Topic: Re: John Henry's open letter to fans

[cox3100]

And Arsenal had a goalscoring machine.

so do we,he just seems to miss alot of chances at Liverpool,check his goalscoring record everywhere he has been(exept at LFC) and internationaly.


you never know,he could start banging them in more regularly(maybe)

[Stanfo]

If only you had made that your first post rather than your last.  we could all have saved a lot of time.

Was just about to say, I'm not sure about the earlier posts but the last one is exactly my feelings on the matter (without the Newcastle reference), power vacuums, poor communication and a lack of accountability in the levels of management above the manager. If you put those negatives into any business scenario you would end up with the same fuck ups as on the last day of the window.

[Resurrected]

It's not about Dempsey. It's about some anonymous guy with a spreadsheet  overriding the decisions of the manager.

That was the way i saw it at first and i find it a little difficult to get away from that thinking.

However, i think it's more about Henry saying that you've had your money and spent it, and i'm not giving you more money to spend on a player that doesn't fit the profile we'd previously agreed on.

[shelovesyou]

My agenda is crystal clear the Club needs to put a structure in place and get back to collective responsibility. We were within touching distance of the Premiership in 08/09 and since then we have been destroyed by people taking advantage of power vacuums. FSG need to put in place a culture of collective responsibility and stop chucking scapegoats under the bus.

I for one are sick to fucking death of off the record briefings and Senior figures at the Club playing out power struggles through the press. If FSG aren't prepared to grasp that nettle and do what Ashley did at Newcastle and put a structure in place then the Club will never move forward.

They need to stop apologising for Suarez, Rodgers needs to stop writing open letters about the players not waving to the fans and Henry needs to stop writing open letters about transfers and we need to grow a pair and stop pandering and start acting.

The Mods can breath a sigh of relief because that is me out of here.

Al, i hear all of that loud and clear, and agree entirely, although using Mike Ashley as a yardstick is a tad depressing
I know you mean well, we all do, but we have to stick to the facts and not scare people into believing stuff that just isnt true.
Yer a well respected poster who articulates his point very well but im afraid A responsibility comes with that.

[shelovesyou]

That was the way i saw it at first and i find it a little difficult to get away from that thinking.

However, i think it's more about Henry saying that you've had your money and spent it, and i'm not giving you more money to spend on a player that doesn't fit the profile we'd previously agreed on.

No, its about Henry feeling that he, along with FSG and the Board at LFC, are capable of making footballing decisions.

[Resurrected]

No, its about Henry feeling that he, along with FSG and the Board at LFC, are capable of making footballing decisions.

The way i see it is that Henry has not exercised any influence beyond financial control. Unfortunately, football and finances run hand in hand. It's important not to get the two confused.

[Nana]

No, its about Henry feeling that he, along with FSG and the Board at LFC, are capable of making footballing decisions.

Henry and FSG own Liverpool FC. If they don't want to buy players at the age of 29, with no upside and re-sale value, then we won't be buying such players. It is as simple as that.

[Disenfranchised]

Most seem to have FSG down as sharp businessmen who whilst know little about the subject of European football are very intelligent men.

I wish some would answer me this -

They have admitted themselves the positives of the club when they took over - the Academy, the coaching structure put in place. The club have then followed that up with action & with removed players (apparent deadwood that just 3 years ago had the club ranked No.1 in Europe so must have been doing something) & retained others.

As shrewd, intelligent businessmen who themselves admit they know little or nothing about their subject would it not show some competency to check out the views of the man who put the positives in place at the club? The fact he also happens to be an anorak of the subject you admit you know little about, lived through the whole H&G debacle, has been very successful in said field & justs lives round the corner, would you not think it prudent for those who want the best for their business & claim to canvass widely before making informed decisions, would approach any individual like described to get his/her opinions?

They take advice from these pre-emiment names in football? I think we'll piss ourselves laughing when we find out who they are. Alex Ferguson, maybe?

With the stance they have shown regarding Rafa Benitez from as early as denigrating him to defend Roy Hodgson, I would not be surprised that H&G were actually part of their group. (& no I don't want Rafa back at LFC - wouldn't wish the job on my worst enemy as this club is nothing but a shell)

At the end of the transfer window at least it clear why they only considered young,unproven,inexperienced managers for the managers job. Ther's no way a top coach would have let that happen. Could you imagine a Capello or a Benitez after that! BOOM!!!!

