Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[MD1990]

need to show ambition in January.
Get in Tchoumeni in. We can get out run at times.

[RedBootsTommySmith]

While we still have injuries in the midfield, one temporary option would be to move Trent to right-half with Joe filling in behind him as right back. Adds solidity to the back four while maintaining a strong right-sided attack

Similar options on the left with Robbo & Kostas.

[mattD]

If there really is a dearth of midfield options, the answer may include Minamino?

Put Hendo in the holding position, push Taki forward in the attacking midfield role perhaps. Good with the press, good on the ball - defensively he may be suspect (unsure as he’s only played forward) but I thought he was fairly alert in off the ball moments in the very short time he had on the field.

Albeit, it may be deceptive appearing impressive when coming on in the 85th minute when all other legs are tired. But he did replace Jones, so maybe an option?

[El Lobo]

It’s all a bit overblown this.

We’ve got Henderson, Ox and Jones fit. Fabinho and Thiago likely returning shortly and Millie and Naby unlikely to be out for too long. We really don’t need drastic actions like moving Trent or a CB into midfield.

[Max_powers]

Hendo is fine as a defensive midfielder.

Thiago is back.

How long is Fabinho out for? Didn't sound like its for long.

Yesterday's game, we didn't draw because we were missing players. Maybe Thiago could have made a difference as he is more press-resistant.

We drew because just like City, Brighton played 6-7 man midfield and pressed us, it was always going to be challenge. They have some class midfielders. There are not that many teams that can do that to us, in the league.

I think we did a reasonable job passing our way through them, but were very wasteful with the ball when we had the opportunity to counter them.

[bornandbRED]

Adam Lallana won 4 of 5 tackles against our midfield yesterday. One thing we’ve generally always been in there since 2015 is very combative. Not yesterday.

[Agent99]

need to show ambition in January.
Get in Tchoumeni in. We can get out run at times.

Not that we will but if we did get a midfielder in January they would need time to learn how to play in our setup.

[the_red_pill]

Klopp again mentioning that we didn't defend the half spaces well enough. It's now the second time that he has mentioned that so far this season. The other time being City at Anfield, before half-time, but you could see it also in some of the rest of games we played so far.

“There are different things, it is not always the same.

“I know now when we talk now about defending and the whole football world will say that’s why I am a pretty well-paid coach, but I don’t discuss on that level.

“It’s not only the last line, it’s not only a centre-half, it’s a common thing. We didn’t defend the half-spaces right and that was our problem."

“If you don’t defend the half-spaces well then the last line has to drop a little bit, which makes no sense. All of a sudden it is then not to defend any more and that’s how it is.

“The best way to defend them would have been to have had the ball and to do smart or clever stuff. That’s what we didn’t do enough and that’s why we paid the price for it.”

[Dave McCoy]

I can re-link the article I posted the other day in the Salah and Tactics threads but yes we have clearly changed tactics when it comes to our midfield and team setup.  In hindsight Harvey starting makes a lot of sense even if he's not a traditional midfielder as the RCM is now expected to fill in the space in the attacking 3rd left by Mo staying out wide and combine with both him and Trent who is inverting.  This means then that we no longer have a dedicated RCM to the space behind Trent like Hendo used to do.  Also by Trent inverting it means that either the 6 or RCB has to cover a huge area on their own and why I think the change to Konate was made in that he's more mobile than Matip who couldn't get close to Joao Felix which caused us all manner of issues in the Atletico game.  Felix was staying high and wide behind Trent making for stupidly easy out balls since neither Hendo and Matip could get over.  Long story short we're asking our midfield to do different things now.

As far as personnel, I did a breakdown back during the transfer window in the transfer thread where if everyone played to their historical average we were short cover and why a midfielder made more sense than a forward even with Mo and Sadio leaving for AFCON.  Now I didn't expect Harvey to be used as a midfielder at the time so based on an unknown amount of minutes Harvey would have been able to play then I guess we were fine in the clubs eyes.  With that said did anybody at the club expect by MW10 we're using a midfield of Hendo/Jones/Ox?  I would guess no. Especially as all pre-season it was briefed that Ox was now the new Firmino cover.  So maybe we can reinforcements in January but I would guess next summer is more likely since that's when Milner will be off and we just have to pray to the Football gods for good health in the meantime.

Individually, I hesitate to say much as each player has their white knights on here who will just argue non-stop how their favorite player is perfect when that's just not even possible.  For me at least Hendo has lost a step and it's causing both himself and those around him issues if the team is put under stress and pressure.  If he had Fabinho and Thiago around him it probably wouldn't be all that noticeable but right now he's gotta be the lynchpin and while generally fine it can be a problem.   I think Jones is fine if paired with defensively better players, can't ever see him used again with Ox or even Harvey unless there are no other options.  Ox I think the setup just has to be ideal to where he can just try to attack.  The club should probably try to sell Keita to Bayern at this point.  Thiago and Fab are obviously not going anywhere.

