Topic: Southampton FC general discussion thread

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Sure it's a tough start for Koeman, but it also puts him in a no lose situation career wise. If it goes tits up, regardless of the players they sign, his reputation won't be unduly affected - creating almost an entire first 11 in a window and getting them to compete well in the league is  impossible, blah, blah...

If he performs adequately, say a 14th or 15 th placed finish, he'll be commended on a job well done, if he goes any higher / closer to their last season's finish, he's going to be hailed as a miracle worker.

And so the fable manufacturing  factory that is football churns on...

[WEST HAM PAUL]

A point made by someone else but makes a valid argument i feel



I actually think what is happening to Southampton is tragic, regardless of whether you like them or not.

I know we've all known this for ages, but what's happened to Southampton proves once and for all that the majority of football clubs have zero chance to build themselves into a team that can fight it out at the top end of the league table. Football has been systematically engineered now that the same teams are the only teams who can possibly succeed in the league structure. It is literally impossible for anyone else to break through the glass ceiling.

On paper, Southampton did everything right. They built themselves up organically. They developed their own high quality players through their academy. They supplemented these with well-sourced affordable signings. They brought together a robust squad with a decent young manager and gave themselves a foundation from which, in a different era, they would feel primed to truly push on and might have fancied a stab at at a title push. There were similarities with Bobby Robson's Ipswich or Brian Clough's Forest. Football as a competition and doing the basics better than opponents in order to further your success. Players should have been thinking, 'Southampton look like they're going places, I need to be a part of that'

Can't happen these days. Teams don't rise and fall as a result of their abilities any more. Teams are concreted in place and only players and managers can move up through clubs to reach the top ends of the league. A player cannot play Champions League football at Southampton and he knows this, so he has to leave. As late as the 90s, teams like Crystal Palace, Norwich, Sheffield Wednesday, Nottm Forest were able to secure top 3 finishes in the league. Leeds got promotion and won the league within two seasons. Can’t happen now. It is impossible.

All teams outside the established top few are now feeder clubs. They are not competition to the Champions League elite. They are breeding grounds, orchards where seeds can be planted and fruit plucked when it is ready. The destruction of Southampton’s squad shows this unequivocally.

It’s an absolute tragedy.

[hollger]

I agree to a certain extent.

It would have been interesting to see how it played had Markus Liebherr survived. Perhaps the likes of Cortese and Pochettino would have then stayed and they wouldn't be in this mess.

Don't think it's quite as cut and dry as bigger fish just hoovering up their talent.

[bobby19]

Ryan Bertrand signed for them on season long loan

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Southampton FC ‏@SouthamptonFC  1m
We are delighted to welcome @ryanbertrand3 to #SaintsFC on a season-long loan from @chelseafc. #SaintRyan

 

[Redman0151]

Ryan Bertrand signed for them on season long loan

[Caston]

They're my new favourite club

[Narwin Dunez]

Bertrand + 27m for Shaw.

Good business!

[OLDIE]

Ryan Bertrand signed for them on season long loan

And breath !!!!!!!

[Packalacky]

A point made by someone else but makes a valid argument i feel



I actually think what is happening to Southampton is tragic, regardless of whether you like them or not.

I know we've all known this for ages, but what's happened to Southampton proves once and for all that the majority of football clubs have zero chance to build themselves into a team that can fight it out at the top end of the league table. Football has been systematically engineered now that the same teams are the only teams who can possibly succeed in the league structure. It is literally impossible for anyone else to break through the glass ceiling.

On paper, Southampton did everything right. They built themselves up organically. They developed their own high quality players through their academy. They supplemented these with well-sourced affordable signings. They brought together a robust squad with a decent young manager and gave themselves a foundation from which, in a different era, they would feel primed to truly push on and might have fancied a stab at at a title push. There were similarities with Bobby Robson's Ipswich or Brian Clough's Forest. Football as a competition and doing the basics better than opponents in order to further your success. Players should have been thinking, 'Southampton look like they're going places, I need to be a part of that'

Can't happen these days. Teams don't rise and fall as a result of their abilities any more. Teams are concreted in place and only players and managers can move up through clubs to reach the top ends of the league. A player cannot play Champions League football at Southampton and he knows this, so he has to leave. As late as the 90s, teams like Crystal Palace, Norwich, Sheffield Wednesday, Nottm Forest were able to secure top 3 finishes in the league. Leeds got promotion and won the league within two seasons. Can’t happen now. It is impossible.

