Topic: Virgin Trains loses West Coast Mainline - ***3/10/12 Tender to be re-run!***

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

You don't know that FirstGroup are paying billions to the government to get this franchise?

Cos they bid to lose money? Yeah ok.

[-Q-]

For long-distance travel the train is most certainly the best option.  As an example, from my home to that there London (according to google maps) is 2hr 43min by public transport and I've very rarely failed to grab a £36 ticket.  The same journey by car takes 3hrs 44 mins and is 219 miles.  Running cost for a typical medium-sized car (the true cost, not just fuel) is around 40 pence per mile (AA) so that's £87.60.  You'd have to be pretty unlucky to be stuck with a £175 return ticket price.

However, if you factor in additional passengers, the car is much cheaper.  You can drive the family for the same price (pretty much) as a single person, whereas you've got to pay for several tickets.

As for convenience, what's more convenient than popping up at Euston after a snooze for a couple of hours and jumping on the tube to wherever you want to be?  Compared to the M53/M56/M6/M1 and central London traffic and congestion charge!

I love the Virgin train service - I think it is great that I can get to Liverpool quickly and easily and relatively cheaply with a reasonable service.

[Lee J]

If you're travelling just from Lime Street to Euston then I agree. Its a pretty good service to be honest and I've used it plenty before, but I still think its expensive. An off peak return on the day is about £75. Of course most people aren't just going from Lime St to Euston. Once you've factored in the time and money it takes to travel from home to Limey and then from Euston to wherever you're going there's very little in it. Of course if there's two or more of you there's no doubt car is cheaper.

I live in Birkenhead and that journey time I quoted included walking to Birkenhead Central, getting the train into Lime Street, waiting for the London service and then on to London.  I've managed the journey at anything from £7 one way to £70-odd, if I had a family, of course the car would come in both more convenient and cheaper. 

As a business traveller the route is fantastic, if First fuck that up, then they can kiss their projections goodbye and they'll be handing the franchise back.  Ah wait, didn't the minister say that the previous franchise problems (East Coast Line?) where First walked away, were down the the Labour Govt (here we go again) allowing a 'walk away' clause?  I assume, therefore, there is no such clause in this new franchise, hoorah, we are saved.

Someone mentioned an airline service to London?  I'm afraid that has been tried and it failed (from Liverpool I think it was VLM?).

[timiano]

I'm afraid that has been tried and it failed (from Liverpool I think it was VLM?).

Yup, I used to take that Fokker 50 quite often. If the rail fairs start going up, we might see a resurgence. I use the West Coast line almost every week, and sometimes twice a week on business, sometimes standard, sometimes first (you can get cheaper 1st than STD sometimes on ADV tickets).

It's been a great servant to me for about 7 years now, and even though Virgin are, and have never been perfect, they've pretty much transformed the rail system in this country. So I'm naturally worried what impact FirstGroup are going to have on my business trips. Who knows, they could do better, but I'm very pessimistic at the moment.

[Lee J]

I used VLM just the once and was in the offices of the ODA in Canary Warf by 8:20am without getting up at stupid o'clock.  London City Airport is vey handy 

[Alan_X]

Someone mentioned an airline service to London?  I'm afraid that has been tried and it failed (from Liverpool I think it was VLM?).

I used VLM one a week when I was doing a project in Speke. Was very quick but the plane's were Fokkers...

[Niru Red4ever]

Travelled Virgin last year on some BritRail pass (allowed me any 3 days of travel for some £100-£120, presumably available to foreigners). Quite liked the service, though was quite confused by the overall railway system; with multiple operators and all. Have travelled a bit in Germany and Switzerland and its simple over there (though somehow the Deutsche Bahn I travel is always late).

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

I live in Birkenhead and that journey time I quoted included walking to Birkenhead Central, getting the train into Lime Street, waiting for the London service and then on to London.  I've managed the journey at anything from £7 one way to £70-odd, if I had a family, of course the car would come in both more convenient and cheaper. 

As a business traveller the route is fantastic, if First fuck that up, then they can kiss their projections goodbye and they'll be handing the franchise back.  Ah wait, didn't the minister say that the previous franchise problems (East Coast Line?) where First walked away, were down the the Labour Govt (here we go again) allowing a 'walk away' clause?  I assume, therefore, there is no such clause in this new franchise, hoorah, we are saved.

