Topic: Maradona 1960-2020

[Roger Federer]

I could go along with all of that, Yorky.

Being the most talented doesn't necessarily mean you're the best. Add that Messi's talent alone is up there with Maradona's in some areas, if not all, and I have no problem with the claim that he is already the best (I'm not ready to say so myself yet though). When it comes to consistency and effectiveness, he's ahead of everyone else that I've seen. He certainly will be if he keeps the outragous level he's at for a couple of more seasons. I admire that trait in Messi, the will to always play at your best, even improve year after year, as much as I do the genius and talent he was born with. There is no one in the game today that I'd rather watch, but Maradona was even more exciting.

That might be because of the 'will he/wont he' factor you mention, but I think it's more to do with the fact he did some things on the pitch not even Messi can. It's difficult for me to explain in English, but some of the passes or dribbles, Maradona did are completely impossible to spot before they happen (there are a few in the video you posted before, and that by a 18-year old!). I know Messi is capable of that as well, but with him it's more often that he's so good that it doesn't matter if you know what he's going to do, he will get past you anyway. With Maradona you were left thinking 'WTF did just happen?' even more regularly than with Messi. Suarez, if obviously at a few levels below the Argentinian greats, is a bit like that as well. One of very few in world football today.

[whtwht]

I know what you mean,  theres many times i've watched Maradona and i always expected something audacious or  how the Fk did he do that moments?? More so than any player although Messi's getting up there .

He had an amazing accuracy in his passing too which i loved to see and toyed with  excellent defences like the Saacthi's  AC milan like they're school kids.

[Yorkykopite]

I could go along with all of that, Yorky.

Being the most talented doesn't necessarily mean you're the best. Add that Messi's talent alone is up there with Maradona's in some areas, if not all, and I have no problem with the claim that he is already the best (I'm not ready to say so myself yet though). When it comes to consistency and effectiveness, he's ahead of everyone else that I've seen. He certainly will be if he keeps the outragous level he's at for a couple of more seasons. I admire that trait in Messi, the will to always play at your best, even improve year after year, as much as I do the genius and talent he was born with. There is no one in the game today that I'd rather watch, but Maradona was even more exciting.

That might be because of the 'will he/wont he' factor you mention, but I think it's more to do with the fact he did some things on the pitch not even Messi can. It's difficult for me to explain in English, but some of the passes or dribbles, Maradona did are completely impossible to spot before they happen (there are a few in the video you posted before, and that by a 18-year old!). I know Messi is capable of that as well, but with him it's more often that he's so good that it doesn't matter if you know what he's going to do, he will get past you anyway. With Maradona you were left thinking 'WTF did just happen?' even more regularly than with Messi. Suarez, if obviously at a few levels below the Argentinian greats, is a bit like that as well. One of very few in world football today.

Nice stuff Roger. It's the disbelief they all provoke - and you're right, it's a rare thing. We're often amazed by a piece of skill, but it's rare we're left shaking our head and gibbering in disbelief. Suarez careening through the Man Utd defence was hard to believe because of all the strange ways he found of beating men. Also Ronaldinho, from a stationary position on the edge of Chelsea's box, somehow curling the ball beyond Cech with the outside of his boot (the 'somehow' still perplexes).

Both Messi and Maradona are/were regularly beyond belief too. And let's not forget Pele. The famous dummy sold to the goalie in the '70 World Cup for example. It's one thing to imitate that (as a few greats have done). It's another to conceptualise it (then execute it in a real game) as Pele did. 

[muyuu]

Gentile would have been sent off about 7 times, no joke, if that was played in this era.

The thing is Maradona would have dominated even more today. That's how good he was.

[Kenny's Jacket]

If Maradona had comed on as an 80th minute sub on Sunday we would have won 4-3.

[Kovai Red]

If Maradona had comed on as an 80th minute sub on Sunday we would have won 4-3.

Meh. Fairclough would've done that

@topic, I think Maradona is the best of the two, simply because Napoli has won their only two Serie A titles, their only European cup and Italian Supercup and one of their 4 Italian cups in their whole history during Maradona's period. Yes Messi has won bucket loads, but it didn't had an impact on his club's history as Maradona's did with Napoli. The only lucky arses are those who watched both of them play in flesh.

