Author Topic: In defence of the revolution  (Read 9621 times)

Offline guest

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In defence of the revolution
« on: February 7, 2013, 02:13:29 pm »
Wrote this yesterday - what timing!

From 1 September, Liverpool pressed their face against the transfer window and looked wistfully into the barren distance for a goalscorer. After years of dwindling goal tallies, it seemed the acquisition of one would be a simple solution to their problems. They missed out on Clint Dempsey; they would not make the same mistake twice.

The signing of Daniel Sturridge was essential – four goals in his first six games already point to the move being a masterstroke. In the four games he and Luis Suárez have started together, Liverpool have scored 11 times. The decline up front has started to reverse.

But as the bated breath of the club steamed up the window as they waited for a striker, there was a neglect of the hodgepodge lurking behind them.

This is Anfield, where the process of building towards a stable future is somewhat akin to a never-ending game of Whac-A-Mole, with Rodgers now the man to blast one mole into oblivion only to see another appear elsewhere.

Liverpool’s defence is now officially an issue. It is porous and ragged, bereft of confidence and self-belief. Rodgers’ side have conceded two or more goals in 13 of their 25 league games this season, while 10 individual errors have led to goals. With 13 games to play, the Reds have already conceded 32 goals – by way of comparison, the 2009-10 season ended with just 35 in the goals-against column.

Liverpool are a team habitually founded on defensive stability. In the title-winning season of 1978-79 they conceded just 16 goals in 42 games – four of them at home. In more recent eras, Gérard Houllier’s treble-winning side was largely founded on clean sheets, while Rafael Benítez’s Champions League success was defined by shut-outs away to Juventus and Chelsea.

Yet figures only tell part of this sorry tale. For the full narrative, observe the transformation of last year’s player of the season, Martin Skrtel, from colossus to walking catastrophe as he wrestles futilely with strong opposition centre forwards. See Daniel Agger, the tattooed steed, lose concentration and late runners into the box. See Pepe Reina, once one of the world’s best goalkeepers, always looking a moment away from cataclysm.

These are not bad players. In fact, Reina and Agger are very good, while Skrtel – though inconsistent – demonstrated his true capabilities last season. It is not just this trio, either: José Enrique, while improving, is an enterprising full-back prone to making brainless decisions, and while Andre Wisdom could be an England defender for years to come, only experience will eradicate his ball-watching.

It says a lot when Jamie Carragher, so readily written off in recent times, is the outstanding defensive performer at the age of 35. What little pace he once had may have evaporated completely, and those lung-busting blocks are now a rarity, but he still provides organisation, nous and experience. The more strained ears in the stands can hear Carragher’s dog-whistle Bootle voice shrieking instructions to all.

It still is not good enough, of course, especially with the announcement that the old warhorse is putting himself out to pasture at the end of the season. Though two points against Arsenal and Manchester City away were welcome, the is the feeling that it could have been more.

With the forward positions seemingly sorted, Rodgers must look to fix his rearguard – though it is not entirely an issue of individuals. The defence is not protected enough by the midfield at times, particularly given Lucas Leiva’s continued absence through injury. There is also the issue of learning a new way of playing on the job, with the cogs noticeably turning in players’ heads as they adapt to a new style of style.

On top of that is a suggestion that, given the disharmony between the back five at times, the onus in training sessions is on the attack. With no big, strong centre forward to train with, perhaps it is little surprise Skrtel and Agger struggle against such types on weekends.

The defence should not be completely written off, even though the individual errors continue to furrow brows. Tweaks all over the pitch can help, as can time. But after five years of Agger, Skrtel, Carragher and Reina constantly rotating as the central spine, perhaps a change is needed.

Now is the time to re-assess options available ahead of the summer – especially with Carragher on his way. Sebastián Coates will likely leave and Enrique needs competition– as do Agger and Skrtel. A big, physical centre-back and a left-back are on the agenda, then.

It is time to look past the transfer window once more, though care should be taken not to disregard the overall balance and let the glass get so steamy this time.

Link: http://www.lifesapitch.co.uk/opinions/rodgers-revolution-requires-a-defensive-overhaul/

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #1 on: February 8, 2013, 02:52:12 am »
Another good piece, brilliantly written. I do have to take slight issue with one part though -

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With no big, strong centre forward to train with, perhaps it is little surprise Skrtel and Agger struggle against such types on weekends