Someone mentioned an airline service to London?  I'm afraid that has been tried and it failed (from Liverpool I think it was VLM?).

It was National Express who walked away paying approx 30m for the East Coast.

Think First have a 250m penalty clause or so on this one.

[reniformis]

It was National Express who walked away paying approx 30m for the East Coast.

Think First have a 250m penalty clause or so on this one.

Well, that just makes them more likely to file for bankruptcy if it goes wrong and yet again, the taxpayers/public/state end up footing the bill for private sector gambling. I'm sick of it, to be honest. Make the owners/directors/shareholders of these private companies personally liable for any failure and losses and let's see how brave they are with their free market entrepreneurial spirit. My guess is not very, on the basis that they're all shithouse vultures and parasites. *waits for Q to turn up and tell us how this is great for the country*

[TSC]

The rail network is not privatised - given that they have been granted this franchise by the government, I would have thought that would be self-evident?

What planet are you on?  So the network is (still) nationalised?  Because if it's not privatised then it's nationalised?  Stop embarrassing yourself.  At least take a stand and defend privatisation.  But don't deny it's anything but privatised. 

Unbelievable.

[TSC]

On the day fare from Liverpool to London return, and not necessarily 'on the day' but even if you book day or two before, is £138.50 one way.  I regularly pay £277 return.  Doesn't 'financially' bother me, as I claim it back from work.  But seriously, how can they justify £277 return for a 2 hour journey each way.

To put it into context, I also regularly travel to Newcastle with work, which takes 50% more time, and therefore 50% more time re demand on services etc.  It costs £77.90 standard return.

Why does a journey to London which takes 55% of the time than it takes to get to Newcastle from Liverpool command a fare 400% higher? 

Some may label that profiteering.  And it would be interesting to hear a defence against such an accusation.

[Mouth]

The rail network is not privatised - given that they have been granted this franchise by the government, I would have thought that would be self-evident?

Funny, because Network Rail Ltd seem to think they own and run it...

[redgriffin73]

E-petition.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/37180

[gazzalfc]

Virgin (or someone else) will have get a very cheap internal flight service very soon and this will trains go bust

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19324962

Virgin Atlantic is to begin a short-haul service between London Heathrow and Manchester from next March.

The airline says its first foray into the UK domestic market will provide competition for British Airways.

It will also provide a regional link for passengers using its long-haul services from Heathrow, it says.

Virgin denied the move was a response to Virgin Rail being told it was losing the West Coast Mainline franchise that covers London to Manchester.

[redbyrdz]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19324962

Virgin Atlantic is to begin a short-haul service between London Heathrow and Manchester from next March.

The airline says its first foray into the UK domestic market will provide competition for British Airways.

It will also provide a regional link for passengers using its long-haul services from Heathrow, it says.

Virgin denied the move was a response to Virgin Rail being told it was losing the West Coast Mainline franchise that covers London to Manchester.

Don't get it. Trains are about 2 hours, and train stations are usually fairly easy to get to. Even if a flight is only 30 minutes (no idea), you'll spend time in security checks and time getting to/from the airport - probably another hour at least. Plus the major cost for the airline is the fees they pay for using the airport (and taxes), so there's a limit in how low they can get with their prices (probably around £15 per flight). Can't see them being able to compete with the prices and times of trains really - or the frequency/convinience. And environmentally it's a shit move as well, obviously. The only use is for people getting connecting flights from Heathrow or Manchester.

[GBF]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19324962

Virgin Atlantic is to begin a short-haul service between London Heathrow and Manchester from next March.

The airline says its first foray into the UK domestic market will provide competition for British Airways.

It will also provide a regional link for passengers using its long-haul services from Heathrow, it says.

Virgin denied the move was a response to Virgin Rail being told it was losing the West Coast Mainline franchise that covers London to Manchester.

I heard that this morning.  I think Branson uses RAWK and Im going to ask him for a percentage for my idea (ill buy everyone a pint if it is in millions)  

[And Could He Play]

boss from Branson.

a right "fuck you"

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

He's pissed off with BA, even more so they've taken over BMI to use their slots. BA and BMI fly from Manc to Heathrow, so definitely a two fingered salute at BA. Fuck all to do with the trains really.