[Rohit]

Nice stuff Roger. It's the disbelief they all provoke - and you're right, it's a rare thing. We're often amazed by a piece of skill, but it's rare we're left shaking our head and gibbering in disbelief. Suarez careening through the Man Utd defence was hard to believe because of all the strange ways he found of beating men. Also Ronaldinho, from a stationary position on the edge of Chelsea's box, somehow curling the ball beyond Cech with the outside of his boot (the 'somehow' still perplexes).

Both Messi and Maradona are/were regularly beyond belief too. And let's not forget Pele. The famous dummy sold to the goalie in the '70 World Cup for example. It's one thing to imitate that (as a few greats have done). It's another to conceptualise it (then execute it in a real game) as Pele did.

Yorky where do you hold the likes of Zico an Rivelino in your greatest players ever list?

[Yorkykopite]

Yorky where do you hold the likes of Zico an Rivelino in your greatest players ever list?

When I was a nipper we spent the entire summer holidays on the rec trying to do Rivelino free kicks. The man who curved the ball!

Zico adorned an already great team of course. I'm talking Brazil '82. (Falcao was my favourite).

They were both brilliant footballers, but a tier or two below the very best?

Where do you put them?

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Very fair points there Yorky - Messi is so consistently brilliant that it seems less mercurial, less scintillating somehow - but really, in perspective, it isn't, it's just incredible.

I love the fact in his thread that people are actually questioning his form when he has scored in 11 straight games. that's how bloody good he is. Last year there was a month or so where NOT everything he touched turned to gold, and look how last calendar year turned out, the best ever. his loss of form is still better than just about anybody else's peak. Wow.

[Mr Dilkington]

Interesting thread this.

My best/favourite 11 of all time:

Casillas; Cafu, Beckenbauer, Baresi, Maldini; Xavi, Iniesta, Cruyff; Maradona, Pele, Messi.

Disclaimer - Haven't seen Di Stefano, Puskas etc enough to have them in.

[Dubred]

I can't agree with you there mate. Maybe we'd need to go digging through the archives to illustrate this, but Maradona was a team player. Amazing team player. The goal Napoli (nearly) scored against Atalanta (? I think) - he essentially does the England 86 run, and at the end of it - he plays a sublime ball for his team mate who knocks it past the post. He played like the perfect number 10 - vision, creativity, an incredible team ethic and a work rate which wouldn't be out of place today. Perhaps how he was used by Argentina in the 86 world cup has tinted that view a little - one of the great ironies of that Argentina team is that a manager known to be defensively orientated was given one of the greatest individual attacking talents to fit in which meant almost the entire creative onus was placed upon Maradona's shoulders. Found one clip which seems to sum up Maradona as a teamplayer for me: http://youtu.be/QZ3M6zN8c20?t=1m52s

There's some footage there of the shin high lunges Maradona danced through which would also illustrate just how different the game was - many of those tackles would be at least bookings, many straight reds, but he dances through them and it's only the chops aimed at his ankles from behind which take him down. Didn't spot any of the Bilbao love-fests held in his honour in there - but it's easy enough to find the 'butcher's' tackle. Maybe it's unfair to use that as a comparison because it's of its time, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Maradona went up against some of the finest defenders in the world in full no-holds barred, your season is over if the lunge lands, kicking contests and came through them with the defenders sat on their arses in the mud watching the ball go into the back of the net. Maradona had time on the ball because no-one could take it from him legitimately. There wasn't the acres of space and room of the 50s and 60s to play in - Garrincha and Matthews even - this was post-Total football pressing where magic coffee fuelled extreme levels of pressing. If he looks like he's got room and time, it's because he's made it himself by being just that good. In the same way even now Messi finds that pocket space to play in but without too much risk of the big bugger trailing in his wake trying to land two sets of studs on his achilles.

Some of the tackles he rides in that compilation are unreal.

For me, he is the best there has been.

Had absolutely everything.

