Topic: Virgin Trains loses West Coast Mainline - ***3/10/12 Tender to be re-run!***

[blurred]

I was on a transpennine express train few weeks ago and some weird announcement was made that all tickets were valid except any which was purchased on behalf of cross country services.  Apparently both companies are at loggerheads.  Cue passengers getting the grilling and asked to purchase a completely new ticket simply because they'd gone for the cheapest after buying at a ticket machine.  It's madness.  It would appear now that before you buy a ticket you need to analyse which companies are willing to work together.

That's pretty standard, though - they're just ensuring that people are travelling on open tickets (ie can be used on any train), or that they have reserved seats for that specific train.

If you have a ticket for another train (eg a York-Newcastle on East Coast instead of First Trans-Pennine) it's nothing to do with the companies not working together and everything to do with you just simply not having a valid ticket. Why would you assume that if you're booked on the 1200 East Coast train that you can just rock up and use the 1130 FTP one? That's the whole reason you book specific trains and the reason you get cheaper prices. Not especially hard to understand.

[Kez]

Had a lovely peaceful trip back from Euston to Wigan last night. On time, only person in the coach was me, nice chat with the train manager who woke me up when we were just outside Wigan and I got a free cup of tea.

I've been trying to book tickets for November but can't seem to find any of the advance fares. Has anyone found any?

[gazzalfc]

I've been trying to book tickets for November but can't seem to find any of the advance fares. Has anyone found any?

http://www.farefinder.virgintrains.co.uk/

Can be good.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Tories wont give a toss about that.  Nothing will be changed.  Virgin and west coast franchise is not the problem.  It's merely one element of a bigger problem re rail transport in particular.  I was on a transpennine express train few weeks ago and some weird announcement was made that all tickets were valid except any which was purchased on behalf of cross country services.  Apparently both companies are at loggerheads.  Cue passengers getting the grilling and asked to purchase a completely new ticket simply because they'd gone for the cheapest after buying at a ticket machine.  It's madness.  It would appear now that before you buy a ticket you need to analyse which companies are willing to work together.

If you buy a ticket that is valid when you got on the train it's valid. You should have got the Police. They would have enforced your travel to your destination.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Had a lovely peaceful trip back from Euston to Wigan last night. On time, only person in the coach was me, nice chat with the train manager who woke me up when we were just outside Wigan and I got a free cup of tea.

I've been trying to book tickets for November but can't seem to find any of the advance fares. Has anyone found any?

Usually out 12 weeks in advance, occasionally they don't bother doing it on time.

[gregor]

Tories wont give a toss about that.  Nothing will be changed.  Virgin and west coast franchise is not the problem.  It's merely one element of a bigger problem re rail transport in particular.  I was on a transpennine express train few weeks ago and some weird announcement was made that all tickets were valid except any which was purchased on behalf of cross country services.  Apparently both companies are at loggerheads.  Cue passengers getting the grilling and asked to purchase a completely new ticket simply because they'd gone for the cheapest after buying at a ticket machine.  It's madness.  It would appear now that before you buy a ticket you need to analyse which companies are willing to work together.

Isn't that the same thing as getting on a Virgin train to London with a London Midland ticket?

[Kez]

Usually out 12 weeks in advance, occasionally they don't bother doing it on time.

That's what I thought and I can usually find some heavily discounted single tickets but this time there's absolutely nothing showing but standard off peak fares for November weekends. As the changeover is meant to happen on 9th December I'm wondering if they've just not bothered making any advanced cheap tickets available!

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

That's what I thought and I can usually find some heavily discounted single tickets but this time there's absolutely nothing showing but standard off peak fares for November weekends. As the changeover is meant to happen on 9th December I'm wondering if they've just not bothered making any advanced cheap tickets available!

Good point that. Possibly raking as much in as possible?

If you don't mind a longer trip, London Midland do super off peak for £26.50 from here, just takes a week (3.5 hrs)

[Anthony]

Just been announced the tender is to be "re-run"...!

BBC News Channel - "Significant flaws found in process - Have not calculated risks of bid properly and underestimated amount of guarantee sought. All other franchise bids also suspended while these are examined for similar errors"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19809717

The bidding process for the West Coast Main Line rail franchise is to be re-run after the government admitted getting its figures seriously wrong.

The contract to run services on the line - one of Britain's busiest - was awarded to FirstGroup in August.

That decision was challenged in the courts by Virgin Trains, which lost out.

Now civil servants have found significant mistakes in the way they calculated the risks for each bid.

