Topic: The bigger picture; £500,000 saved. A WEEK.

[Djimi Smicer34]

The reason people are excited about the signings we've made is not necessarily because of their quality, it's because they completely believe that Brendan is a wonder-worker.

Not really.  I think he and the recruitment team deserve at least some faith from supporters given what they did in January but I don't believe he's a wonder worker, I'm just happy to give the new players a fair opportunity to show what they can do.  It isn't blind faith however, I still expect further signings so I see no reason at this point to moan and talk like the sky is falling.  If we're in the same position we are now on September 2nd then I'll be angry, while there is still significant time left for us to further improve our team then I don't mind being patient.

[RedMan89]

did you get your numbers from football manager?

[Dirk18Kuyt]

We've got a better, cheaper squad than a few years back, so well done FSG etc etc.

But it's taken nearly 3 years to do this, and in that time on the field we've been nothing short of terrible to underwhelming and underachieving. We're still nowhere near a guaranteed CL football place. You can't keep cutting back the squad to the bare minimum under the pretence of saving money when it's not going to help us on the field. We need to spend to at least try and attempt to bring good players in when we currently have no CL football even if it means offering inflated wages, surely once we get the CL football and if we're sensible with money we could then afford the wages? Spurs are somehow doing it, got a fantastic team with Bale, Walker, Lennon, Parker, Dembele, Friedel, Defoe, Dawson, etc, signing the likes of Soldado, Paulinho, Chadli, Holtby, Vertonghen, Lloris, Adebayor, Dempsey and beating us to players like Sigurdsson, and unfortunately for us are genuine top 4 contenders.

We're then missing out on Mkhitaryan etc which no money would have sorted, but we still need to really try hard to push to remain with the 'big club' status to attract players. (And before anybody says 'But we're one of the biggest clubs around!' No, we're not as big as we were. Most players now are early 20's and we haven't even been a genuinely title contending big team in their lifetime, so can't even use the 'childhood fan' Robbie Keane line. Also while saving money.  It's a tough debate.

[redmark]

Not really.  I think he and the recruitment team deserve at least some faith from supporters given what they did in January but I don't believe he's a wonder worker, I'm just happy to give the new players a fair opportunity to show what they can do.  It isn't blind faith however, I still expect further signings so I see no reason at this point to moan and talk like the sky is falling.  If we're in the same position we are now on September 2nd then I'll be angry, while there is still significant time left for us to further improve our team then I don't mind being patient.

It's also about being realistic. No team in football gets every target. Madrid and United both want Bale; one or neither will succeed. We are not competing for the likes of Cavani or Falcao. We can try someone like Mkhitaryan, but not getting him is not 'failure'. We have no secret database of players unknown to the rest of the football world.

[CraigDS]

We've got a better, cheaper squad than a few years back, so well done FSG etc etc.

But it's taken nearly 3 years to do this, and in that time on the field we've been nothing short of terrible to underwhelming and underachieving. We're still nowhere near a guaranteed CL football place. You can't keep cutting back the squad to the bare minimum under the pretence of saving money when it's not going to help us on the field. We need to spend to at least try and attempt to bring good players in when we currently have no CL football even if it means offering inflated wages, surely once we get the CL football and if we're sensible with money we could then afford the wages? Spurs are somehow doing it, got a fantastic team with Bale, Walker, Lennon, Parker, Dembele, Friedel, Defoe, Dawson, etc, signing the likes of Soldado, Paulinho, Chadli, Holtby, Vertonghen, Lloris, Adebayor, Dempsey and beating us to players like Sigurdsson, and unfortunately for us are genuine top 4 contenders.

We're then missing out on Mkhitaryan etc which no money would have sorted, but we still need to really try hard to push to remain with the 'big club' status to attract players. (And before anybody says 'But we're one of the biggest clubs around!' No, we're not as big as we were. Most players now are early 20's and we haven't even been a genuinely title contending big team in their lifetime, so can't even use the 'childhood fan' Robbie Keane line. Also while saving money.  It's a tough debate.

