Author Topic: Maradona 1960-2020  (Read 100989 times)

Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #200 on: February 5, 2013, 09:13:20 am »
I love watching Maradona videos, I really do, but since the debate is Messi vs Maradona (to some extent), I have question to those who post these (brilliant) videos of Maradona.

Do you guys think that Messi will have a collection of superb youtube compilations by the time he retires? He already does. Nothing against Maradona, skills are brilliant, but even right now, Messi has tons of youtube compilations. I agree with you that Messi became a bit of a striker as of late, but he is still full of tricks.

Although lacking the genius of Maradona, Messi is far more consistent than Diego ever was and a tremendous dribbler thanks to his great turn of pace and ability to change direction with the ball always under control, and obviously his very effective tricks and dummies.

Maradona was never that explosive and had to rely more in skill to get past players, a bit like Iniesta does.

All I am saying is that when Maradona was inspired, and by that I mean in excellent physical condition, which he rarely was, there is not player I would choose over him, and there would be no way to stop him by legal means, because, as you said well, he had that unpredictability about him like Ronaldinho, but at the same time he was far more sound than the Brazilian. His tricks had always a purpose. And one thing I loved about him as I love now Xavi for, was his decision making. Obviously he wpould lose the ball more than Xavi as he had to take more risks with it, but you could see that he was  most of the time making the right play. With Messi at times I see someone who gets obsessed with going solo, when a simple pass will do. Also his lack of off the ball movement is a big turn off for me. Watch how MAradona would pass the ball and make himself readily available, no matter the area of the pitch where he was, whereas Messi only seems to get interested in moving off the ball if there is a clear-cut chance after chasing the ball into space.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2013, 09:17:26 am by Spanish Fan »
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Offline LFCDad

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #201 on: February 5, 2013, 09:14:17 am »
I have watched tons of Messi compilation and been very impressed with them. One of the best player of all time. But I never get the buzz from them like I get watching from those Maradona ones. Even his training videos you can see the genius touch and skills. Some of the things he tries in those videos successfully most player won't be able to imagine that.

I think Yorky explained it better some pages back. Its unthinkable, unpredictable stuff Maradona pulls out makes him more enjoyable to watch While what Messi does week in week out is always expected out of him. He shows great dribbling skills, passing etc but you can see that coming. But Maradona always pulls something out which you don't see it coming and it makes you say "how the fuck he did that". Thats made Maradona more exciting to watch than Messi.
You didn't really read Yorky's post. The reason you think you see more unpredictable stuff from Maradona is because you've not seen much of him. The reason you can't say that of Messi is because he's on our TV screens twice a week and has been since he started playing.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #202 on: February 5, 2013, 09:16:52 am »
Why does any discussion about a player become a versus Messi debate?

The thread is disucussing Maradona's brilliance and legacy, and there are some excellent posts which define him and his era very well whereas
others needlessly want to play top trumps all the time in regards who was the best / the greatest.  :boring
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #203 on: February 5, 2013, 09:24:08 am »
I love watching Maradona videos, I really do, but since the debate is Messi vs Maradona (to some extent), I have question to those who post these (brilliant) videos of Maradona.
I think we do it in answer to the OPs questions, rather than any comparision with Messi. If you watch all of these, videos of Maradona from the age of 16 and forward, it should be pretty obvious why there was such a fuss made about him.

In 20 years time, maybe someone who hasn't seen Messi play, comes along and asks the same question. Both of us will probably spend a few moments 'defending' Messi and posting endless youtube clips when that happens, don't you think?

Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #204 on: February 5, 2013, 09:48:23 am »
Tomorrow evening I going to bother with something I had in mind for a long time. To edit and upload a video of Maradona playing for Barcelona against Nottingham Forest in the Joan Gamper tournement.

You may say, it is a friendly. Well, friendlies were not as friendly as they are today to start with.

