Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[BrandoLFC]

You're absolutely right - but today there were no other options - both fullbacks were playing conservative for large parts of the game, and so we needed to create openings from other positions. We had 61% possession, so if the fullbacks (our main source of final balls) get jammed up, the midfielders have to pick up the slack, otherwise we're left with launching long balls into the box or hoping for a bit of individual magic - and Firmino wasn't in that kind of form today.

You're right that we should look elsewhere, and in that case, we should probably look at both Mane and Origi, who didn't have a shot on goal between them all game (although Origi had a blocked shot). And while Mane at least tried to create something, Origi contributed nothing impactful to the attack, and spent most of his time doubling up with Robertson or moving the ball for possession.



Almost all of his successful passes and crosses were backwards and short, and none into the box to create danger. It was a waste of an attacker in a big game. Was it tactical, or did he just play that way of his own volition? Only Klopp and he knows. But it unbalanced our attack for sure.


We were essentially playing against 12 players given Atkinson's/VAR's apparent bias, so we really needed to do something more with all of our possession. If our main avenues of attack were being dealt with, we had to find something different to take advantage of the spaces left (either the midfield, or a change of formation to release the fullbacks, or maybe using one of the two central defenders more, bringing the ball into midfield and creating overloads that way). United's plan to defend, defend, and defend again worked well for them. They gave us the ball, and we really didn't know what to do with it. It's a problem we've had before.

I don't think our FB's were playing conservative by choice is the main point.  Ole was in essence copying Wilder's Sheffield tactics with two weeks to work on it with whoever was around.  Most teams aren't going to have that luxury.  With that said we've already seen it work once so to have it work again with no real answer until the last 15 minutes is really disappointing.  If I were Klopp I would certainly expect now every team to try to do this in going forward until we show we have the answers for it.

To then bring this back to the midfield, will it take a change in tactics or personal to then make the offense function when faced with opposition tactics similar to what we faced against ManU and Sheffield? 

As far as Origi, I don't think I'd ever start him in anything but the easiest of away games.  To me he's a poacher and while he can carry the ball up the field he's not amazing at it as he typically over complicates the move when on the ball.  He's just a zero out on the field unless we're dominating and his touches can just be around the box.  But aside from acknowledging his amazing season last year I'm not an Origi fan to begin with so might be a bit biased here.

[El Lobo]

Gamble paying off so far. 6 points clear and he hasn’t even brought out the attacking mids much yet.

Should be 8 though

[lionel_messias]

This isn't true. This is the midfield he goes with when Keita, and Ox aren't available. He didn't bring both of these players so they wouldn't be picked. It's clear as day that he understands what the midfield can and can't do, and why those two were signed.

People go on about this like Klopp has left Keita on the bench for 12 months along with ox, and picked Fabinho,Henderson and Gini ahead of them without giving those a look in.

Was Keita fit enough for the bench but not to start then? I thought Henderson had been busy playing for England and Naby back at Melwood training with Liverpool for this match?

(Actually I don't really disagree with you, I hope you are right and we saw loads of Keita and Ox from now into December and beyond)

[Bergersrightwingviews]

Don't discount Lallana either.

We are a team that are extremely fast. We have fast players, are very quick on transition and to facilitate that we need players who play the game at a very high tempo. Hendo and Gini are not really high tempo players (or not being utilised as such, because I think both can actually be high tempo players in the right circumstances).

Lallana doesn't have a lot of pace but his technique and first touch mean that he is able to use the ball more quickly than the others because he doesn't spend 4 touches just getting the ball into position where he can decide where to pass it. Ox has more raw pace/directness on the ball which we are starting to see more and more in his appearances, and hopefully he will be a regular starter soon. Naby doesn't have raw pace but he creates tempo by being able to be clever with his dribbling and pacing and creating gaps through guile and trickery. All of these are tools that we can hopefully utilise more and more as these players maintain their fitness and get match sharpness. In particular the 2 Genk games and League Cup against Arsenal could be good opportunities to give these 3 some extended minutes and perhaps gives us a bit more dimensions to how we can break teams down without necessarily sacrificing solidity/compactness. It may also give Gini and Hendo a bit of a breather to recharge a bit and maybe just work on a few things so that they also improve their games because both have been pretty average for us this season so far.