We've done it whilst winning more than both Spurs and Arsenal have in the last 5 years.

[Djimi Smicer34]

It's also about being realistic. No team in football gets every target. Madrid and United both want Bale; one or neither will succeed. We are not competing for the likes of Cavani or Falcao. We can try someone like Mkhitaryan, but not getting him is not 'failure'. We have no secret database of players unknown to the rest of the football world.

Absolutely, there is no way to deem this transfer window a success or failure before the window closes and we can look at all of the business we do.  I'm sure there are further signings to come, we've said that we will spend and recruit players of a quality to improve our starting eleven so that will ultimately be what the club is judged on from this point on.   

[fowlermagic]

I suppose we should be concerned about our club finances as don't want any midnight cowboys selling bits of the club from the back of their pickup truck so they can fluff up their own retirement plans. As long as that is not happening then my main concern is adding to an average squad and making it a top 4 side as quickly as possible as if I was a betting man the present owners were at least expecting some European competition this season, nearly 3 years into their ownership. After their first season, even if it was well into it by time they purchased we finished 6th. The next two full seasons we finished 8th and then 7th and neither season looked like a top 4 side. Who thinks their patience will let that happen again this season or even the next two seasons? Highly doubtful although would not be surprised if we sneak into the top 4 soon or at least challenge. Challenge is a plus in the owners eyes considering the continuous reduction in our overheads while adding value to the club may make it very appealing for future buyers. The accountants will be happy but I don't see my own hopes as a fan getting reached too soon going by the thread topic.

Financial rather than on field goals seem to be the priority.

[ocecynwa]

Financial rather than on field goals seem to be the priority.


This. FSG seem to be more concerned about how many sponsor partnerships the club can get than improving the team. Sure we've got some decent players in but we're nowhere near good enough for top 4 at the moment. But hey, we've saved 500,000 quid on the wage bill!

[TitanTrigger]

Financial rather than on field goals seem to be the priority.

The two go hand in hand

[markedasred]

Today, with a month of the window left, and all of us mainly speculating, we look like we will have a better window than Spurs as Bale looks the more sold of the two. We have strengthened well since January, and Brendan has categorically stated that there are first teamers coming in. This means upgrades on presumably our weakest positions. The so called squad players already look like they have goals and playmaking in them. The (who blinks first) game with Spurs and Arsenal is about who ends up owning a prized asset in a bettered squad at the end of the window. Like when Tommy Cooper shuffled the cups and then lifts them up. Some cups will be empty, others have the gem inside.

[AnfieldRD19]

Financial rather than on field goals seem to be the priority.


This. FSG seem to be more concerned about how many sponsor partnerships the club can get than improving the team. Sure we've got some decent players in but we're nowhere near good enough for top 4 at the moment. But hey, we've saved 500,000 quid on the wage bill!

Right, so there's no correlation between the club's finances and on-field succes?

[TSC]

I think the disappointment or underwhelming feeling re transfer activity to date is probably because we seemed to race out and make a couple of signings, albeit not quite the names which are well known necessarily. But still, it almost seemed to be a statement that we were out to conclude things and move quickly. 

Since we were knocked back by the Armenian bloke, combined with the Suarez circus, all seems to have gone extremely quiet on the buying front.

Yep there is another month to go, but ideally you'd like most if not all business concluded before the season kicks off, and that first game is now 2 weeks away & approaching fast.  Slight saving grace this yr is that we've a relatively straightforward start compared to last season with a fair few winnable games.

To date for me though it's arguable as to whether we're even in a stronger position than the end of last season, even with Suarez staying.  Will depend on how well the new signings settle in.  But it's fair to say we at least need another couple of players for the first team if we've any intentions of bridging the gap between us and those further up.

[CraigDS]

I think the disappointment or underwhelming feeling re transfer activity to date is probably because we seemed to race out and make a couple of signings, albeit not quite the names which are well known necessarily. But still, it almost seemed to be a statement that we were out to conclude things and move quickly. 