What it makes this video so special, apart from the live commentary of Capello on Italian TV is that the game was played virtually on a swimming pool, such was the amount of rain that had fallen and every player but Maradona struggled to move the ball just a few yards forward.

It is a display of technique that will make your jaw drop. The other players look like amateurs under those conditions whereas Maradona performance is so good that it looks almost staged.

Watch this space. A pity the video quality is poor, but it is worth watching it.

There is some videos of Maradona doing tricks in training on muddied pitches, now you can see him doing those in a proper game.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2013, 09:51:19 am by Spanish Fan »
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Offline SpartanTree. No deccies or lights.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #205 on: February 5, 2013, 01:22:26 pm »
....Although the Argentine ’86 team doesn’t have many names that European fans would have known, this was clearly team that at the time was full of winners up to this point, many of whom had won trophies within four years of Mexico 86.

And that is without counting Maradona. Who knows how many of them would have played in Europe had it not been for foreign player quotas, military juntas etc.

Winners they may have been but great players they were not. 
Pele played in Brazil his whole career (I'm counting his time in the States as retired) but was so good that he became renowned worldwide off the back of his international career.  Can't really say the same about any of the other Argentina squad at Mexico 86.

..... You could even argue Maradona's career went into a terminal decline after that World Cup, as he was banned for cocaine use and never won any other honours.

Yes he did - he won Serie A (2) 1987, 1990 + the Coppa Italia (1) 1987 + UEFA Cup (1) 1989 + Supercoppa Italiana (1) 1990.
Oh and he once again dragged the Argentina team to the WC final at Italia 90.
He was banned for cocaine use in 91 & then after USA 94 for using ephidrine.
 
His years at Napoli were his greatest years.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #206 on: February 5, 2013, 01:43:29 pm »
The fitness of the players changed dramtically though. With fouls like these there would be more injuries, much more, today  compared to those years. What I am trying to say is, back then it was possible to go on playing after a foul like this. Today, no way.

Thats a testament to the players of that era.
Hard as fuck compared to todays posers & primadonas.

I don't think there would be any more or any less injuries - the players would adapt & learn to stick a tackle in or become accustomed to being on the receiving end.

I played footie at a decent standard from 88 onwards and even at our level there was a distinct change in the game through the nineties.  It became much less physical compared to when I first started playing - forwards getting much more protection from the officials and tough tackling defenders/midfielders becoming the exception rather than the norm. 

As for players becoming fitter - I don't agree although training methods are now much better with alot of research having gone into injury prevention & treatment, recovery and nutrition etc.





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Offline Phil M

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #207 on: February 5, 2013, 01:56:17 pm »


Watch this space. A pity the video quality is poor, but it is worth watching it.

There is some videos of Maradona doing tricks in training on muddied pitches, now you can see him doing those in a proper game.

Would love to see that mate.
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #208 on: February 5, 2013, 02:02:55 pm »
I don't see how anybody could begrudge the change in refereeing standards after watching some of the hacks on Maradona. It's been a good thing for the game on the whole.

Is Messi a beneficiary? Sure he is. Is it easier for him? I don't think so. Some of those old cloggers who hacked at Maradona simply wouldn't make it in the modern game. They weren't fit enough and they weren't skilful enough. Messi is facing much quicker defenders on a week-by-week basis than anyone in Maradona's generation faced.

Of course he's still fouled and hacked at. This video is impressive because it shows how Messi responds. Unbelievable really. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0gS5CshUDE





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Offline Phil M

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #209 on: February 5, 2013, 02:08:58 pm »
And some of the modern players wouldn't hack it in Diego's era.
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #210 on: February 5, 2013, 02:16:31 pm »
And some of the modern players wouldn't hack it in Diego's era.
Some ordinary players wouldn't. The great players would adapt to any era.