This is such a good post, mate.

Last line is worth emphasising too. We can argue about which midfield is the best for which game but we also need to factor in the need for the lads in there to get a rest when possible. All our midfielders have to put in one hell of a shift every game.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I don't think our FB's were playing conservative by choice is the main point. Ole was in essence copying Wilder's Sheffield tactics with two weeks to work on it with whoever was around.  Most teams aren't going to have that luxury.  With that said we've already seen it work once so to have it work again with no real answer until the last 15 minutes is really disappointing.  If I were Klopp I would certainly expect now every team to try to do this in going forward until we show we have the answers for it.

To then bring this back to the midfield, will it take a change in tactics or personal to then make the offense function when faced with opposition tactics similar to what we faced against ManU and Sheffield? 

As far as Origi, I don't think I'd ever start him in anything but the easiest of away games.  To me he's a poacher and while he can carry the ball up the field he's not amazing at it as he typically over complicates the move when on the ball.  He's just a zero out on the field unless we're dominating and his touches can just be around the box.  But aside from acknowledging his amazing season last year I'm not an Origi fan to begin with so might be a bit biased here.

You're probably right, and to be honest, Solkjaer's decision to play a 3-4-1-2/3-4-3 was probably smart in that regards. It allowed them to create double and triple teams in the right areas, while still allowing them to create danger from balls into the channels, especially for Rashford.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Was Keita fit enough for the bench but not to start then? I thought Henderson had been busy playing for England and Naby back at Melwood training with Liverpool for this match?

(Actually I don't really disagree with you, I hope you are right and we saw loads of Keita and Ox from now into December and beyond)

Training and being match fit are two different things mate. You can be ready for 20,30 minutes and  not ready to start. Given his injuries, its best we take care of him.properly

[SMASHerano]

Finally we got to see Keita, Ox and Fabinho play together. Would love to see more of that midfield.

[RedForeverTT]

Finally we got to see Keita, Ox and Fabinho play together. Would love to see more of that midfield.

And I thought Ox and Keita would never play together. Tonight is to a treat of what is to come.

Ox adds a different dimension to what was the Milner-Henderson-Gini workhorse combo and that was refreshing to see again.

[BazC]

I dont think we’ll see it that often -  but it was brilliant to see when they hooked it up on the attack.

Thing is, it was Genk. And they got 3 one on ones in the first 20 mins (I was counting up until then!) and at least a couple more after. Genk found it easy to get through that midfield and onto the defence/keeper - there’s no way we’ll see that midfield start in a PL game in my opinion. Norwich and Wolves recently showed City how potent even the lower league sides can be, Man Utd of course showed us the same on the weekend.

We simply can’t play such an open midfield in the league - Ox and Keita aren’t quite there yet. Hopefully they can get there though - because if they can slot into this side tactically, then the team takes another step forward. It would also have 7 attacking players on the pitch, which is pretty mental if you think about it. The “Fullbacks” and 2 number 8s who are very direct in their attacking play, supporting the front 3. That’s nuts if it works defensively.

For now, Gini at least, and probably Henderson too, slot back in alongside Fabinho for the Spurs game. I’d like to see Ox come in for Henderson and Gini back in for the Spurs game, but I do think Henderson and Gini start with Fabinho.

[Sinyoro]

And I thought Ox and Keita would never play together. Tonight is to a treat of what is to come.

Ox adds a different dimension to what was the Milner-Henderson-Gini workhorse combo and that was refreshing to see again.

I think the midfield going forward will be Fabinho, Wijnaldum and Keita/Ox. I can't choose between Ox and Naby but either will do.

[BazC]

I think the midfield going forward will be Fabinho, Wijnaldum and Keita/Ox. I can't choose between Ox and Naby but either will do.

