Topic: Our Fundamental Problem

[Blade]

The same point keeps getting made over and over by different people.

We know Andy is talented. We know he has some excellent attributes. We know he will develop.

The key point here is will he develop into the type of striker that will suit Liverpool and how Kenny wants to play football. Andy is not suddenly going to develop into a player who likes neat one touch pass and move football. THIS IS 'PLAN A' FOR KENNY. Getting plan A up and firing is what is important right now. Not the fact that we're getting better results with Andy!

This might sound like a stupid idea, but I am willing to let Kenny decide on that one. I have already stated my opinion.

[Johnny Foreigner]

always forget the name of the other one. the little dutchie. still useless though

[Fat Scouser]

I think this thread is lacking videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oai3eZEctQ

[Saul Goodman]

This might sound like a stupid idea, but I am willing to let Kenny decide on that one. I have already stated my opinion.

Well the fact he has spent most of the season with his arse on the bench I think speak volumes for what Kenny thinks. You think Kenny doesn't see the win and Suarez scoring data ?

[lachesis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oai3eZEctQ

[Rohit]

Yeah because a team who does not score goals will get places in football?

You keep changing your argument to suit yourself. That's fine, please tell me what makes Carroll fit into our system (if there is a system) of play?

Right now he doesn't matter. If a striker plays upfront and offers practically no goal threat that has to be an issue right? Carroll is very rarely in the box and if he is, he is slow to react to the play to get the goals we need. There is practically no link up play between luis and andy and I'm sure kenny knows this and its why he rarely plays the both of them together. The stat of us winning when he plays is misleading considering gerrard has played alot more in those games and in more advance positions aswell lucas was fit for some of those games aswell if I'm not mistaken.

[Blade]

Well the fact he has spent most of the season with his arse on the bench I think speak volumes for what Kenny thinks. You think Kenny doesn't see the win and Suarez scoring data ?

We have played 41 competitive games so far this season. Andy Carroll has started 22 of them, has came on as a sub in 16, and have missed 3 due to injury. Try with another fact, since that one is not working for you.

[drpepe]

You have just argued that Andy doesn't contribute to Suarez' goals, yet now you say that we don't score goals. Make up your mind.

our top goals scorer has 7 goals and as a team we are scoring at a rate of 1.2 per game. 11 other teams in the division have at least as many goals as we do.

We don't score (enough) goals.

[Brentieke]

I am wumimg because I disagree with your opinion? Interesting. By the way, the game of football has always been and always will be about the team success. That is why Djimi Traore has more Champions League medals than Chelsea, Arsenal and Man City put together. If you can't understand that, any further discussion is pointless.

No you're wumming because in my initial post I clearly showed Suarez has had a shitload of time and a shitoad of space without Andy Carroll in the team and has had, alot of times, some very good chances.

The only reason he hasnt scored more goals without Carroll is because he's missed very presentable chances.

The mere presence of Andy Carroll on the pitch doesnt make Suarez's shots creep inside the posts instead of hitting them.

You decided to completely ignore this argument and the set of examples I showed you and just reverted to the stat. Which I showed has no meaning what so ever.

[helmboy_nige]

Good thread and great OP.  I would certainly argue that our shape is affected by Carroll (not his fault).  He might be able to fit into that shape and/or we might be able to adapt to his being in the team.  We haven't yet managed to achieve this.

I guess there are two schools of thought for me.

- Carroll is one piece in the puzzle who can add an extra dimension.  The intention is to supplement his skills with a third striker so we have multiple options after the summer involving Carroll, Suarez and x.  x being a player that is more suited to 433 and Carroll being someone who is more suited to a direct attack.
- Carroll was bought in a panic with the hope that he could fit into a 433.  If that isn't going to happen then he may be moved along.

It may be that we will move him on in the summer, but I still think there is a strong case that we will look to add a further striker to complement Suarez and keep Carroll so we have multiple options.

I know he's been an LFC player for more than a year, but I don't think we've really seen Suarez and Carroll alongside each other enough to truly see if 433 can't work.  It isn't working with Carroll currently, but I still think there needs to be more time given to see if it can.

[Rohit]

No you're wumming because in my initial post I clearly showed Suarez has had a shitload of time and a shitoad of space without Andy Carroll in the team and has had, alot of times, some very good chances.

The only reason he hasnt scored more goals without Carroll is because he's missed very presentable chances.

The mere presence of Andy Carroll on the pitch doesnt make Suarez's shots creep inside the posts instead of hitting them.

You decided to completely ignore this argument and the set of examples I showed you and just reverted to the stat. Which I showed has no meaning what so ever.