[RedG13]

Hendo is fine as a defensive midfielder.

Thiago is back.

How long is Fabinho out for? Didn't sound like its for long.

Yesterday's game, we didn't draw because we were missing players. Maybe Thiago could have made a difference as he is more press-resistant.

We drew because just like City, Brighton played 6-7 man midfield and pressed us, it was always going to be challenge. They have some class midfielders. There are not that many teams that can do that to us, in the league.

I think we did a reasonable job passing our way through them, but were very wasteful with the ball when we had the opportunity to counter them.

Henderson is fine at Holding Midfield if there a controller type in the help like Thiago or Keita. OX is not that type and Jones is not at that stage of his career yet.
He had 3 shots yesterday and Won 1 out of 5 ground duels. He has struggled to win ground duels this year(38%). He normally over 50(Last season was 56%, 19/20 was 53%). Idk why he not up to his standard of it so far this year. Maybe his last injury is playing a part of it. On the Shots part the holding MF is no supposed to take shots and go ahead of the ball that is bad for the MF structure, his goal was nice but not supposed to be his role in that game. Everybody in the MF didnt play well after Keita went off also
Henderson is important to have in the squad and I would be nice for him to be able to figure it out.
I think the MF will be fine after international break, Thiago, Keita are likely to be  back then. Fabinho possibly before then also. Elliott hopefully returns around the new year too. Milner will also likely be back after the international break also.

[Fitzy.]

Klopp again mentioning that we didn't defend the half spaces well enough. It's now the second time that he has mentioned that so far this season. The other time being City at Anfield, before half-time, but you could see it also in some of the rest of games we played so far.

Interesting. Obviously a concern and may be a result of clever scouting from well-coached opposition sides. That said, we didn't lose either game and it's still relatively early in the season to resolve this issue. Problem solving is a trait of this side.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Interesting. Obviously a concern and may be a result of clever scouting from well-coached opposition sides. That said, we didn't lose either game and it's still relatively early in the season to resolve this issue. Problem solving is a trait of this side.

Our two wide central midfielders are also playing a lot wider when we are in possession, I think this can make us vulnerable in transitions as we're more open in the middle.

[Nick110581]

Do we have any timelines for Thiago and Fab?

We could be stretched further if both aren’t ready for games this week.

[killer-heels]

Do we have any timelines for Thiago and Fab?

We could be stretched further if both aren’t ready for games this week.

Thiago is back in full training so maybe gets some minutes against West Ham and a bench appearance for both Atletico and West Ham. Very much doubt Fabinho is back before the weekend and even then he would have been out for a few weeks so maybe a bench appearance.

Long term it would be probably best that Fabinho in particular misses the International break so maybe we hold him back.

[Nick110581]

Thiago is back in full training so maybe gets some minutes against West Ham and a bench appearance for both Atletico and West Ham. Very much doubt Fabinho is back before the weekend and even then he would have been out for a few weeks so maybe a bench appearance.

Long term it would be probably best that Fabinho in particular misses the International break so maybe we hold him back.

Personally, I don’t see either starting midweek.

Might have to be creative versus West Ham in the middle as they are pretty strong in there.

I still think we may play four forwards soon and two holding midfielders - Thiago and Henderson maybe.

[the_red_pill]

Interesting. Obviously a concern and may be a result of clever scouting from well-coached opposition sides. That said, we didn't lose either game and it's still relatively early in the season to resolve this issue. Problem solving is a trait of this side.

Agree Fitz. No need to panic yet and as you say, this side is quite intelligent both on and off the pitch so we can adjust.

[the_red_pill]

Our two wide central midfielders are also playing a lot wider when we are in possession, I think this can make us vulnerable in transitions as we're more open in the middle.

I mentioned in the Salah thread that he seemd to have played a bit differently on Saturday. He stayed out wide more and sent in more crosses than we've become used to from him- a bit like a traditional winger, which I've not really seen from Salah- and it showed cause I have to say some of those weren't as good, while in others, it appears that those attempting to get on the end didn't know where he was going to put it. Usually, Trent/fullback would swing in the crosses or even the midfield, but on Saturday he seemed to swing in quite a few.
I dunno if this was due to tactics or perhaps I'm just "seeing things", but something was "off" on Saturday.

