Topic: Round Table: Wigan v Liverpool

[JohnnoWhite]

I wouldn't say that Vul. It's a pretty long post that.  .  .   

[L666KOP]

Very strange game indeed.
And yet it felt more satisfying than most this season. Our record against Wigan is frankly shocking, and has been for quite a while, but once Downing nodded in after just 2 minutes I felt a strange calm inside. I knew we would cruise it. Proof positive that 'owning' the ball does not equate to controlling the game, Rafa proved it countless times. Suarez looks to have two players on a similar wavelength, which gives us genuine options, although he looks a better player when he occupies the central berth, also think Brendan played a masterstroke in giving Allen the nod, a real confidence booster against a 'weak' midfield.
The only downsides were the fact that we allowed them 3/4 real chances, and had it not been for Pepe's resurgence over the last few weeks this could well have turned into another 'day at Wigan'. I could also be critical that we switched off at four nil, but I suppose resting will help with the recovery, and perhaps the players wanted an early dart, so decided to do their warmdown early.
Coutinho looks bright, and I think he'll be another worry for our opposition once he gets a good preseason under his belt, you can just tell he's going to be featuring an awful lot. Pepe is continuing on his upward trend which is nice to see.
Next week will be a good test of how far we've come this season, I'm quite looking forward to using it as a real benchmark, win lose or draw we'll know just how we are doing.
Brendan's biggest job for me now is to see whether he can keep the group motivated enough to compete until the end of the season, a real push now could see one or two surprises before the end of the season, we need to apply pressure to the teams above us, I ain't getting overly excited, but if we could get the gap between us and Chelsea below five points when we play them it will be an interesting last few games. Realistically we should be looking at 5th at best, but, let's see how Chelsea and Arsenal react when we start to close the gap.
Over to you Brendan.

[JohnnoWhite]

I think the bit about keeping them playing / motivated when they've exited all comps is a very good point and a very big challenge for Rodgers.

If he can successfully ask for/demand/provoke/bully a solid and committed response out of his charges between now and season end when there's little other than self, professional AND fan-directed RESPECT left to play for (except beinbg at Liverpool next season!) then for me that will be a considerable achievement.
In my view, it would be a very real indicator that he has - at least from the player's viewpoint - truly "arrived" and filled that manager's seat.

[Albanian-red]

a little off topic but we really dodged a bullet with Martinez

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

I'd echo much of what is written above; overall it was a weird match for me - after the Downing goal went in I had no doubt we would be cruising to a victory but I dont think our general performance was as good as many others we have witnessed this season.

Thank God Pepe and Lucas look to be recovering their form - our general pressing was good however we could easily have conceeded three or four times on another day.


Coutinho looks fantastic  - his game intelligence and vision is going to be a real asset for us. If Sturridge can learn to be more clinical, other teams are going to crap themselves when facing us due to the sheer number of optiions we have.

One thing I would just mention though is that our whole system relies on us being able to keep possession and play quick passes under pressure - in fact the more pressure the man with the ball is under the more openings are created for us to exploit. The ONLY way for the players to improve in this regard is to play a passing game all the time; watching Swansea nervelessly pass the ball around at the back is where we should be aiming at the minimum. Sometimes hoofing the ball out of defence might be the right choice in that instant but ff the players are encouraged to do this they will never reach the critical mass required to learn to play possession football under pressure. It's an investment.

I thought it was vital that we kept the clean sheet - probably more so than the margin we won by. Rodgers has made alterations to his original vision for teh way we play and im not convinved even this modified system is working for us defensively or whether the upturn in players' form and the new signings have helped more. What it does give us is confidence until the squad fully understand what it is they're meant to be doing.

I would have been interested to know how we would have done had we signed Sturridge in Summer and front-loaded our purchases before the next window where the extra TV money will push prices up everywhere but we're not far away. If we push on to get some consistency in our game 4th is still a (tiny) outside bet - last season we effectively gave up on the chase far too early.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

a little off topic but we really dodged a bullet with Martinez

likewise you could say we missed out on the lottery with simeone

[JohnnoWhite]

Albanian-red posted:- a little off topic but we really dodged a bullet with Martinez

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Think that's a bit unfair meself mate. He's done a job on not a lot more than a shoestring at Wigan - and I like the fella. You always get honesty and his players to my mind always try to play football.