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Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #211 on: February 5, 2013, 03:08:36 pm »
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Offline El_Pelusa_10

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #212 on: February 5, 2013, 09:13:49 pm »
Some absolutely brilliant posts in here. For me Diego will stand alone as the greatest of all time. Messi will definetly run him close but I always think Diego will edge it.

He was a sheer joy to watch. Part of the reason I love Suarez so much is his will and fight remind me of Maradona. I also love a good flawed genius( Garrincha & Best are another few favourites)

That goal he scored in 86 was simply breathtaking. That Azteca pitch was an absolute disgrace( not like the snooker like tables for picthes these days) and for him to glide past playes with that close control was unreal! You can see the ball bobbling through the run but he still makes it stick!

He will always be the GOAT in my eyes. Always seemed like he was never happier than when he was playing on a pitch. I never get sick of watchin this video. An absolute joy to watch.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vashrNoXTE

(Dunno how to embed)
« Last Edit: February 5, 2013, 09:17:09 pm by El_Pelusa_10 »

Offline timmyonions

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #213 on: February 5, 2013, 09:40:56 pm »
Some absolutely brilliant posts in here. For me Diego will stand alone as the greatest of all time. Messi will definetly run him close but I always think Diego will edge it.

He was a sheer joy to watch. Part of the reason I love Suarez so much is his will and fight remind me of Maradona. I also love a good flawed genius( Garrincha & Best are another few favourites)

That goal he scored in 86 was simply breathtaking. That Azteca pitch was an absolute disgrace( not like the snooker like tables for picthes these days) and for him to glide past playes with that close control was unreal! You can see the ball bobbling through the run but he still makes it stick!

He will always be the GOAT in my eyes. Always seemed like he was never happier than when he was playing on a pitch. I never get sick of watchin this video. An absolute joy to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vashrNoXTE
(Dunno how to embed)


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwwKgo31xz0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 :)
That right peg hits it and you see the future arc of the ball and time goes al gluey like a Dali painting, and for a second there's a 20yr old StevenGerrard and your young self cheering him on through the prism. His big smile fades in an the net is shivering and J.Hart's trying not to look grateful for the privilege of being that close to greatness

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #214 on: February 5, 2013, 10:01:03 pm »
Yes he did - he won Serie A (2) 1987, 1990 + the Coppa Italia (1) 1987 + UEFA Cup (1) 1989 + Supercoppa Italiana (1) 1990.
Oh and he once again dragged the Argentina team to the WC final at Italia 90.
He was banned for cocaine use in 91 & then after USA 94 for using ephidrine.
 
His years at Napoli were his greatest years.

I was referring to Italia '90, but accidently forgot to add that.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #215 on: February 5, 2013, 10:10:18 pm »
Maradona in Spain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtnGytTE0wk

That's how you score the winning goal after being 'butchered' and abused like a dog for months. That goal is what Maradona was all about. I can picture all the modern TV pundits having a go at that, but no - that is how you do it. That is how you stick it back to 'em. Bloody lovely. Then came the kung fu course ;D

Never seen any footage of his operation tho!

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #216 on: February 5, 2013, 11:15:40 pm »
I think it was David Pleat who summed Maradona's passing and finishing perfectly during Mexico'86 - 'He gets wonderful elevation on his balls from unseemingly impossible positions at times'

 :D
If he retires I'll eat my fucking cock.

Great anti climax for those expecting jizzihno....

Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #217 on: February 6, 2013, 01:20:57 am »
That's how you score the winning goal after being 'butchered' and abused like a dog for months. That goal is what Maradona was all about. I can picture all the modern TV pundits having a go at that, but no - that is how you do it. That is how you stick it back to 'em. Bloody lovely. Then came the kung fu course ;D

Never seen any footage of his operation tho!

In that footage you can see a lobbed pass to Periko Alonso, Xabi Alonso's father, against Athletic Bilbao,  that Barca number 5 put away. Minutes later that terrible Goico tackle took place.

By the way, the challenge  only merited a yellow card. Those were the refereing standards of the day.

