Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[MH41]

We should buy a controller in midfield. Someone who is always fit, always reliable, will hold on to the ball, calm things down when we're under pressure, and someone who is difficult to dispossess. Someone like wijnaldum......
I jest.....(I think)
FWIW, I don't think Thiago can run either..... quality player, but can't run, and has no recovery pace whatsoever. Perhaps purchased a few years too late (Our Ronaldo?)
We're conceding too many goals - Brentford, Milan, Atletico, Brighton, West ham
Anyway, it's annoying as hell to lose, particularly going in to an international break.

[JackWard33]

I know Thiago has been out injured and got Covid that stunted his integration to the team. However it has been almost a season and a half and I have not seen enough consistent performances that screams ‘game changer’. Premier league physicality and pace looks too much for him.

You didn’t watch our last ten league games last year then - was our best played and with Trent and Mo dragged us to top 4

[Coolie High]

You didn’t watch our last ten league games last year then - was our best played and with Trent and Mo dragged us to top 4

Yep far from the problem, in fact I hazard a guess that we would have won a couple of those games we’ve drawn/lost if our two was Fabinho and Thiago.

[RyanBabel19]

Thiagos an excellent player but we need to marry that up with movement!!

Not to absolve Thiago of blame but sometimes, he gets it and looks up and we aren't creating passing lanes. He is too slow on it at times but at his best, the guys sublime. Pair him with Fab from the start in a few games now he's had some minutes and let them develop the partnership from last season

[Lastrador]

Have to say, I think people are being unfair singling the midfield as the sole cause of our defensive problems and lack of cohesion. I see numerous problems throughout the team, and yes one is that the midfield hasn't been great, but one of the biggest changes I have noticed from last season, is Trent position when we are on the ball. He's playing more as an inside midfielder than a fullback, and his lack of recovery pace and effort going back are causing lots of problems defensively, more than people care to realize because he's so good on the ball, it's easier blaming Henderson for this. We're also losing the ball extremely early and in transitions, which means the midfield and defence are always badly positioned for recovering. I think Mane, especially today, has been one of the worst culprits of this, but he has hardly been the only one. I also think playing more offensive midfielders like Harvey, Ox, Curtis, Milner instead of Wijnaldum, who are more creative and dangerous but less tactically switched and prone to vacating their defensive positions (Gini hardly ever did), has made us less solid in the middle. Another thing I've noticed, but don't have the data to back it up, is less pressuring from the front three. When Naby has played, we have looked more like our old self in this regard, but when he's not out pressing has been really poor.

[Kashinoda]

We did but it's happening a lot more frequently now.

Klopp has talked a lot about us not defending the half spaces well enough and one of Gini's best qualities was his understanding of space and where to be.

He was practically an ever present for 4 years, I think it was pretty much a given that we'd take a while to function at our best without him. I don't think that's a slight on anyone either.

We're losing more frequently now? We've lost one.

When we were losing frequently last season, Gini was in midfield.

[The Real Rasta]

We're losing more frequently now? We've lost one.

When we were losing frequently last season, Gini was in midfield.

Tbf I think he was referring to lack of control, not that I agree with what he says.

[Egyptian36]

Have to say, I think people are being unfair singling the midfield as the sole cause of our defensive problems and lack of cohesion. I see numerous problems throughout the team, and yes one is that the midfield hasn't been great, but one of the biggest changes I have noticed from last season, is Trent position when we are on the ball. He's playing more as an inside midfielder than a fullback, and his lack of recovery pace and effort going back are causing lots of problems defensively, more than people care to realize because he's so good on the ball, it's easier blaming Henderson for this. We're also losing the ball extremely early and in transitions, which means the midfield and defence are always badly positioned for recovering. I think Mane, especially today, has been one of the worst culprits of this, but he has hardly been the only one. I also think playing more offensive midfielders like Harvey, Ox, Curtis, Milner instead of Wijnaldum, who are more creative and dangerous but less tactically switched and prone to vacating their defensive positions (Gini hardly ever did), has made us less solid in the middle. Another thing I've noticed, but don't have the data to back it up, is less pressuring from the front three. When Naby has played, we have looked more like our old self in this regard, but when he's not out pressing has been really poor.