This would be true if they'd never faced big strong centre forwards in their career, and they were 18 years old. But they are full internationals, approaching peak age, and they have faced innumerable big strong centre forwards from the time they played their first Youth game at a serious level (especially in Denmark and Slovakia, where the players tend to be of the relatively big, strong variety almost as a rule). To say that they have problems with big centre forwards now because they don't face them in training is to say that they haven't learned anything in at least a decade of playing professional/semi-professional/youth football. This is clearly not the case, as we know. So the issue has to be something else, and I think you hit it closer to the truth with the "cogs noticeably turning in players heads" line - players who are used to playing closer together as a defensive pair, and also 10 yards further forward, now have to think, whereas before - under Rafa, Hodgson and Kenny/Clarke - their defending and positioning was largely automatic. Now they have to think of a new way to possess the ball, new angles to take up in possession, and as a consequence, new recovery runs from different positions. This will obviously disrupt most players, especially if they weren't used to being such an important part of the attack before (to me, it's noticeable that Agger has coped better of the two - he has always been one to get into the attack with the ball, so the new system should mostly be like a duck to water for him). For those who formerly had a the job of tackling, heading and marking, to now become an integral part of retaining and moving the ball, it will be a shock to the system. It's like taking a team used to dribbling and many touches and asking them to only play one-touch - it will look like junk in the beginning, will improve in fits and starts, but in the end, it will solidify and become automatic, and also will look natural and smooth in the technique. I daresay that next year, Agger and Skrtel, if they are the partnership, will look and play a lot different, with less mistakes and better positioning (and lets remember that Lucas is technically at the "start" of his season, compared to the rest. As he grows, so will the defensive solidity).

So overall, I think we have to look elsewhere as to the reasons for Agger and Skrtel suddenly looking mistake-ridden compared to last season. For me, before it becomes an issue of who they face in training, it is more accurately an issue of system, training, rebuilding a mindset, and slowly but steadily developing automation in the play. Once these three issues are fixed, I think that we will see different performances from the same two players.
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royhendo

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #2 on: February 8, 2013, 09:11:33 am »
Ta again mate. It's funny - I was listening back to the Rodgers Q/A sessions from the first half of the season and it's an interesting listen in retrospect. It's also interesting (on this specific issue) harking back to the summer and our collective derision at the ideas being floated from the club (along with other clubs).

Lest we forget, we weren't a million miles from selling Skrtel in the summer, and the idea of Ashley Williams bubbled up. There was also talk of selling Agger for a king's ransom, but it seems we tickled Man City's chin a little on that issue with no real intention of consummating the relationship. Needless to say, certain solutions were already in the manager's mind for problems that hadn't yet reared their heads. He's never really talked up Skrtel. Repeatedly we're reminded that Agger's "possibly the best left-sided centre back in the world". But never Skrtel. He doesn't rate him highly and never really has. That he was willing to take a look at Forren also doesn't bode too well for Coates.

One decent centre half and a young prospect? Or do we have enough in Kelly and Wisdom to close that one off?

In the case of Carragher, it also calls to mind Garstonite's customarily excellent "Carragher's Career Extension Symptomatic Of Deep-Rooted Problems", the twilight years of his career being a fascinating little case study in their own right, and also Lachesis' fantastic "Gomel: Cause For Concern Or Call For Patience?". The reasons why there was life in the old dog yet are fascinating really, aren't they?

Anyway, cheers again Sir.

royhendo

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #3 on: February 8, 2013, 09:16:16 am »
I meant to underline that - my thinking is that the defensive set up and shape in large part dictate the fortunes of the players involved. Are physicality, experience and concentration the key attributes in this system? Ability on the ball always seemed the key, but it's an issue we debated at length in relation to Barca a year or two back, with Degs making the compelling case that you need one battling warrior in there, no matter what the limitations. That's why they never look as effective without Puyol - the split centre halves and high line make that back triangle inherently vulnerable. Skrtel is prone to lapses on that front, and Kenny's set up was far more forgiving in that respect.

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #4 on: February 8, 2013, 10:01:22 am »
This is a topic I've thought about starting numerous times but certainly don't have the writing gift as many a scribe on here! With Carragher's announcement I believe this summer will be all about the defence and adding much needed support to our wavering foundations.

Our Current Line-up :

Reina - If you looked up modern sweeper keeper in the dictionary 2 years ago you'd see this happy, smiley, singing, bald Spaniard.. When Rodgers came in the first thing I said to my mate was, finally Reina has the system that suits him perfectly.. We should have seen him back to his best, but instead you see a somewhat forlorn character, he just looks like his heart isn't in it anymore - a lot is said about his mistakes and whilst they haven't directly cost us this black hole of points as some would like you to believe, he certainly doesn't inspire confidence between the sticks.. He was never a great dealer with crosses and corners - but what you always could rely on was his near impossible shot stopping ability and distribution.. Two things you don't see often anymore sadly. In my opinion this summer will see us part ways as a mutual agreement, it could re-ignite his career and give us a good chunk of money to bring in a new hungry keeper.

Johnson - The only player in the starting back 4 you could say is 100% guaranteed starter when fit, Glenn has really excelled this season - we always knew about his offensive game, and surprisingly he's taken that to another level, but it's his defensive solidity he has improved and is far more consistent and much less prone to errors as previously. Easily one of the top right backs in the world currently.. We should get another 4-5 seasons of him if managed correctly, he is integral to how we play.