Ah, and I was at the Bernabeu when Maradona scored that final goal.
« Last Edit: February 6, 2013, 01:24:46 am by Spanish Fan »
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Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #218 on: February 6, 2013, 01:34:56 am »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwwKgo31xz0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 :)

You can see in the video how with the modern ball, 2005, doing keep-ups is easier. A fat and unfit Maradona in his mid forties is able to give effects to the ball that he could not achieve in his prime.

And the ball is getting lighter every year, giving the illusion that players technique is improving.
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Offline Xxavi

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #219 on: February 6, 2013, 01:53:38 am »
You can see in the video how with the modern ball, 2005, doing keep-ups is easier. A fat and unfit Maradona in his mid forties is able to give effects to the ball that he could not achieve in his prime.

And the ball is getting lighter every year, giving the illusion that players technique is improving.
Haha you end up saying everything is easier these days. You gotta keep in mind, players are more athletic and teams are more professional these days. We laugh at players like Clichy, who are all speed, little technical ability, but they are difficult to go past and leave behind, because they chase you down even after you do so.

With all due respect, some of those players that Maradona go past them, are standing and watching. Some look clumsy, some look unfit. You have a valid point, the pitches were worse, the tackles were bad. But they were things that surely Maradona benefited from too? He didn't train properly, he didn't keep diet, he did everything. In modern football, he may have not lasted. We have seen Brazilian Adriano or Ronaldinho go bad very quickly. You need to be a top athlete as well.

Offline RedMichelFerri

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #220 on: February 6, 2013, 05:47:19 am »
Haha you end up saying everything is easier these days. You gotta keep in mind, players are more athletic and teams are more professional these days. We laugh at players like Clichy, who are all speed, little technical ability, but they are difficult to go past and leave behind, because they chase you down even after you do so.

With all due respect, some of those players that Maradona go past them, are standing and watching. Some look clumsy, some look unfit. You have a valid point, the pitches were worse, the tackles were bad. But they were things that surely Maradona benefited from too? He didn't train properly, he didn't keep diet, he did everything. In modern football, he may have not lasted. We have seen Brazilian Adriano or Ronaldinho go bad very quickly. You need to be a top athlete as well.

Maradona wouldn't have lasted in Modern game  :o :o :o :o
I doubt you ever watched Maradona. He was one hell of an athlete. All these hacks and his addiction took toll on his body during his career but that guy was awesome Athlete. Fast as fuck, skillful, great balance and hard as nails.
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Offline LFCDad

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #221 on: February 6, 2013, 09:30:41 am »
Winners they may have been but great players they were not. 
Pele played in Brazil his whole career (I'm counting his time in the States as retired) but was so good that he became renowned worldwide off the back of his international career.  Can't really say the same about any of the other Argentina squad at Mexico 86.


Maybe to you passive football fans like yourself, you've probably never heard of Daniel Passarella, Burruchaga or Valdano, we looked forward to be able to see players like these who we'd heard of but never seen play.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #222 on: February 6, 2013, 09:34:33 am »
And the ball is getting lighter every year, giving the illusion that players technique is improving.

I know you're not keen on Messi but you're beginning to sound a bit cracked.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #223 on: February 6, 2013, 10:50:14 am »
I know you're not keen on Messi but you're beginning to sound a bit cracked.
It's scary.
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Offline El_Pelusa_10

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #224 on: February 6, 2013, 10:55:14 am »
Maybe to you passive football fans like yourself, you've probably never heard of Daniel Passarella, Burruchaga or Valdano, we looked forward to be able to see players like these who we'd heard of but never seen play.