You can argue he's going to have a battle on his hands to pull them safe once again but tarring him with  a "dodging the bullet" brush is a bit OTT in my view.

[Hank Scorpio]

Am i the only one who thinks that pass wasn't 'perfectly weighted'? I thought it was a bit overplayed and it was Suarez's magnificently deft first touch that put him in a perfect position to score. There was a gif of that goal in some thread, don't recall which.

I know you addressed this in subsequent posts with PoP, but I'd like to add that I thought that was an excellent pass.  We haven't seen a Liverpool player play that type of pass for a long, long time.  Maybe Benayoun had it in him, but it wasn't delivered with any consistency.  Coutinho's delivered it in 2 starts and played another superb ball to Sturridge in the Swansea game. 

The way I see it is that Coutinho has very little time to play that pass.  It's because Suarez is on the move and the gap between right back and centre half is around 5 yards and closing.  It's great vision, quick thinking and superb execution.  I would say most midfield players don't see that pass because they see the defenders closing the gap, the danger of under/over hitting the pass.  So they'll play it wide to Enrique.  But that pass is a great asset because defences think they have it covered.

It's so ridiculously simple, that it is genius.

[JohnnoWhite]

I totally agree Hank.

MassDriver is doing the lad a disservice here - and in a way it's kind of understandable.

I think it's very rare you see that kind of quality ball played at all in today's 120 mph stuff.

Good stuff and lovely to see little blokes with big skills having the balls to play that way.

[L666KOP]

Albanian-red posted:- a little off topic but we really dodged a bullet with Martinez

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Think that's a bit unfair meself mate. He's done a job on not a lot more than a shoestring at Wigan - and I like the fella. You always get honesty and his players to my mind always try to play football.

You can argue he's going to have a battle on his hands to pull them safe once again but tarring him with  a "dodging the bullet" brush is a bit OTT in my view.

I agree Jonno, he's done remarkably well, his time will come though, but I think he's in danger of becoming too 'comfortable' there, he needs to make the jump. Or he'll end up like Moyes has at Everton, and stagnate. Sometimes you need to move just to set yourself a new challenge, and I think Martinez is now ready for that move.
Nice football, and an eye for a player as well.

[fowler9_god]

snip
     

I agree about the 3rd midfielder. From what I see both Allen and Henderson offer things to the side, but at times I still feel we might get overrun there. What I'd like to add is a physical , attacking player. Someone like a Yaya Toure or a Guarin. People who can steamroll past players and are good on the ball. They'll cost a bomb but it'll completely add a different dimension to the side. It'll help us in set plays from a defensive perspective as well. Might also double up as Lucas's deputy. Its two players in one really. Henderson and Allen have time to develop. I'd like to see them game time as Gerrard cannot continue forever. Especially with him playing so many games this season. If we qualify for Europe, you'd like to see 5 good CMs at the club. Especially as we play 3 most games.

Someone was talking about the right hand side. I'd like to see a non flashy player, who works hard but can chip in with 10-15 goals. You cannot build a completely flashy side IMO. Someone like a Milner but with goals. Solid but a 7/8 every game. The problem with Downing, and even when he got into such a good goal scoring position is that he doesn't make those runs enough. Plus with Glen on the right side, you'd want someone who can cover for him. Can Borini be that player? Lets hope so.

The signs are positive. I don't think we played as well as we could, which is always a good sign.

[GrkStav]

One more thing I'd like to add. Although I'd consider Phillip Lahm the best full back in the world (both left and right) I don't think there's a full back in the world who could've done what Glen Johnson did when he set up Suarez. I think that was an absolutely oustanding piece of play in and of itself but the fact that not many wingers, let alone full backs could've pulled it off is all the more special. Power, pace, balance, strength and then a perfect pass to Suarez to set up the goal. Coutinho's rightly been getting praised here and in the media but Johnson's assist was just a fantastic bit of football from a fantastic footballer.