Since we were knocked back by the Armenian bloke, combined with the Suarez circus, all seems to have gone extremely quiet on the buying front.

Yep there is another month to go, but ideally you'd like most if not all business concluded before the season kicks off, and that first game is now 2 weeks away & approaching fast.  Slight saving grace this yr is that we've a relatively straightforward start compared to last season with a fair few winnable games.

Totally agree with all that, especially the first two paras. Think you've hit the nail on the head there.

To date for me though it's arguable as to whether we're even in a stronger position than the end of last season, even with Suarez staying.  Will depend on how well the new signings settle in.  But it's fair to say we at least need another couple of players for the first team if we've any intentions of bridging the gap between us and those further up.

Not sure how we can be anything but stronger other than an argument for Pepe vs Mignolet. The others who have headed out (Carroll, Shelvey) were hardly involved last season. And Toure appears a straight swap for Carra currently.

[walshys_mullet]

So Skrtel looks off then. Hope to goodness we got someone lined up.

[JTK]

Brendan really doesn't mess around does he?

[ocecynwa]

Right, so there's no correlation between the club's finances and on-field succes?

Sorry, I'm missing your point. By all accounts the clubs finances are in a healthy state right now which have not transitioned to on field success. The owners and manager are on record saying that we won't overpay for players, therein lies the problem. Sure some of the players City and Chelsea are buying aren't worth what their paying for them but to get the good players you're going to have to overpay. Unfortunately not every purchase is going to have the value of a Couthino.

[TitanTrigger]

Sorry, I'm missing your point. By all accounts the clubs finances are in a healthy state right now which have not transitioned to on field success. The owners and manager are on record saying that we won't overpay for players, therein lies the problem. Sure some of the players City and Chelsea are buying aren't worth what their paying for them but to get the good players you're going to have to overpay. Unfortunately not every purchase is going to have the value of a Couthino.

The last accounts showed a 40 million loss, that was the 3rd largest in the league, only behind City and Chelsea. All of the wage bill trimming etc. is just to try to bring us back to breakeven. Once we are at breakeven we still only have the 5th highest budget in the league - behind Arsenal, City, Chelsea and United - so if we want to get back among the top we have to make our budget work better than those above us and that means not overpaying for players. When you overpay for a player all you are doing is reducing what you have to spend elsewhere.

[CraigDS]

When you overpay for a player all you are doing is reducing what you have to spend elsewhere.

And telling every other potential seller out there that we'll happily overpay for their player.

[Red-juvenated]

Over the past 2 years, FSG have made huge strides in reducing our wage bill.

I think its about time things need to level off and the next phase of the 'rebuilding' should happen this term.

I expect us to get 1 or 2 TOP players in before the end of this month.

Else we can forget CL footie for a while.

[AnfieldRD19]

Sorry, I'm missing your point. By all accounts the clubs finances are in a healthy state right now which have not transitioned to on field success. The owners and manager are on record saying that we won't overpay for players, therein lies the problem. Sure some of the players City and Chelsea are buying aren't worth what their paying for them but to get the good players you're going to have to overpay. Unfortunately not every purchase is going to have the value of a Couthino.

I actually misunderstood what you initially meant but I still disagree that you have to overpay. Think about where are club was three years ago, we constantly overpaid and it turned out we were 1 day away from going bankrupt until FSG took over. Our club was an absolute mess both on the field and financially. The only way we would change both of those problems overnight was if someone like Sheikh Mansour or Dmitry Rybolovlev bought our club and spent massive amounts of their pocket change. Unfortunately, FSG doesn't have their resources so you have to face reality that it takes time for this turnaround to happen. Our best hope is emulating a path like the one Dortmund took, who made very shrewd signings that were low risk-high reward. It's very dangerous to make these risky, high-priced signings because if they don't work out we end up being in an even bigger hole than we were before.

[Acaustiq]

Over the past 2 years, FSG have made huge strides in reducing our wage bill.