Although Passarella captained Arg to the 78 WC, he never played in the 86' WC. He has some sort of stomach virus IIRC.  Might want to look things like that up before you start attacking other peoples football knowledge  ;)
« Last Edit: February 6, 2013, 10:59:52 am by El_Pelusa_10 »

Offline owens_2k

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #225 on: February 6, 2013, 12:51:24 pm »
I think it was David Pleat who summed Maradona's passing and finishing perfectly during Mexico'86 - 'He gets wonderful elevation on his balls from unseemingly impossible positions at times'

 :D
Jesus wept. David Pleat!? Why dont we just end the thread now then.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #226 on: February 7, 2013, 03:28:05 am »
I know you're not keen on Messi but you're beginning to sound a bit cracked.

What part you don't get that a lighter ball is easier to control, to pass or to shoot? Have you ever played with a leather ball?
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Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #227 on: February 7, 2013, 03:36:51 am »
Haha you end up saying everything is easier these days. You gotta keep in mind, players are more athletic and teams are more professional these days. We laugh at players like Clichy, who are all speed, little technical ability, but they are difficult to go past and leave behind, because they chase you down even after you do so.

With all due respect, some of those players that Maradona go past them, are standing and watching. Some look clumsy, some look unfit. You have a valid point, the pitches were worse, the tackles were bad. But they were things that surely Maradona benefited from too? He didn't train properly, he didn't keep diet, he did everything. In modern football, he may have not lasted. We have seen Brazilian Adriano or Ronaldinho go bad very quickly. You need to be a top athlete as well.

Not saying everything is easier now. You have to be very fit to play in the modern game, that is for sure, considering the pace of the game and the number of games played. But materials, pitches and footballs, are much easier these days. From passing the ball, to shooting, to lobbing the keeper, all is much easier when with a very light touch you are able to accomplish it.


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Offline keyo

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #228 on: February 7, 2013, 04:00:36 am »

Messi elevates Barca, that much is clear. But it's also clear Barca elevate Messi. Nothing wrong with that, except that if we're comparing the 2 players- Diego never needed elevation. He was the one doing it, for club and country. Without any comfort zones, without sympathetic referees, without state of the art equipment, dietitians, a spotless lifestyle, a style of play ingrained in him or a favorable offside trap.

This is right, look at yorkykopites video of the argentina holland game for the type of treatment that was regularly meted out, or treat yourself to andoni goicoechea's tackle on him - which illicited nothing more than a free kick.

maradona's influence on his teams between 84 and 1990 were immense, even whn he was struggling on painkillers to get onto the pitch by italia 90. at napoli he took a team that had barely challenged in its history to 2 serie a titles and 2 second places, with a team of barely recognisable players initially....he even improved that element.... and then he took argentina - with a team that included few players that would identify as world greats - to its only world cup win outside argentina, and then another final beating the hosts and brazil on the way

maradona won the easy and hard ways, but he won....but just taking his play alone, watch his balance, his poise, his vision and precision...just watch his goals, and those he was involved in in mexico 86, by the knock out stage he was unplayable

messi is awesome, and to be even compared to the likes of maradona and pele, and put into the same category as cruyff, best, et al shows what a talent he is....as good as maradona?  not in my opinion, but then, different times, different requirements, so who knows in the end
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Offline Xxavi

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #229 on: February 7, 2013, 04:21:12 am »
Not saying everything is easier now. You have to be very fit to play in the modern game, that is for sure, considering the pace of the game and the number of games played. But materials, pitches and footballs, are much easier these days. From passing the ball, to shooting, to lobbing the keeper, all is much easier when with a very light touch you are able to accomplish it.

But it is also a fact that average distance covered nowadays is much more compared to 80s. Workrate of players increased, a lot of players are extremely fast, a lot are built like a tank.

Old days, players used to smoke packs of cigarette per day, drink, do drugs like in the case of Maradona. Do you honestly see those players consistently maintaining their performance level 90 minutes in modern times? The popular theory is every great player would adapt by training more, being more professional and working harder, when in fact it is not a given. Not sure how Maradona would have done in this era, but you gotta take off your rose tinted glasses. You make it sound that Maradona would have been so much better than what he was playing in modern times. I say there are good arguments to say he may have been worse.

