Author Topic: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday  (Read 83059 times)

Offline 6thSense

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #440 on: October 14, 2012, 06:41:04 pm »
I never single out players for criticism - but there's no need tonight, because we were uniformly awful.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #441 on: October 14, 2012, 06:42:46 pm »
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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #443 on: October 14, 2012, 06:51:28 pm »
So we should wait until we've been consistently at the top for 20 years?

Can't compare us to United.

Our shirt deals aren't that much less than them.
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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #444 on: October 14, 2012, 06:54:16 pm »
Our shirt deals aren't that much less than them.

Not the deal that kicks in next year, that blows us out of the water again. Also, the deal with Standard Charter was signed the season we came 2nd and were regularly in the Champions League. Were pretty far from that now.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #445 on: October 14, 2012, 06:56:20 pm »
Not the deal that kicks in next year, that blows us out of the water again. Also, the deal with Standard Charter was signed the season we came 2nd and were regularly in the Champions League. Were pretty far from that now.

What about the Warrior deal ?
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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #447 on: October 14, 2012, 07:00:34 pm »
What about the Warrior deal ?

No idea to be honest, but comparisons with the Mancs are weak at best. Being in the CL, regularly winning the league cant be comapred to finishing midtable and being in the Europa league. Were not the pull we once were, and I take no joy in saying that.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #448 on: October 14, 2012, 07:01:11 pm »
:lmao

It works out at £30m a year which in twenty years would likely to be chicken feed.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #449 on: October 14, 2012, 07:02:26 pm »
And I'll add - I've got many years of experience in project management and know for a fact that it can take years before any given business - public or private - decides to go ahead with a construction project (which are a fraction of the cost of the 150 million or so being bounded about for the redevelopment),so to wait two years seems reasonable in my mind. I mean - it's a project worth well over 100 million pounds - if they/we fuck up on this then we'll be put back for the next ten-twenty years paying it off. Someone please tell me if I'm wrong here, after all, I've personally never spent over 100 million quid on a stadium before (though there are some  .

Oh, and a quick question - people talk about FSG H&G etc etc making money out of the football club - can anyone tell me if Mr Robinson ever made any money out of LFC? Did he pump it all back into shankly's team?

But maybe that's a conversation for another day in another thread.

On the first point - exactly what anyone with any knowledge of development would know and understand. We've got one new project on site in Lndin that we first started working on in 2005. It's been put on hold twice due to changing circumstances including the 2008 recession. Just one a competition to. Work on another building - feasibility starts this month but we don't expect to start on site until 2015.

And on the second - until 1992 the Football Association prevented directors of clubs taking dividends - all profiles went back into the club. From an article by David Conn:

In 1892, the FA permitted Preston North End, football’s first great power, to convert itself from a members’ club into a limited company. Preston had, years earlier, been the first to break the rules against professionalism, paying good players from Scotland to come to the club at a time when paying players was still illicit. The club’s application to form a company was partly to raise new money, partly to limit its members’ personal liability for the increased operating expenses. The FA decreed in 1892 that a club could make itself into a company, but that dividends to shareholders must be restricted. Here was the basis for football’s future development: the clubs became businesses, which could pay players, build grounds, charge supporters for entry, and form themselves into companies. But the FA insisted they remain clubs in their culture. The supporter’s gut feeling that the club is a collective endeavour, an organisation he belongs to, not a company seeking profit for shareholders, was embedded in the regulations. Rule 34, requiring football club-companies to be run essentially as non-profit organisations, with their directors serving as ‘custodians’, was in the FA handbook until the late 1990s.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n16/david-conn/follow-the-money
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Offline jim fitz

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #450 on: October 14, 2012, 07:11:03 pm »
Heard 2 stewards at the end of last weeks game - talking about only having to fill 3 sides. I know im in the massive majority but i actually wanted a new ground, due to the lack of disruption it will cause. It will be a real bun fight to get tickets without my beloved LAR.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #451 on: October 14, 2012, 07:16:55 pm »
On the first point - exactly what anyone with any knowledge of development would know and understand. We've got one new project on site in Lndin that we first started working on in 2005. It's been put on hold twice due to changing circumstances including the 2008 recession. Just one a competition to. Work on another building - feasibility starts this month but we don't expect to start on site until 2015.

