitely ground to be made up by virtue of the fact that they have only been able to drop, or par so far. Although that has to be counter balanced by the fact that they would still need to win all their homes and lots of big teams could get at least a point.

We're right in the race for fourth at the moment. Man United will come in closer over time and unless Tottenham put a run together, one of Man United/Liverpool/Arsenal will miss out. Would be pretty mental for any one of them, us after getting back in last season would be a killer, Man United two in a row would be crazy, and Arsenal to miss out could see Wenger off as it's never happened before.

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