I remember Arsenal beating Real Madrid in Bernabeu 1-0 (Henry goal). After that match, Zidane said that Arsenal players were as if they were riding bikes (meaning they were fast). Let's be honest, the likes of Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo etc. are supremely talented technicians, but they lost to a bunch of runners (relative to their technical abilities) and Henry+Cesc. This is what modern football is.

Or don't you remember Dynamo Kiev that destroyed Barcelona? They had only one remarkable player, Shevchenko, others were just a part of well drilled physical team, an extremely fit team of Lobanovski. Objectively, very few of them could play in that Barcelona team if we were to judge them by their technical abilities. But football isn't only technique, as it was shown then.

You keep implying that people who watched Maradona wouldn't put Messi above him. I have seen LOADS of experts, analysts, pundits whatever you call them, say Messi is in fact the best ever. Graeme Souness has probably said it 100 times, and whether he was a good manager or not, he was a top player who played in that era, and he also knows football. In Spanish league, coaches have said multiple times that Messi is the best ever. One said (I forgot who was it) that Messi is better because he does what Maradona does, but much faster.

The Messi vs Maradona issue isn't a settled one, as many make it sound in this thread. Not at all. And it is not a fact that Maradona would have it easier these days.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #230 on: February 7, 2013, 05:50:37 am »
But it is also a fact that average distance covered nowadays is much more compared to 80s. Workrate of players increased, a lot of players are extremely fast, a lot are built like a tank.

Old days, players used to smoke packs of cigarette per day, drink, do drugs like in the case of Maradona. Do you honestly see those players consistently maintaining their performance level 90 minutes in modern times? The popular theory is every great player would adapt by training more, being more professional and working harder, when in fact it is not a given. Not sure how Maradona would have done in this era, but you gotta take off your rose tinted glasses. You make it sound that Maradona would have been so much better than what he was playing in modern times. I say there are good arguments to say he may have been worse.

I remember Arsenal beating Real Madrid in Bernabeu 1-0 (Henry goal). After that match, Zidane said that Arsenal players were as if they were riding bikes (meaning they were fast). Let's be honest, the likes of Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo etc. are supremely talented technicians, but they lost to a bunch of runners (relative to their technical abilities) and Henry+Cesc. This is what modern football is.

Or don't you remember Dynamo Kiev that destroyed Barcelona? They had only one remarkable player, Shevchenko, others were just a part of well drilled physical team, an extremely fit team of Lobanovski. Objectively, very few of them could play in that Barcelona team if we were to judge them by their technical abilities. But football isn't only technique, as it was shown then.

You keep implying that people who watched Maradona wouldn't put Messi above him. I have seen LOADS of experts, analysts, pundits whatever you call them, say Messi is in fact the best ever. Graeme Souness has probably said it 100 times, and whether he was a good manager or not, he was a top player who played in that era, and he also knows football. In Spanish league, coaches have said multiple times that Messi is the best ever. One said (I forgot who was it) that Messi is better because he does what Maradona does, but much faster.

The Messi vs Maradona issue isn't a settled one, as many make it sound in this thread. Not at all. And it is not a fact that Maradona would have it easier these days.

You need to be much fitter. Said that already, and some players may have not adapted to the modern game, although by the late 80's there were teams with very good physical conditioning such as Milan.