And on the second - until 1992 the Football Association prevented directors of clubs taking dividends - all profiles went back into the club. From an article by David Conn:

In 1892, the FA permitted Preston North End, football’s first great power, to convert itself from a members’ club into a limited company. Preston had, years earlier, been the first to break the rules against professionalism, paying good players from Scotland to come to the club at a time when paying players was still illicit. The club’s application to form a company was partly to raise new money, partly to limit its members’ personal liability for the increased operating expenses. The FA decreed in 1892 that a club could make itself into a company, but that dividends to shareholders must be restricted. Here was the basis for football’s future development: the clubs became businesses, which could pay players, build grounds, charge supporters for entry, and form themselves into companies. But the FA insisted they remain clubs in their culture. The supporter’s gut feeling that the club is a collective endeavour, an organisation he belongs to, not a company seeking profit for shareholders, was embedded in the regulations. Rule 34, requiring football club-companies to be run essentially as non-profit organisations, with their directors serving as ‘custodians’, was in the FA handbook until the late 1990s.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n16/david-conn/follow-the-money

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Offline mulfella

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #452 on: October 14, 2012, 07:17:15 pm »
FSG see the Club and the Stadium as separate entities.

What do you mean by this?

If you mean from a financing point of view, then that's normal and prudent.

You would want the stadium project to be financed without it damaging the normal cashflow of the Club entity.

I suspect thats what you mean, but it looks like you are then drawing an inference from that that FSG could take Anfield away from the club.

Many unscrupulous owners have done that and its incredibly damaging. I don't think though there is any current evidence to suggest that its a serious concern here.

If you've got something that says otherwise please share it.
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Offline Juanyboy

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #453 on: October 14, 2012, 07:19:06 pm »
Thanks Alan, interesting on the second point. Never knew that! Does raise a few Q's, but I'll wait till I find an appropriate place to post them.

Cheers  :)

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #454 on: October 14, 2012, 07:19:26 pm »
They also valued us at some ridiculous valuation so...

They were bang on the money about Arsenal though continually valuing them at $1200m exactly what they were sold for. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes%27_list_of_the_most_valuable_football_clubs
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #455 on: October 14, 2012, 07:22:49 pm »
What do you mean by this?

If you mean from a financing point of view, then that's normal and prudent.

You would want the stadium project to be financed without it damaging the normal cashflow of the Club entity.

I suspect thats what you mean, but it looks like you are then drawing an inference from that that FSG could take Anfield away from the club.

Many unscrupulous owners have done that and its incredibly damaging. I don't think though there is any current evidence to suggest that its a serious concern here.

If you've got something that says otherwise please share it.

From Kev VDM's questions to JWH

4.  How have NESV funded the £300m acquisition?
This simple answer is that we paid cash for LFC and left £37 million of stadium debt in place – even though there is no stadium in place – just a lot of expensive plans etc.  We view stadiums as separate from clubs.  They are separate entities.


"Ohhh-kayyy"

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #456 on: October 14, 2012, 07:22:56 pm »
Yes the interesting thing is that if you look at the graph there is only a green column from 2010 when FSG took over. It is almost certain that there is also acquisition debt higher up the organisation but FSG do not release financial details.

There's no red bar because Kop Holding no longer exists as far as Liverpool is concerned. There is 68m debt, which includes overdraft facilities reduced from 127m the previous year. If there is some other 'acquisition debt' that FSG used to buy the club it has fuck all to do with us.
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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #457 on: October 14, 2012, 07:24:24 pm »
If United put the naming rights up for sale for Old Trafford, how much do you think they'd get?
If Aston Villa did how much do you think they'd get?

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #458 on: October 14, 2012, 07:25:17 pm »
From Kev VDM's questions to JWH

4.  How have NESV funded the £300m acquisition?
This simple answer is that we paid cash for LFC and left £37 million of stadium debt in place – even though there is no stadium in place – just a lot of expensive plans etc.  We view stadiums as separate from clubs.  They are separate entities.

Doesnt say they have them separate to the club though in accounting sense.

As asked before, who owns Fenway and how is that deal set up?

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #459 on: October 14, 2012, 07:29:41 pm »
There's no red bar because Kop Holding no longer exists as far as Liverpool is concerned. There is 68m debt, which includes overdraft facilities reduced from 127m the previous year. If there is some other 'acquisition debt' that FSG used to buy the club it has fuck all to do with us.

It does if FSG expect us to pay off that debt at some point in the future and it does affect the Club indirectly if FSG come under financial pressure because of that debt.
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Offline Torpedo Tommy

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #460 on: October 14, 2012, 07:31:35 pm »
I think this post sums it up.

It's very frustrating for people who are reading the entire thread, to see the exact same thing over and over.

Eh? ???