***

Ministers have scrapped the decision to award the West Coast Main Line rail franchise to FirstGroup saying the bidding process was flawed.

The contract - awarded in August - was immediately challenged in the courts by Virgin Trains, which lost out.

Ministers say there were "significant technical flaws" in the way the risks for each bid were calculated and say the bidding process must be rerun.

They have also ordered two independent reviews into what happened.

One will examine how the West Coast franchise competition went wrong, and what lessons can be learned.

'Deeply regrettable'

The other review will look into the wider Department for Transport rail franchise programme.

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin described the mistakes made by his department as "deeply regrettable and completely unacceptable".

He said: "A detailed examination by my officials into what happened has revealed these flaws, and means it is no longer acceptable to award a new franchise on the basis of the competition that was held.

"West Coast passengers can rest assured that while we seek urgently to resolve the future arrangements the trains that run now will continue to run with the same drivers, the same staff and timetables as planned."

FirstGroup was due to take over train services on the line - one of Britain's busiest - in December.

The Department for Transport said because of the decision to rerun the bidding process it would no longer be contesting the judicial review launched by Virgin Trains in the High Court.

And it said an announcement would be made about the suspension of staff while the investigation into the mistakes is carried out.

[Valore]

Really inspires confidence. Good luck to the poor sods on the trains.

At least they admitted now rather than down the road after they were a few tens of millions of pounds in the red.

[Liveforthereds67]

The whole saga of the rail francise system has now been shown to be flawed and it's time the whole system was brought back under the control of one body but not DfT. The rail system and the buses should be run as a public system by the public for the the public. Far too much money has been wasted by these companys, they make large profts off the back of the public purse, take that away and none of these companys would come near, they would not make a profit so there would be nothing in it for them. Public transport should be run at an not for profit and all profit that is made should be put back into keeping the system safe and cheap to run.

[gazzalfc]

Thats a huge climb down by the government

Department for Transport - The process was fair

Richard Branson - No its not. We're taking you to court

Department for Transport - Oh wait. It wasn't. We'll start the process again.

[Valore]

Thats a huge climb down by the government

Department for Transport - The process was fair

Richard Branson - No its not. We're taking you to court

Department for Transport - Oh wait. It wasn't. We'll start the process again.

Ah so they recanted because they were threatened with litigation. Not so surprising now.

[Anthony]

One of the interesting initial comments on the BBC overnight was that it was not being suggested that First Group had got their figures wrong but rather the Government's calculation of the Guarantee that they should charge. If that were the basis then either

- The Government could just go back and negotiate a higher Guarantee with First

- The Government put the wrong calculation in the Tender Document

Either way First's Lawyers should be all over this if there is "nothing wrong" with their bid.

Mind you, the fact staff are being suspended and the way the Transport Secretary looked on the BBC just now it looks as though there is more to come...

[-Q-]

The process was seemingly fair, but the award went to FG based on unrealistic expectations of passenger numbers in the later years.  You simply can not trust matters of this importance to sheer incompetents in government. I hope they take the same approach to HS2 and cancel that entirely.

[Liveforthereds67]

The process was seemingly fair, but the award went to FG based on unrealistic expectations of passenger numbers in the later years.  You simply can not trust matters of this importance to sheer incompetents in government. I hope they take the same approach to HS2 and cancel that entirely.

HS2 is needed as by 2020 the current network will be close to being overloaded. The problem has been over the past 30 years Goverments from both sides of the house have failed to look forward and see a use for railways, they instead looked to the roads now we are many years behind the rest of Europe on are infesructre that it is going to cost a lot of money. This is because all goverments in the past have failed to see the bigger picture.

[stevedo]

The process was seemingly fair, but the award went to FG based on unrealistic expectations of passenger numbers in the later years.  You simply can not trust matters of this importance to sheer incompetents in government. I hope they take the same approach to HS2 and cancel that entirely.

Not sure "fair" is a word to be used,  more a case of was the process followed? FG must be getting the lawyers on the case.
Interesting Maria Eagles calling for it to post 7th Dec following the East Coast model
It certainly ought to be in [Patrick McLoughlin's] mind that the not-for-private profit, government-owned company that runs the east coast should be considered for running the west coast in the interim whilst he decides what’s going to happen to happen in the future at the end of these reviews he’s conducting 

Chances of Dave and George going for this? 


Nice timing of the announcement as well btw. Coincidence I'm sure.

[GBF]

So now FirstGroup will start a petition and throw a tantrum?