Yeah, I think so. Gini’s pretty undroppable. He’s key to the team getting control of the game quickly, and that allows the team to do it’s damage in attack. He’s an immensely important player in this side. We lose out a bit offensively, but that’s not even because he hasnt got the ability - it’s just how Klopp needs him to play. The fullbacks are the attacking starts from deep, but only because Gini’s helping keep things locked down behind them.

Playing Keita and Ox together and all of a sudden, the CBs and Fabinho have got too much on defensively. Even Genk showed that today, and most teams we face will be on a different level to Genk entirely.

[BrandoLFC]

I dont think we’ll see it that often -  but it was brilliant to see when they hooked it up on the attack.

Thing is, it was Genk. And they got 3 one on ones in the first 20 mins (I was counting up until then!) and at least a couple more after. Genk found it easy to get through that midfield and onto the defence/keeper - there’s no way we’ll see that midfield start in a PL game in my opinion. Norwich and Wolves recently showed City how potent even the lower league sides can be, Man Utd of course showed us the same on the weekend.

We simply can’t play such an open midfield in the league - Ox and Keita aren’t quite there yet. Hopefully they can get there though - because if they can slot into this side tactically, then the team takes another step forward. It would also have 7 attacking players on the pitch, which is pretty mental if you think about it. The “Fullbacks” and 2 number 8s who are very direct in their attacking play, supporting the front 3. That’s nuts if it works defensively.

For now, Gini at least, and probably Henderson too, slot back in alongside Fabinho for the Spurs game. I’d like to see Ox come in for Henderson and Gini back in for the Spurs game, but I do think Henderson and Gini start with Fabinho.

This is all prefaced with the fact that at least 3 of the Genk attacks in the first half were off-sides but not flagged, right?  Without immediately rewatching the game I also recall all of those attacks coming from a Genk defender hitting a ball over the top which by passes the midfield.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Cant expect the midfield 3 tonight to all be on the same page wothin one game. They can play together and play better than they have, it wont be in every game but if theyre fit they will have ample amount of chances to do so. I am positive aside from Fabinho one of them will play against Spurs. (I think it will be Keita but we shall see)

[groove]

I think the improved quality in attack gave us a net gain even if we are slightly easier to play through.

[YoungKopite]

Can I just say how good it feels to see goals coming from midfield . Having additional threats such as Oxlade, Keita, Lallana, etc is going to be huge for us going forward. I hope all of them can remain healthy as possible, and get a consistent run in the team. We are looking really good for the busy winter period coming up!

[Roger Federer]

This is all prefaced with the fact that at least 3 of the Genk attacks in the first half were off-sides but not flagged, right?  Without immediately rewatching the game I also recall all of those attacks coming from a Genk defender hitting a ball over the top which by passes the midfield.

Agree. Not sure the midfield was more open than it has been previously. We played a very high line, with Milner and Lovren (not the quickest of players), and still got the offside trap right all but once I think. They just didn’t flag for some reason.

[keyop]

This is all prefaced with the fact that at least 3 of the Genk attacks in the first half were off-sides but not flagged, right?  Without immediately rewatching the game I also recall all of those attacks coming from a Genk defender hitting a ball over the top which by passes the midfield.

Yes, those balls over the top either caught our fullbacks too high, or created a speed contest between their forwards and Virgil/Lovren. It's also too early to overly praise or criticise that midfield setup given the injuries and how few games they've all played together.

It certainly gives Klopp plenty of options in future. He can play the conservative but solid Fabinho/Henderson/Wijnaldum trio and rely on the full backs and front 3 for penetration. Or he can play a destroyer/workhorse/creator midfield, with Fabinho in front of the defence then one of Milner/Henderson/Wijnaldum doing the hard yards, and either Keita/AoC or even Lallana driving forward. He also has the option of last night's midfield, with Robertson and Trent in more defensive roles, or asking either Keita or AoC to be the workhorse whilst the other has more freedom (or even take turns going forward during the game).

The possibilities now are mouth-watering, and in hindsight, not getting Fekir has worked out well.

There were so many positives last night - the quality of the goals, the energy, and more footballing filth from Bobby, but it was AoC's smile that did it for me. Those long lonely months in the gym and relentless hard work to get strength, fitness and form back all culminated in his performance last night and I'm delighted for him to have come this far.