All teams outside the established top few are now feeder clubs. They are not competition to the Champions League elite. They are breeding grounds, orchards where seeds can be planted and fruit plucked when it is ready. The destruction of Southampton’s squad shows this unequivocally.

It’s an absolute tragedy.

It's been like this since the late 90's. With the influx of champions league money, it made it impossible for the smaller clubs to compete. It's the same all over Europe. So while that post is right on principal, we didn't need what is happening at Southampton to confirm it, it's been like this for over a decade.

[Il Capitano]

Bertrand + 27m for Shaw.

Good business!

Yeah, if you're setting your club up for a season of avoiding relegation.

[Mamadou]

not just they are giving us their best players, but they are not letting us get bad players either

thats more than any fan could wish for

[BabuYagu]

A point made by someone else but makes a valid argument i feel



I actually think what is happening to Southampton is tragic, regardless of whether you like them or not.

I know we've all known this for ages, but what's happened to Southampton proves once and for all that the majority of football clubs have zero chance to build themselves into a team that can fight it out at the top end of the league table. Football has been systematically engineered now that the same teams are the only teams who can possibly succeed in the league structure. It is literally impossible for anyone else to break through the glass ceiling.

On paper, Southampton did everything right. They built themselves up organically. They developed their own high quality players through their academy. They supplemented these with well-sourced affordable signings. They brought together a robust squad with a decent young manager and gave themselves a foundation from which, in a different era, they would feel primed to truly push on and might have fancied a stab at at a title push. There were similarities with Bobby Robson's Ipswich or Brian Clough's Forest. Football as a competition and doing the basics better than opponents in order to further your success. Players should have been thinking, 'Southampton look like they're going places, I need to be a part of that'

Can't happen these days. Teams don't rise and fall as a result of their abilities any more. Teams are concreted in place and only players and managers can move up through clubs to reach the top ends of the league. A player cannot play Champions League football at Southampton and he knows this, so he has to leave. As late as the 90s, teams like Crystal Palace, Norwich, Sheffield Wednesday, Nottm Forest were able to secure top 3 finishes in the league. Leeds got promotion and won the league within two seasons. Can’t happen now. It is impossible.

All teams outside the established top few are now feeder clubs. They are not competition to the Champions League elite. They are breeding grounds, orchards where seeds can be planted and fruit plucked when it is ready. The destruction of Southampton’s squad shows this unequivocally.

It’s an absolute tragedy.

Awesome post mate and I agree entirely. What would be interesting though is if Southampton invested wisely. They now have a massive cash surplus. If they do indeed have 2 or 3 youth players ready to step up just as Chambers and Shaw have in recent seasons then I think they could be okay. All the hype about them is more about potential than what they offered right now. Clyne is, IMHO, a better player than Chambers right now so there is no problem there. Bertrand can replace Shaw with ease for a season. They need to replace Lovren and they need another forward who will give them 15 goals to replace Lambert. A creative player to unlock defences like Lallana. If Pelle works out, great. It´s unlikely though he will hit the ground running based on all historic data of forwards moving to the Premier League. Uf they could they pick up Benteke or Remy that would be good for them until Rodriguez is back from injury.

Replace Lallana with Snodgrass, as an example and I think they will be okay. Not as good on the eye as Lallana by any means but I think in a better passing side he would do well for a side pushing for european places.

The only thing I would say is would the story have been different if their owner hadn´t died? The domino effect there of losing their Director of Football (probably the most important loss IMO) then manager, then all the players had a feeling that they were on a sinking ship. I wonder if they held one of the top 7 places and kept Cortese & Pocchetino, would the players have still left? I think they would have lost Shaw regardless (and have been happy to at £30m to cover debts). Likewise Lambert & Chambers.