[smig]

The whole saga of the rail francise system has now been shown to be flawed and it's time the whole system was brought back under the control of one body but not DfT. The rail system and the buses should be run as a public system by the public for the the public. Far too much money has been wasted by these companys, they make large profts off the back of the public purse, take that away and none of these companys would come near, they would not make a profit so there would be nothing in it for them. Public transport should be run at an not for profit and all profit that is made should be put back into keeping the system safe and cheap to run.

I'm afraid you're talking far too much sense there. 

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

The whole saga of the rail francise system has now been shown to be flawed and it's time the whole system was brought back under the control of one body but not DfT. The rail system and the buses should be run as a public system by the public for the the public. Far too much money has been wasted by these companys, they make large profts off the back of the public purse, take that away and none of these companys would come near, they would not make a profit so there would be nothing in it for them. Public transport should be run at an not for profit and all profit that is made should be put back into keeping the system safe and cheap to run.

Brilliant.

Except for the fact that no politician will spend money on infrastructural costs that will keep the netweork going 20 years down the line as they are only in office 5 years - result - a massive underfunded crumbling network which is exactly what we've got now.

[Red Beret]

Except for the fact that no politician will spend money on infrastructural costs that will keep the network going 20 years down the line as they are only in office 5 years - result - a massive underfunded crumbling network which is exactly what we've got now.

Which was exactly why it was privatised in the first place.

[sinnermichael]

they were warned after the Potters Barr inquiry, which caused deaths. but all they did was speed up the privatisation.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

The process was seemingly fair, but the award went to FG based on unrealistic expectations of passenger numbers in the later years.  You simply can not trust matters of this importance to sheer incompetents in government. I hope they take the same approach to HS2 and cancel that entirely.

Yeah cancel HS2 so that us in the north get fucked over by the southern bias as per normal. If HS2 was just for the home counties it would get approval and funding and built much quicker. Crossrail seems to be ploughing ahead ok i see...

[RedinExile]

If you earn a high market-share on the free-market by offering a great service at a reasonable cost, you are a bad monopolist and must be punished for being better than your competitors.  If you are given a high-market share by government patronage, you must be providing a wonderful public service.

Travel on trains much?

[-Q-]

Travel on trains much?

Into and around London quite a bit and Virgin, London to Liverpool, every few months for the past 6 years, give or take.  Why?

[scatman]

Yeah cancel HS2 so that us in the north get fucked over by the southern bias as per normal. If HS2 was just for the home counties it would get approval and funding and built much quicker. Crossrail seems to be ploughing ahead ok i see...

See I'm of the thinking that in an economic climate like this, the age old government spending money on infrastructure projects and creating jobs is the way to get out of recession. It has been used time and time again through the ages in economic history across the world.

[stevedo]

Yeah cancel HS2 so that us in the north get fucked over by the southern bias as per normal. If HS2 was just for the home counties it would get approval and funding and built much quicker. Crossrail seems to be ploughing ahead ok i see...

Don't understand how the politicians hold up HS2 as solely a 'northern thing',  the whole idea is surely to spread the fast services going from London further?

It's hard to tell which female cabinet minister is going to be under the most pressure to resign over this.

[-Q-]

Yeah cancel HS2 so that us in the north get fucked over by the southern bias as per normal. If HS2 was just for the home counties it would get approval and funding and built much quicker. Crossrail seems to be ploughing ahead ok i see...

Is it really worth spending billions on to shave 20 minutes, max half an hour, off of a trip from Liverpool to London? http://www.hs2.org.uk/key-facts#jou

There really is no economic case for HS2, the only way they made it look profitable was by fiddling the figures - assuming that every passenger is on £85k and does no work on the train.

It is also not a good deal for the city, as Manchester will benefit at the expense of Liverpool too when (using their time projections) you can get to Manchester 25% quicker.

I really don't understand your Home Counties complaint - HS2 has been approved and as far as I know, it doesn't stop in the Home Countries.

It will be great if you live in the immediate vicinity of one of the few stops, but why should the entire country pay to benefit a very small number of people?

[stevedo]

Is it really worth spending billions on to shave 20 minutes, max half an hour, off of a trip from Liverpool to London? http://www.hs2.org.uk/key-facts#jou

There really is no economic case for HS2, the only way they made it look profitable was by fiddling the figures - assuming that every passenger is on £85k and does no work on the train.

It is also not a good deal for the city, as Manchester will benefit at the expense of Liverpool too when (using their time projections) you can get to Manchester 25% quicker.