Agger - Another player you would have expected to fit naturally into the new 433 system, a ball playing center half who is strong in the tackle and an excellent reader of the game. Daniel is having his best season in terms of injuries (or lack of) but is increasingly making mistakes - blame the system or whatever you want, but for a 28 year old center half who should be in his prime its not acceptable.. He needs competition for his place, he knows if fit he will start - thats a dangerous situation to be in. However I wouldn't for the life of me ever sell Daniel, he epitomises what it is to be a Liverpool player and hopefully this season is simply learning the new system and next season we shall see a return to the beast at the heart of the defense.

Skrtel - You look at Martin - tall, athletic, bald, tattoo'd and your first thought would be "o shit he's a bad mother fucker".. That doesn't always translate to the field, he gets beaten and bullied far too often for a player of his size and strength! Whilst I think he has been made a scapegoat for a lot of things that really aren't in his control, he still allowed a semi-pro footballer knock him all over the park at Oldham - simply not good enough.. Martin should rightly be worried about his place, come next season I think we'll see a dominating center half partnering Agger, at his expense.

Enrique - What a conundrum Enrique is, some days you get a stellar performance befitting a Spain call-up, other days he runs around like a headless chicken, into blind alleys and passing blindly.. He reminds me of the scarecrow off the Wizard of Oz at times, can game intelligence be taught? I think with Enrique it can - he can spot a Suarez run from 40 yards and ping a beautiful cross field pass directly into his run, so learning to pass at the right time and not slowing play by choosing the wrong ball.. His defensive game isn't always the best, but he has pace and is strong as an Ox.. I can see Enrique staying as a backup for both left back and left wing, I certainly wouldn't want him to move on.

Youth :

Coates – I am really disappointed in Coates, from what I’d seen and read about him he was a real talent.. He could simply be one of those players who needs to be constantly playing to find his form, but as a young center back you won’t always get that time, so you need to at least put in a solid performance. Coates is a big strong lad and really Matt Smith should have been his bread and butter – an aerial dual with another strong lad, who had zero technical ability or pace, yet he was out fought and made to look like the pub player. I think he has blown his chance personally, and it would be in both our best interests to part ways.

Wisdom - I really rate Andre, but as a center half.. If anyone watched the recent U21's game he was impervious - the pitch was a muddy mess, yet he left the pitch in a pristine white kit - a testament to his excellent reading of the game and how to defend without diving into tackles. He will always do a solid job as a right back, but he would excel as a center half.. Certainly needs loan time to eradicate the ball watching from his game.. But let’s not forget he is only 19

Kelly - Hopefully Martin comes back and is the same after his injury, I fear he is simply one of those players whose career will be blighted by completely unrelated injuries.. He is a class player and I would hope Rodgers is going to try him at center half as he could easily next season become the 3rd choice center half, as he would fill 3 slots on the bench - RB, CB, LB.. He is strong in the air, class with the ball at his feet and overall has everything needed to succeed here. Let’s hope he regains his fitness.

Robinson - Irrespective of the performance given against Oldham, I still think Robinson has a career here - it's a interesting insight that he has been playing center half for the reserves a few times, someone with more knowledge of me of the youth set up might be able to answer why he's being tried here? He basically needs time on loan at a championship, but he is strong, can pass, excellent passer and is an intelligent player.. People complaining about telling Suarez to fuck off? Need to get a grip, heat of the moment in a game - a complete none event.

Mclaughlin - The heir apparent to Johnson. Ryan is everything a modern fullback should be - quick, can tackle, excellent attacking threat.. He will be the one taking over from Johnson - I expect to see him start to get games next season.

I think in the summer we will see..

Out - Reina, Skrtel, Coates
Loan - Flanno, Robinson, Wisdom
In - Keeper, CB, LB, CB (who can also play DM)

Leaving us with a defensive unit as :

GK - New
CB - Agger, New CB, Kelly, New CB/DM
RB - Johnson, Kelly, Mclaughlin
LB - New LB, Enrique, Kelly

Offline Livo.85

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #5 on: February 8, 2013, 11:49:11 am »
Have to agree with PhaseofPlay regarding "developing automation in the play". This takes time & I would expect after another full pre season with the all important training camps focusing on this we will see a large improvement.
Would also expect over the summer for both Wisdom & Kelly to be trained in the centre back position with a view to being played there in friendlies.
Regarding how the issue will affect our recruitment I would like to see a versatile player come in that can play both in the centre of defence & the Lucas role.
It would make a lot more sense from a practical stand point in terms of tactical flexibility & financial value. Buying an experienced player that is essentially "world class" being paid eighty thousand a week instead of two players that aren't as good in quality (& not versatile) for say fifty thousand each plus the two transfer fees doesn't make much sense at all.
The issue is of course to find this player that exists(?) that will understand &/or be comfortable in the system in the short term & not have to go through the same teething problems that most of our defenders have gone through this season.
« Last Edit: February 8, 2013, 11:53:16 am by Livo.85 »

Offline Dr_Evil

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #6 on: February 8, 2013, 12:33:03 pm »
Great OP and discussion; the tonic to the 'boohoo the new kits are not niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice' thread.
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #7 on: February 8, 2013, 12:37:16 pm »
For me there is a bit of a pattern emerging regarding Rodgers and his defensive system. It works brilliantly at home where his dominates possession controls the game and offers up very few chances but has real problems away from home. At Swansea in his promotion season they conceded an incredibly low 11 goals in their 23 home games which was understandably the best in the division. Away from home though they conceded 31 goals which was 7th in the division.