I said it before I think we are preparing for a different style. No more false 9 ( Firmino not the same player as before and almost impossible to find a player like him so we are likely to target a typical 9 or use Jota at this role permanently ) so one of the midfielders need to be more attacking ( we see Harvey at this role and thats why Hendo played more advanced there ) , left wide forward staying more wide to stretch opposition defense and create space , Trent more central so we take advantage from his great passing. The issue tho is for this to work we need a quick defensively intelligent player left of Fabinho.

[Red_Rich]

It would've been nice to have Niguez in the squad.

Forgot about him.  Has he actually even played for Chelsea yet?

[RedSince86]

Announce Kessie in January for a cut price deal.

[U13]

We're losing more frequently now? We've lost one.

When we were losing frequently last season, Gini was in midfield.

We're being played through in midfield much more frequently than we have in years. Do you disagree?

[Dave McCoy]

I've been pretty consistent in my posts about our midfield through good and bad this season.  The one thing that would be nice though is if people would acknowledge that our midfield isn't being asked to do the same things as previous seasons and combined with Trent's new positioning there might be nobody that we could buy sans a prime aged Kante that would make us look like Chelsea or ManC.  That's not to say we don't need younger legs in midfield, we do, but it may not be the ultimate panacea that people are making it out to be.

[JackWard33]

I've been pretty consistent in my posts about our midfield through good and bad this season.  The one thing that would be nice though is if people would acknowledge that our midfield isn't being asked to do the same things as previous seasons and combined with Trent's new positioning there might be nobody that we could buy sans a prime aged Kante that would make us look like Chelsea or ManC.  That's not to say we don't need younger legs in midfield, we do, but it may not be the ultimate panacea that people are making it out to be.

This is a fair point we’re set up very differently - it’s way more attacking than the last 2+ years

The changes on the ball are pretty obvious - But I’ve watched us for 10 games and I’m still not certain what exactly is supposed to happen without the ball. Trent and Henderson seem to be constantly freelancing high up the pitch for example … it looks a lot more like Klopps first 24 months when we could look totally dominating but as soon as we dropped off a bit one pass or lost tackle would see us horribly exposed

The best our shape has looked was the end of last season when fabinho and Thaigo were playing close to an out and out double pivot

[Knight]

It's not working in midfield, at all, right now. Henderson off the ball is offering nothing. Ox has never been brilliant off the ball. And if they're meant to be offering more offensively... they're not really.

[rushyman]

Of all the lunacy being spouted tonight this is probably a subject that’s fair game

We have injuries there international break is welcome. Jones keita and Milner hopefully available for Arsenal as well as Thiago more up to speed

[Chris~]

Might be more for the post match thread, but given the three we had on the pitch today I don't really get why we didn't have Henderson and Fabinho as more of a midfield two with Ox playing the sort of wide mid rotating with Trent and Salah. I'm guessing Klopp didn't want to break up that right side, but just seemed like it'd have suited what we had and maybe protected against the counters better in the second half.

[Dave McCoy]

This is a fair point we’re set up very differently - it’s way more attacking than the last 2+ years

The changes on the ball are pretty obvious - But I’ve watched us for 10 games and I’m still not certain what exactly is supposed to happen without the ball. Trent and Henderson seem to be constantly freelancing high up the pitch for example … it looks a lot more like Klopps first 24 months when we could look totally dominating but as soon as we dropped off a bit one pass or lost tackle would see us horribly exposed

The best our shape has looked was the end of last season when fabinho and Thaigo were playing close to an out and out double pivot

Do you mean in the attacking 3rd, in transition or in the defensive 3rd?  The biggest thing to me is in transition where it's highlighted now that there is no RCM dedicated to cover the space from Matip to the line.  I thought the switch to Konate was for a more mobile CB to get out there and cover that himself but now we switched back to Matip and I'm not so sure.  Today was probably the most I've seen Salah track back in transition, or at least it seemed that way, so it's clear they're working on it.