I really don't understand your Home Counties complaint - HS2 has been approved and as far as I know, it doesn't stop in the Home Countries.

It will be great if you live in the immediate vicinity of one of the few stops, but why should the entire country pay to benefit a very small number of people?

I'm in agreement with Q on this one.   *shudder.   

If a monetary investment of that magnitude is to be made in the norths infrastructure surely there's more cost effective ways?

[Liveforthereds67]

Is it really worth spending billions on to shave 20 minutes, max half an hour, off of a trip from Liverpool to London? http://www.hs2.org.uk/key-facts#jou

There really is no economic case for HS2, the only way they made it look profitable was by fiddling the figures - assuming that every passenger is on £85k and does no work on the train.

It is also not a good deal for the city, as Manchester will benefit at the expense of Liverpool too when (using their time projections) you can get to Manchester 25% quicker.

It will be great if you live in the immediate vicinity of one of the few stops, but why should the entire country pay to benefit a very small number of people?

Simply put the current network is not fit for the future expantion requirements of a country that needs to move about, by 2020 the network will be near of at breaking point, what HS2 will do is free up the intercity services to their own line and that will give greater fredom for other services to operate on the current system. HS2 will also give a quicker travel time to Europe. My only problems with HS2 is it will not conect up with HS1 which for me it should do but that may change over time and the time scale of build, In some ways this is not a plan for today or for the next 5/10 years but a plan for 20 years and beyond. It's time we stoped looking at the short term and started looking at longer term projects, this is why as a country we are so far behind parts of Europe when it came to are infusrtutre, we have been busy cutting over the last 30/40 years or not putting money into it, unlike Europe who have invested over the same period. Short term thinking brings about short term goals and it ends up costing more in the long term. We need to catch up to the standards in central Euorpe. Even are roads are years behind that of Europe.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Is it really worth spending billions on to shave 20 minutes, max half an hour, off of a trip from Liverpool to London? http://www.hs2.org.uk/key-facts#jou

There really is no economic case for HS2, the only way they made it look profitable was by fiddling the figures - assuming that every passenger is on £85k and does no work on the train.

It is also not a good deal for the city, as Manchester will benefit at the expense of Liverpool too when (using their time projections) you can get to Manchester 25% quicker.

I really don't understand your Home Counties complaint - HS2 has been approved and as far as I know, it doesn't stop in the Home Countries.

It will be great if you live in the immediate vicinity of one of the few stops, but why should the entire country pay to benefit a very small number of people?

Home counties - Crossrail seems to be in part of it to save time cossing London with possible Crossrail 2 to follow plus the billions spent on Thameslink. But why should the North pay for a minority of the country?

And did i mention Liverpool times on it? No, i said the north didn't i but don't let that cloud your judgement.

No economic case, fine then cancel the scheme and when the west coast mainline grinds to a halt, don't worry about it. Its bad now and its not even full yet.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Simply put the current network is not fit for the future expantion requirements of a country that needs to move about, by 2020 the network will be near of at breaking point, what HS2 will do is free up the intercity services to their own line and that will give greater fredom for other services to operate on the current system. HS2 will also give a quicker travel time to Europe. My only problems with HS2 is it will not conect up with HS1 which for me it should do but that may change over time and the time scale of build, In some ways this is not a plan for today or for the next 5/10 years but a plan for 20 years and beyond. It's time we stoped looking at the short term and started looking at longer term projects, this is why as a country we are so far behind parts of Europe when it came to are infusrtutre, we have been busy cutting over the last 30/40 years or not putting money into it, unlike Europe who have invested over the same period. Short term thinking brings about short term goals and it ends up costing more in the long term. We need to catch up to the standards in central Euorpe. Even are roads are years behind that of Europe.

Well put, much better than i could.

[Danthemanaussiered]

Simply put the current network is not fit for the future expantion requirements of a country that needs to move about, by 2020 the network will be near of at breaking point, what HS2 will do is free up the intercity services to their own line and that will give greater fredom for other services to operate on the current system. HS2 will also give a quicker travel time to Europe. My only problems with HS2 is it will not conect up with HS1 which for me it should do but that may change over time and the time scale of build, In some ways this is not a plan for today or for the next 5/10 years but a plan for 20 years and beyond. It's time we stoped looking at the short term and started looking at longer term projects, this is why as a country we are so far behind parts of Europe when it came to are infusrtutre, we have been busy cutting over the last 30/40 years or not putting money into it, unlike Europe who have invested over the same period. Short term thinking brings about short term goals and it ends up costing more in the long term. We need to catch up to the standards in central Euorpe. Even are roads are years behind that of Europe.