Someone earlier mentioned the greats of the game always looking like they were 20yrs ahead of their era.

Maradona would fit seamlessly into todays football and still be one of, if not the best.

I'm not sure Messi would fit into Maradona's era so comfortably.

All opinion really of course.

The debate no doubt shall go on!

[Armand9]

Why the Fuss?

Imagine Messi built like a brick shithouse (a short one, granted) and playing on speed.

That's Maradona.

I've never seen anyone ride 'challenges' (read that as Assaults) like Maradona in an era where you could literally kick the shit out of a player with little to no protection, Messi's in kindergarten by comparison.

The most gifted and complete individual the game has ever seen. I know you were looking for a more complete answer than that but that simply is the answer, typing more words is simply wasting fingertip energy.

I love Messi and he is the talent of an age, but not Maradona's age, if he lived back then he'd feel like Ronaldo does now.... And if Maradona was playing now as he was back in his day, the outcome would be the same.

(And no, I'm not even a Maradona fanboy but you can't ignore what your eyes tell you).

[Brentieke]

It's impossible for me to seperate Diego the player and Diego the man, and I fucking love him both as a player and as a man.

He's the type of sportsman I adore. I always prefer the fiery, warrior types that are touched by the devil as well as the angels. It's why I could never take to the likes of Sampras, Federer, Messi et all... Even though they are obviously some of the greatest players in the history of their respective sports.

What Diego had to go through just makes me love him more. The fact he handballed against England, a country that had killed alot of his compatriots a few years before, and had the balls to come out and say it was the Hand of God... The fact that his teammates absolutely adored him because he fought for them, fought for their rights. The fact that he carried a crazy city like Naples on his shoulders, and a massive football nation like Argentina too- and it only made him stronger, not weaker.

Diego had that Warrior spirit which is rare in many players, even top ones. It's exactly why alot of us love Luis Suarez. Suarez is the major star in a weak Liverpool team, but he's the one who works the hardest, who you feel hurts the most when we lose. The type of player who is willing to rob his own grandmother at gunpoint if it meant he'd take home 3 points.

Diego had unbelievable passion. For the game, for his country. His burning eyes and the "son of bitches, son of bitches" when the Italians booed Argentina's national anthem in Rome before the final... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91a5-B20-YI . This was a man who was willing to die for his team, for his nation. I fall in love with those players, the likes of Mascherano, of Suarez. Because I'd be exactly the same if I ever wore the red shirts.

Diego had to fight for everything. He never backed down, never went missing. If there was a 22 men brawl, no fucking chance would he hide. He'd fight alongside his teammates, even though every single player on the opposing team would dwarf him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZQcFRxBecI

Allign all of that with his once in a lifetime talent and his unprecedented success at the grandest stage of them all, and that's why, in my opinion and according to what I like to see in a player, there will never be another one like him. Players are handled by PR agencies now. It's very rare to see footballers that are anything other than manufactured nowadays, be it by agents or advertising agencies.

Diego was authentic, in your face, 100pct talent, with the spirit of a raging bull who would back down from no-one and nothing. And he'd say it like is. The last thing he ever cared about was his image.

I leave you with this, a scene from the Kusterica documentary about Diego. It's him singing with his daughters, with montages of his up and down life in between. Great stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1vRR1iWS8

[ALPH1217]

He's also snorted enough cocaine in his life to kill about 10 elephants. Maradona the player - absolutely. Maradona off the field - you can have him.

[Brentieke]

He's also snorted enough cocaine in his life to kill about 10 elephants. Maradona the player - absolutely. Maradona off the field - you can have him.

I snorted nearly as much. Who fucking cares. He's doing well now, which is the most important thing, been clean for many years.

[the good half]

Still in my mind the greatest.
It was just my era.

Annecdote: My pal went on holiday to Spain in 1984.
He came back with about 8 replica shirts. Barcelona and Argentina.
We used to play against each other - all of course called Maradona.

