Topic: Marvel Musings. Now with Spidey Spoilers.

[demain]

I watched Echo yesterday, was fairly meh.

They've watered down Kingpin into a cartoon caricature that keeps getting beaten up in fights, a far cry from the portrayal in the Netflix series.

[kaesarsosei]

Another Disney/Marvel production with initial big hype that turns out to be "meh" at best? Colour me surprised.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

Ive watched the first three episodes tonight and it really does feel more like the Netflix stuff than the recent Marvel stuff. Only, just a bit watered down.

I can see they really are trying to build up a lot of future projects based around Kingpin and New York now, which I like the idea of.

[Scottymuser]

Who will be bringing the hype in the next Avengers? Captain Marvel isn't really popular with fans; we've not seen Shang-Chi, the Eternals or Ant-Man outside their mediocre-at-best solo films; new Captain America has barely been set up; Guardians have disbanded... Kang was their trump card and that's on a knife edge as to whether they'll be forced to recast/scrap him.

Think the only chance of them making an Avengers film that rivals Infinity War/Endgame is if they manage to ace the X-Men and Fantastic 4 reboots, and then bring them together with Spider-Man and maybe some of the OG heroes like Thor and the Guardians returning after a hiatus. And have them up against an established Doctor Doom.

Captain Marvel isn't popular with the incels and right wing twats, mostly - who cares what they think.  Shang Chi and Ant Man 1 (2 is good, and 3 sub-par) are much much better than "mediocre" (I have both around the 12-17 spot, overall).  Eternals is dire though, agreed.  Guardians were always in space, so never made sense to include them in an Avengers line up.  I'd argue that the character of Sam Wilson has definitely had a lot of setup and audience good will  - so hopefully that is a good start; it will be interesting to see what they do with Bucky going forward as the pair of them definitely developed a decent chemistry.

[sambhi92]

Captain Marvel isn't popular with the incels and right wing twats, mostly - who cares what they think.  Shang Chi and Ant Man 1 (2 is good, and 3 sub-par) are much much better than "mediocre" (I have both around the 12-17 spot, overall).  Eternals is dire though, agreed.  Guardians were always in space, so never made sense to include them in an Avengers line up.  I'd argue that the character of Sam Wilson has definitely had a lot of setup and audience good will  - so hopefully that is a good start; it will be interesting to see what they do with Bucky going forward as the pair of them definitely developed a decent chemistry.

No offense mate but i'm neither of these things and she aint popular with me! The movies of her are poor and her as a character isnt very good. Captain Marvel has that same feel that Superman does, you cant make a good film about them because they are just too powerful so whats the point

[Scottymuser]

No offense mate but i'm neither of these things and she aint popular with me! The movies of her are poor and her as a character isnt very good. Captain Marvel has that same feel that Superman does, you cant make a good film about them because they are just too powerful so whats the point

Fair enough.  I strongly disagree with your thoughts on the first Captain Marvel film (I rate it as a 7-7.5/10); but can see why some disliked the marvels (I really enjoyed it, and had a huge grin and laughed loads throughout the movie) and acknowledge that is much more a mixed bag.  But you only have to look at why Captain Marvel is rated as lower than, say, Iron Man 2 (which was utter garbage) on imdb to understand my point (a fairly normal Gaussian distribution but with a huge spike of 1/10 ratings) and lots of online campaigns at the time to downvote it there and metacritic.

I see where you are coming from regarding it is difficult to make a "super powerful" being appear normal for a film - but I'd argue they did a pretty good job in the first film as she was slowly coming into her powers - at least compared to mostly all Superman films ever.

[Schmidt]

The Marvels - Enjoyed it more than I thought I would. Last minute reshoots are often a bad sign and Marvel have got into the habit of changing their minds and ripping things up last minute, which always seems to end badly. I thought the story was cohesive enough, the characters worked well together and the effects were better than the trailers looked like they would be. It wasn't incredible, the action was very run of the mill with lots of energy blasts and they never really made good use of the body switching, but it was fun and it's good to see some of the newly established characters get used.

Spoiler

It'd be interesting if Captain Marvel lost a lot of her power restarting that sun, otherwise they'll need to constantly come up with ways to cripple her or remove her temporarily to keep things interesting.