[snip]

But what about the rest of Johnson's performance? How does his excellent play going forward, at times, make him a "fantastic footballer"?

[No666]

Someone was talking about the right hand side. I'd like to see a non flashy player, who works hard but can chip in with 10-15 goals. You cannot build a completely flashy side IMO. Someone like a Milner but with goals. Solid but a 7/8 every game. The problem with Downing, and even when he got into such a good goal scoring position is that he doesn't make those runs enough. Plus with Glen on the right side, you'd want someone who can cover for him. Can Borini be that player? Lets hope so.

I'm struggling to understand this. Non-flashy? Do you mean, lesser-skilled? We have two attacking players, in Suarez and Coutinho, displaying only on Saturday that a 'flashy' player can also show impeccable work-rate and yet you somehow seem to be adhering to a mind-set that distinguishes between the two attributes.

[Frizzo]

Just two little things I haven't seen mentioned that I absolutely loved...

Stewart Downing's raking outside of the foot pass to Enrique (I think) was an absolutely sublime bit of skill in an extremely solid performance from a much improved footballer.

Also, on Suarez's hat trick goal, where was Coutinho? Making a run to the back post just in case? Of course he was. We now have numerous players willing and able to make these runs (even the aforementioned downing made a lovely little run and jink to the back post for his goal).

Encouraging signs all round.

[JohnnoWhite]

Plus the bit about who can cover Johnson which is a bit of a strange reaction - given the oozing class of the attacking options Coutinho and Suarez demonstrated at Wigan on Saturday.

[Albanian-red]

Albanian-red posted:- a little off topic but we really dodged a bullet with Martinez

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Think that's a bit unfair meself mate. He's done a job on not a lot more than a shoestring at Wigan - and I like the fella. You always get honesty and his players to my mind always try to play football.

You can argue he's going to have a battle on his hands to pull them safe once again but tarring him with  a "dodging the bullet" brush is a bit OTT in my view.

i like the fella too mate, but i dont think fighting to avoid relegation season after season is such a achievement...his sexy football is being very counterproductive, and i can see them next season playing in the championship

[sattapaartridge]

God I love the type of football we play now. It really does remind me of the Roy Evans era even though we're playing 4-2-3-1 rather than 3-5-2.

[barbudo]

Stewart Downing's raking outside of the foot pass to Enrique (I think) was an absolutely sublime bit of skill in an extremely solid performance from a much improved footballer.

You're right. But amongst all the (deserved) praise for Coutinho in here, there's a fact that I haven't seen mentioned, and that is that one of the reasons he was able to express himself was because he was well supplied with passes, particularly from Enrique. Downing, in contrast, was underutilized. I can only remember one occasion that Johnson passed the ball to him. I don't know why we don't use that outlet pass more, but it's been a feature of our play for the last month or two.
 

[JSterling]

I was waiting at a bus stop and watching this match, luckily no one was around to see me go apeshit when we kept knocking them in. Coutinho was fantastic, he's not top speed fast but his burst of speed is impressive, not to mention his vision, we've been missing that player who can spot a run and has the talent to do something about it (Gerrard aside). Also because he is short I think defenders kept losing him in their peripheral vision, he had acres of space at times.
Say what you want about Rodgers, the players he's bought and what he's gotten out of players like Downing has been impressive. This is the sort of victory we should start seeing more and more often as the team progresses.

[Mutton Geoff]

Won 4-0 not one bad player on the pitch for us and new super talent in our number ten role, and still some people moan, there is rarely a perfect performance on a football pitch for the full 90+ minutes,

i think some people have their expectations of players way too high, i see nothing to be negative about at all in the Wigan game so lets carry on with that energy and skill to the next one and adding Sturridge to the mix as well.