The best

[legendkiller]

Amazing man . Really comes across as a man of the people.  I think his greatest achievement was dragging that Argentina team to the final of the world cup in 90. They beat the fancied Italian team in the semi final in Naples and most of the stadium were cheering on Maradona and his team mates ( south of Italy didnt really like the north or their teams back then and Deigo was their God) . Everytime Argentina lost the ball in that Tournament Maradona was the first one tracking back .

In 1994 if he wasnt sent home how far would they have gone considering they had a much stronger squad .

His comments on the hand of God were good too , something along the lines I am 5 foot 5 Shilton is 6 foot 2 both of us went for the ball and I won it .

[rushyman]

In 1994 if he wasnt sent home how far would they have gone considering they had a much stronger squad .
 

Its a shame with that goal he scored he had to show how off his tits he was to the camera

[Drinks Sangria]

Top post on the previous page Yorky, I go along with all of that. It's become an entirely familiar sight to see Messi do wondrous and unfamiliar things.

[legendkiller]

Its a shame with that goal he scored he had to show how off his tits he was to the camera

But the product he brought in the USA had different ingredients than what he was used to buying in South America   

[Rusty]

Also the pitches in Pele/Maradona's eras were absolute shite compared to the carpets that Messi plays on - which is a big deal considering how much all 3 of them relied on touch/close control/dribbling.

[Armand9]

I used to think Maradona was the best player I've seen, but I now think it's Messi. You sort of put your finger on why. We don't associate brilliance with consistency. Brilliance is meant to be mercurial and therefore some of the shine goes if a particular action - even a mazy run that takes out 4 opponents - is repeated over and over again. And of course Messi is consistent in that sense. He consistently beats men, he consistently controls the ball under ridiculous pressure, he consistently scores. He hardly ever loses the ball and when he does he makes a habit of getting it back straight away. Now maybe some of the fun is extinguished because of this permanent state of brilliance. You don't get the 'will he/won't he?' that you might have got with Maradona and Pele. Because with Messi you know 'he will'.

As football fans we all tend towards what amazed us when we were younger and less cynical. And, certainly, Pele and Maradona will always be my sporting idols. But I've got to say - and have said it many times to more bloody-minded mates - the greatest footballer who ever lived is Lionel Messi.

Until some other genius comes along.....

While I hear what you're saying, I can't agree with your overall point. Did they have bad games? Sure. Has Messi had bad games? Sure. However, all three were incredibly consistent in being fantastic players way beyond their peers. What I will grant you, is now we see more games, saturated in fact, so the wonder of Messi is constantly on show and (whatever country you live in) there's no way you could watch the world's best players across the globe at any given time until this modern age (outside of major tourneys, of course), so it's difficult to draw direct comparisons - and stats aren't a barometer either with the changes in conditions and rules etc.

Personally, I still view it as Pele, Maradona, Messi (he may get there but he's not there yet). But anyway, that's not this debate, it's why the fuss about Maradona -which I've already answered in the thread but a  would've sufficed in answer to that to be honest.

[rafathegaffa83]

Maradona won the World Cup on his own.

See now, I don't necessarily agree with this logic. The same as the logic that he won Serie A on his own with Napoli, despite the fact they had plenty of good players like Ciro Ferrara who were excellent in their own right. Back then there wasn't the same sort of disparities between clubs. The Argentine team was littered with players with plenty of effective players, who have effectively taken a backseat to Maradona with the public memory. For instance, Jorge Valdano, who scored four goals in Mexico '86, had also scored an impressive 33 goals in 58 games for Real Madrid up to that point.

Although the Argentine ’86 team doesn’t have many names that European fans would have known, this was clearly team that at the time was full of winners up to this point, many of whom had won trophies within four years of Mexico 86.