[RedG13]

I think the midfield going forward will be Fabinho, Wijnaldum and Keita/Ox. I can't choose between Ox and Naby but either will do.

Agreed that what Klopp likely had for with his plan when bringing in Keita, Ox and Fabinho after Gini. Would probably see Keita and OX vs low block teams, big matches Gini is starting with one of the those two. Gini/Hendo can give Fabinho a rest also.

[hesbighesred]

I'm curious to see how he performs playing with Fab n Nab. Milner and Hendo have their strengths, positional discipline is not one of them (Can too). They tend to go wide at times and I think Gini holds back at times to cover space and protect against the counter. For the Oranje he is much freer to make forward runs.

One of the things I'm curious about is which Gini we will see when Naby is on the pitch with him.

One of the really exciting things about that pairing, especially now that Keita is more tactically up to speed, is how they can potentially alternate - Keita, like Gini, is comfortable occupying any of the three midfield roles. I think they have a lot of potential to do what Klopp loves, IE solve problems on the pitch by themselves, and offering us a midfield that, with Fab, could play as 3 6s or an 8 plus 2 10s as the situation dictates.

It would also free Henderson up to solve some squad problems - we can't play Hendo and TAA in every game and Hendo represents an excellent alternative for both roles, as well as offering what he's been doing this season so far.

[SteveZissou]

Expect to see a big improvement from Hendo going forward, since he can clearly see his place is under threat. Competition is going to breath better performances in the middle all round.

As for Klopp, I believe he believes his midfield does so much running he needs to two team's of midfielders - one for midweek and one for the weekend. With the amount of running the wing-backs do, one of them will also be rested. We obviously need a new option next season when Milner is leggy. I think toward the end of this season Milner will also be stretched there. It's a key position for an extra attacking wing-back.

My bigger question is that when one of the front three is not around, do we have to change the system or will it be the same if Shaqiri was available? Klopp wasn't satisfied with starting Origi there no matter how great he is as a sub. Hopefully, we will look at these positions in January again, after deciding not to do anything in the winter.

[CraigDS]

Klopp has never really shown much indication that one of the wing backs will be regularly rested.

[SteveZissou]

Klopp has never really shown much indication that one of the wing backs will be regularly rested.

I believe he will do this for the most stressful periods of the season since we don't have stellar options there. Those periods are during the most intense fixtures of the Champions League and December. I think he's done it for at least 2 out of our 3 games already. People will say it was due to injuries/fitness but Klopp is orchestrating that so he won't get stupid questions about rotation which he didn't like in the past and he smartly put an end to such questions at a very specific point last season.

The two big factors that affected some results in January and February - were Trent's injury and the Spain holidays breaking up the rhythm, particularly to Salah who took long to get back into the groove. Sadio Mane is always a machine so that benefitted him.

[harleydanger]

My concern with Naby and Ox is they seem to want the same space on the pitch.

[Robinred]

Agree. Not sure the midfield was more open than it has been previously. We played a very high line, with Milner and Lovren (not the quickest of players), and still got the offside trap right all but once I think. They just didn’t flag for some reason.

The reason they didn’t flag is that the assistant referees have been instructed to wait until close decisions are VAR’d. It’s crap of course, and confusing all round. But it’s what they’re instructed to do.

[Yesitsanextender]

Expect to see a big improvement from Hendo going forward, since he can clearly see his place is under threat. Competition is going to breath better performances in the middle all round.

As for Klopp, I believe he believes his midfield does so much running he needs to two team's of midfielders - one for midweek and one for the weekend. With the amount of running the wing-backs do, one of them will also be rested. We obviously need a new option next season when Milner is leggy. I think toward the end of this season Milner will also be stretched there. It's a key position for an extra attacking wing-back.

My bigger question is that when one of the front three is not around, do we have to change the system or will it be the same if Shaqiri was available? Klopp wasn't satisfied with starting Origi there no matter how great he is as a sub. Hopefully, we will look at these positions in January again, after deciding not to do anything in the winter.

why would hendo al of a sudden start to go forward? if he had the capability surely he would have done so by now?