Edited for clarity,

[Halibut-Thumb]

Contrast this with 12 months ago and you see a team packed with goals as opposed to at team where you didn't know where one would come from. The quality of players in attack isnt that vastly different, other than Coutinho and Sturridge its the same lads. Just the confidence and flow is much improved. Gerrard, Johnson, Enrique, Suarez and Downing are all in much better form and look much more dangerous. This team look like they can put 5 past anyone, and the confidence is building now that it hasnt been a one off but a regular occurrence to pull teams apart in the last few months.. Keep this progression up and we will be one of the mots dangerous teams in world football in a year or two. The potential is frightening, it really feels like consistency is coming its only a matter of time, between now and May its all about building that confidence, wherever we end up we need momentum heading into next season. A full preseason with this squad plus whoever comes in over the summer and we should be able to compete with the two manc clubs next season I really believe that.

[GrkStav]

So, after a victory, and a comprehensive score-wise away victory with a clean sheet to boot, there should be neither analysis nor critique of individual performances, team performance, managerial personnel-selection decisions, etc.

If any of that appears, it is to be equated to "moaning".

[woof]

Fantastic result. Great goals. We weren't at our best though. I thought our passing was sloppy and could have been punished. Is it our mentality? We can't play like that against Spurs. We saw how Bale and Lennon punished Arsenal even though they didn't "control the match".

Plus points:
1. Coutinho - what a talent and what a steal for under Ł9m. His movement and awareness caused Wigan's defence all sorts of problem. I like his work ethic too. Fantastic to watch his link up with Suarez.
2. Reina - best game of the season. Brilliant saves. Great to see he's gaining good form at the right time
3. Suarez - who said he can't score? We supporters argued till the cows come home about how he's a creator and not one to put the ball into the net. He's proving us wrong. Really want to see him win Golden Boots and Player of the Year.
4. Lucas - inching back to his best form

The early goals really won the game. After that, Wigan imploded although they got back their belief after HT. Not near the standard of the game vs Man City but no complaints about the result. Let's see how the team deals with Bale and co

[The 5th Benitle]

Grkstav

Nobody's saying that. But equally its a little strange that you seem so keen to criticise Glen Johnson, seems an odd time to do so when he clearly played extremely well.

[plskikme]

You're right. But amongst all the (deserved) praise for Coutinho in here, there's a fact that I haven't seen mentioned, and that is that one of the reasons he was able to express himself was because he was well supplied with passes, particularly from Enrique. Downing, in contrast, was underutilized. I can only remember one occasion that Johnson passed the ball to him. I don't know why we don't use that outlet pass more, but it's been a feature of our play for the last month or two.

Well it stands to reason, the more we play it down the right, the less time Coutinho has a chance to get at their defence. I'm not sure this actually is the case, but given his impact so far, I'd rather see Coutinho gets on the ball and tries to make something happen than Downing.

[DanA]

I like Downing much more making 3rd attacking runs on the open side of the pitch. I think he's at his best when he can gather the ball in space and run at a flat footed defender or ghosting in at the far post. Worked well at Aston Villa with Young on the opposite wing and I reckon it will work well with Coutinho on the left. Teams concentrating on our left will help Downing a lot IMO.

[GrkStav]

Grkstav

Nobody's saying that. But equally its a little strange that you seem so keen to criticise Glen Johnson, seems an odd time to do so when he clearly played extremely well.

Not so clearly. In my eyes, he was very far from playing "extremely well". The only part of his performance that could be characterized thus was on the buildup to Suarez's third, our fourth. Other than that, he was not particularly good.

In any case, my ironic post was more general. There's a tendency for some to be unsympathetic to any critique and analysis after a victory. While what we say here has zero effect on what actually happens on the pitch, it does have an effect on subsequent discussions we have here. If we do not analyze and critically evaluate performances and managerial decisions after victories, we end up developing false hopes and becoming overly critical after defeats or draws.

Still, your retort is well taken and I shall heed it.

[GrkStav]

I like Downing much more making 3rd attacking runs on the open side of the pitch. I think he's at his best when he can gather the ball in space and run at a flat footed defender or ghosting in at the far post. Worked well at Aston Villa with Young on the opposite wing and I reckon it will work well with Coutinho on the left. Teams concentrating on our left will help Downing a lot IMO.