You should probably tell the accounts that because thus far there is no evidence of it.

[TepidT2O]

You should probably tell the accounts that because thus far there is no evidence of it.

Reducing wages as a % of turnover is what they have done.

Utterly agree with it too.

Irresponsible and unsustainable to have wages much over 60% of turnover.

[redmark]

Reduction of the wage bill isn't really the idea; focusing the wage bill on players who spend most time (and contribute most effectively) on the pitch, is.

[simsim]

So Skrtel looks off then. Hope to goodness we got someone lined up.

Kin 'ell from POTY to cast off in 12 months.

[Acaustiq]

Reducing wages as a % of turnover is what they have done.

By 0.7%

Irresponsible and unsustainable to have wages much over 60% of turnover.

In the last accounts it was 69.5%

According to this mob only 60% of our wage bill goes on senior players

[redmark]

According to this mob only 60% of our wage bill goes on senior players

£36m over 4 years in management payoffs and compensation. That's one clear area to improve upon (to consider particularly for those already starting to sharpen their knives).

[simsim]

£500,000 a week means £71,428.5 per day x 365 days a year = £26m.

I don't think anyone is opposed to saving money as long as it doesn't hurt the team, not only in quality but in the ability to move in the market.
The idea behind cost cutting should be creating greater funds for squad changes that turn out to be squad improvements.
If the money we save on wages won't be available to the manager in order to buy the players we need then it's all just parsimony.

Thought players get paid from the 1st of July to end of may? Could be wrong tho.

[ocecynwa]

I actually misunderstood what you initially meant but I still disagree that you have to overpay. Think about where are club was three years ago, we constantly overpaid and it turned out we were 1 day away from going bankrupt until FSG took over. Our club was an absolute mess both on the field and financially. The only way we would change both of those problems overnight was if someone like Sheikh Mansour or Dmitry Rybolovlev bought our club and spent massive amounts of their pocket change. Unfortunately, FSG doesn't have their resources so you have to face reality that it takes time for this turnaround to happen. Our best hope is emulating a path like the one Dortmund took, who made very shrewd signings that were low risk-high reward. It's very dangerous to make these risky, high-priced signings because if they don't work out we end up being in an even bigger hole than we were before.

It's all well and good saying its going to take time but the longer it takes the further behind we fall. A massive month coming up for us, just like Stevie said, we need some quality signings to push on and compete for a top 4 position.

[LiamG]

Does this mean we can sign messi for 500k a week? :p

[MULLENEDWINE]

Does this mean we can sign messi for 500k a week? :p

We're nearly there brother.

[lindylou100]

Hmm so Robinson is going out on loan too, seems a tad hasty given the cover for the left back position is threadbare at the moment

[Jehst1979]

People need to get used to the cost cutting and loaning out of players we can't sell because as long as we're out the Champions League the worse it's gonna get and the further away we'll be. Just the way it is, we are cutting the wage bill and the squad size, using the Academy players (which is a good thing to a certain extent, as long as the talent is there) because we couldn't go on the way we were...

[Jehst1979]

The reason people are excited about the signings we've made is not necessarily because of their quality, it's because they completely believe that Brendan is a wonder-worker. The logic being if Brendan chose them, he must have a way of getting exponentially more out of them than our naked eyes can see and the other clubs value them.

Looking at things objectively, the signings we've made so far this season don't really whet the appetite unless you enjoy watching some high-stakes Football Manager with this football club. People like Stevie G know what's happening hence why he's insisting on keeping Suarez potentially being the difference between us and Champions League.

spot on post this....

[TSC]

The last accounts showed a 40 million loss, that was the 3rd largest in the league, only behind City and Chelsea.

Last accounts though were for a 10 month period and are now 15 months out of date.  Since then of course new commercial deals have been signed including the Warrior deal etc.  And we've cut the wage bill, the extent of which is probably debatable.  And also I think the last set of accounts had costs in there associated with stadium design from the previous regime. I'd imagine the next set of accounts will show a different picture.  And of course even these will not include the additional revenue from the latest tv deal.