& JWH do me a favour. Don't insult my intelligence. You're only here for the profit & that's fine just be honest. You're an investment company, just say nothing - don't lie.   

[shelovesyou]

SOS -

Following yet another summer where off the pitch activities at Liverpool Football Club have dominated the headlines, we once again find the club ownership attempting to explain away business decisions that have overshadowed footballingmatters.
 
Spirit of Shankly reiterates its stance that the position of manager at Liverpool Football Club should be supported with all of the resources at the club’s disposal. However, events of last Friday and the subsequent “open letter” from the club’s Principal Owner, John W Henry, indicate that almost two years into FSG's ownership of the club this is not yet the case.
 
As pointed out by the union in May, there remains no ownership presence on this side of the Atlantic. It is our opinion that this situation has led directly to the "mistakes" alluded to in Mr Henry's open letter. Should the club’s absentee owners not wish to establish a full-time base in Liverpool, it remains imperative that they appoint a Chief Executive of acalibre commensurate with the club’s global status, to act with the full authority of the owners in their absence. Without this Chief Executive, it is far from sufficient for a club of Liverpool’s stature to have a part-time Chairman, based on another continent, with various other interests, and from whom little or nothing of consequence is seen or heard. In case FSG need reminding, they are now employing their third manager, have already dispensed with the services of their Director of Football and now accusatory fingers are pointing in the direction of their Managing Director.
 
 
The questions posed of FSG by Spirit of Shankly during the close season remain unanswered. If the board is based in Boston, why has no Liverpool-based Chief Executive been appointed to oversee the club’s affairs? It is almost two years since Liverpool Football Club was sold to FSG, with the stadium development being a condition of the sale, yet still no decisions have been made and still communication with fans and neighbouring residents alike remains patchy at best. Commendably FSG will not sanction the spending of money the club has not got, but why not increase the money available to the club through selling shares to supporters?
 
There comes a point at any football club where the Chairman has to step forward on behalf of the board and be held accountable for decisions that they have made and strategies that they have implemented. With key questions continuing to go unanswered, Spirit of Shankly suggests it is time for Tom Werner to be held accountable as Chairman of Liverpool Football Club. After all, the buck stops with him, not with those acting with his authority and not with people no longer at the club.

[redmark]

Our big concern is that we now dont have a good strikeforce, and in fact our goal threat has been drastically diminished with the loss of Bellamy and Andy Carroll.  To allow that to happen someone in the hierahy at the club (not Rogers) has cocked up and done it big style.  The fact JWH felt obliged to make a public statement shows how much unhappiness there is about those decisions.

I agree completely that we need another striker (if not two). However, to disagree slightly on two points - firstly, why does Rodgers get a pass for the failure? It's not clear at all that any one individual was to blame - equally, it's not clear at all that any one individual was entirely blameless. Dempsey and Sturridge are not the only strikers in world football.

Secondly - "drastically diminished" is pushing it, I think. Bellamy, Carroll, Kuyt and Maxi managed 29 goals in 145 total appearances in all competitions between them last season. Of course, we want to score more goals than last season (and that's where the transfer failure bites us) - but at the moment, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that Borini, Sterling, Cole, Downing and Morgan might equal that figure. One thing I'd happily bet on is that each goal will cost rather less in wages than it did last season from that group. What we might have added to that, with the right striker, is the shame of the transfer window.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Al, i hear all of that loud and clear, and agree entirely, although using Mike Ashley as a yardstick is a tad depressing

Isn't it just?

And someone remind me what exactly was the Newcastle fans' opinion of Mike Ashley and his 'structure' until a very few months ago? I seem to recall it was early delight, followed by the loss of a fan legend accompanied by sheer hatred, relegation, more sackings, prostitution of a time-honoured stadium, selling a favourite son and star (with, IIRC, no replacement lined up) and then renewal to the point where some people are holding up his regime as a model for us. Five years or so of major change and fan despair.

May be worth a reflection for some.

[MichaelA]

yeah but this is modern Liverpool.

And Arsenal had a goalscoring machine.

Please, for our sake, but also for yours - turn that frown upside down.