Also agree, the cost of upgrading the west coast line over time will be equal to building hs2 without the speed benifits. Hs2 is more than saving 20 minutes on a trip to london. Frustrating that we in england accept such short term policies from our governments

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Also agree, the cost of upgrading the west coast line over time will be equal to building hs2 without the speed benifits. Hs2 is more than saving 20 minutes on a trip to london. Frustrating that we in england accept such short term policies from our governments

Cost £9 billion or more to do that and its still shit. Thats the problem with upgrading poorly rather than just building a brand new line.

[Kez]

Is it really worth spending billions on to shave 20 minutes, max half an hour, off of a trip from Liverpool to London? http://www.hs2.org.uk/key-facts#jou

In my opinion, having gone from the NW to London at least once a month for the last 12 months, yes it's worth it. If I was able to knock 20-30 minutes off my journey time I'd be delighted and I'd pay extra for that if I needed to. It's largely psychological because in reality there isn't much I could do with that extra 20-30 minutes but right now it's the fact that my journey is 2hr+ that annoys me. If it was under the 2hr barrier it wouldn't seem like such a chore.

[LiamG]

Simply put the current network is not fit for the future expantion requirements of a country that needs to move about, by 2020 the network will be near of at breaking point, what HS2 will do is free up the intercity services to their own line and that will give greater fredom for other services to operate on the current system. HS2 will also give a quicker travel time to Europe. My only problems with HS2 is it will not conect up with HS1 which for me it should do but that may change over time and the time scale of build, In some ways this is not a plan for today or for the next 5/10 years but a plan for 20 years and beyond. It's time we stoped looking at the short term and started looking at longer term projects, this is why as a country we are so far behind parts of Europe when it came to are infusrtutre, we have been busy cutting over the last 30/40 years or not putting money into it, unlike Europe who have invested over the same period. Short term thinking brings about short term goals and it ends up costing more in the long term. We need to catch up to the standards in central Euorpe. Even are roads are years behind that of Europe.

Well said

[vicgill]

Absolutely fucking pathetic that it takes fucking no time at all for the 100,000 signatures on this (I haven't signed it, but would be pleased if Virgin retained the license), yet it took a real hard effort for us to get the signatures we needed for the Hillsborough issues.  And its not like more people are affected by the (relatively, compared to the fight for Justice) trivial issue of the train company and the contract either, the number of people in this country who consider themselves to be Liverpool fans.... really pisses me off that things like this can galvanise the public in ways that much more deserving causes cannot.  If I started a petition to rename the White Cliffs of Dover 'Mo Farah Rock Formation' it would probably have 50,000 signatures by the time I woke up.

It´s a question of priorities mate, we are guided to wherever they (the elitists) want us to go

[Kez]

They'd get my vote...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20959906

Toy company's West Coast rail bid turned down by DfT

A wooden toy company which offered to take over the West Coast rail franchise has been turned down by the government due to the "safety" of its trains.

In a letter written by Bigjigs to the Department for Transport (DfT), the company offered a "free" rail service run on "enjoyment".

The company received a humorous reply from the DfT saying its wooden coaches were unlikely to meet safety standards.

In October the DfT was criticised for miscalculating the franchise's cost.

It had awarded the contract to FirstGroup, but reversed its decision following a legal challenge by Virgin Trains.

George Poole, from Bigjigs, which is based in Folkestone, said this spurred him on to write the letter to the Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin.

His private secretary, Mark Reach, responded by thanking him for his letter and one of the wooden trains which was sent with it.

Mr Poole said: "As geeky as it sounds it was a delight that they took the time to respond to us, especially as our letter isn't the most serious you would get.

"It shows the bureaucrats do have a sense of humour and are human after all."

In his response Mr Reach said: "While perfect for the in-home market, wooden carriages are unlikely to meet modern crashworthiness standards for operation on the heavy rail network."

He added that the proportions of the train would need to be changed, but the "vibrant livery" would brighten up the railway.

Mr Poole said he is considering resubmitting his proposal.

"I tweeted Richard Branson and Virgin Trains saying hopefully they will appreciate the healthy competition," he added.

"Virgin responded asking whether I'd be interested making a Pendolino prototype."

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Read that earlier. At least they got a reply

[Kez]

Read that earlier. At least they got a reply

Well they did send the nice Civil Servant a toy train with their letter! I think that's actually classed as bribery though...