Last season in the Premiership Swansea conceded 18 goals in 19 League games which was only bettered by City with 12, Everton with 15, Liverpool with 16 and Arsenal, Spurs, Newcastle and Sunderland with 17. Away from home it was a repeat of Swansea's promotion with 33 goals conceded which was 12 the in the division.

This has been repeated this season with Liverpool having the best home defensive record in the division only conceding 10 goals from our 12 home games. Again the problems have come away from home with us conceding a whopping 22 goals away from home and sitting in 12th place for goals conceded away from home.

Statistically it almost inevitable that you will concede more goals away from home but in Rodgers time at Swansea and Liverpool his teams have had a large disparity between rankings for goals conceded at home and goals conceded away. For me it hints at Rodgers looking to defend by domination of possession something which is far harder to do away from home.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #8 on: February 8, 2013, 12:47:48 pm »
For me there is a bit of a pattern emerging regarding Rodgers and his defensive system. It works brilliantly at home where his dominates possession controls the game and offers up very few chances but has real problems away from home. At Swansea in his promotion season they conceded an incredibly low 11 goals in their 23 home games which was understandably the best in the division. Away from home though they conceded 31 goals which was 7th in the division.

Last season in the Premiership Swansea conceded 18 goals in 19 League games which was only bettered by City with 12, Everton with 15, Liverpool with 16 and Arsenal, Spurs, Newcastle and Sunderland with 17. Away from home it was a repeat of Swansea's promotion with 33 goals conceded which was 12 the in the division.

This has been repeated this season with Liverpool having the best home defensive record in the division only conceding 10 goals from our 12 home games. Again the problems have come away from home with us conceding a whopping 22 goals away from home and sitting in 12th place for goals conceded away from home.

Statistically it almost inevitable that you will concede more goals away from home but in Rodgers time at Swansea and Liverpool his teams have had a large disparity between rankings for goals conceded at home and goals conceded away. For me it hints at Rodgers looking to defend by domination of possession something which is far harder to do away from home.

Good points - it sometimes seems like it would almost be better to go for a traditional attacking home approach in the away games - just putting attacking pressure on the home team from the start and force them to deal with it - and leave the possession game for the home games. But I am hesitant to make a judgment on that until next season, because we don't know what the pre-season plans Rodgerd has. But there certainly needs to be a post-season analysis of the away form. It might require an examination of the general approach to the away games, and a slight tweak in emphasis?
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #9 on: February 8, 2013, 01:04:22 pm »
Good points - it sometimes seems like it would almost be better to go for a traditional attacking home approach in the away games - just putting attacking pressure on the home team from the start and force them to deal with it - and leave the possession game for the home games. But I am hesitant to make a judgment on that until next season, because we don't know what the pre-season plans Rodgerd has. But there certainly needs to be a post-season analysis of the away form. It might require an examination of the general approach to the away games, and a slight tweak in emphasis?

For me since Lucas has returned we have looked pretty solid in front of the two centre backs but have had problems in the areas an old fashioned inside forward would play in. United got space for their first goal because Wisdom was defending the right flank on his own and Evra was given way too much space, their second came from a free kick given away in the inside left position.

Against Arsenal it was a free kick from an inside right position for the first and the overloading of our left side with Johnson left 2v1.

Against City it was City overloading our right flank for the first and a ball into the channel behind the full back for their second.

Maybe the answer is to either play 3 centre backs away from home or to play a more rigid 4-2-3-1 and get the wide players to track back and protect the full backs the way the likes of Kuyt and Benayoun used to. Because at the moment with the 4-3-3 we are leaving too many spaces behind our full backs on the counter and not providing enough protection when teams look to overload our flanks.
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #10 on: February 8, 2013, 01:10:15 pm »
Could our lack of a counter attacking threat away from home also be a factor? But now with Sturridge and hopefully Coutinho we're much better placed to counter attack. Could something as simple as that have a big effect?

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #11 on: February 8, 2013, 01:14:32 pm »
For me since Lucas has returned we have looked pretty solid in front of the two centre backs but have had problems in the areas an old fashioned inside forward would play in. United got space for their first goal because Wisdom was defending the right flank on his own and Evra was given way too much space, their second came from a free kick given away in the inside left position.

Against Arsenal it was a free kick from an inside right position for the first and the overloading of our left side with Johnson left 2v1.

Against City it was City overloading our right flank for the first and a ball into the channel behind the full back for their second.

Maybe the answer is to either play 3 centre backs away from home or to play a more rigid 4-2-3-1 and get the wide players to track back and protect the full backs the way the likes of Kuyt and Benayoun used to. Because at the moment with the 4-3-3 we are leaving too many spaces behind our full backs on the counter and not providing enough protection when teams look to overload our flanks.