[loveisreal]

Virgin themselves totally failed to deliver on the plan that they promised on their franchise bid they won in 1997, meaning that the DFT had to pay out huge bailouts and the planned upgrade of the GWML, Which Virgin had pledged to part-fund and was downgraded from 140mph to 125mph.  Odd that he's now so indignant with the belief that First Group's promises are undeliverable.

[jamie_c]

On the day fare from Liverpool to London return, and not necessarily 'on the day' but even if you book day or two before, is £138.50 one way.  I regularly pay £277 return.  Doesn't 'financially' bother me, as I claim it back from work.  But seriously, how can they justify £277 return for a 2 hour journey each way.

To put it into context, I also regularly travel to Newcastle with work, which takes 50% more time, and therefore 50% more time re demand on services etc.  It costs £77.90 standard return.

Why does a journey to London which takes 55% of the time than it takes to get to Newcastle from Liverpool command a fare 400% higher? 

Some may label that profiteering.  And it would be interesting to hear a defence against such an accusation.

It's supply and demand and that's life.  Those high fares at peak time are part of the reason that they are able to offer cheap fares at other times.

In reality we all have a choice, there is always another way of travelling

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Virgin themselves totally failed to deliver on the plan that they promised on their franchise bid they won in 1997, meaning that the DFT had to pay out huge bailouts and the planned upgrade of the GWML, Which Virgin had pledged to part-fund and was downgraded from 140mph to 125mph.  Odd that he's now so indignant with the belief that First Group's promises are undeliverable.

Really? Thought the government decided that they wouldn't pay to upgrade as originally discussed on franchise and because of that had to pay for failing to deliver what had been promised?

Or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Main_Line

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmtran/782/78206.htm

PUG1 was the original scheme but Virgin and Railtrack arranged PUG2 to enable 140mph, which Railtrack failed to deliver hence the payout as the business plan for Virgin would have paid a higher premium over time but that was ruined by Railtrack failing with PUG2.

So Virgin didn't fail on anything, Railtrack did.

[jamie_c]

Virgin themselves totally failed to deliver on the plan that they promised on their franchise bid they won in 1997, meaning that the DFT had to pay out huge bailouts and the planned upgrade of the GWML, Which Virgin had pledged to part-fund and was downgraded from 140mph to 125mph.  Odd that he's now so indignant with the belief that First Group's promises are undeliverable.

Good point, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert but people just seem to be blindly agreeing with everything he says.  He does have a bit of a vested interest here and is not exactly impartial.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Good point, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert but people just seem to be blindly agreeing with everything he says.  He does have a bit of a vested interest here and is not exactly impartial.

But the point he made is incorrect. I googled it (remembered it from the past) and it was Railtrack not Virgin who failed.

[jamie_c]

But the point he made is incorrect. I googled it (remembered it from the past) and it was Railtrack not Virgin who failed.

Fair enough but my main point still stands. He's not an impartial industry expert.  He's the guy who has just lost and could possibly have an agenda.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

The reasons for the shortfall were a combination of costs spiralling and Virgin failing to generate the revenue they had promised in their franchise agreement, which they got nowhere near delivering - if you can find their franchise agreement, have a look through it.  By the looks of your google search the Transport Select Committee seem to have concluded that the majority of the blame for that particular project falling through was the infrastructure owners - but bear in mind, this would have been a convenient philosophy given that the labour govt were kicking dying relics of Railtrack, who were the hugely unpopular remnant of the last conservative government and would soon be replaced by Network Rail.

I believe that they would have failed to deliver what they had promised to pay to the DfT under PUG2 (Passenger Upgrade 2) due to the fact Railtrack decided instead of costing a few billion it ended up costing about 9 billion without the additional in cab signaling to allow a 140mph railway, hence railtrack failed to deliver what had been agreed separately after the franchise ( i think) which led to them receiving compensation as their business plan had been shot out of the water by Railtracks failure to upgrade as agreed under PUG2.