And I am not implying anything. This is my view. I always favour foootball skills and intelligence over physical attributes. That is my bias. And looking at it from that angle there is no doubt in my mind that Maradona was a much more accomplished player than Messi who is exceptionally good at certain aspects of the game, but does not possess the game intelligence and the capacity of making others around him better. In fact  I would say that at times his play is detrimental to that of the team.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #231 on: February 7, 2013, 05:55:10 am »
This is right, look at yorkykopites video of the argentina holland game for the type of treatment that was regularly meted out, or treat yourself to andoni goicoechea's tackle on him - which illicited nothing more than a free kick.

maradona's influence on his teams between 84 and 1990 were immense, even whn he was struggling on painkillers to get onto the pitch by italia 90. at napoli he took a team that had barely challenged in its history to 2 serie a titles and 2 second places, with a team of barely recognisable players initially....he even improved that element.... and then he took argentina - with a team that included few players that would identify as world greats - to its only world cup win outside argentina, and then another final beating the hosts and brazil on the way

maradona won the easy and hard ways, but he won....but just taking his play alone, watch his balance, his poise, his vision and precision...just watch his goals, and those he was involved in in mexico 86, by the knock out stage he was unplayable

messi is awesome, and to be even compared to the likes of maradona and pele, and put into the same category as cruyff, best, et al shows what a talent he is....as good as maradona?  not in my opinion, but then, different times, different requirements, so who knows in the end

Actually Goico got a yellow for that tackle :D
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #232 on: February 7, 2013, 09:19:12 am »
But it is also a fact that average distance covered nowadays is much more compared to 80s. Workrate of players increased, a lot of players are extremely fast, a lot are built like a tank.

Old days, players used to smoke packs of cigarette per day, drink, do drugs like in the case of Maradona. Do you honestly see those players consistently maintaining their performance level 90 minutes in modern times? The popular theory is every great player would adapt by training more, being more professional and working harder, when in fact it is not a given. Not sure how Maradona would have done in this era, but you gotta take off your rose tinted glasses. You make it sound that Maradona would have been so much better than what he was playing in modern times. I say there are good arguments to say he may have been worse.

I remember Arsenal beating Real Madrid in Bernabeu 1-0 (Henry goal). After that match, Zidane said that Arsenal players were as if they were riding bikes (meaning they were fast). Let's be honest, the likes of Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo etc. are supremely talented technicians, but they lost to a bunch of runners (relative to their technical abilities) and Henry+Cesc. This is what modern football is.

Or don't you remember Dynamo Kiev that destroyed Barcelona? They had only one remarkable player, Shevchenko, others were just a part of well drilled physical team, an extremely fit team of Lobanovski. Objectively, very few of them could play in that Barcelona team if we were to judge them by their technical abilities. But football isn't only technique, as it was shown then.

You keep implying that people who watched Maradona wouldn't put Messi above him. I have seen LOADS of experts, analysts, pundits whatever you call them, say Messi is in fact the best ever. Graeme Souness has probably said it 100 times, and whether he was a good manager or not, he was a top player who played in that era, and he also knows football. In Spanish league, coaches have said multiple times that Messi is the best ever. One said (I forgot who was it) that Messi is better because he does what Maradona does, but much faster.

The Messi vs Maradona issue isn't a settled one, as many make it sound in this thread. Not at all. And it is not a fact that Maradona would have it easier these days.

Players are a product of their time in that they can only play in the environment they exist in, in the teams are at the time, and against players available there, so there is always going to be considerations of different levels of fitness and different levels of tactical awareness and discipline

The past would have given opportunity for greater levels of differentiation, of players standing out more, but it is about how much with maradona, it was so far in a decade with zico, platini, gullitt, van basten, Mattheus, and when top class teams and coaches began coming even more to the fore.

The thing to consider is what made maradona stand out at the time, and would it translate to a different age? Of course the maradona we saw would have to adapt to stronger, fitter teams, with greater organisation, better and more targeted tactics. But then give him messi's experience at a similar age, and would maradona's skill and aptitude be up to the job? And would his skill shine through still? I reckon it would, I think a player with maradona's skills, footballing brain and aptitude for the game, and his character and willpower would be outstanding today as he was in his day, as would pele who was as professional as they come at the time

Again, it is not about under rating messi or today's talent, for me it is about recognising that maradona - like pele and best - was a special talent that would excel in any era he was to play in
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #233 on: February 7, 2013, 09:19:47 am »
What part you don't get that a lighter ball is easier to control, to pass or to shoot? Have you ever played with a leather ball?