[BTGH]

We play a risky game.  It's great for goal scoring, and it forces other teams to make a decision on how they want to respond.  When we lose the ball on the attack, we press high and condense the pitch (everyone has to move up, including Alisson).  Teams can play a direct long ball, but it's hard to hit a 50/60-yard ball beyond Van Dijk and CB partner and drop it in front of Alisson.  It's the safest (for not conceding chances to us), but the least effective.  The other option for the opposition is to try to play their way out.  If they are lax on the ball, we win it back instantly, either through taking possession directly, or having our CBs/CMs stepping up, playing on the front foot, and cutting out passes.  But if they're composed on the ball (like City or even like a Brighton), they can get the ball up the pitch quickly.  If Fabinho is not in there, our CMs could be wrong side, they could get turned, maybe they lose a 50/50, and next thing you know, it's a ton of space for the other team.  Our backline can still step up and play the offside (any hesitation by the other team's players on the ball could cause that move to break down).  If the opposing team times the pass well enough though, they can get 1 on 1 opportunities.

Or we could drop off and invite more of our players to come back to help snuff out the attack.  But then it leads to us not making challenges until the other team is very close to our box.

There's just no way to have perfect games.  We create a lot of chances typically and score a lot of goals, but we can't do that without taking some risks in defending.  Even in games when we're in full control, all it takes is one good set of passes, and the opposing team may have a chance to play in one of their attackers.  That game against Arsenal last year was probably the peak of it.  We dominated that game from start to finish.  Most of the time, Arsenal couldn't even dream of playing the ball out.  Aubameyang was completely anonymous.  Yet, up 2-1, there was a 5-10 minute stretch where twice Arsenal broke through the midfield and slid Lacazette in twice.  Once he was just offside (our high line worked).  The other, he was onside, and Alisson denied him with a great save (last line for us).  It worked out in the end, but on another day, that's an undeserved leveler created out of almost nothing.  You look at Brighton yesterday.  How many times did they play through and either slipped in an attacker (like March for his 1 on 1) or created opportunities as we backed off.  We caught them offside a couple of times when they played it early, but sometimes they were patient and got very deep into our box before we tried last-ditch challenges.  There was one sequence where they were showing a replay of a challenge on Salah in the Brighton box, and as soon as they returned to action, Brighton had the ball in our box.  That is some quick attack from a decent side.  Not everyone can play like that against us, but well-coached teams will no doubt try to play into the space beyond our midfielders and in front of the CBs.

We're always going to leave space, and it's just usually teams can't string the passes together or time their passes well enough (or like Burnley, just hoof it long too early).  Some teams will play aimlessly against us just to not concede possession in dangerous areas.  But decent sides will think they can get a few chances off us, and if they take them, we're going to concede.  Fabinho in there helps a lot, so we do need him back.  We just need to hold teams down enough and not concede goals in bunches.  We were the masters of winning games 2-1 during our title run and even our memorable games of last season.  Not perfect, but doing enough to get over the line.  We haven't had a single 2-1 result this year.  It feels like we could score in bunches, but also we could concede 2 in 5 minutes in some games.

Entertaining for sure, but will need to do better to see out results.

One aspect which I think we don't have in our DNA is tactical fouling.  Man City practices this and does it very frequently, but for us, we only do this sporadically with Milner and Fab.  The other midfielders I don't recall them doing it.  When we lose the ball, we allow the opposition players to carry the ball and run at us or pass their way through our pressing, we don't do tactical fouling.  Many goals or chances we've conceded would have been nipped in the bud if our players are willing to foul the opposition player early enough, concede the foul further upfield (and perhaps receive a yellow card) which will allow the team to re-organize and defend better.

[mrantarctica]

One aspect which I think we don't have in our DNA is tactical fouling.  Man City practices this and does it very frequently, but for us, we only do this sporadically with Milner and Fab.  The other midfielders I don't recall them doing it.  When we lose the ball, we allow the opposition players to carry the ball and run at us or pass their way through our pressing, we don't do tactical fouling.  Many goals or chances we've conceded would have been nipped in the bud if our players are willing to foul the opposition player early enough, concede the foul further upfield (and perhaps receive a yellow card) which will allow the team to re-organize and defend better.

it's not necessarily just fouling either. A crucial aspect is to be able to slow down the attacks of the opposition team. Obviously fouling is a sure-fire way to do this but comes at the risk of cards which can end up being counter-productive. Too often our players are dribbled past quite easily, or don't win their duels which means that we are generally quite exposed on counter-attacks as our fullbacks are usually quite high. This is an area we're going to have to really work on. Having Fab who does that stifling job naturally is a luxury but we're going to have to learn how to do it when he's not available.

[Agent99]

I agree on the tactical fouling but Klopp hates that stuff. I would even be up for a player feigning injury to get treatment just to slow the game down when a team is on top. I suppose it is one of the things I love about our team though is that we aren't a bunch of shithouses.

[SamLad]

Which is why we are  at or near the top of the fair play league most seasons.

[lionel_messias]

Will be great to have Thiago back and Fabinho is a spine player for us.

Would prefer to see Henderson in the right side role then, with his energy and running.

Curtis Jones is still young, he needs to understand the Klopp system over time.