I agree on the three centrebacks (as I've said before), and the rigid 4-2-3-1 is a good sensible option too, you're right. I think the benefit of the emphasis on extreme possession and not always playing in the transition means that we can actually afford to be rigid sometimes, because we're not looking to catch the defence unbalanced when we win the ball. I daresay a team could play a Hodgson-esque two banks of four and do quite well, if they added the Rodgers possession game to their attack rather than direct play and long balls. Maybe that's something BR might look at for next season. If he sorts the away record to one where we beat the bottom ten home AND away, draw 5 of the top ten away and the other 4 in the laps of the gods (the top four teams), while also improving our good home record, that will be the bones of a decent outsiders title tilt I think.
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Offline belfast-connection

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #12 on: February 8, 2013, 01:17:08 pm »
Good points - it sometimes seems like it would almost be better to go for a traditional attacking home approach in the away games - just putting attacking pressure on the home team from the start and force them to deal with it - and leave the possession game for the home games. But I am hesitant to make a judgment on that until next season, because we don't know what the pre-season plans Rodgerd has. But there certainly needs to be a post-season analysis of the away form. It might require an examination of the general approach to the away games, and a slight tweak in emphasis?

To me this is key to winning a league over 38 games - develop a style of play - get comfortable with it and bank that over the season your play will win you more points than your rivals - Utd do it, Chelsea under Mourinho did it etc. etc.

It was one of the things that always worried me about Rafa in terms of league campaigns - leaving aside rotation, which I think worked for us (sod you Andy Gray) -  there was I seem to recall, too much tinkering and adapting the side to suit the opposition rather than always seeking to impose ourselves on other sides - in fact the season where we went closest to the title was the season we pretty much settled on an almost  constant 4-2-3-1 and stuck to it

Rafa was good at adapting a team to suit the opposition and we were a feared cup team as a result but I think that too much chopping and changing affects you over 38 games on the basis of the law of averages
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #13 on: February 8, 2013, 01:20:45 pm »
Not sure if possible but what about having lucas/agger as our cb pairing?
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #14 on: February 8, 2013, 01:29:37 pm »
Not sure if possible but what about having lucas/agger as our cb pairing?

I brought this up in another thread, if Lucas never regains his pace then I would love to see him given a chance at cb.. His reading of the game is second to none, he is a very good header/tackler and has obvious leadership qualities. Whilst yes there is distinct differences between CB and DM there is a reason a lot of the quality young CB/DM's can play both positions with relative ease (Javi Martinez, Papadopoulos, Mascherano, Capoue, Toulalan etc.)

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #15 on: February 8, 2013, 01:43:31 pm »
I think there are two major factors for our poor defense this season.

1. Not having the right tools for the right job.
Occasionally you need the towering CB come in while at other times you need a DM/CB that will switch between midfield and defense. We don't have either and IMO at times have been caught out.

2. We haven't had continuity.
We've had Johnson one week on the right, the next on the left. Skrtel dropped, Wisdom in and out, Enrique suffer injuries and Lucas just returning. Too many changes creates instability in the back half. We need the option to push Enrique forward on the left side and not rely on teenagers.
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #16 on: February 8, 2013, 01:49:50 pm »
Lucas could maybe play CB, but not sure he would be a good partner for Agger unfortunately (well, until we won the ball again  :odd

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #17 on: February 8, 2013, 01:56:05 pm »
Now the new scouting team is in place, I wonder if Dejan Lovren is still a target...

Any followers of the French league know how he's been performing in the last couple of years since we were heavily linked with him?

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #18 on: February 8, 2013, 09:18:22 pm »
A big, physical centre-back and a left-back are on the agenda, then.

I hope so mate, as solid as we were last season and whatever stats people can throw at me, I've perceived our CB position has been our glass jaw for a long time. The message ahead of the next window must be to spend fairly high but spend wisely and surely we'll by now have a short-list of candidates. We need a player that's assured in his zone rather than assured carrying the ball imo - I know many will disagree.

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #19 on: February 8, 2013, 09:35:30 pm »
I hope so mate, as solid as we were last season and whatever stats people can throw at me, I've perceived our CB position has been our glass jaw for a long time. The message ahead of the next window must be to spend fairly high but spend wisely and surely we'll by now have a short-list of candidates. We need a player that's assured in his zone rather than assured carrying the ball imo - I know many will disagree.

It needs to be both. If they can't play the ball simply and maintain possession, the whole thing will fall apart. The template would be a more physical Agger. There is no way, though, that a player will be recruited who has the first touch of a brick wall and the turning speed of an Alaskan tanker. It will be a Rodgers player, but bigger.
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Offline John C

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #20 on: February 8, 2013, 09:46:48 pm »
It needs to be both. If they can't play the ball simply and maintain possession, the whole thing will fall apart.
Yes, absolutely mate. I wouldn't suggest a big commanding cart-horse who can't play football is sought. Hence me suggesting a fair bit of the budget would be prudently spent in that area.
When we assess this season there's so much positives to re-cap on taking everything in to account. But we'll also reflect on our weaknesses and for me we need height in MF and we need to stop shitting ourselves when we concede a corner or a set-piece. Everyone of us does it.