That's very insightful. The reference to AVFC, and Downing's performance with Young on the opposite flank is illuminating.

Would something similar apply, perhaps to Sterling, as well?

I also think that Downing should be tried centrally, perhaps next season if he's still with us. His very good close ball-control can be very useful.

[Mutton Geoff]

I think given how well Coutinho linked up with Suarez, it will be interesting to see if he can have the same effect with Sturridge, I see no reason why he wont.  Sturridge is also very mobile and able to find the space for Coutinho to pass into, it will be good to see if this trio can really combine well in future games this season. If they can gel it will be one heck of an attacking force.

[PhaseOfPlay]

You're right. But amongst all the (deserved) praise for Coutinho in here, there's a fact that I haven't seen mentioned, and that is that one of the reasons he was able to express himself was because he was well supplied with passes, particularly from Enrique. Downing, in contrast, was underutilized. I can only remember one occasion that Johnson passed the ball to him. I don't know why we don't use that outlet pass more, but it's been a feature of our play for the last month or two.

I'm not sure that's quite true. Enrique saw a lot of the ball, but Coutinho actually saw relatively little of it. It's a good measure of the positive impact of a player, though, that they can do so much with so little. Agaisnt Swansea he also saw little of the ball, but did so much with it when he did get it. Same against Wigan - Enrique, Agger and Lucas saw the most touches on the ball, and Coutinho was at a level with Downing, Suarez and Reina:



This, from Squawka.com, shows that most of Enrique's passes were backwards:



So again, I think it's more of a case that Coutinho's minimal touches were actually all high quality, which is really the key to his ability to express himself on the ball. He saw less of it than the fullback behind him but managed to have a greater impact. That is the mark of a quality player, and one which we will see a lot more of as the months go by.

[Red-juvenated]

Much of this 'criticism' could be down to the effects of the Rafalution. There is always scope for improvement.

Remember him admonishing Carra at the final whistle, AFTER we had won.

All I can hope for is consistency. Imagine if we keep this up to the end of the season. Boy o boy!

[Adeemo]

I know it's been mentioned already but it was extremely disturbing to see Lucas and to a lesser extent, Allen left on the pitch when we were 4 goals up, with a massive game against Spurs up next. One more foul from Lucas and he was absolutely nailed on to receive a 2nd yellow and this was with about 20 minutes to go, he did superb to curb his tackling from then on. On top of that, there's also Lucas' fitness issue, it made no sense to bring Hendo on for Coutinho. If our Brazilian had to come off, why not bring Suso or Assaidi on along with Jordan and replace both Coutinho and Lucas. Now it may seem like an extremely minor thing but if Lucas had got suspended for the Spurs game, then it would have become quite the opposite.

[DaveCharlie]

I know it's been mentioned already but it was extremely disturbing to see Lucas and to a lesser extent, Allen left on the pitch when we were 4 goals up, with a massive game against Spurs up next. One more foul from Lucas and he was absolutely nailed on to receive a 2nd yellow and this was with about 20 minutes to go, he did superb to curb his tackling from then on. On top of that, there's also Lucas' fitness issue, it made no sense to bring Hendo on for Coutinho. If our Brazilian had to come off, why not bring Suso or Assaidi on along with Jordan and replace both Coutinho and Lucas. Now it may seem like an extremely minor thing but if Lucas had got suspended for the Spurs game, then it would have become quite the opposite.

I agree - would love to see some 10min cameos of attacking players when we are up 3 or 4 zip.

I would hazard a guess that BR's thinking is to continue to play Allen, Henderson, Gerrard and Lucas all in to the highest possible level of form - more time on the pitch will help conditioning, stamina, etc. Also, he wants these critical midfield players to get the maximum time possible out there learning his way of playing, i.e. the extra 10min for a tiring Lucas would bring more value in the long run than randomly giving time to a pair of young, fresh legs.

[DanA]

That's very insightful. The reference to AVFC, and Downing's performance with Young on the opposite flank is illuminating.

Would something similar apply, perhaps to Sterling, as well?