Historically (pre G&H) the club generally turned a modest profit.  But then it didn't need to necessarily make a huge profit, as it was privately owned, and generally what came in went out on players etc.  Like any business it always carried debt to some extent, but it was always serviceable debt.

[TitanTrigger]

Historically (pre G&H) the club generally turned a modest profit.  But then it didn't need to necessarily make a huge profit, as it was privately owned, and generally what came in went out on players etc.  Like any business it always carried debt to some extent, but it was always serviceable debt.

The club is still privately owned and what comes in still goes out on players etc, plus a little bit extra.

Last years accounts did not include the stadium write off, that was the year before. It did include payoffs to Kenny and staff though, bout 10m

[TSC]

The club is still privately owned and what comes in still goes out on players etc, plus a little bit extra.

Last years accounts did not include the stadium write off, that was the year before. It did include payoffs to Kenny and staff though, bout 10m

Well I mentioned the bit about the club pre G&H as there seems to be a view from some we were always struggling financially when really it was only under G&H.

Yep the club is privately owned by FSG, but behind FSG there are a host of shareholders, we only know of those with more than 10% holding.  Prior to the sale to G&H the club had been in the hands of the Moores family for decades.  Yep there were other shareholders, usually fans, latterly corporations such as Granada, with stakes, but Moores family always had the controlling interest(51%).

[CraigDS]

Well I mentioned the bit about the club pre G&H as there seems to be a view from some we were always struggling financially when really it was only under G&H.

I replied to you concerning Moores, and I wasnt meaning we were struggling financially - I more meant we were run shockingly. Even Sunderland managed to build a new ground yet due to Moores and Parry we just didn't bother.

Yep the club is privately owned by FSG, but behind FSG there are a host of shareholders, we only know of those with more than 10% holding.  Prior to the sale to G&H the club had been in the hands of the Moores family for decades.  Yep there were other shareholders, usually fans, latterly corporations such as Granada, with stakes, but Moores family always had the controlling interest(51%).

There were loads of smaller shareholders when Moores had the club.

[John C]

33 actually John. Because the 31st August and 1st September is a weekend, it finishes midnight on the 2nd September this year.

Oh Joy! Well you're not closing that Mod Shop until Jim White has turned off the lights mate.

[TitanTrigger]

Well I mentioned the bit about the club pre G&H as there seems to be a view from some we were always struggling financially when really it was only under G&H.

Sure that's true and at one stage we were among the richest clubs in the country, but that was a different era when the league was more akin to what the Championship is now. Most income came from gate receipts with a little bit of TV money and commercial income and there wasn't a huge disparity between clubs like there is now. Then United came in and started milking their commercial income, then the Champions League blew up and created a top 4, TV deals have been increasing exponentially since '92 and now we have billionaires who are spending money on clubs for other than commercial reasons. What we failed to do was maximse our commercial and stadium income when the premier league was formed and we were nearer to our glory days. Operating a football club in today's market is a completely different proposition to when the Moores family were owners.

[TSC]

I replied to you concerning Moores, and I wasnt meaning we were struggling financially - I more meant we were run shockingly. Even Sunderland managed to build a new ground yet due to Moores and Parry we just didn't bother.

There were loads of smaller shareholders when Moores had the club.

I'm not arguing we were run superbly, just that we always competed for top players and generally finished in what would now be CL spots.  We even challenged for the title on occasions, and prob should have won a couple more at least.  I know this was pre Roman and City etc.  Moores sold simply because he realised he was struggling to get investment for a stadium.  He wasn't a risk taker by any stretch, and the club grew stale, probably resting on its laurels for far too long under that regime.

Yep I did post Moores family always had controlling interest but that there were smaller shareholders, these were generally supporters, albeit the wealthier type.  Their benefits during these periods were getting first dibs on cup final tickets etc ahead of ST holders.