I'm pretty much saying what the post you quoted below mine.  I can understand people having doubts about or supporting FSG.  I don't understand the complete polar opposites in terms of opinion which is leading to the aggressive ripostes

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #461 on: October 14, 2012, 07:33:38 pm »
From Kev VDM's questions to JWH

4.  How have NESV funded the £300m acquisition?
This simple answer is that we paid cash for LFC and left £37 million of stadium debt in place – even though there is no stadium in place – just a lot of expensive plans etc.  We view stadiums as separate from clubs.  They are separate entities.

So why do you believe we have acquisition debt hanging over us?

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #462 on: October 14, 2012, 07:34:51 pm »
Eh? ???

I'm pretty much saying what the post you quoted below mine.  I can understand people having doubts about or supporting FSG.  I don't understand the complete polar opposites in terms of opinion which is leading to the aggressive ripostes

Yeh I wasn't arguing or anything mate sorry if that wasn't clear

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #463 on: October 14, 2012, 07:37:22 pm »
Something else we have Rick parry to thank for.

Actually it was people like Franny Lee who fucked things up originally. When his consortium bought Man City they set up a holding company to circumvent the FA rules. Spurs were the first club to be floated and United took it to the next level, creating a cash cow for the owners.

I understand your concerns mate, and I have no doubt you heart is in the right place, but it wasn't American businessmen who fucked up our game, they are just riding on the back of the greed and venality of our own home-grown shit-bags.

I'm not going to rake over the Hicks stadium building issue again as I think it's a side issue - I saw your post and if you we're saying that Hicks might have built the stadium if it hadn't been for the recession I think you're probably right.

But if he had it would have been a disaster for the club. The stadium was wrong and would have crippled us financially. The relevance of the American Airlines Centre is that it was co-funded by Dallas City through taxes, the Mavericks and the Stars, so Hicks was kept in check.

Anyway. Can we stick to the actual story. FSG are not H&G.

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #464 on: October 14, 2012, 07:37:26 pm »
It does if FSG expect us to pay off that debt at some point in the future and it does affect the Club indirectly if FSG come under financial pressure because of that debt.

Lots of ifs though.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #465 on: October 14, 2012, 07:40:44 pm »
If Anfield is being redeveloped, does this mean we may have to play home games at the Pit for a while?

Unlikely. We could always do what Arsenal did back in the early 90s.


Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #466 on: October 14, 2012, 07:41:53 pm »
It does if FSG expect us to pay off that debt at some point in the future and it does affect the Club indirectly if FSG come under financial pressure because of that debt.
Have they stated that anywhere though, has there even been a hint of it? In every situation in life there are probably hundreds of things which could go wrong in the future but you don't obsess yourself about them, that's called paranoia.

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #467 on: October 14, 2012, 07:41:57 pm »
It does if FSG expect us to pay off that debt at some point in the future and it does affect the Club indirectly if FSG come under financial pressure because of that debt.

Through what mechanism and what debt?

Sorry mate, but in the quote from Kev that you posted Henry says clearly that they paid cash for the club, leaving an amount of debt primarily for the stadium.

From Kev VDM's questions to JWH

4.  How have NESV funded the £300m acquisition?
This simple answer is that we paid cash for LFC and left £37 million of stadium debt in place

You're asking me to say what would happen in an imaginary situation if FSG demanded Liverpool repay an imaginary debt. Sorry mate but I don't think that warrants a response.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 07:43:31 pm by Alan_X »
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #468 on: October 14, 2012, 07:46:20 pm »
So why do you believe we have acquisition debt hanging over us?

The sale of the NYT's shares valued FSG at $1.38bn when you look at the individual values of the Red Sox, LFC, NESV, NESM and a 50% share in Fenway Rousch Racing then the company has to have substantial debts. JWH pretty much admitted so.

We have some very successful partners – some of whom are big EPL fans – and we are well-financed internally.  But NESV has always had debt from the first day we purchased the Red Sox.  We have some partners who look at   Internal Rate of Return and almost demand that we have debt as a consequence.  Debt increases IRR.

I recently read the New York Yankees have $3.5 billion of debt, but I’ve never heard a Yankee fan complain about it.  I’ve never heard a Red Sox fan complain about the usage of credit.  Credit is probably more acceptable in American   culture than elsewhere.  But you have some people that are good at borrowing money and poor at investing beyond that.  There are others – and we feel we are in this camp – have lines of credit etc., that are good at running businesses prudently and invest in those businesses.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 07:58:23 pm by Al 555 »
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Offline mulfella

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #469 on: October 14, 2012, 07:46:43 pm »
From Kev VDM's questions to JWH

4.  How have NESV funded the £300m acquisition?
This simple answer is that we paid cash for LFC and left £37 million of stadium debt in place – even though there is no stadium in place – just a lot of expensive plans etc.  We view stadiums as separate from clubs.  They are separate entities.