Totally agree mate, its the same rubbish arguement the media would use to include heskey in the world cup squad. Apparently created space for rooney which was bollocks as having a striker upfront that offers little goal threat is asking of for problems.

[Crackerjack Sam]

the management needs to decide what formation to play

then buy players that suit the formation

have a look at teams that also play 4-3-3

this.

we need players that are capable of creating in the positions they're in. more than anything, I'd like wingers for next season. If we don't get anyone who resembles or is capable of playing on the flanks. we're screwed for another season. inventive, pace merchants please kenny and damien. that's if either of you are still here. not having a go, but this is football and anything can happen.

[Saul Goodman]

We have played 41 competitive games so far this season. Andy Carroll has started 22 of them, has came on as a sub in 16, and have missed 3 due to injury. Try with another fact, since that one is not working for you.

I am done because you become pedantic and silly. The failure on your part to even acknowledge the other persons point of view makes it a pointless exercise discussing things. Even when we had very few options during the Suarez suspension Kenny was at pains to play him.

Take the cotton wool out of your ears. I have made the point as has Kenny that we are working with Andy to try and turn him into the striker that we need. He isn't at that level yet so he doesn't play.

The point of taking the view of we win more games with him in the side is shortsighted.

Kenny has an idea of how he would like to play the game which at this moment in time clearly favours without Carroll. Whether he can mould Carroll enough to suit how he wants to play remains to be seen.

[Blade]

I am done because you become pedantic and silly.

No, I am only asking you for a correct use of the word "fact".

Well the fact he has spent most of the season with his arse on the bench I think speak volumes for what Kenny thinks. You think Kenny doesn't see the win and Suarez scoring data ?

When you try to present something as a "fact", better be prepared to back that fact with numbers. Otherwise, you will look silly. And this is a friendly advice. I have no desire to start an argument. Lets leave it here.

[Fat Scouser]

Right now he doesn't matter. If a striker plays upfront and offers practically no goal threat that has to be an issue right? Carroll is very rarely in the box and if he is, he is slow to react to the play to get the goals we need. There is practically no link up play between luis and andy and I'm sure kenny knows this and its why he rarely plays the both of them together. The stat of us winning when he plays is misleading considering gerrard has played alot more in those games and in more advance positions aswell lucas was fit for some of those games aswell if I'm not mistaken.

But that's the basis of the argument for why he can still work. I know injuries will happen every season. But, in my opinion, get Lucas back in the middle doing the dirty work, play Gerrard and Suarez just behind Carroll and we could be in business. I know it's been frustrating this season, hopes constantly raised and dashed but we really haven't had enough time to judge how that formation could work.
Gerrard, sadly, isn't the player he was. I know the Stevie lovers will jump all over that as my dislike of the lad making me biased. But a blind man on a fast horse can see it. The lad isn't going to be able to boss the middle of the park and make them gut busting runs. If we keep playing him there, he'll end up injured more than not. But he can still pull that magic out the hat. He can have a great end to his career, if he just starts to realise he needs to adjust his game a bit.

[macca888]

There's no way we can just unload players to that degree. Anyone calling for such is an idiot with no idea of how the game works. We give Kenny as much dough as possible. We tweak were it's most essential. It's like the plate balancing act some mentioned before. That's why it takes time and patience. You get to the balanced squad, then it's just the occasional tweek in the summer. We can't keep going through massive upheavel. This what we've seen in the last few years is the result.

The little bit of tweaking I'd like to see done is sell Downing, Henderson, Carroll, Enrique, Spearing, Adam, Lucas, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, cash in on Carragher, Gerrard, Kuyt, Maxi, Pepe and Bellamy while we can still get a couple of bob for the arl bastards, send all the kids out on loan and if a decent offer comes in for Suarez, we'd be daft not to take it. Invest the money in cloning Raheem Sterling over the summer and play nine of him with Robinson and Flanagan as the full backs and we'll win the league for at least the next 12 years. Maybe put Coates on the bench but keep Aurelio for the physios to play with. Job done Fats.

[rafa4eva]

Good op vdm.

Having read through the thread, it has definitely helped me gain another perspective, the concerns with formation, style, use if players and transfers is a manifestation of vision... Or unclear vision...it really is the fundamental issue but also helps at least IMO in discussing how this could be resolved..

I have no answers as I'm thrown by the change in play from end of last season ..... Not what i wanted to see but some valid suggestions from one extreme to another and a lot of middle ground have already been covered..