[close]

Echo - Made me feel slightly less negative about the upcoming Daredevil show, I've always felt like Marvel would bottle it and make something a bit more fun for the whole family, and his cameo in She-Hulk didn't exactly inspire confidence. The show itself is pretty good, the showrunners obviously like Reservation Dogs since they yoinked half of the cast, and the action was pretty decent. I don't like forcing every show to be so short though, Some of the Netflix stuff suffered because the seasons were just too long, and it feels like Disney are causing themselves similar problems.

I'm a bit sick of Kingpin at this point, he's becoming a bit of a caricature of the Netflix incarnation, and seeing him just constantly survive/escape everything gets a bit tedious.

I'm also tired of shows that put their main character in situations where they should really just die, with no backup plan, but they don't because the story demands it. It happens in Echo a couple of times, it happens in Reacher a fair bit and it's just a general trend of lazy writing I've been noticing.

[Barefoot Doctor]

Thought Echo was incredibly, incredibly dull. Had hoped for more, but just couldn't get into it at all, and found it very slow despite only being five relatively short episodes.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Supposedly Spiderman 4 villain is one which has not yet been adapted to live action

My guess would be Scorpion, Mister Negative, Hobgoblin, or Kraven

[sambhi92]

Supposedly Spiderman 4 villain is one which has not yet been adapted to live action

My guess would be Scorpion, Mister Negative, Hobgoblin, or Kraven

All very bad options IMO. They dont have enough about them to get hype going for a whole film.

Should be Venom and build their universe around the two of them. You can have Vemon as the main bad for first half of film. Then introduce carnage and then the two team up to face him. Throw in a couple of MCU  teaser, maybe dr doom pulling the strings int he background?

would be my ideal to setup everything going fwd

[Nitramdorf]

Supposedly Spiderman 4 villain is one which has not yet been adapted to live action

My guess would be Scorpion, Mister Negative, Hobgoblin, or Kraven

Isnt Kraven already in the pipeline for his own film? I might be talking crap but sure I read that somewhere.

Edit: Just saw theres a trailer https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8790086/

[Stockholm Syndrome]

All very bad options IMO. They dont have enough about them to get hype going for a whole film.

Should be Venom and build their universe around the two of them. You can have Vemon as the main bad for first half of film. Then introduce carnage and then the two team up to face him. Throw in a couple of MCU  teaser, maybe dr doom pulling the strings int he background?

would be my ideal to setup everything going fwd

I think that's a bit much for one film honestly. And Venom IMHO works best with him being a part of Peter first before being split. I feel you can do 2 or 3 films on Venom and the Symbiotes alone. You can turn Symbiotes invasion into an Avengers level threat. It's also such a beloved story I don't think you want to blow Venom and Carnage in one film

Kraven is hot as anything at the moment after Spiderman 2. Kraven is also synonymous with symbiote spiderman too (again with the game and with Kraven's last hunt)

With Scorpion as well it would be better if it is him being funded/backed by Kingpin.

You could also as a side antagonist have Prowler which allows you to launch into bringing in Miles Morales.

I wouldn't mind Scorpion, Prowler, and Vulture, backed by Kingpin and having to be stopped by Spiderman (in the symbiote suit) and Miles, then end with Peter rejecting the symbiote and it going to Eddie Brock.

And personally I wouldn't mind Mister Negative I think he's a pretty interesting new villain.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Isnt Kraven already in the pipeline for his own film? I might be talking crap but sure I read that somewhere.

Edit: Just saw theres a trailer https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8790086/

He is yes - not sure how much Sony is going to bleed in now especially with how crap their films are/look (I think Kraven and Madame Web are going to be Morbius levels bad), but yeah my Kraven guess is leaning heavily on the Yet, because he hasn't been on film YET

[[new username under construction]]

Supposedly Spiderman 4 villain is one which has not yet been adapted to live action

My guess would be Mister Negative

I'm not sure having one of the Mr Men as a bad guy would work

[Barefoot Doctor]

All very bad options IMO. They dont have enough about them to get hype going for a whole film.

All about how you adapt them. I wouldn’t have thought Vulture or Mysterio would be weighty enough to be a main villain but both were very good adaptations IMO. Particularly Vulture, thanks to Keaton’s brilliant turn.