PUG1 was the original agreement which only meant running to 125mph. Virgin and Railtrack agreed to PUG2 after this.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Whoever you blame for the WCML upgrade fuck-up, Virgin got nowhere near the revenue it had promised in its franchise agreement of 1997 and as such Branson's claims that First Group are making undeliverable promises is a bit rich.  The media coverage of their recent franchise loss is testimony to their PR success though, doubt there'll be epititions if First Group lose the GWR franchise.

I'm not blaming anyone?

Stating facts that Railtrack failed to deliver the PUG2 hence the compensation payments. If PUG2 had been delivered as agreed, we'd have a 140mph railway and Virgin would have paid a lot more tp the DfT than they did.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

But remember PUG1 was what was agreed on the original franchise agreement, Virgin decided they wanted more which Railtrack agreed.

Mind, some rumours that 135mph is capable on parts of the infrastructure (main part may be the Trent Valley quadruple track as that mainly built from scratch) but Network Rail haven't replied to say yay or nay.

Mind all will go by the wayside if HS2 ever goes ahead as will become commuter / freight / semi fasts, rather than the fasts as now.

[Armchair expert]

Branson backed the Tories and their cuts at the last election...so don't moan when they cut your service.
It's called Karma, Dick !

[That Kennedy moment]

Should just be nationalised.

Virgin are shit, good riddance. Their fares are a rip-off month in and month out.

But they routinely take the piss even when you've got a ticket. I travelled back from the Lakes to London a couple of years ago, and the train arrived short of carriages. American tourists getting on at Manchester had no option but to stand all the way to London. And the narrow carriages, and full luggage racks, meant they were virtually standing astride their cases all the way down the aisle. Welcome to England.

Branson's real brilliance lies in his PR. I'd also like to see someone take a closer look at his tax status too.

As for the nationalisation argument… the government has an official historian of privatisation. He told me that the privatised railway companies receive a subsidy from the taxpayer that is anything between 200-400 per cent higher than British Rail was receiving in the 1980s and 1990s. This argument trotted out by the train operators - that they have to levy above-inflation price increases because their subsidy isn't enough – is absolute bullshit.

[TSC]

It's supply and demand and that's life.  Those high fares at peak time are part of the reason that they are able to offer cheap fares at other times.

In reality we all have a choice, there is always another way of travelling

Some of us don't if you have to get from Liverpool to London for a last minute meeting.  Hardly gonna be feasible to jump on mega bus and get there the next day or something.  As I mentioned, I claim it back anyway. 

Someone's 'supply and demand' is anothers rip off.  I know which one I'd choose if it was coming out of my pocket.  £277 return?  May as well make it a grand or something.  It's just some arbitary high figure.

[RedinExile]

On the day fare from Liverpool to London return, and not necessarily 'on the day' but even if you book day or two before, is £138.50 one way.  I regularly pay £277 return.  Doesn't 'financially' bother me, as I claim it back from work.  But seriously, how can they justify £277 return for a 2 hour journey each way.

To put it into context, I also regularly travel to Newcastle with work, which takes 50% more time, and therefore 50% more time re demand on services etc.  It costs £77.90 standard return.

Why does a journey to London which takes 55% of the time than it takes to get to Newcastle from Liverpool command a fare 400% higher? 

Some may label that profiteering.  And it would be interesting to hear a defence against such an accusation.

Don't want to intrude, but what you said there sounds pretty (ab)normal, yet Lee J seemed to have some incredible prices in the bag there??

[scatman]

Virgin are shit, good riddance. Their fares are a rip-off month in and month out.

But they routinely take the piss even when you've got a ticket. I travelled back from the Lakes to London a couple of years ago, and the train arrived short of carriages. American tourists getting on at Manchester had no option but to stand all the way to London. And the narrow carriages, and full luggage racks, meant they were virtually standing astride their cases all the way down the aisle. Welcome to England.

Branson's real brilliance lies in his PR. I'd also like to see someone take a closer look at his tax status too.

As for the nationalisation argument… the government has an official historian of privatisation. He told me that the privatised railway companies receive a subsidy from the taxpayer that is anything between 200-400 per cent higher than British Rail was receiving in the 1980s and 1990s. This argument trotted out by the train operators - that they have to levy above-inflation price increases because their subsidy isn't enough – is absolute bullshit.

i love how you use an example from 2 years back to illustrate your 'routinely' point. I've never had a problem with them and ive used virgin for over 11 years manchester to london, First on the other hand...