As fat scouser has already stated, something broke when rafa left.... More down to the shite criticisms which IMO always ignored the poisonous snake pit the back office had become.... But the final straw was when our own turned ... That killed me...idiots screaming for change with no idea how to manage change is nothing new IMO.... But when reasonable posters started to suggest rafa was holding the team back....well depression and resignation sank in...... We lost that fight and right now I have to agree there seems to be a similar vibe to when people started turnin against rafa.... No where near the rhetoric or language or abusive posts ...

However as much as I love rafa... Even I couldnt deny some decisions were strange.... I was happy to debate with if only to gain other perspectives...As long as it was done respectfully .... Some of the posts recently in other threads where I can tell people are taking care in Articulating concerns are met with some outstandingly aggressive posts from the likes of cowtownred and Geoff...

I felt the pain in cowtownreds post regarding concern... But we let the lid off when rafa went and having pops at posters who at least try and articulate concern without the abuse are rare IMO .. Anyway back the point of the post.....

I don't think carrol will be sold.... When u buy someone for that much money you've got to give em time... As much as I don't rate his performances ....still think 4231 or 433 is the way forward and stick one of the those collars from the running man flick with arnie around gerrards neck and double dare him to leave the opponents half .... Him and luis ( let him
Float around in the front 3 ) Should be stapled together....

[Brentieke]

Totally agree mate, its the same rubbish arguement the media would use to include heskey in the world cup squad. Apparently created space for rooney which was bollocks as having a striker upfront that offers little goal threat is asking of for problems.

Exactly.

People will just jump at stats and use them to form an opinion without actually thinking for themselves.

How about this for a stat:

Luis Suarez has scored 16 goals since arriving at LFC in all competitions.

12 of those goals came with Jamie Carragher in the team i.e. 75%

We should thus play Carra more as hoofing the ball out of defence creates space for Suarez to score.

I mean, just look at that stat! Surely there can be no argument!

[Fat Scouser]

The little bit of tweaking I'd like to see done is sell Downing, Henderson, Carroll, Enrique, Spearing, Adam, Lucas, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, cash in on Carragher, Gerrard, Kuyt, Maxi, Pepe and Bellamy while we can still get a couple of bob for the arl bastards, send all the kids out on loan and if a decent offer comes in for Suarez, we'd be daft not to take it. Invest the money in cloning Raheem Sterling over the summer and play nine of him with Robinson and Flanagan as the full backs and we'll win the league for at least the next 12 years. Maybe put Coates on the bench but keep Aurelio for the physios to play with. Job done Fats.

There's a cracking boot sale over near Molde every Easter. If we wrapped Kenny in bubble wrap and put a nice bow on him, we might get a few quid there an all.

[Saul Goodman]

No, I am only asking you for a correct use of the word "fact".

When you try to present something as a "fact", better be prepared to back that fact with numbers. Otherwise, you will look silly. And this is a friendly advice. I have no desire to start an argument. Lets leave it here.

Well if I was to be pedantic like you and show minutes on pitch versus minutes off it this season I wonder but you see that would be silly. Most people reading this thread know Kenny hasn't been eager to play Carroll. Sure haven't you been arguing the exact point he needs to play more. Maybe reply with another fact I am sure that will help the conversation because facts aren't subjective, have a very poor sample size and maybe don't actually mean that much in the context of the overall picture.

[steveeastend]

But that's the basis of the argument for why he can still work. I know injuries will happen every season. But, in my opinion, get Lucas back in the middle doing the dirty work, play Gerrard and Suarez just behind them and we could be in business.

Yes, but this exactly hits the point.

What if Gerrard doesnīt want to play there. What if he still insits on being a box to box midfielder playing in the center of attention as he clearly played there since Rafa left who always was aware that his abilities would serve the team best right behind Torres.

Itīs the same nasty question why Carra converted from being almost benched as a full back under Rafa and suddenly finds himself being a regular in his favourite position not only under Roy, but still under Kenny at the beginning of the season.

And what if we sign these three top players who will obviously will have to come from abroad as in England there simply are not enough to go for and the balance within the squad gets out of hand again.

Will there be player power ruling again just as it happens at Chelsea?

Itīs a topic nobody wants to touch but itīs one of the main issues to solve, the benching of Carra and the position where to Gerrard play best as the most important ones right infront of us.

I donīt wanna be in Kennys shoes here and I honestly donīt know how to handle this issue best.

[Blade]

No you're wumming because in my initial post I clearly showed Suarez has had a shitload of time and a shitoad of space without Andy Carroll in the team and has had, alot of times, some very good chances.