You called the improvements in technique in the modern game an "illusion" caused by the existence of "lighter balls". I think  that's wrong, even silly.

And, yes, I've played - and still play - with all sorts of footballs. One of my favourites, in fact, is the Tango from '86. The differences between that ball and the ones in use now can easily be exaggerated.

And this business about lighter balls. You will occasionally have played a game of football where the ball is too light - ie not enough air pressure in it. Within minutes everyone is complaining to the ref. Why? Because the damn thing is too difficult to control.
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #234 on: February 7, 2013, 10:29:46 am »
Brilliant thread this (apart from the ball debate ;) )...very informative.

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #235 on: February 7, 2013, 10:33:23 am »
You called the improvements in technique in the modern game an "illusion" caused by the existence of "lighter balls". I think  that's wrong, even silly.

And, yes, I've played - and still play - with all sorts of footballs. One of my favourites, in fact, is the Tango from '86. The differences between that ball and the ones in use now can easily be exaggerated.

And this business about lighter balls. You will occasionally have played a game of football where the ball is too light - ie not enough air pressure in it. Within minutes everyone is complaining to the ref. Why? Because the damn thing is too difficult to control.

What I was trying to say is that what in appearance is an improvement in technique  in reality is not. You see players from 40 yards putting the ball in the top corner with great regularity. You may think, they are great when in reality placing the ball accurately is much easier cause the player does not have to exert as much power as before for the ball to travel long distances and thus they can concentrate fully in placement. Try to chip the goalkeeper with the old leather ball and compare with these plastic ones.

Yes , the same degree of difficulty and I am not even talking about bad bounces.

Just check old footage of goalkeepers barely reaching the half way line from a goal kick. Now any keeper has to be careful as to not get the ball out of play cause the pitch is getting to small for their kicks. 

« Last Edit: February 7, 2013, 10:38:11 am by Spanish Fan »
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #236 on: February 7, 2013, 11:05:24 am »
Just check old footage of goalkeepers barely reaching the half way line from a goal kick. Now any keeper has to be careful as to not get the ball out of play cause the pitch is getting to small for their kicks. 

Sorry folks - couldn't resist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMRlIoAYh7Y
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #237 on: February 7, 2013, 11:13:25 am »
Sorry folks - couldn't resist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMRlIoAYh7Y

This one not even lifting the ball before kicking it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfCtc1kih6A


Find now in the modern game goal kicks that do not even reach the halfway line, something very common in the past.
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Offline LFCDad

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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #238 on: February 7, 2013, 11:25:01 am »
Although Passarella captained Arg to the 78 WC, he never played in the 86' WC. He has some sort of stomach virus IIRC.  Might want to look things like that up before you start attacking other peoples football knowledge  ;)
you might want to read my post again before attacking my football knowledge ;) Passarella didnt play but he was there in that squad, we had no idea here that he was not going to play, there wasnt no goal.com shit or whatever you read these days that would tell that one of the best goalscoring centre backs was going to miss a world cup. You'd have Brian Moore on the tele normally at the tournaments, I remember 1986 because i'm pretty sure his arse was sat in London.
Also nice to see you couldn't refute the other two
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Re: Maradona - Why the fuss?
« Reply #239 on: February 7, 2013, 11:47:48 am »
This one not even lifting the ball before kicking it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfCtc1kih6A

Same distance, same bounce. Ta muchly. Oh, and if you played footy - or at least thought about properly - you'd be more impressed by the fact that the ball was rolling towards the keeper in your clip than by the fact that he didn't use his hands for the punt forward. Much easier to get distance on the ball when you're dealing with a rolling ball than a stationary one.

Anyway, that's enough lessons for now.  Let's allow everyone to get back to what's important. The immense skills of Maradona and the immense skills of Messi.  Both of them football gods.
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