[Dave McCoy]

It's not working in midfield, at all, right now. Henderson off the ball is offering nothing. Ox has never been brilliant off the ball. And if they're meant to be offering more offensively... they're not really.

I'm not so sure even if everybody was healthy that we still wouldn't look somewhat easy to play through in transition.  The point of this midfield change was to free up Salah and Trent to be more attacking, not necessarily attack more themselves so to that end the change is working.

Might be more for the post match thread, but given the three we had on the pitch today I don't really get why we didn't have Henderson and Fabinho as more of a midfield two with Ox playing the sort of wide mid rotating with Trent and Salah. I'm guessing Klopp didn't want to break up that right side, but just seemed like it'd have suited what we had and maybe protected against the counters better in the second half.

I'd have to look but have we ever started a game in a 4231 that didn't have Firmino in the 10 spot?

[CalgarianRed]

Announce Kessie in January for a cut price deal.

That'll be one hell of a signing. He is a top player.

[redk84]

Our midfield now reminds me of our midfield in the first few seasons under klopp - though much better at retaining posession (usually) due to our shift in style.
Personally thought we were light coming into the season (sharado did a post in the match thread which pretty much explains my thinking on why)

But that's done...Hendo/Fab/Thiago I am guessing is our preferred option which has not featured much this season...so maybe there is hope to come but we have to keep the pressure off the forwards or I can see our free-scoring coming to a stop too

Great thing is having the CL free up our preferred team to concentrate on PL...and klopp can use those CL games to maybe try something different
We haven't seen the 4 forwards feature all at once which we started doing a few times in the xmas run-up last season, maybe we will try that again to put teams on backfoot?

[HeartAndSoul]

Weakest part of our team nowadays?

Just feel like we don't have the right balance in there. Fabinho at the base is worldclass (terrible yesterday) but it feels like the 2 in front of him have been a major problem helping the side defensively and we're so easy to play through.

Don't know if it's worth a tactical switch or a formation switch but something needs to change because we've been too easy to get bypassed in midfield.

[Fiasco]

Weakest part of our team nowadays?

Just feel like we don't have the right balance in there. Fabinho at the base is worldclass (terrible yesterday) but it feels like the 2 in front of him have been a major problem helping the side defensively and we're so easy to play through.

Don't know if it's worth a tactical switch or a formation switch but something needs to change because we've been too easy to get bypassed in midfield.

Without doubt it is the weakest part of our team now. I think when you break it down individually you don't really need to go into too much detail either:


Henderson - unbelievable servant, still great on his day, but 32 next summer and will decline. Injury issues too.

Thiago - outstanding technically, incredible vision, but came here relatively late in his career and it has been stop/start. Injury issues hinder him too.

Fabinho - our best all-round midfielder, no issues with his play at all, niggling injury issues are a concern but he's the least of my worries.

Milner - Pushing 36, squad player at best now but perfect for that role if that is all it is with his experience and craftiness. Senior player, but shouldn't be playing too much.

Ox - Again, severe injury issues, form has fallen off a cliff since his last major one, struggles for game time and consistency, low on confidence, long road back.

Jones - Splits opinion but in my view he's a fantastic talent, we don't seem to know what we want from him but he needs time and he's got it all if we are patient

Keita - He's either the devil or the saviour but the truth is in the middle. Major, major concerns over his fitness, great against certain teams, not a flop but not a massive success either.

Elliot - Injured but a supreme talent, could be a mainstay for a decade if nurtured right.




I know a simple sentence on a player does nothing to paint a full picture, but I think you can at least sketch one here. We need two midfielders of pure quality in my opinion but I'd be surprised if that happened. I'm not writing them all of by any means, but our forwards are still scoring, our fullbacks are still producing (Robertson out of form but still getting into great positions and Tsimikas is pushing him hard, Trent majestic as always), Alisson yesterday aside has been great this season, VVD is getting up to speed and Matip and Konate have been pretty good this season, but when you look at our midfield you just know it isn't right and I'm not sure it is a temporary thing.

[RainbowFlick]

Think yesterday was another example of how dysfunctional our midfield can be lately.

Also not a huge fan of us bringing on Thiago with the expectancy he's now magically a creator.