I think thats perfectly clear. He says that they are accounting for the 2 things differently, not from a legal, eg tenancy sense.
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Offline krizzobizzle

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #470 on: October 14, 2012, 07:49:08 pm »
This is going to sound a bit mental ( I thought so too ) but my mate Tom who works at Anfield said they are going to make the Kop lengthways or something related to turning the way the stadium faces or something like that. Can anyone shed some light on this? do you feasibly think its possible for them to do that. I have had a think and cant think of any way it could be done while construction takes place, but I may be wrong.

Just as a pointer he's been right on a few things club related in the past year or so i cant see this one though. I have said if he's right ill pay for next years season ticket.

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #471 on: October 14, 2012, 07:49:10 pm »
It's got nothing to do with having shirt sponsors.

Naming stadiums over here just doesn't attract the same amount as in the US, and for the foreseeable future will not.

Do we wait around until they do?

Craig, seeing as your all over this in both threads now, can you categorically assure us that there will be redev at the ground commencing in 2014? If so, what gives you that confidence?
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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #472 on: October 14, 2012, 07:51:25 pm »
I am surprised that people bring up the specter of naming rights since we are staying at Anfield. Who in their right minds would pay a premium for having their 'official' name at Anfield or Old Trafford? No one would ever refer to those stadiums by there corporate sponser names.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #473 on: October 14, 2012, 07:52:53 pm »
I am surprised that people bring up the specter of naming rights since we are staying at Anfield. Who in their right minds would pay a premium for having their 'official' name at Anfield or Old Trafford? No one would ever refer to those stadiums by there corporate sponser names.

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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #474 on: October 14, 2012, 07:55:04 pm »
This is going to sound a bit mental ( I thought so too ) but my mate Tom who works at Anfield said they are going to make the Kop lengthways or something related to turning the way the stadium faces or something like that. Can anyone shed some light on this? do you feasibly think its possible for them to do that. I have had a think and cant think of any way it could be done while construction takes place, but I may be wrong.

Just as a pointer he's been right on a few things club related in the past year or so i cant see this one though. I have said if he's right ill pay for next years season ticket.

I assume he's talking about turning the pitch through 90 degrees. Almost certainly not feasible or sensible. It would be a complete rebuild due to the way the roofs are supported.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
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Offline Warks Moustache

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #475 on: October 14, 2012, 07:56:29 pm »
Craig, seeing as your all over this in both threads now, can you categorically assure us that there will be redev at the ground commencing in 2014? If so, what gives you that confidence?

Well no one can categorically assure you that redeveloping Anfield will start in 2014. What I can assure you that getting the Council to agree to a new deal with the Club to redevelop Anfield is a major milestone in our quest to increase stadium capacity. Ever since 2008, the City has been adamant that the club stick to the original Stanley Park designs and this represents a major policy shift.

Its something I personally applaud, and I am confused as to why people look upon this development so negatively.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #476 on: October 14, 2012, 07:57:07 pm »
Craig, seeing as your all over this in both threads now, can you categorically assure us that there will be redev at the ground commencing in 2014? If so, what gives you that confidence?

Not really fair. No one can say categorically what will happen in 2014. Anyone who works in construction or architecture could tell you that.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline CraigDS

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #477 on: October 14, 2012, 07:58:48 pm »
Craig, seeing as your all over this in both threads now, can you categorically assure us that there will be redev at the ground commencing in 2014? If so, what gives you that confidence?

Of course not, I have no different sources than anyone else can have - reading a few local resident forums, etc.

I have confidence the club has clearly done a lot of work alongside the council in order for LCC to push ahead with what will be unpopular CPOs.

Offline Warks Moustache

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #478 on: October 14, 2012, 07:59:00 pm »
The FA Cup sponsored by

Budweiser is it? The fact that I am not sure speaks volumes  to the merit of naming stadiums that have already have historic names. Sure St. James was the 'Sports Direct Arena' but no one ever called it that.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Announcement on Anfield redevelopment due Monday
« Reply #479 on: October 14, 2012, 08:02:26 pm »

Its something I personally applaud, and I am confused as to why people look upon this development so negatively.

Because the negativity has nothing to do with the stadium itself. It's about people's agendas.

I'm tempted to lock this until the announcement is actually made.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.