[MichaelA]

SOS -

My word, when did they develop a spine?

[pooley]

I think John Lennon said it best.

No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky
Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocketful of hope
Money for dope
Money for rope

[Paul-LFC]

yeah but this is modern Liverpool.

And Arsenal had a goalscoring machine.

There are no "yeah but"s about it. We have played three games. THREE. A week ago we more than matched last season's champions, we dominated them for the majority of the match and they drew only because of two mistakes from us, without which we almost certainly would have walked away with three points. But seemingly that's all been forgotten. Again, it's three games. You can't judge anything from three games, so there's no point pretending that you can.

[GBF]

A year ago Arsenal were beaten 8-2 by United and were on 1 point after 3 games with a goal difference of -8. Spurs were bottom with 0 points after 2 games and a goal difference of -7.

We were 3rd with 7 points and a GD of 4

Manchester United inflicted total humiliation on Arsenal and their embattled manager Arsene Wenger with a brutal victory at Old Trafford.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/14606020

Funny old game football. The one thing that's certain is that you can tell fuck all after three games.

Apart from the Bayern and the City game, it has been consistently shite.  Cannot compare Arsenal to us.  They have Wenger who has the experience of the league and experience in finishing in top four.  We have a depleted team and a manager who had 1 season in premier league and finished below us (when we had a shite season), scored less and conceded more.

[Wideboy]

That part in TB's Times' article where he talks about Ayre's hands being tied by FSG's restrictions just highlights that we need someone, a CEO, GM, call him whatever (or her for that matter), that will get things done for the good of the club.  Ayre needs to tell the owners things they may not want to hear, but will respect in the long term.  Same goes for his relationship with Rodgers.  This person needs to be an effective conduit between the owners from across the sea and day-to-day operations here in the UK and Europe.

From all the noise coming out, it doesn't appear as though Ayre is that person, at least not right now.

For me, the ideal person would be one with top level experience, and understanding of the way our league works, and intelligence when it comes to the mix of football and business.

That person being David Dein

[Resurrected]

I agree completely that we need another striker (if not two). However, to disagree slightly on two points - firstly, why does Rodgers get a pass for the failure?

Our bad start to the season has created this blame game. It's totally ridiculous.

Let's blame the owners for not providing more money. No, wait, let's blame Ayre. Not sure what he's done wrong but he's an idiot anyway and a favourite for abuse. No, second thoughts, we'll blame ourselves for not making enough noise against Arsenal. I know, i'll be radical and blame Gerrard, you know, that geezer that's carried us on his back for a decade.

What we won't do, is blame the manager or any of the younger players. That'll be like killing Bambi and will cause everyone to have a go at us.

The simple reason why we're blaming all and sundry is because we haven't got a goalscorer, which is why we've had a shit start to the season. Who was responsible for recruiting players?  The buck starts and stops with the manager. He fucked up, but it's only a mistake and i suggest we don't crucify him for it. Let's get together, get behind the team, and see if we can't make things better.

[horne]

mark palios for me
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Palios

[CraigDS]

There are no "yeah but"s about it. We have played three games. THREE. A week ago we more than matched last season's champions, we dominated them for the majority of the match and they drew only because of two mistakes from us, without which we almost certainly would have walked away with three points. But seemingly that's all been forgotten. Again, it's three games. You can't judge anything from three games, so there's no point pretending that you can.

And their captain said it was the hardest game he has ever played in the PL.

[Stussy]

Filo i know that. But somewhere the decision was made to cull almost half the team and not replace them.

I have no problem with that direction, as long as you cover your bases. We clearly did not.

Allen is a good player, Borini has potential, Sahin is a good player (but we dont own him). I have no problem with rogers vision.

I just think it was foolish, and i said it all window, to offload so many players at once, and not bring in replacements. The squad has always been on the thin side over the years and its at its worse ever.

Not only that you pile a lot of pressure on the new lads to immediately perform. like last year for instance and look at the stick some of those lads get. Will Sahin, Borini, Asaaid get the same treatment if they dont hit the ground running this yera? or will they escape that just because of their cost? Which in any case is wrong anyway.

Got to say, this is exactly what I was thinking about last night as a drifted off to sleep, worst case scenario along this line.