So basically, Suarez has done everything when Andy is not on the pitch, apart from scoring goals. On the other hand, he has scored most of his goals when paired with Andy upfront. Therefore, Andy's presence upfront has no influence on Suarez' efficiency. I love your logic.

[Il Capitano]

The little bit of tweaking I'd like to see done is sell Downing, Henderson, Carroll, Enrique, Spearing, Adam, Lucas, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, cash in on Carragher, Gerrard, Kuyt, Maxi, Pepe and Bellamy while we can still get a couple of bob for the arl bastards, send all the kids out on loan and if a decent offer comes in for Suarez, we'd be daft not to take it. Invest the money in cloning Raheem Sterling over the summer and play nine of him with Robinson and Flanagan as the full backs and we'll win the league for at least the next 12 years. Maybe put Coates on the bench but keep Aurelio for the physios to play with. Job done Fats.

[stevedo]

I think this thread is lacking videos.

The Aquilani thread used up the YouTube quota a long time ago.

The little bit of tweaking I'd like to see done is sell Downing, Henderson, Carroll, Enrique, Spearing, Adam, Lucas, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, cash in on Carragher, Gerrard, Kuyt, Maxi, Pepe and Bellamy while we can still get a couple of bob for the arl bastards, send all the kids out on loan and if a decent offer comes in for Suarez, we'd be daft not to take it. Invest the money in cloning Raheem Sterling over the summer and play nine of him with Robinson and Flanagan as the full backs and we'll win the league for at least the next 12 years. Maybe put Coates on the bench but keep Aurelio for the physios to play with. Job done Fats.

Its time for a reboot.

[Brentieke]

So basically, Suarez has done everything when Andy is not on the pitch, apart from scoring goals. On the other hand, he has scored most of his goals when paired with Andy upfront. Therefore, Andy's presence upfront has no influence on Suarez' efficiency. I love your logic.

My God.

He hasnt scored more goals because his finishing is woefully inconsistent. He's had even more chances, alot of them even better chances, without Carroll in the side as with Carroll in the side.

I gave you a list of a dozen chances Suarez has had, many when 1-1 with the keeper with time and space to shoot. The fact he hasnt scored more is due to himself and nothign else.

Or are you seriously saying the mere sight of Carroll's pony tail makes Luis finish better?

[Eeyore]

The little bit of tweaking I'd like to see done is sell Downing, Henderson, Carroll, Enrique, Spearing, Adam, Lucas, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, cash in on Carragher, Gerrard, Kuyt, Maxi, Pepe and Bellamy while we can still get a couple of bob for the arl bastards, send all the kids out on loan and if a decent offer comes in for Suarez, we'd be daft not to take it. Invest the money in cloning Raheem Sterling over the summer and play nine of him with Robinson and Flanagan as the full backs and we'll win the league for at least the next 12 years. Maybe put Coates on the bench but keep Aurelio for the physios to play with. Job done Fats.

Carry on with logic like that Macca and Sky and Talkshite will be entering a bidding war for your services. Adrian Durham must be shitting himself.

[QC]

We need a striker with pace, who would benefit from Suarez's flick ons.

[Fat Scouser]

No one rated or loved Rafa than me, but it's time to move on now. We have a boss that must be given the time and resources to do the job. I'll never forgive the people that went after Rafa, but there's no point in destroying any decent chat be raging on them at every opportunity.
It's all just a result of the years of civil war. There's no point pretending it's gone. It hasn't And some people, from both sides of the fence, just can't let it all go. I don't need to defend Cowtown or Geoff, but the fact is, if you read their posts, they're both just older lads who know patience and loyalty was brought us success. It will again.Stability is the only thing that works.... incontinence comes to those that wait.

[Blade]

Well if I was to be pedantic like you and show minutes on pitch versus minutes off it this season I wonder but you see that would be silly. Most people reading this thread know Kenny hasn't been eager to play Carroll. Sure haven't you been arguing the exact point he needs to play more. Maybe reply with another fact I am sure that will help the conversation because facts aren't subjective, have a very poor sample size and maybe don't actually mean that much in the context of the overall picture.

Interesting. Then, why has Kenny started him in 54% of our games this season, and introduced him as a sub in another 39%? You claim that Kenny hasn't been eager to play Carroll, and most people in this thread know this, yet he has appeared in 93% of our games this season. Something is not right here.

[Fat Scouser]

Yes, but this exactly hits the point.

What if Gerrard doesnīt want to play there. What if he still insits on being a box to box midfielder playing in the center of attention as he clearly played there since Rafa left who always was aware that his abilities would serve the team best right behind Torres.