[Scottymuser]

I dont think we’ll see it that often -  but it was brilliant to see when they hooked it up on the attack.

Thing is, it was Genk. And they got 3 one on ones in the first 20 mins (I was counting up until then!) and at least a couple more after. Genk found it easy to get through that midfield and onto the defence/keeper - there’s no way we’ll see that midfield start in a PL game in my opinion. Norwich and Wolves recently showed City how potent even the lower league sides can be, Man Utd of course showed us the same on the weekend.

We simply can’t play such an open midfield in the league - Ox and Keita aren’t quite there yet. Hopefully they can get there though - because if they can slot into this side tactically, then the team takes another step forward. It would also have 7 attacking players on the pitch, which is pretty mental if you think about it. The “Fullbacks” and 2 number 8s who are very direct in their attacking play, supporting the front 3. That’s nuts if it works defensively.

For now, Gini at least, and probably Henderson too, slot back in alongside Fabinho for the Spurs game. I’d like to see Ox come in for Henderson and Gini back in for the Spurs game, but I do think Henderson and Gini start with Fabinho.

So I don't think the MF had much to do with at least a couple of their chances - the problem was Milner wasn't Trent and wasn't covering across like he has a tendency to on breaks (nopt his fault, he just is too old and doesn't have the pace to play much anymore); Robbo had (for him) a very poor game (3 of the chances came from one on ones on his side which he lost and they put a cross in from) and Lovren being Lovren and rushing out and not being disciplined.  The Sheff United game for instance, with those three (and against a weaker MF than Genk's) showed the Fab/Hendo/Gini can be got at - that game we were far more "lucky" to win then this one (Genk's expected goals total was 1.3, including the goal; Sheff Us was 1.2 and they didn't score - so discount  their goal which was a defensive mistake, and their xG was lower last night; but our EG was 0.5 higher last night); Chelsea's equally created more goal scoring opportunities, all through the midfield, and were "lucky" to lose (admittedly Chelsea are a much better side than Genk).  In fact, we had our highest possession last night - and that shows our MF was actually *better* at holding on, and controlling the ball, then the three at Chelsea/Sheff U.

The issue with the normal MF 3 is our entire attack then becomes our FBs - and the last couple of matches have shown how easy it is for one of them to have an off day, or for the opposition to shut them down - and then we create less and rely on more our front 3 - and equally the opposition actually gets more chances, more ball, etc.  And the issue for me is if we keep going back to the three we know the limitations of, it limits Ox's/Keita's development as they get less game time to click, AND it presents the opposition with an easier puzzle to solve to get a draw.  If you want one of Ox and Keita to come in, then last night showed it has to be Keita if you want to have someone who can defend - his defensive contribution last night was stellar - much better than either Gini or Hendo often put out in terms of tackles/headers/interceptions.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

My concern with Naby and Ox is they seem to want the same space on the pitch.

Really? I couldn't agree less - Keita likes to come to the ball and largely stay behind it in a left-of-centre position, whereas Ox likes to pick up pockets ahead of the ball in a right-of-centre position.

I think it's too early to be throwing them both into a game like Spurs or City but I'd like to see more of them together after the international break. Everyone is talking about how open we were last night, and we undoubtedly were, but we were against Salzburg too with Wijnaldum and Henderson. Most of Genk's chances came from long balls over the top, which would suggest a) we weren't pressing well enough, which could be in part due to Ox and Keita, but I don't think we've been gegen-pressing to a top level for a long time now and b) we lacked pace at the back.

For me there's very little point playing Henderson in his current role. When he's up to speed Oxlade offers more explosiveness and technique as a right-of-centre midfielder supporting Trent and Salah.

[Roger Federer]

The reason they didn’t flag is that the assistant referees have been instructed to wait until close decisions are VAR’d. It’s crap of course, and confusing all round. But it’s what they’re instructed to do.

Fair enough, they seemed to flag even less than they do in the league, even when the players were yards off. It is very confusing, not least for the pundits who didn't seem to notice the offsides.