My only exposure to Mr Negative was the first PlayStation game and thought he was a really good villain so that would interest me. To be honest my hope is they go much more street level. A classic Spider-Man tale where he’s not reliant on Stark Tech or Dr Strange magic - that seemed to be what they set up at the end of No Way Home and is the way forward IMO. I’d park MJ and Ned, maybe bring in other big supporting characters like Harry or Gwen. Have Kingpin as a big threat, maybe the likes of Tombstone and Mr Negative as other crime lords. 

Personally think the next film will introduce Miles Morales in a big way - he’s so popular as a character now and they’ll want him in live action asap. Whether that’s in a Marvel Spidey film or a Sony one remains to be seen.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

All about how you adapt them. I wouldn’t have thought Vulture or Mysterio would be weighty enough to be a main villain but both were very good adaptations IMO. Particularly Vulture, thanks to Keaton’s brilliant turn.

My only exposure to Mr Negative was the first PlayStation game and thought he was a really good villain so that would interest me. To be honest my hope is they go much more street level. A classic Spider-Man tale where he’s not reliant on Stark Tech or Dr Strange magic - that seemed to be what they set up at the end of No Way Home and is the way forward IMO. I’d park MJ and Ned, maybe bring in other big supporting characters like Harry or Gwen. Have Kingpin as a big threat, maybe the likes of Tombstone and Mr Negative as other crime lords. 

Personally think the next film will introduce Miles Morales in a big way - he’s so popular as a character now and they’ll want him in live action asap. Whether that’s in a Marvel Spidey film or a Sony one remains to be seen.

Would love to see Gwen, and Harry could be a very interesting character to bring in considering alternative Norman killed Aunt May - you have their universe Norman and Harry and see how Peter reacts, particularly if it is Symbiote Peter/Spiderman.

[sambhi92]

I love spider-man but i actually feel like his best moment on screen is when hes part of the MCU and there is wider MCU implications to his films.

I dont think the spider characters alone can make a good film, he needs a Iron-Man, Dr Strange to make the film good imo.

a Kingpin Arc would be pretty cool, maybe Kingpin brings together the insidious six which would be amazing. But defo feel like he needs a major movie arc is needed for him, Venom, Kingpin or maybe set up the secret wars with Dr Doom

[Redley]

I love spider-man but i actually feel like his best moment on screen is when hes part of the MCU and there is wider MCU implications to his films.

I dont think the spider characters alone can make a good film, he needs a Iron-Man, Dr Strange to make the film good imo.

a Kingpin Arc would be pretty cool, maybe Kingpin brings together the insidious six which would be amazing. But defo feel like he needs a major movie arc is needed for him, Venom, Kingpin or maybe set up the secret wars with Dr Doom

The last Spiderman was terrific, and I know it had Dr Strange in but he's not getting much screen time in it. Certainly wouldnt say it needed him to make it a good film.

[Draex]

I love spider-man but i actually feel like his best moment on screen is when hes part of the MCU and there is wider MCU implications to his films.

I dont think the spider characters alone can make a good film, he needs a Iron-Man, Dr Strange to make the film good imo.

a Kingpin Arc would be pretty cool, maybe Kingpin brings together the insidious six which would be amazing. But defo feel like he needs a major movie arc is needed for him, Venom, Kingpin or maybe set up the secret wars with Dr Doom

and Spiderman has been done to death because it wasn't in the MCU, we're on what the 3rd run of basically the same story arc.

It's Dr Doom next right? I thought he was the next big bad boss.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

I love spider-man but i actually feel like his best moment on screen is when hes part of the MCU and there is wider MCU implications to his films.

I dont think the spider characters alone can make a good film, he needs a Iron-Man, Dr Strange to make the film good imo.

a Kingpin Arc would be pretty cool, maybe Kingpin brings together the insidious six which would be amazing. But defo feel like he needs a major movie arc is needed for him, Venom, Kingpin or maybe set up the secret wars with Dr Doom

I have to disagree. As big as MCU is Spiderman still generally reigns supreme as the best superhero to many, and now especially with Miles and Gwen getting a lot of love to, I think you can absolutely do a very new york centric Spiderman only tale without the other avengers. In fact if anything I felt the other avengers detracted from Spiderman in his films in the MCU.