[gazzalfc]

Never had any problems with Virgin

Reserved seating

Plug sockets next to seats so I can charge my phone/laptop

Pretty decent 1st class service with good lounges at stations.

clean trains 

comfortable seating.

Quick trains that in all the years that I used them have only been cancelled once (and that was when the country shut down because of the snow and even then the train got as far as Crewe and Virgin still managed to get us all onto a London Midland train to Lime street).

The main problems people have with them are the overpriced tickets that are bought on the last minute or people not using the correct ticket on the train and getting pulled up.

[That Kennedy moment]

i love how you use an example from 2 years back to illustrate your 'routinely' point. I've never had a problem with them and ive used virgin for over 11 years manchester to london, First on the other hand...

Just the worst example. You want me to list all of em?

[scatman]

Just the worst example. You want me to list all of em?

why not?

[Butcher Knife Roberto]

The main problems people have with them are the overpriced tickets that are bought on the last minute or people not using the correct ticket on the train and getting pulled up.

If there was a balance struck with the ticket charges then I don't think half of these train operators would get into financial difficulties. I'm all for rewarding people booking in advance but the big problem is where train operators try to justify frankly disgusting 'standard' prices. It's almost as bad as fucking Ryanair and their 1p flights. I'd prefer it if they got rid of the ultra cheap fares and made a standard price, with a reducing discount based upon how far in advance you book. But enough of these £150 on-the-day single fares, it's obscene.

As for this decision, well, as an unfortunate regular on the First Scotrail service and having recently experienced the Transpennine Express I can vouch for a hideous future for the west coast mainline. First as a whole are a fucking joke - for a laugh I dare anyone to use their bus service in central Scotland, the buses are literally falling to pieces, they stink and are fucking uncomfortable (total lack of suspension on them, have fun at the chiropractor afterwards). It's as if they get the shittest vehicles, patch them up and bleed the passengers of their money, while investing fuck all back into the infrastructure. This whole deal stinks and Branson knows it. Having built up a competitive, fair and pretty decent service it seems a shame to put all that good work to waste. Another one of George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford's fantastic bits of forward thinking with the country in mind. It's as if they are doing their best to fuck the country up before they are booted out at the next election. A total disgrace.

[kellan]

An e-petition urging the government to reconsider changing the operator of the West Coast Mainline rail service has attracted more than 100,000 signatures.

The petition, on the Downing Street website, now has enough support to trigger a debate in Parliament.

The Labour MP in charge of the Commons transport committee has written to ministers asking them to postpone signing the contract for the service. bbc

[TSC]

An e-petition urging the government to reconsider changing the operator of the West Coast Mainline rail service has attracted more than 100,000 signatures.

The petition, on the Downing Street website, now has enough support to trigger a debate in Parliament.

The Labour MP in charge of the Commons transport committee has written to ministers asking them to postpone signing the contract for the service. bbc

Tories wont give a toss about that.  Nothing will be changed.  Virgin and west coast franchise is not the problem.  It's merely one element of a bigger problem re rail transport in particular.  I was on a transpennine express train few weeks ago and some weird announcement was made that all tickets were valid except any which was purchased on behalf of cross country services.  Apparently both companies are at loggerheads.  Cue passengers getting the grilling and asked to purchase a completely new ticket simply because they'd gone for the cheapest after buying at a ticket machine.  It's madness.  It would appear now that before you buy a ticket you need to analyse which companies are willing to work together.

[RedRedTom]

Absolutely fucking pathetic that it takes fucking no time at all for the 100,000 signatures on this (I haven't signed it, but would be pleased if Virgin retained the license), yet it took a real hard effort for us to get the signatures we needed for the Hillsborough issues.  And its not like more people are affected by the (relatively, compared to the fight for Justice) trivial issue of the train company and the contract either, the number of people in this country who consider themselves to be Liverpool fans.... really pisses me off that things like this can galvanise the public in ways that much more deserving causes cannot.  If I started a petition to rename the White Cliffs of Dover 'Mo Farah Rock Formation' it would probably have 50,000 signatures by the time I woke up.

[Red Beret]

Virgin have launched court action, according to the Beeb.