Still, the point Brando made stands - almost all their attacks were offside, and most of them came from a punt upfield. I don't see how that is the fault of the midfield or how it makes us easy to play through. It's seems more like a fault with our attack who didn't close down the long ball, or the the defence who reacted too slowly or didn't get the timing right. But infact they did get their timing right in all but one occasion I think, and our midfield can hardly be blamed for any attack Genk had.

[Legoland]

Really? I couldn't agree less - Keita likes to come to the ball and largely stay behind it in a left-of-centre position, whereas Ox likes to pick up pockets ahead of the ball in a right-of-centre position.

I think it's too early to be throwing them both into a game like Spurs or City but I'd like to see more of them together after the international break. Everyone is talking about how open we were last night, and we undoubtedly were, but we were against Salzburg too with Wijnaldum and Henderson. Most of Genk's chances came from long balls over the top, which would suggest a) we weren't pressing well enough, which could be in part due to Ox and Keita, but I don't think we've been gegen-pressing to a top level for a long time now and b) we lacked pace at the back.

For me there's very little point playing Henderson in his current role. When he's up to speed Oxlade offers more explosiveness and technique as a right-of-centre midfielder supporting Trent and Salah.

There's another international break!? FFS

[LallanaInPyjamas]

There's another international break!? FFS

Yeah, after City. Last one until March.

[Knight]

For me there's very little point playing Henderson in his current role. When he's up to speed Oxlade offers more explosiveness and technique as a right-of-centre midfielder supporting Trent and Salah.

Agreed, statistically Henderson is offering almost literally nothing in his current role at the moment. Hopefully the week off will help Henderson because I'd be very surprised if it weren't back to Fab-Gin-Hendo on Sunday.

[groove]

Noticed for the first goal, both Keita and Ox have taken up positions in between defence and midfield. In fact, if the keeper saves then Keita would be first to the rebound.

[SerbianScouser]

Nice little preview of how our midfield should play like against the dross.

Goals, drive, penetration, swagger. It's gonna get a lot better too.

Days of our underdog midfield that's been our default for a while are numbered. There's a whole new level for this team as ridiculous as it may sound and it's about to happen soon.

[BrandoLFC]

So which RAWK poster that bemoaned Keita and Ox's defensive cover is in fact Ian Doyle?  This article is a joke:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-genk-analysis-fabinho-salah-17136637

Issue 1, the midfield left the defense exposed.  Issue 2, off-sides weren't being called due to VAR.  At no point is it discussed how #2 affected #1 which is kind of a comical "I have an agenda" and am going to make my facts fit this type article.

5 of the 6 off-sides happened in the first half, notice how that also coincides with peoples viewpoint?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Doyle talks out of his ass, and some people obviously watch the match with a blindfold on

[peachybum]

I really think it's time to stop the experiment of moving Henderson forward and go back to him just playing as a #6. Even if that means he's second choice behind Fabinho. At the end of last season Hendo did inject some much needed energy going forward but as we're moving through this new season he really isn't offering anything beneficial in that role. I can understand if Klopp thinks Keita and Ox together as the #8's are too offensive but having at least one of them with Gini would still be an improvement.

[Bjornar]

I can remember under Rafa Alonso coming on after 45 minutes and turning 2-0 deficits into a win, and ridiculous stuff like that because he was that much better than the players starting ahead of him then. Now, we have five or six midfielders  on about the same level as each other IMO, and they are being rotated because they are just about interchangeable as far as overall ability goes. The 'Brexit midfield' shouts sound to me like the 'take off the shackles' shouts  did under Rafa, ie mainly just uninformed nonsense. We rotate in midfield because thay are all roughly about as good as each other.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

We rotate in midfield because it's the most demanding part of our side, so in order to maintain freshness and ability to compete on multiple front's its a most, plus because they're all quality players.

[JC the Messiah]

why would hendo al of a sudden start to go forward? if he had the capability surely he would have done so by now?

He has done it.

[Knight]

We rotate in midfield because thay are all roughly about as good as each other.

They all have massively different skillsets though. And certain combinations work better than others.