Hate him or love him, there is a huge Gini-shaped hole in our squad right now for 'function' and another hole for a proper creator so we don't need to solely rely on our full-backs providing width or our front three providing moments of excellence.

[Knight]

I'm not so sure even if everybody was healthy that we still wouldn't look somewhat easy to play through in transition.  The point of this midfield change was to free up Salah and Trent to be more attacking, not necessarily attack more themselves so to that end the change is working.

I'd have to look but have we ever started a game in a 4231 that didn't have Firmino in the 10 spot?

Yeah this might be the answer. My question though is where Trent and Salah really struggling to be 'attacking' with the old way of setting up? I'd say they were extremely attacking as it was. Salah was often our cheat player, Trent was often very, very high up the pitch on the right hand side. That said, I do think we might have changed things to enable them to attack in a different way. Two examples for that; 1. Trent was so central at points last night and 2. Salah has been a lot wider at points this season than he seems to have been in the past. Problem is, our 8s aren't there to cover in the same way they have been in previous seasons. That might be because it's harder to cover with the reshaped system. It might be that our 8s don't have the same legs we used to have in there. It might be a combination of the two. Certainly it's now the area of the team which is oldest, slowest and, by a distance, the most injury prone. That is not ideal given the demands placed on our 8s.

[storkfoot]

That'll be one hell of a signing. He is a top player.

From what I saw when AC Milan played at Anfield, I’d say no, absolutely. He lumbered around giving the ball away time and again.

Talk of him coming here is probably just the Italian Press trying to engineer a sale on behalf of a cash strapped club. Not for the first time.

Klopp is not an idiot. Far from it. He knows our midfield is getting on in years but we are a club that tries to balance the books and, after Hicks and Gillett and a global pandemic, I am happy with that. I am confident that the club has midfield talent on their radar but we’ll only pay top whack if we sell Salah for a  king’s ransom, like we did with Coutinho. Then again, who has that money now?

Actually, no, let’s not even thing about the answer to that 

[Brain Potter]

Certainly hope the midfield options are refreshed either next window but probably the summer.
Impressed with bissouma last week. Appreciate we have a limited budget but new faces are needed.

[Bergersrightwingviews]

Henderson
Thiago
Fabinho
Milner
Ox
Jones[/i]
Keita
Elliot

Bold = injury issues.  Italics = too young to be expected to start week in week out in a team going for all the big prizes.  It's pretty worrying to be honest.

In recent years, the midfield's role has to been to create the platform for the full-backs and forwards to do their thing.  It wasn't always sexy, glamorous stuff but it was vital to our success.

Now, our best engine, Henderson is showing wear and tear and picking up a lot of knocks.  Milner is great in spells, but at 105 he can't be a regular in our system.  Sure, Fabinho gets the odd knock but he is the best in the world in his position.

I adore Keita.  At his best he is just magic, but surely enough is enough now.  Same for AOC though he has never really hit the heights like Naby.  We only have room for one very talented, but injury prone lad and it should be Thiago as he seems to be available a bit more than Keita.

The midfield needs major surgery and I think we have given ourselves too much to do in too few windows.

We need to prioritise getting a hard-running jack of all trades type to be the long-term successor to Henderson.  I would take a long hard look at Rice and ask the scouts to tell us if he truly has what it takes.  After that I would find the closest player to Naby that has a body that's up to the job. 

[El Lobo]

Henderson
Thiago
Fabinho
Milner
Ox
Jones[/i]
Keita
Elliot

Bold = injury issues.  Italics = too young to be expected to start week in week out in a team going for all the big prizes.  It's pretty worrying to be honest.

In recent years, the midfield's role has to been to create the platform for the full-backs and forwards to do their thing.  It wasn't always sexy, glamorous stuff but it was vital to our success.

Now, our best engine, Henderson is showing wear and tear and picking up a lot of knocks.  Milner is great in spells, but at 105 he can't be a regular in our system.  Sure, Fabinho gets the odd knock but he is the best in the world in his position.

I adore Keita.  At his best he is just magic, but surely enough is enough now.  Same for AOC though he has never really hit the heights like Naby.  We only have room for one very talented, but injury prone lad and it should be Thiago as he seems to be available a bit more than Keita.