Kingpin and crony villains (Scorpion, Shocker, Rhino, Vulture, etc) works great for a New York centric Spiderman,  I think Kraven works great as a villain for a NY centric Spiderman hunting the greatest game with little regard for the hunting ground (New York). Same with Mister Negative as a new crime boss on the scene he is an interesting one to me
And again all work with Symbiote Spiderman as you have Spiderman going hyper aggressive against ultimately just criminals (rather than world ending villains). If you introduce Miles as well it becomes interesting again - you open up perhaps your big ending being Spiderman vs Spiderman (Peter  symbiote corrupted and Miles trying to save him)

Again I think you can make a whole Symbiote Saga arc rather than one film linked to Doom as the overarching villain of Avengers. Let Peter be evil tainted, then have a Venom and possibly Carnage film after that too, rather than have that as one film. There's a lot there to work with.

I feel the symbiote invasion itself can be an Avengers villain (leading to Peter taking over the Tony role in the avengers as was teased in the films, and Miles taking over Spiderman mantle street level)

[Stockholm Syndrome]

I also feel with Peter being on his own again now, there is room for Black Cat somewhere as a complicated ally (and complicated love interest)

[Barefoot Doctor]

The Marvels on Disney+ from tomorrow. Will give it a watch but have no real expectations for it.

[killer-heels]

The Marvels on Disney+ from tomorrow. Will give it a watch but have no real expectations for it.

Its super meh.

[SP]

I'm not sure having one of the Mr Men as a bad guy would work

I want to see a heist movie with the Mr Men.

[gazzalfc]

The Marvels on Disney+ from tomorrow. Will give it a watch but have no real expectations for it.

It got reshot and focus grouped to death. The Khan family parts were probably the best bit

[LiamG]

Looks like the new Captain America film has been getting a tonne of reshoots as well

[classycarra]

marvel's method is cooked. can't make a solid film anymore

[RedDeadRejection]

They're finished.

[Scottymuser]

marvel's method is cooked. can't make a solid film anymore

At least it's better than DC, who have made what, 2 solid films EVER since they went to the same model of a shared universe (the original Wonder Woman, and the original Shazam!).  I know I would still far rather watch an MCU film than a DCEU film.  Thats out of 16 films.  Hell, last year alone had GOTG3, which was a fantastic film.  2022 you had both Black Panther 2 and Doctor Strange 2, both of which was pretty good (certainly better than 14 of the 16 DCEU films), and in 2021 you had Shang Chi and No Way Home, both of which were fantastic.

[classycarra]

At least it's better than DC, who have made what, 2 solid films EVER since they went to the same model of a shared universe (the original Wonder Woman, and the original Shazam!).  I know I would still far rather watch an MCU film than a DCEU film.  Thats out of 16 films.  Hell, last year alone had GOTG3, which was a fantastic film.  2022 you had both Black Panther 2 and Doctor Strange 2, both of which was pretty good (certainly better than 14 of the 16 DCEU films), and in 2021 you had Shang Chi and No Way Home, both of which were fantastic.

talk about damning with faint praise!

[Schmidt]

At least it's better than DC, who have made what, 2 solid films EVER since they went to the same model of a shared universe (the original Wonder Woman, and the original Shazam!).  I know I would still far rather watch an MCU film than a DCEU film.  Thats out of 16 films.  Hell, last year alone had GOTG3, which was a fantastic film.  2022 you had both Black Panther 2 and Doctor Strange 2, both of which was pretty good (certainly better than 14 of the 16 DCEU films), and in 2021 you had Shang Chi and No Way Home, both of which were fantastic.

Black Panther 2 was pretty shit but in general I agree. DC's best stuff has been side movies like The Batman and Joker, movies that didn't get meddled to death.

[killer-heels]

Black Panther 2 was terrible.