[CraigDS]

We have a depleted team and a manager who had 1 season in premier league and finished below us (when we had a shite season), scored less and conceded more.

With a team that cost less all together than our 'star striker' and probably on less per year than we were still paying 2 players out on loan.

[redmark]

The simple reason why we're blaming all and sundry is because we haven't got a goalscorer, which is why we've had a shit start to the season. Who was responsible for recruiting players?  The buck starts and stops with the manager. He fucked up, but it's only a mistake and i suggest we don't crucify him for it. Let's get together, get behind the team, and see if we can't make things better.

Agreed. I'm not looking to crucify anyone, only to acknowledge that Rodgers has a part in the transfer deadline problems - and repeatedly talking about them since. It was a mistake, but not an unforgivable one - as long it's learned from and the backbiting and press-briefing doesn't derail our season entirely.

[Resurrected]

Agreed. I'm not looking to crucify anyone, only to acknowledge that Rodgers has a part in the transfer deadline problems - and repeatedly talking about them since. It was a mistake, but not an unforgivable one - as long it's learned from and the backbiting and press-briefing doesn't derail our season entirely.

I think that makes about 3 of us 

[Believe]

yeah but this is modern Liverpool.

And Arsenal had a goalscoring machine.

Prior to last season no one would have described RvP as a 'goal scoring machine' - there's no reason Suarez can't/won't/shouldn't score 20 premiership goals. He got 11 last season having missed 9 games through suspension and hit the post umpteen times. As Alan says, it's a funny old game so I think the best we can do as supporters is, erm, support until at least the end of January before we start looking for people to lynch.

We stronger together than divided and infighting.

[montysmum]

Ah the FSG motto. Last Jan we had to wait and see if them not backing Kenny was right, then wait and see if sacking him was right, wait and see what world class manager they had lined up. Oh right there was no manager lined up but let's wait and see what they're recruitment process brings, oh its BR but let's wait and see how he fits with the structure they've outlined with a DoF, oh right no more DoF, let's wait and see how they back their man who they wanted so much they dropped the structure that stopped them looking at Rafa and co. You can't judge transfer window until its close let's wait and see how we look in Sept, oh short of numbers and goals, oh well let's wait and see how we go until Jan......

What a bloody great post.  depressingly true

[mallin9]

the best we can do as supporters is, erm, support

You'll Never Walk Alone mate.  well said.

[Upinsmoke]

Hmmm, does seem like that. I honestly don't think anybody expected a quick fix, in fact most appreciate things will take time but its the reckless nature that i've seen since FSG took over that worries me. Its like some decisons are made on a whim. People say we lack decision making on the pitch, its the decisons off the pitch that are bewildering. Its like they paid out millions getting rid of kenny and co, but then there super stringent with everyone else. Surely it was more viable to give Kenny a little more time with this current crop than spunking millions on firing him and comolli, then paying compo to swansea, selling every player at a loss and having a small transfer budget for the incoming manager.

[Resurrected]

Hmmm, does seem like that. I honestly don't think anybody expected a quick fix, in fact most appreciate things will take time but its the reckless nature that i've seen since FSG took over that worries me. Its like some decisons are made on a whim. People say we lack decision making on the pitch, its the decisons off the pitch that are bewildering. Its like they paid out millions getting rid of kenny and co, but then there super stringent with everyone else. Surely it was more viable to give Kenny a little more time with this current crop than spunking millions on firing him and comolli, then paying compo to swansea, selling every player at a loss and having a small transfer budget for the incoming manager.

Or perhaps they felt given the manager over £100 million and finishing 8th, it was best to cut their losses and start again. Not saying i agree, but you need to look at it from both sides.

[harleydanger]

No the owners, who confess themselves to knowing the square root of fuck all about football, making footballing decisions.
Clear ?

There's probably 2 clubs in the world where the board has no say in signings

[WaltonRed]

No, its about Henry feeling that he, along with FSG and the Board at LFC, are capable of making footballing decisions.

That for me is a key point: its bonkers for an organisation to appoint someone and then undermine him on his level of expertise.  Its one thing for the owners to say "your budget is £XM and we cannot afford to give you more".  that is legitimate and a manager has to swallow it.  its quite different for an owner - and particularly one who has no knowledge of football to say - " you can spend £XM on this player but not on that player".  that way lies total madness.