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #21 on: February 8, 2013, 09:49:21 pm »
Yes, absolutely mate. I wouldn't suggest a big commanding cart-horse who can't play football is sought. Hence me suggesting a fair bit of the budget would be prudently spent in that area.
When we assess this season there's so much positives to re-cap on taking everything in to account. But we'll also reflect on our weaknesses and for me we need height in MF and we need to stop shitting ourselves when we concede a corner or a set-piece. Everyone of us does it.

I think you might be right. We'll probably see two out and one in (Carra, and Coates, perhaps?). Interesting about the height in Midfield, and while I agree, I can only see Lucas as the player that would give way?
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #22 on: February 8, 2013, 10:03:12 pm »
Give me defenders that can defend.

To hark back to a time when we were tighter than a Tory government - A certain Mr Rafeal Benitez played a system that was mean, lean and could rip a team to bits and then strangle a game over the 90, the ripping bit was not always seen, but we were a team that was miserly in the goals against department, well, in most seasons anyway, but, the basis of that was a system that was compact (his words not mine). It's why we prospered so well during his time here in Europe.
Moving on from then and like it or not messes Hodgson(yes I know) Dalglish and now Rodgers have tried in varying success to play a more expansive game of football. Don't get you're knickers in a twist, this is neither a slate on Benitez nor is it a dig at anyone else, it's about a simple thing that I see - we leave our defence more exposed these days, yet, at the same time, our offensive play has looked and felt much better, but to the detriment on how we perform as a unit defencively and, and I don't like saying this, as a defencive unit, perhaps we are not as good as we think we are.

Bottom line - we either go back to playing a more compact system and suffer offencively or, we employ defenders that do what it says on the tin and can defend, all the time, every time.

Give me defenders that can defend.

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #23 on: February 8, 2013, 10:23:06 pm »
Defenders who can defend and ball playing defenders are not mutually exclusive though. Agger, Enrique and Johnson have had just over half a season to acclimatise to this new system and whilst there are expected holes that need to be patched up, you can already tell that they'll only grow stronger and stronger as they get more game time.

Our back four is a quad-pod, if one leg fails then the rest suffer dramatically. Wisdom is a fine young player but the difference with him and Johnson at full back compared to Johnson and Enrique is day and night. Having too full backs who can bring the ball out cannot be underestimated to the efficacy of this system, add in two centre backs who are comfortable bringing the ball out and you suddenly have an overwhelming proposition for other teams.

Opposition teams who think that pressing our back four will cause error or complacency will find their efforts fruitless, by having no weak links when in possession, we leave opposition teams without a target for pressing.

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #24 on: February 8, 2013, 11:30:41 pm »
I think you might be right. We'll probably see two out and one in (Carra, and Coates, perhaps?). Interesting about the height in Midfield, and while I agree, I can only see Lucas as the player that would give way?
We may need a different thread mate, but for Lucas to give way, in the short term, there'd have to be an insurmountable barrier in him regaining fitness. We've seen glimpses of what he proved he was capable of but it may be a few months before its conclusive. If he recaptures his form I think the remainder will have to battle for a place.

Its an interesting position which I'd love to explore with you further sometime. Assuming all other places are filled with quality, which SG never enjoyed completely, to win the PL I feel its vital that the players in MF must be either special like Masch or makelele or dominant like Veira or Petit. Putting MU aside because they are an unusually drilled side irrespective of weaknesses.

Images of Whelan and McMahon's ability constantly flood my thoughts PoP.

Anyway, £15m on an uncompromising CB that doesn't ball watch would be money well spent.

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #25 on: February 8, 2013, 11:35:19 pm »
I'm with you Chopper mate, and he must also be capable and agile to produce
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« Last Edit: February 9, 2013, 09:18:26 am by John C »

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #26 on: February 9, 2013, 12:32:20 am »
So I just spent an hour going through Everton, Arsenal and Liverpool's remaining fixtures in the PL (13)  and have concluded that Everton definately have the hardest remaining fixtures with the likes of UTD away, Arsenal away, City at home Tottenham away, Liverpool away and Chelsea away and are likely to only gain 17pts from the remaining 13 games putting them at 59pts for the season.

Arsenal have Tottenham away, Swansea home, UTD home and Newcastle away amongst others, my brilliant mystic meg like powers have deduced they are likely to earn in the region of 22pts in the last remaining games putting them 63pts for the season.

Liverpool have a good run of games on paper at least with the big ones being Tottenham at home, Everton at home, Chelsea at home and Newcastle away, in between we have the likes of Villa away (I'm predicting a win btw), S'thampton away, Wigan away, all of these as we know are capable of beating a top side on an in form day, never the les I still think we have the best run of the 3 and will likely gain around 25pts from remaining fixtures (which is nearly 2pts per game on average) putting us on 61pts for the season.