Not wanting to mention transfers but perhaps only if Ox leaves in January will we see another midfielder brought in.
Unless we have someone special at the right price lined up, that is.

[lukeb1981]

Will be great to have Thiago back and Fabinho is a spine player for us.

Would prefer to see Henderson in the right side role then, with his energy and running.

Curtis Jones is still young, he needs to understand the Klopp system over time.

Not wanting to mention transfers but perhaps only if Ox leaves in January will we see another midfielder brought in.
Unless we have someone special at the right price lined up, that is.

Hendersons energy and running is not there this season- injuries and the sheer amount of games he is having to play are not helping. We need to replace his legs in the team and let him just play the one game a week. He still has a lot to offer over the next few years but his time needs to Managed more.

[fowlermagic]

Hendersons energy and running is not there this season- injuries and the sheer amount of games he is having to play are not helping. We need to replace his legs in the team and let him just play the one game a week. He still has a lot to offer over the next few years but his time needs to Managed more.

You can also say the same about Thiago and Keita as you have to manage all of these lads as age will show sooner rather than later plus they are very prone to knocks that end up with another few weeks out before getting match fit again. Harvey is surely 3 or 4 seasons away from his best and needs to be nurtured after a huge injury, Jones looks good in bits & pieces but will he outclass a top CL midfield or hold his own week in week out? Too early in his career to expect that so all told our somewhat creaking aging spine from top to bottom will need additions in the next 18-24 months as the average age of the backbone of the team will 30 plus. Seen it before where managers ride the wave of a great team until that team look old and declining rapidly. We are cresting right now as the lads still look brilliant but the dip is just ahead so Jurgen needs to show he can rebuild a team before setting off to his next challenge.

[irishmike639]

Every time I see Thiago on the pitch for us, I shudder. He is a liability.

[scatman]

Every time I see Thiago on the pitch for us, I shudder. He is a liability.

watch the game you dick

[bornandbRED]

The midfield is a mess and it’s been like this all season. Some of us have been banging on about it for ages - we can’t control a game anymore and the personnel aren’t up to scratch for the way we want to play/traditionally have played. Been masked by the front 3 smacking them in so far but it’s always going to catch up with you.

[ac]

We are missing gini. Fab and Thiago looked understandably rusty today and Ox doesn't look up to it.

[Funky_Gibbons]

We are missing gini. Fab and Thiago looked understandably rusty today and Ox doesn't look up to it.

Because we never lost games or control in. midfield with Wijnaldum

[Caligula?]

What midfield?

[ac]

Because we never lost games or control in. midfield with Wijnaldum

True. Its nots so much about Gini though. Its having a defensively dependable player in there that is available. I understand not giving Gini a contract but we should have replaced him with similar qualities

[U13]

Because we never lost games or control in. midfield with Wijnaldum

We did but it's happening a lot more frequently now.

Klopp has talked a lot about us not defending the half spaces well enough and one of Gini's best qualities was his understanding of space and where to be.

He was practically an ever present for 4 years, I think it was pretty much a given that we'd take a while to function at our best without him. I don't think that's a slight on anyone either.

[Clint Eastwood]

Can’t blame injuries in midfield for this one. Any footballer should be able to drag Bowen down and prevent that second goal. Our front 3 have it done to them multiple times a game. Bowen just waltzes through without having to do much.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

We are missing gini. Fab and Thiago looked understandably rusty today and Ox doesn't look up to it.

Tbf Henderson hasn't been that great either.

[CalgarianRed]

Our midfield is simply not at the same level as City or even Chelsea. We can't control games like they do.

Fabinho is class but sometimes its just a 1 man midfield. Hendo is okay but when he is bad he is really bad and not one of those players who can control the tempo. Thiago is quality but he is injury prone. Ox/Keita are highly injury prone and inconsistent.

We should have gone for Aouar, Rodrigo De Paul or even Bissouma this summer.

[JackWard33]

Tbf Henderson hasn't been that great either.

That’s very kind - he’s been awol defensively all season

[bornandbRED]

From one of the most physical and dogged midfields in Europe to…. this. Somehow we’ve entered a scenario where we have a bunch of slow, ageing and frequently injured options in CM. The antithesis of our manager’s footballing philosophy and what made us good.

[killer-heels]

Definitely the area of the team that will need the most work in the summer. Too many players past their best.

Still, thats for the summer and we will have to hope for fewer injuries.

[Wool]

Went from being a nightmare to play against to teams only having to string together three passes to end up 1v1 with our keeper. I’m not sure if it’s due to a tactical tweak or what, but the balance in midfield is just all wrong. Henderson in particular just seems to be nowhere to be seen in a defensive capacity.

[RedForeverTT]

I know Thiago has been out injured and got Covid that stunted his integration to the team. However it has been almost a season and a half and I have not seen enough consistent performances that screams ‘game changer’. Premier league physicality and pace looks too much for him.