In any case the whole idea of using spreadsheet analysis to decide on player purchases is nonsensical.  it assumes that young players will always be worth more at the end of a contract than the beginning and it is part of a philosophy which knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

If Van Persie is the difference between United winning the league or the Champions League does that not make this 29 year old worth his huge purchase price?

Was McCallister worth buying even on a free at age 35?

What about Dalglish - a club record buy aged 27; we got no resale value on him but he didnt do too badly.

That they undermine the manager is bad enough; that they did it using a statistical analysis that is utterly unsuited to teh world of football only exacerbates matters.

[shelovesyou]

There's probably 2 clubs in the world where the board has no say in signings

You know what I mean mate.

[LiverBirdKop]

Or perhaps they felt given the manager over £100 million and finishing 8th, it was best to cut their losses and start again. Not saying i agree, but you need to look at it from both sides.

The same manager who took us to 2 cup finals winning one?

And who appointed Comolli (recommended by one of FSG's baseball buddies)who you seem to have forgotten about?

[BreakfastPercy]

Ah the FSG motto. Last Jan we had to wait and see if them not backing Kenny was right, then wait and see if sacking him was right, wait and see what world class manager they had lined up. Oh right there was no manager lined up but let's wait and see what they're recruitment process brings, oh its BR but let's wait and see how he fits with the structure they've outlined with a DoF, oh right no more DoF, let's wait and see how they back their man who they wanted so much they dropped the structure that stopped them looking at Rafa and co. You can't judge transfer window until its close let's wait and see how we look in Sept, oh short of numbers and goals, oh well let's wait and see how we go until Jan......

This is just pathetic hysteria, but I'm sure some will identify with it. Of course we have to wait and see, unless the Clint Dempsey money was invested in a crystal ball. Apparently now even the cyclical nature of football, and gathering data before drawing conclusions, is a stick to beat the owners with. You've just conveniently made up scenarios where apparently FSG have asked for time, when really only a few of those situations that actually have.

[won ton]

We keep treading over this 100 million pound ground, don't forget over half of that came straight from the team, we got rid of over 60 million worth of talent, it's not like we kept Torres Meireles babel and the like. And added 100 million pounds worth of talent too it. I think throwing the 100 million pound around gives the illusion we should be 100 million pounds a better side when more than half is merely replacing what we had. Not denying we spent what we had poorly because we did.

I still think two cup finals last year was fantastic and though the league form poor I honestly 100'percent think Kenny would of improved it. Wel never know I'm right behind Rodgers but have very little faith in FSG to make us competitive.

[WaltonRed]

Henry and FSG own Liverpool FC. If they don't want to buy players at the age of 29, with no upside and re-sale value, then we won't be buying such players. It is as simple as that.

yes, obviously they can decide whatever transfer policy they want; its their prerogative as owners.

Just as we have the right to point out that such a transfer policy is shortsighted, betrays a fundamental ignorance of football, and is alarmingly counter-productive.

How old was McCallister when we bought him and he helped us win the treble?

Alex Ferguson knows a thing or 2 about football (sad to say) but Henry would have vetoed the purchases of Cantona and Sheringham!

[Resurrected]

The same manager who took us to 2 cup finals winning one?

And who appointed Comolli (recommended by one of FSG's baseball buddies)who you seem to have forgotten about?

I didn't forget about it, i'm trying to get things in context and look at things from both sides.

My own opinion is that they made a monumental cock up in getting rid of Kenny. I was livid and it's still a sore point. I felt that if he had been allowed to get Jelavic in January, or add one or two more this window, then we'd be genuine contenders. Even Mr Ferguson shared that opinion.

But FSG obviously saw things differently. They laid down a plan of what they wanted; young players with potential and a re-sale value capable of achieving CL football.  They wanted value for money. What they, and many people, think they got was journeymen footballers in their mid to late twenties, on big contracts, with very little re-sale value. These same players didn't reach top 4 and couldn't even qualify for europa league football through their league results. They obviously felt that their agenda wasn't being adhered to and that the team had grossly under-achieved. Based on that view, many clubs would probably have made the same decision.

[WaltonRed]

I didn't forget about it, i'm trying to get things in context and look at things from both sides.