So there you have it, I think Tottenham have secured 4th and were not worth bringing into the equation though I could be wrong, I have the list of each teams remaining fixtures and my predictions for them though unfortunately they're in notepad format and not an excel spreadsheet, so if you would like to see them or me to post them here let me know.

I think we'll finish 6th just above the blue shite and below Arsenal is the short story :)

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #27 on: February 9, 2013, 01:11:21 am »
Martin Kelly is the answer.

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #28 on: February 9, 2013, 01:57:32 am »
Are we certain that Brendan is hugely concerned about making our defense as solid as it once was? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he wants us to concede as little as possible, but you can't underestimate the effectiveness of developing razor-sharp attacking play. It may be a little different to what we've become accustomed to given Rafa's preference towards aiming for clean sheets first and goals second, but aiming to simply out-score the opposition and make them think twice about attacking in numbers can be effective too.

At the start of the season a lot of fans were complaining that the loan of Carroll meant that we had no plan B in attack, and some pointed out that this would allow us to focus on making plan A as effective as possible. I believe Brendan could be following a similar path with offensive and defensive play, focusing on making our attack as effective as possible first and foremost, with the defending being worked on later when needed.

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #29 on: February 9, 2013, 02:00:45 am »
Are we certain that Brendan is hugely concerned about making our defense as solid as it once was? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he wants us to concede as little as possible, but you can't underestimate the effectiveness of developing razor-sharp attacking play. It may be a little different to what we've become accustomed to given Rafa's preference towards aiming for clean sheets first and goals second, but aiming to simply out-score the opposition and make them think twice about attacking in numbers can be effective too.

At the start of the season a lot of fans were complaining that the loan of Carroll meant that we had no plan B in attack, and some pointed out that this would allow us to focus on making plan A as effective as possible. I believe Brendan could be following a similar path with offensive and defensive play, focusing on making our attack as effective as possible first and foremost, with the defending being worked on later when needed.

I think that's a big possibility. We certainly aren't affecting an all-out pressing game, so for now we seem to be more concerned with shape and position when we lose the ball, and defending with the ball more than without. Pre-season wil be interesting. We'll know more within the first three games of next season (as there will be no time to work on the defence in any meaningful way this season) if we notice something constructively different in the way we defend.
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #30 on: February 9, 2013, 02:09:02 am »
I think that's a big possibility. We certainly aren't affecting an all-out pressing game, so for now we seem to be more concerned with shape and position when we lose the ball, and defending with the ball more than without. Pre-season wil be interesting. We'll know more within the first three games of next season (as there will be no time to work on the defence in any meaningful way this season) if we notice something constructively different in the way we defend.

I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for any analysis you might post of our play during pre-season. I'm curious about our summer transfers too, as a lot of people are assuming our defense will be the focus of the window. With Jamie leaving I can see us looking for a replacement, but beyond that it'll be interesting to see if we do improve further in that area or continue to focus on buying better attackers, given that we still have few options on the bench and nobody of a high standard in the wide right position.

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #31 on: February 9, 2013, 09:22:59 am »
Are we certain that Brendan is hugely concerned about making our defense as solid as it once was?
My initial thoughts when BR arrived was that we'll play to a system of 'we'll score more than you', but I think its a risky exercise and it will be interesting to see what emerges in the summer.
I think entering the season with Agger & Skrtel and just Wisdom & Kelly is risky, so if he acquires a player the fee will state the importance as he see's it.

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #32 on: February 9, 2013, 10:12:57 am »
My initial thoughts when BR arrived was that we'll play to a system of 'we'll score more than you', but I think its a risky exercise and it will be interesting to see what emerges in the summer.
I think entering the season with Agger & Skrtel and just Wisdom & Kelly is risky, so if he acquires a player the fee will state the importance as he see's it.

I think the swiftness of any potential aquisition will let us know as well John, if we spend half decent money early doors I think we'll all know Martin's days are numbered.
We needed a striker, and we got one in as soon as the window opened, if we spend say, 10m on a CB before pre season he'll be a 'starter'.
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #33 on: February 9, 2013, 10:23:11 am »
if we spend say, 10m on a CB before pre season he'll be a 'starter'.

Precisley. OK that's sorted, so why isn't a new CM "on the agenda"?

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #34 on: February 9, 2013, 10:29:55 am »
Another good piece, brilliantly written. I do have to take slight issue with one part though -