[rickardinho1]

A point made by someone else but makes a valid argument i feel



I actually think what is happening to Southampton is tragic, regardless of whether you like them or not.

I know we've all known this for ages, but what's happened to Southampton proves once and for all that the majority of football clubs have zero chance to build themselves into a team that can fight it out at the top end of the league table. Football has been systematically engineered now that the same teams are the only teams who can possibly succeed in the league structure. It is literally impossible for anyone else to break through the glass ceiling.

On paper, Southampton did everything right. They built themselves up organically. They developed their own high quality players through their academy. They supplemented these with well-sourced affordable signings. They brought together a robust squad with a decent young manager and gave themselves a foundation from which, in a different era, they would feel primed to truly push on and might have fancied a stab at at a title push. There were similarities with Bobby Robson's Ipswich or Brian Clough's Forest. Football as a competition and doing the basics better than opponents in order to further your success. Players should have been thinking, 'Southampton look like they're going places, I need to be a part of that'

Can't happen these days. Teams don't rise and fall as a result of their abilities any more. Teams are concreted in place and only players and managers can move up through clubs to reach the top ends of the league. A player cannot play Champions League football at Southampton and he knows this, so he has to leave. As late as the 90s, teams like Crystal Palace, Norwich, Sheffield Wednesday, Nottm Forest were able to secure top 3 finishes in the league. Leeds got promotion and won the league within two seasons. Can’t happen now. It is impossible.

All teams outside the established top few are now feeder clubs. They are not competition to the Champions League elite. They are breeding grounds, orchards where seeds can be planted and fruit plucked when it is ready. The destruction of Southampton’s squad shows this unequivocally.

It’s an absolute tragedy.

I agree to an extent. While its a very difficult task to break the top 6-7 now, if Southampton's owner hadn't died its likely that Nicola Cortese would have stayed on to continue the project they started and kicked on this summer rather than creating a climate where everyone from the manager to every player wanted to leave.

Personally I don't think they were too far off going close like Everton did if they had held onto their players and made a few signings, like a stronger goalkeeper, another CB (they were wrecked when Lovren was injured), and a striker (unfortunately for them Osvaldo didn't work out). Unfortunately we'll never know what could have been with what was an incredibly entertaining team to watch.

Btw, I think Bertrand is a very smart signing from them. He should fit them very well and will probably make a lot of people of RAWK eat their words while playing for a decent attacking team (unlike Villa). Hopefully they're keen to take one of our youngsters on loan too, you'd figure one of Ilori, Coates, Suso, Ibe, or Teixeira would benefit greatly from a season there.

[Il Capitano]

On paper, Southampton did everything right.

I don't think so. They're in this position because their owner died and, his daughter wanting to sell the club, the chairman quit following disputes with her. They also promised a whole bunch of players that they were a big project moving forwards. Those factors together were never going to be a winning combination, and it has all pretty much fallen apart following Pochettino's departure. Sure, it's more difficult than ever to gain that kind of foothold in English football, but then again the Premier League has more big clubs than any other major league in the world - it's a major challenge to get ahead of them.

[clinical]

Yeah, if you're setting your club up for a season of avoiding relegation.

we nearly got him you know

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I agree with some sentiments that have been posted in regards to how some clubs have become feeder clubs. However, Soton are in this situation because : 1. the ownership 2. director of football leaving 3. which caused Pochettino to leave and thus the project that they had is in tatters. Which made the players want to move at the first opportunity. had things stayed the way they were, I don't think any of them would have moved this summer.

[clinical]

Ryan Bertrand signed for them on season long loan

https://vine.co/v/Mh9qdu7glTm

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

https://twitter.com/BoringMilner/status/494595328184946689

[AndyInVA]

I agree with some sentiments that have been posted in regards to how some clubs have become feeder clubs. However, Soton are in this situation because : 1. the ownership 2. director of football leaving 3. which caused Pochettino to leave and thus the project that they had is in tatters. Which made the players want to move at the first opportunity. had things stayed the way they were, I don't think any of them would have moved this summer.

totally agree

if the guy had survived they were on track to do very well

[rickardinho1]

Southampton's pre-season so far:

Hoensbroek     0–4   Southampton   
Hasselt            0–6   Southampton   
Swindon Town   0–1   Southampton   
Bournemouth   0–1   Southampton

Not the biggest sides but still impressive to win all their games without conceding. Beating Brighton right now as well 1-0 with a nice Tadic goal.