[Trada]

They are saying there maybe a trailer or teaser for Deadpool 3 during the Super Bowl

[BER]

At least it's better than DC, who have made what, 2 solid films EVER since they went to the same model of a shared universe (the original Wonder Woman, and the original Shazam!).  I know I would still far rather watch an MCU film than a DCEU film.  Thats out of 16 films.  Hell, last year alone had GOTG3, which was a fantastic film.  2022 you had both Black Panther 2 and Doctor Strange 2, both of which was pretty good (certainly better than 14 of the 16 DCEU films), and in 2021 you had Shang Chi and No Way Home, both of which were fantastic.

Spot the MCU fanboy. A whole paragraph about DC even though no one even mentioned them.

Gunn's Suicide Squad and Peacemaker is "better than/as good as" anything the MCU has put out in the same time, fwiw, and he'll probably knock it out of the park with Superman.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

They are saying there maybe a trailer or teaser for Deadpool 3 during the Super Bowl

Wearing a Wrexham shirt no doubt.

[Red Viper]

The Marvels sadly died on their way back to their home planet.

[Barefoot Doctor]

There's at least a realisation at Disney that Marvel sucks right now. Bob Iger, their Chief Exec, was saying that turning Marvel round is their biggest focus and that there's been far too much focus on quantity over quality.

Also seemed to suggest they'll refocus on their biggest characters/franchises, which is probably in response to movies like Ant Man 3 and The Marvels bombing. Presume they'll lean very heavily into The Avengers, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four and X-Men.

There's actually not a ton penned in for the future so they do have some wiggle room. Thunderbolts and Blade in pre-production, I reckon they get made but maybe not with much of a hope of success. And then Armor Wars and Shang Chi 2 in development, wouldn't be surprised if both of those get binned.

[Schmidt]

There's at least a realisation at Disney that Marvel sucks right now. Bob Iger, their Chief Exec, was saying that turning Marvel round is their biggest focus and that there's been far too much focus on quantity over quality.

Also seemed to suggest they'll refocus on their biggest characters/franchises, which is probably in response to movies like Ant Man 3 and The Marvels bombing. Presume they'll lean very heavily into The Avengers, Spider-Man, Fantastic Four and X-Men.

There's actually not a ton penned in for the future so they do have some wiggle room. Thunderbolts and Blade in pre-production, I reckon they get made but maybe not with much of a hope of success. And then Armor Wars and Shang Chi 2 in development, wouldn't be surprised if both of those get binned.

I don't think it's just a lack of quality, they seem to be focus-grouping their movies to death with lots of late reshoots and edits. Also while I hate a lot of the anti-woke stuff, it does feel like they're prioritising diversity to a fault. Politics seems to be bleeding into movies and games far too much, people don't want to be lectured about their gender during a popcorn movie.

[Nitramdorf]

Just watched The Marvels. Like a lot of things lately I have no idea what's going on. Ended up not pausing it when I left the room for a bit, it was just a film which was on.

I was very impressed with the white vest though.

[DarkOfTheManatee]

 

Just watched The Marvels. Like a lot of things lately I have no idea what's going on. Ended up not pausing it when I left the room for a bit, it was just a film which was on.

I was very impressed with the white vest though.

Yeah, I can no longer tell whether I don't understand things because I missed a TV series or because they're just not bothering to explain them.

How are Ms Marvel and Monica able to fight the Kree to a similar level of effectiveness as Captain Marvel, when the latter is basically Superman even without using her energy powers? Do they have super toughness/strength too?

Was the cat laying eggs something it's done before, or was it just thrown in out of nowhere halfway through the film to set up a funny set-piece?

Is Nick Fury's completely different personality because he's no longer a Skrull and this was his normal personality all along?

No idea.

It was a film where things just happen and there's no connective tissue or through-line to make them feel meaningful or earned, maybe because it got butchered in the edit or had ten different writers doing uncredited script rewrites. We just rush around, characters have conflict that gets quickly and painlessly resolved, and there are slick fight scenes with no weight or jeopardy. Captain Marvel restarts a sun with apparent ease despite saying she'd never done anything like that before. Was it hard for her to do that, as the big climax of the film?

No idea.

Ms Marvel and her family were the best part because they actually had some personality and reacted to events with something other than determined stoicism or a quip. The musical planet was a fun idea but could've been more of a showstopper than it was (plus that whole civilisation was presumably condemned to a horrific death five minutes later when all their water got taken). And those were probably the only two things I'll remember in a week's time.