This would be true if they'd never faced big strong centre forwards in their career, and they were 18 years old. But they are full internationals, approaching peak age, and they have faced innumerable big strong centre forwards from the time they played their first Youth game at a serious level (especially in Denmark and Slovakia, where the players tend to be of the relatively big, strong variety almost as a rule). To say that they have problems with big centre forwards now because they don't face them in training is to say that they haven't learned anything in at least a decade of playing professional/semi-professional/youth football. This is clearly not the case, as we know. So the issue has to be something else, and I think you hit it closer to the truth with the "cogs noticeably turning in players heads" line - players who are used to playing closer together as a defensive pair, and also 10 yards further forward, now have to think, whereas before - under Rafa, Hodgson and Kenny/Clarke - their defending and positioning was largely automatic. Now they have to think of a new way to possess the ball, new angles to take up in possession, and as a consequence, new recovery runs from different positions. This will obviously disrupt most players, especially if they weren't used to being such an important part of the attack before (to me, it's noticeable that Agger has coped better of the two - he has always been one to get into the attack with the ball, so the new system should mostly be like a duck to water for him). For those who formerly had a the job of tackling, heading and marking, to now become an integral part of retaining and moving the ball, it will be a shock to the system. It's like taking a team used to dribbling and many touches and asking them to only play one-touch - it will look like junk in the beginning, will improve in fits and starts, but in the end, it will solidify and become automatic, and also will look natural and smooth in the technique. I daresay that next year, Agger and Skrtel, if they are the partnership, will look and play a lot different, with less mistakes and better positioning (and lets remember that Lucas is technically at the "start" of his season, compared to the rest. As he grows, so will the defensive solidity).

So overall, I think we have to look elsewhere as to the reasons for Agger and Skrtel suddenly looking mistake-ridden compared to last season. For me, before it becomes an issue of who they face in training, it is more accurately an issue of system, training, rebuilding a mindset, and slowly but steadily developing automation in the play. Once these three issues are fixed, I think that we will see different performances from the same two players.

If that's the case, why does Carra seem to have taken to it better than the rest? You wouldn't say this sort of system is his natural way of playing. I think Kris has a point about them not coming up against that type of striker in training. You say they'll have been up against these strikers in their respective home countries but I think the noticeable thing about the best physical strikers these days is how mobile they are. Put Skrtel and Agger up against Koller in his pomp I reckon they'd be fine - I doubt they'd have come up against many with the physical presence and mobility of people like Drogba, Adebayor, Benteke et al. You don't get them all the time here and to be honest when I think back (and I'm not going to claim I spotted this at the time) we've had problems with this type of player for a long time. However in those days there were fewer of these type of players about (certainly less who could finish as well as some of the modern breed of physical strikers can) and we were playing a more compact, defensively solid style of football anyway.

Go back to Tottenham away last season and look at how we dealt with Adebayor. I think it's not about having some big lump at the back who can only defend, because they need to be able to keep with these very mobile strikers too and they, along with the keeper are the first line of attack in this system. As an example, I don't think Mertesacker has fixed Arsenal's defensive problems one jot - and he's a very good, strong defender thrown into a similar system to the one we have. But I do think it's about personnel more than we care to admit. We need defenders who can stand up to this kind of threat, and I'm not convinced Skrtel or Agger have ever been that type of defender.

I would have given them both new contracts in the summer so I'm not going to criticise the decision - but we might suffer for not cashing in when their stock was higher, particularly in Skrtel's case.
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #35 on: February 9, 2013, 10:30:25 am »
Precisley. OK that's sorted, so why isn't a new CM "on the agenda"?

 ;D

A DM come CB would be nice.

However, I personally think we are sorted in midfield other than an able backup to Lucas, I suspect Brendan sees either Joe, or Jordan filling in if neccessary.

I'm of the opinion we'll see a reshaped 'defensive' unit over the summer months.
I see Pepe leaving, and I see an 'aggressive' CB being recruited.
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #36 on: February 9, 2013, 10:53:26 am »
About this thing about struggling to cope with big players; as far as defending against crosses, it's not even about winning the ball outright. It's as much about making sure the attacker doesn't win it cleanly. A little nudge to the side of a Lukaku when he goes for the ball, putting him off balance is often enough. If we "cheat" a little bit more like that we'll do better. Maybe we're to honest.
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #37 on: February 9, 2013, 01:25:55 pm »
Precisley. OK that's sorted, so why isn't a new CM "on the agenda"?

Papadopoulos - sorted ;) going to be a beast that kid and can play both CB and DM.

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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #38 on: February 9, 2013, 03:46:53 pm »
good piece Kris-
On the cover for CB issue- For me Coates needs to be given time he will be a monster.  for the past few  years I have been saying that Kelly has all the attributes to be a top CB. He has height, pace , strength, can get forward , improve his distribution and positioning and you are onto a real winner.  In 3 years time for me a Coates/Kelly CB pairing could prove to be immense,.
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Re: In defence of the revolution
« Reply #39 on: February 9, 2013, 04:14:32 pm »
In the case of Carragher, it also calls to mind Garstonite's customarily excellent "Carragher's Career Extension Symptomatic Of Deep-Rooted Problems"

Anyway, cheers again Sir.

Interesting to see some of the posts on Carra in that thread regarding his communication

Quote
Soto, Skrtel, Agger all do not talk and communicate.

and in reply

Quote
If you keep saying over and over again that none of our defence could marshall the back line and develop a unitary understanding without Carra you're underestimating, bordering on insulting them.

I think in this system, what we need is leadership at the back more than anything because defenders have to do more than defend. I'm not so sure what that spells for the future of Skrtel, maybe as Lucas gets better then the need for one will decrease, but there is no two ways about it, Carra going leaves a void. His departure will be really interesting in terms of how we deal with it.