Not gonna be the pushovers some people are expecting them to be despite the player exodus.

[wellred99]

Southampton's pre-season so far:

Hoensbroek     0–4Southampton
Hasselt         0–6Southampton
Swindon Town0–1Southampton
Bournemouth0–1Southampton

Not the biggest sides but still impressive to win all their games without conceding. Beating Brighton right now as well 1-0 with a nice Tadic goal.

Not gonna be the pushovers some people are expecting them to be despite the player exodus.

Means fk all mate.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Southampton's pre-season so far:

Hoensbroek     0–4   Southampton   
Hasselt            0–6   Southampton   
Swindon Town   0–1   Southampton   
Bournemouth   0–1   Southampton

Not the biggest sides but still impressive to win all their games without conceding. Beating Brighton right now as well 1-0 with a nice Tadic goal.

Not gonna be the pushovers some people are expecting them to be despite the player exodus.

Maybe you're taking the piss but

1. it's pre-season
2. that's a shite list of opposition that they're up against, they should be winning if you're going to use this to measure how they will do in the league

[Po The Panda]

Shaw would have gone regardless, not a chance he turns down Man utd on
massive wages. Still at the very worst selling 1 top player every summer and reinvesting the money would have been fine, even the likes of Dortmund and Atletico do that while remaining in the top 10 sides in the world.

[rickardinho1]

Maybe you're taking the piss but

1. it's pre-season
2. that's a shite list of opposition that they're up against, they should be winning if you're going to use this to measure how they will do in the league

Maybe I seemingly put too much emphasis on the results in my post, but my point wasn't based solely on that.

The players they still have and have brought in have been largely forgotten thus far, which I think is a same. Between Clyne, Ward-Prowse, Davis, Tadic, Pelle, Bertrand, Wanyama, and Rodriguez (not to mention Schneiderlin) they still have a more than decent starting XI that on their day might still pull off a shock or two this season.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Maybe I seemingly put too much emphasis on the results in my post, but my point wasn't based solely on that.

The players they still have and have brought in have been largely forgotten thus far, which I think is a same. Between Clyne, Ward-Prowse, Davis, Tadic, Pelle, Bertrand, Wanyama, and Rodriguez (not to mention Schneiderlin) they still have a more than decent starting XI that on their day might still pull off a shock or two this season.

Rodriguez won't be playing for another couple of months. They'll have a decent starting XI with fuck all elsewhere in the squad. They won't finish in the top ten.

[Redman0151]

Maybe I seemingly put too much emphasis on the results in my post, but my point wasn't based solely on that.

The players they still have and have brought in have been largely forgotten thus far, which I think is a same. Between Clyne, Ward-Prowse, Davis, Tadic, Pelle, Bertrand, Wanyama, and Rodriguez (not to mention Schneiderlin) they still have a more than decent starting XI that on their day might still pull off a shock or two this season.

Clyne is over rated, Bertrand, Davis mediocre, Wanyama is good but limited, Ward-Prowse is still a couple years away from being a genuine top player, Rodriguez is out and ACL injuries can ruin careers, and the rest are untested.

They've still got shite CBs,  a bad keeper, mediocrity out wide.


I have a lot of time for Southampton but hard to see them finishing top half

[rickardinho1]

Rodriguez won't be playing for another couple of months. They'll have a decent starting XI with fuck all elsewhere in the squad. They won't finish in the top ten.

I agree that their squad is really thin atm, but they do have a handsome sum in the bank that they can spend and its not even August yet. So far the players they've signed have all been good business for them (Tadic, Pelle, and Bertrand on loan) and I'd be very surprised if they didn't bring in another 2-3 players at least.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I agree that their squad is really thin atm, but they do have a handsome sum in the bank that they can spend and its not even August yet. So far the players they've signed have all been good business for them (Tadic, Pelle, and Bertrand on loan) and I'd be very surprised if they didn't bring in another 2-3 players at least.