I also think that Downing should be tried centrally, perhaps next season if he's still with us. His very good close ball-control can be very useful.

It's all opinions but personally I think the right wing cutting inside is much preferably for Downing over a central position. I've read some really insightful stuff here and one thing that stuck in my head is traditionally English players don't like to turn in traffic on the ball as a Xavi/Iniesta style player does. I think this very much rings true with Downing and for that reason I'd prefer Coutinho or Suarez in the central areas, even Allen over Downing.

Regarding Sterling I think is a bit different. Personally I really hope we sign Ince in summer. 17 goals and 10 assists is phenomenal even if it is in the Championship and there still 10 games or so to go. Really think he'd be a better fit than Downing and Downing already is a good fit. That wasn't always the case. The signing of Sturridge and Coutinho IMO help him a lot and now he has goal threats around him rather than others who are chance creators.

[Adeemo]

I would hazard a guess that BR's thinking is to continue to play Allen, Henderson, Gerrard and Lucas all in to the highest possible level of form - more time on the pitch will help conditioning, stamina, etc. Also, he wants these critical midfield players to get the maximum time possible out there learning his way of playing, i.e. the extra 10min for a tiring Lucas would bring more value in the long run than randomly giving time to a pair of young, fresh legs.

I agree that this is probably Rodgers' thinking but it must have been obvious to all that one more foul, no matter how minor, would've resulted in Lucas missing the Spurs match. Now that to me must surely be more important than our midfield 3 playing an extra 15-20 minutes together against a team we're beating 4-0? It just seemed such a massive risk to take, given how important Lucas has become to the way the team perform, it really didn't make any sense.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I agree that this is probably Rodgers' thinking but it must have been obvious to all that one more foul, no matter how minor, would've resulted in Lucas missing the Spurs match. Now that to me must surely be more important than our midfield 3 playing an extra 15-20 minutes together against a team we're beating 4-0? It just seemed such a massive risk to take, given how important Lucas has become to the way the team perform, it really didn't make any sense.

Lucas wasn't playing wildly though - his fouls were cynical rather than temperamental, so it's possible Lucas knew where the line was.

We only have league games left between now and the end of it, and lots of rest/recovery time between most games, so the subs weren't an issue. Henderson made sense, but I suspect that the second half of this game was as much a preparation for how we'll play against Spurs as it was controlling a game we're already 4-0 up in.

[Hank Scorpio]

I would hazard a guess that BR's thinking is to continue to play Allen, Henderson, Gerrard and Lucas all in to the highest possible level of form - more time on the pitch will help conditioning, stamina, etc. Also, he wants these critical midfield players to get the maximum time possible out there learning his way of playing, i.e. the extra 10min for a tiring Lucas would bring more value in the long run than randomly giving time to a pair of young, fresh legs.

I think that is right.  Everything now should be done in preparation for next season.  Use the last 10 games to consolidate the system/style.  It's a unique opportunity and we shouldn't let it go to waste because we are working under the pressure of results.

[iamrobk]

I think that is right.  Everything now should be done in preparation for next season.  Use the last 10 games to consolidate the system/style.  It's a unique opportunity and we shouldn't let it go to waste because we are working under the pressure of results.

tbf, isn't this sort of what we were saying last season? And look how that turned out...

[Mutton Geoff]

tbf, isn't this sort of what we were saying last season? And look how that turned out...

3 trips to London 

[Alf]

First and foremost it was an excellent display from Reina. Some great saves and his distribution to Coutinho in the build up to our opener demonstrated both vision and delivery. Coutinho played his part with assists for both Downing & Suarez. Already he seems to be on the same wavelength with our other players of where he wants to pick the ball up early and where they are going to run.

That's a hatrick of hatricks in little over 10 months from Luis Suarez now. Suarez seemed to give El Habsi the eyes on his 1st and then pass the ball into the goal, for the 2nd he scored from a free kick for the 5th time this season and that's a record John Barnes would have been proud of. Suarez became the 3rd Liberpool player to break 20 league goals in a season  & Premier League top scorer in one fail swoop.