Bochini: 4 Argentine Primeras, 4 Copa Libertadores, 2 Copa Interamericanas, 2 Intercontinental Cups, 1 Argentine Player of the Year
Borghi: 2 Argentine Primeras, 1 Copa Libertadores, 1 Copa Interamericana
Brown: 2 Argentine Primeras
Burruchaga: 1 Argentine Primera, 1 Copa Libertadores, 1 Intercontinental Cup
Clausen: 1 Argentine Primera, 1 Copa Libertadores, 1 Intercontinental Cup
Enrique: 1 Argentine Primera, 1 Copa Libertadores, 1 Intercontinental Cup
Garre: 2 Argentine Primeras
Giusti: 1 Argentine Primera, 1 Copa Libertadores, 1 Intercontinental Cup
Islas: 1 Argentine Primera
Olarticoechea: 1 Argentine Primera
Pasculi: 2 Argentine Primeras
Pumpido: 1 Argentine Primera, 1 Copa Libertadores
Passarella: 1 World Cup, 6 Argentine Primeras, 1 Argentine Player of the Year
Ruggeri: 1 Copa Libertadores, 1 Intercontinental Cup, 1 Argentine Primera
Tapia: 1 Argentine Primera
Valdano: 2 La Ligas, 1 Copa Del Rey, 2 UEFA Cups, 1 Argentine Primera
Zelada: 2 Mexican Primeras

Total:

And that is without counting Maradona. Who knows how many of them would have played in Europe had it not been for foreign player quotas, military juntas etc.

They were also coached by one of the most intelligent mangers the game has probably ever seen in Carlos Bilardo. A man who had played over 450 games in the Argentine league for the likes of Estudiantes and San Lorenzo and was also a cancer researcher and gynecologist, while a player and manger for Estudiantes. A manager who took them to two consecutive World Cup Finals (they haven't got past the quarter-finals since). Bilardo had learned from Osvaldo Zubeldia, an influential manager who won three consecutive Copa Libertadores and was known for his methodical approach to tactics and researching opponents, as well as work with set pieces and tactical fouls. His Argentina team in 1986 was disciplined, pragmatic, results-oriented and set-up to exploit Maradona as the fulcrum of the side.  He broke with Menotti’s flair-based approach and went towards a more disciplined, European sweeper system designed to accommodate Maradona. He even went so far as to visiting Burruchaga, Valdano and Maradona in Europe and using their club teammates to demonstrate tactical approaches in tandem with videos. Thus, clearly although Maradona was an outstanding talent, to say he won the entire tournament on his own is wrong and unfair of the fact he was helped by an exceptional tactical mind in Bilardo and a collection of players, whose careers demonstrated a commitment to winning at club level. You could even argue Maradona's career went into a terminal decline after that World Cup, as he was banned for cocaine use and never won any other honours.
 

[owens_2k]

Did someone in this thread say its easier to score these days? Bullsh*t, if so!

[rushyman]

But the product he brought in the USA had different ingredients than what he was used to buying in South America   

Nah. Not for him. He'll have had people who could sort that Im quite certain.

Off his bonce on Peruvian flake imo

[Brentieke]

Did someone in this thread say its easier to score these days? Bullsh*t, if so!

Everything is weighted in favor of the attackers mate.

The offside law is more for the benefit of the strikers than in the 80s.
Referees are alot stricter with defenders. One mistimed tackle and you're off. Back in the 80s, you could butcher a player 10 times and only get a yellow.
The backpass law changing means there's more benefit to pressing than before, making defensive errors more commons.
The pitches are near pristine now, making technical and attacking football easier.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Fair point Brentie - it's a lot easier to be consistent on a fine surface, rather than a mixed bag. We saw ourselves at Oldham that poor pitches make technical football (whatever the level of ours at the minute) more difficult.

Also as you say, the rule changes you mention all benefit the attacker greatly.

[Antics]

I think there is a point to the appeal of mercurial, fleeting genius. It's what leads to the World Cup being the ultimate yardstick, especially during the 80s because that's the only time you'd actually see Maradona on a game to game basis.

It's what separates Messi in my opinion, Barcelona are viewed every single weekend, arguably the most watched club on the planet and Messi is the main event every time, and seemingly delivers, without fail. It's ridiculous.

[royhendo]

Need to dig out the pic of Kenny playing against him at Hampden.

[Yorkykopite]

Need to dig out the pic of Kenny playing against him at Hampden.

I actually remember Mcllvaney's report on this game in the Observer. It was the first time I'd heard of Maradona and Mcllvaney was saying that this 18 year-old kid had terrorised Scotland and brought Hampden to its feet. I think he compared the ovation to the one given to Real Madrid in '60. Never seen any footage though.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Need to dig out the pic of Kenny playing against him at Hampden.