Massive exodus, players coming in needed to gel, manager needs to establish himself in a league he's never managed before and establish a vision,plan and playing style. It's not going to be smooth for them, hence me saying they won't finish in the top ten

[robgomm]

They've just handled the situation terribly from the moment they knew players wanted out.

[Carly]

I agree that their squad is really thin atm, but they do have a handsome sum in the bank that they can spend and its not even August yet. So far the players they've signed have all been good business for them (Tadic, Pelle, and Bertrand on loan) and I'd be very surprised if they didn't bring in another 2-3 players at least.

Most of the money they have brought in is going towards paying debt off.  They owe the guts of £30 million in transfer fees to other clubs from previous windows, 
and another £30 million for their new training ground.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26813363

That past means Southampton will begin next season with a transfer debt of £27m - despite already repaying £21m of fees this season alone - but Hofstetter says that will not lead to the sale of star players such as Luke Shaw, Jay Rodriguez and Adam Lallana.

Thats exactly what happened.

They have money to spend but its says alot when they have loaned Bertrand when he was available for £8 million.  Or they could have went out and bought someone else.

Their owner isnt interested in football, looks like shes getting ready to sell the club off.

[Mamadou]

have they replaced Lovren? or they won't do that at all?

[rickardinho1]

Most of the money they have brought in is going towards paying debt off.  They owe the guts of £30 million in transfer fees to other clubs from previous windows, 
and another £30 million for their new training ground.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26813363

That past means Southampton will begin next season with a transfer debt of £27m - despite already repaying £21m of fees this season alone - but Hofstetter says that will not lead to the sale of star players such as Luke Shaw, Jay Rodriguez and Adam Lallana.

Thats exactly what happened.

They have money to spend but its says alot when they have loaned Bertrand when he was available for £8 million.  Or they could have went out and bought someone else.

Their owner isnt interested in football, looks like shes getting ready to sell the club off.

They will have earned a tidy sum on PL revenues by finishing 8th as well though. Of course how much of that is spent in transfers will depend on the owners (who seem abit stingy to say the least) but money from sales shouldn't be the only cash they have available.

They also have a young LB who is very highly rated (tarkett or something like that I think his name is) but they're not sure if he's ready to take on a starting role full time. With that in mind the Bertrand loan makes sense. They've also got an option to buy next summer which is great for them should they wish to keep him if the youngster doesn't pan out or needs more time to develop.

I don't think they'll get top 10 but IMO they'll be comfortably above relegation, probably around 12-13th.

[Drinks Sangria]

have they replaced Lovren? or they won't do that at all?

They're being linked to Rojo, De Vrij and Vlaar. I think Vlaar would be the best out of the three for them, as De Vrij could probably get a better move. It's been reported he's a target for Everton and I wouldn't be surprised to see Van Gaal make him his Fellaini (in terms of late purchase of former player) late in the window after Hummels tells them to fuck off. Rojo is too unpredictable for me.

Fonte isn't bad at all, but if they plan on consistently playing Yoshida or the hilariously error-prone Hooiveld, they're deep in the shite.

[Chris~]

De Vrij's gone to lazio.

[Drinks Sangria]

De Vrij's gone to lazio.

Van Gaal's even later to the party than I am then! When did this happen?

EDIT: Quick google search says yesterday, so I'll let myself off.

[rickardinho1]

De Vrij's gone to lazio.

Haha, and the noose tightens further around Louis' neck... Gonna have to start overpaying soon if he wants his targets

[Kochevnik]

I actually think Tadic is a very good player.  I think I said on here last summer that the two players we should go for from the Eredivisie were Bony and Tadic.  Bony came (not to us, obviously) and has done well; I think Tadic will do the same for Southampton.

[Red Genius]

Gotta feel for their fans, they've been systematically torn apart this summer from what was the best season in the top flight for donkeys years.

Infact when was the last time a club got their squad ripped up whilst remaining in the top flight? I can't recall it ever happening..

[sinnermichael]

Things have gone too far now!

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/11381874.Southampton_Airport_put_up_for_sale/