The midfield needs major surgery and I think we have given ourselves too much to do in too few windows.

We need to prioritise getting a hard-running jack of all trades type to be the long-term successor to Henderson. I would take a long hard look at Rice and ask the scouts to tell us if he truly has what it takes.  After that I would find the closest player to Naby that has a body that's up to the job.

[Vinay]

Before Rice, I would still look at Anguissa, Ndidi, Bissouma, Tchouameni and Kessie, first.

[Bergersrightwingviews]

Before Rice, I would still look at Anguissa, Ndidi, Bissouma, Tchouameni and Kessie, first.

Fine by me.  Isn't Bissouma facing some "legal issues" at the moment?

Not wedded to Rice, but may be on the list. Never seen Tchouameni and Kessie play, but understand they have great engines.

Would love us to get Gini back on loan in Jan if the Parisians are not using him.

[number 168]

Fine by me.  Isn't Bissouma facing some "legal issues" at the moment?

Not wedded to Rice, but may be on the list. Never seen Tchouameni and Kessie play, but understand they have great engines.

Would love us to get Gini back on loan in Jan if the Parisians are not using him.

Bissouma is curently out on bail so I doubt he will be considered. Gini is an interesting shout but would we be expected to pay his wages given his pay which is probably on the large size?

[Fiasco]

Bissouma is curently out on bail so I doubt he will be considered. Gini is an interesting shout but would we be expected to pay his wages given his pay which is probably on the large size?

Maybe Edwards is playing some kind of 4D chess. We get Gini back and pay half the wages, which might total less than he was on here

[Bergersrightwingviews]

I fully expect us to do absolutely nothing in the January transfer window.  I expect the powers that be want to see some sales before they sanction any incomings.

[killer-heels]

I fully expect us to do absolutely nothing in the January transfer window.  I expect the powers that be want to see some sales before they sanction any incomings.

Id have sympathy with them regarding the midfield.

[Sheer Magnetism]

I wonder if a solution might be to explore a back three in order to stop the through balls and provide more cover for the advancing full backs. I know we already do play that way when Fabinho's at the base of midfield, but it would potentially also enable Jones or Elliott to take Firmino's place in a number ten position behind two of Salah, Jota and Mane.

[El Lobo]

I wonder if a solution might be to explore a back three in order to stop the through balls and provide more cover for the advancing full backs. I know we already do play that way when Fabinho's at the base of midfield, but it would potentially also enable Jones or Elliott to take Firmino's place in a number ten position behind two of Salah, Jota and Mane.

Not that we couldn't necessarily make it work, but its not going to happen. He's played with 3 CBs twice in his whole time here, and both were absolute messes of a team (against Brighton with Gini and Can at CB, and against Stoke with Clyne as a wing back and Origi and Woodburn starting up top). Would seem completely at odds with anything we've done so far under him, and even now its not like we're short of CMs.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Oh yeah, I don't see it as an everyday thing, more an option which would mitigate some of the current issues in the right games. 

[rushyman]

Not that we couldn't necessarily make it work, but its not going to happen. He's played with 3 CBs twice in his whole time here, and both were absolute messes of a team (against Brighton with Gini and Can at CB, and against Stoke with Clyne as a wing back and Origi and Woodburn starting up top). Would seem completely at odds with anything we've done so far under him, and even now its not like we're short of CMs.

3-5-2 would’ve worked yesterday

But you can’t legislate for the odd game

Something has to be done about the yawning gap at RB. For me Trent has to start getting back in when we lose it quicker.

[El Lobo]

I think we've got the CBs and full backs to make it work, but then we've literally never used it since we've had the likes of VVD and Alisson so it seems almost pointless to even discuss it, unless we had a bonafide midfield emergency

[tubby]

Feels like Trent is doing everything, whipping crosses from out wide, coming inside and acting as a central playmaker, and at the same time he's expected to leg it back and get into shape as a traditional right back.  He's can just about dominate one flank, asking him to control the middle on top of that is a bit much and we're so open at the moment off the back of it.