My own opinion is that they made a monumental cock up in getting rid of Kenny. I was livid and it's still a sore point. I felt that if he had been allowed to get Jelavic in January, or add one or two more this window, then we'd be genuine contenders. Even Mr Ferguson shared that opinion.

But FSG obviously saw things differently. They laid down a plan of what they wanted; young players with potential and a re-sale value capable of achieving CL football.  They wanted value for money. What they, and many people, think they got was journeymen footballers in their mid to late twenties, on big contracts, with very little re-sale value. These same players didn't reach top 4 and couldn't even qualify for europa league football through their league results. They obviously felt that their agenda wasn't being adhered to and that the team had grossly under-achieved. Based on that view, many clubs would probably have made the same decision.

That is what puzzles me; this assumption that one can identify resale value.  Buying and selling players is such a difficult art; even the best managers get it wrong.  so the idea that one can base ones entire transer strategy on identifying undervalued players who are sure to be a success and sure to make teh club is fundamentally dangerous.
It can work but the exceptions are more frequent than the successes. 

[memoriesgone]

Ah the FSG motto. Last Jan we had to wait and see if them not backing Kenny was right, then wait and see if sacking him was right, wait and see what world class manager they had lined up. Oh right there was no manager lined up but let's wait and see what they're recruitment process brings, oh its BR but let's wait and see how he fits with the structure they've outlined with a DoF, oh right no more DoF, let's wait and see how they back their man who they wanted so much they dropped the structure that stopped them looking at Rafa and co. You can't judge transfer window until its close let's wait and see how we look in Sept, oh short of numbers and goals, oh well let's wait and see how we go until Jan......

Ahh mate that's one way of looking at it. It's just that we've slipped so far down since Rafa's successful reign (bar the final year), I guess it's about trying to look at the improvements from season to season for me. Roy Hodgson was a bad decision. He set us back 5 years at least. I think KK could have done well if given the time or he may have taken more time to find the right mantra (given he had been out of the game for so long). We just can't sack manager after manager and expect to maintain a good position in the league when we have sold all our best players since Rafa and not really replaced them. We're not Chelsea are we? They sack AVB after just 7-8 months and put RDM who leads them to the CL and gets them off to a great start. Is it because he's a great manager or is it because he has the resources to get the best players? Do they always spend bulk of money on the right players? Obviously they don't and there have been far too many instances of big money signings failing at CFC. But for every 10 multi million buck signing there are at least 4 who succeed.

I'm sick of all the change and I guess the owners are as well. Quick fixes are huge risks. There is no guarantee that they work. I would rather we build slowly but build strongly. When Rafa first came we had a tough season in a league that wasn't as strong as it is now. It wasn't until 3-4 years after he arrived did we push for the title. Right now a CL place is like a title push in those days but as Newcastle proved last year, you don't need years to build a squad to challenge for the top 4. We're probably 2-3 signings off that race anyway. I would rather we waited and bought the right players instead of picking from a handful of options. That's probably just me. The last few years have taught me that to get out of this jail we're in, we need to build slowly. We may have signed a goal scorer this window but still struggled with results when you imagine we'd have to play Spearing Adam Gerrard in midfield. We've addressed the midfield and the wings and that's good improvement. There are youngsters looking likely to break through and some who have come of age. I want stability in our club because only stability will get us back to where we were. That's why I would give this manager time and I hope the owners do as well. From what they say, they're not expecting any major improvement this season. If they did, we wouldn't have such a thin squad with so many players slashed off the wage bill anyway. It's us fans who are creating all this uproar and panicking at a time when we need to offer our support to the team. But that's just how I look at it.

[Resurrected]

That is what puzzles me; this assumption that one can identify resale value.  Buying and selling players is such a difficult art; even the best managers get it wrong.  so the idea that one can base ones entire transer strategy on identifying undervalued players who are sure to be a success and sure to make teh club is fundamentally dangerous.
It can work but the exceptions are more frequent than the successes.

Absolutely agree.

The likes of Arsenal who seem to be able to turn a mexican roadsweeper into a world class player on a regular basis, are the exception rather than the rule.

Having said that, Joe Allen looks a snip at 15m and picking up a 21 year old Italian international striker for 11m looks great business, so maybe there might be something in it. We can only wait and see.