[Finn Solomon]

Goodness me, he was slim as Suarez once.

[Phil M]

Goodness me, he was slim as Suarez once.

Yep Maradona was fairly slight aswell.

[lamonti]

Look at those trunks of legs he has!

One of my favourite Maradona memories was just before the kick off the 1990 World Cup against Cameroon, my first World Cup game ever, just turned 7, and he started juggling the ball on his shoulders.

I don't really care for the comparison. I think Messi is just out of this world. So was Maradona, but they're quite different in so many ways. But to refer to the OP, there were plenty of reasons for the fuss about Maradona, which many have eloquently elaborated on here.

[muyuu]

Everything is weighted in favor of the attackers mate.

The offside law is more for the benefit of the strikers than in the 80s.
Referees are alot stricter with defenders. One mistimed tackle and you're off. Back in the 80s, you could butcher a player 10 times and only get a yellow.
The backpass law changing means there's more benefit to pressing than before, making defensive errors more commons.
The pitches are near pristine now, making technical and attacking football easier.

Not only are refs a lot stricter with defenders, they are also very protecting of "superstars" who get calls nobody else gets. This didn't happen at all back then, and it's a common trend across several sports  (in the NBA "superstar calls" are getting ridiculous since Shaq times, when he was allowed to trample over defenders).

[ElCapo]

Diego was just the total package.

As many have said here, he was like a raging bull on the field. Imagine Messi's skills and talent and add Luis Suarez's tenacity and will to win. On top of that, put on Graeme Souness' leadership skills and the charisma of Romario. That was Diego.

Players on his team would die for him. He was THE global superstar of world football, yet he fought for his teammates rights all the time off the field. He didnt have dietitians and sports scientists following him at every corner, making sure he had x% of body fat. He was a street footballer, who partied the night before a game, ate a lot, drank alot, took alot of cocaine and still absolutely destroyed every team he faced.

No-one, not even Pele, has dominated a World Cup like Diego did. He took the 5th best team (at best) in the competition straight to the trophy. He scored the best goal in the history of the competition in the most emotional game in his country's history. In the same game, he scored the most notorious goal in the competition's history.

And the next game, the semi final, he scored 2 crackers too and provided the assist for the winner in the final.

Look at that winner again. He's surrounded by 4 German players. That's how absolutely terrified of him every team was, but he spins and plays in a gorgeous through ball.

The man as a footballer, was unreal. The man, as a man, was unbelievably charasmatic. There's actually a Church of Maradona in Argentina. I don't think any other player has his own church!

For me, he's the best player I've ever seen. I know this generation has a desperate need to elevate Messi as the best ever, but having seen the two, Diego is better for me.

Amen, Diego had so much soul.  Lionel leaves me cold

[ElCapo]

Everything is weighted in favor of the attackers mate.

The offside law is more for the benefit of the strikers than in the 80s.
Referees are alot stricter with defenders. One mistimed tackle and you're off. Back in the 80s, you could butcher a player 10 times and only get a yellow.
The backpass law changing means there's more benefit to pressing than before, making defensive errors more commons.
The pitches are near pristine now, making technical and attacking football easier.

Also, there is a real dearth of defenders in the modern game when Piqué and Sergio Ramos make it to the top 11.  Compare that with the likes of Baresi, Costacurta, Maldini, Tassotti, Bergomi, Ferri, Scirea, Cabrini who were much better defenders, and who could get away with a LOT more.

[Yorkykopite]

Lionel leaves me cold

You poor bastard.

[Brentieke]

You poor bastard.

I do get what he means though.

Messi, as a player, is a joy to watch. But he's a bit of a robot. No emotions, little passion, little fire. You'd never guess he was an Argentine.

Amazing player to watch and some may not give a bollocks about that. Me, I like to see that fire in a player. It's why I took so much pleasure in watching Mascherano play for us for example.

[Rohit]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/_any9RZaWVc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/_any9RZaWVc</a>