Itīs the same nasty question why Carra converted from being almost benched as a full back under Rafa and suddenly finds himself being a regular in his favourite position not only under Roy, but still under Kenny at the beginning of the season.

And what if we sign these three top players who will obviously will have to come from abroad as in England there simply are not enough to go for and the balance within the squad gets out of hand again.

Will there be player power ruling again just as it happens at Chelsea?

Itīs a topic nobody wants to touch but itīs one of the main issues to solve, the benching of Carra and the position where to Gerrard play best as the most important ones right infront of us.

I donīt wanna be in Kennys shoes here and I honestly donīt know how to handle this issue best.

I don't swerve it. I can't see the point in constantly dragging the scabs off it, but I don't duck it. I think there is too much power given to these two players, but there's something that won't let it become a Chelsea type situation... Kenny is a bigger legend than either. He's desperate to succeed. HE won't let any one stand in his way of doing this. He's already benched Carragher when he's had other options. He won't shirk unpleasant jobs when they need to be done.

[Saul Goodman]

Interesting. Then, why has Kenny started him in 54% of our games this season, and introduced him as a sub in another 39%? You claim that Kenny hasn't been eager to play Carroll, and most people in this thread know this, yet he has appeared in 93% of our games this season. Something is not right here.

54% of games for a player who is vital to our win % and Suarez scoring when it's clear Luis does need help 

[Cid]

Carroll needs to go.  Laughable all these stats coming out in his defence.  We scored more goals last season while big Andy was most likely in a pub..shall we send him there every week instead of the pitch?

Carroll, to me, is just another English failure.  These players are shown such reverence for having talent at a young age that they stop trying..I'll be surprised if he ever becomes as good as Peter Crouch..and if we must have that 'other option' I'd rather get what we can for Andy and bring Petey back.  He at least knows his job.

[Eeyore]

Interesting. Then, why has Kenny started him in 54% of our games this season, and introduced him as a sub in another 39%? You claim that Kenny hasn't been eager to play Carroll, and most people in this thread know this, yet he has appeared in 93% of our games this season. Something is not right here.

To be fair we have only got two out and out Strikers and one of them was banned for nine games so whilst initially starting 54% might look good when you look deeper it's not. Again when you look at the 93% of games Carroll has appeared in how many of those sub appearances have been for ten minutes or less.

It's not terminal look at United players like Nani rarely played in their first season but came to the fore when they got to grips with playing for a big Club in the Premiership. I think Carroll's future will largely depend on whether the Coaches think they can knock the rough edges of him and turn him into a genuine Liverpool Striker.

[Fat Scouser]

Carroll needs to go.  Laughable all these stats coming out in his defence.  We scored more goals last season while big Andy was most likely in a pub..shall we send him there every week instead of the pitch?

Carroll, to me, is just another English failure.  These players are shown such reverence for having talent at a young age that they stop trying..I'll be surprised if he ever becomes as good as Peter Crouch..and if we must have that 'other option' I'd rather get what we can for Andy and bring Petey back.  He at least knows his job.

So how much do you suggest we take for Carroll? How muc  do we spend on Crouch? What do we do if Crouch comes back and has another run of games without scoring? Maybe we could go for Roger Hunt? He's available. He wouldn't cost much. He could probably still knock the odd goal in and, with a bit of luck, he might still be happy to earn his old wages.

[Saul Goodman]

How about this ? - FC Magdeberg hadn't scored in 5 games so their fans decided.







They still lost 2-1 mind.

[Eeyore]

Carroll needs to go.  Laughable all these stats coming out in his defence.  We scored more goals last season while big Andy was most likely in a pub..shall we send him there every week instead of the pitch?

Carroll, to me, is just another English failure.  These players are shown such reverence for having talent at a young age that they stop trying..I'll be surprised if he ever becomes as good as Peter Crouch..and if we must have that 'other option' I'd rather get what we can for Andy and bring Petey back.  He at least knows his job.

You could well be right but what have we got to lose by letting the Coaches work with him on the training pitch. I wasn't too happy when we signed him and he has a hell of a lot of flaws but as I have said from the start he is our player now and the time to judge him will be at the end of next season when he has a reasonable amount of time to adjust. We need at least one more Striker whether Carroll stays or goes so why not give him the chance to adjust.

He does some horrendous things but is that a lack of ability or just an abysmal football upbringing under the likes of Kinnear and Allardcyce. There is definitely plenty of potential it's just whether Kenny and the Coaches can unlock it. Either way selling him in the summer or the summer is unlikely to see his value drop by much but if he clicks he might save us a few quid.

I think to see the best of Carroll we need sort out the midfield.

[Blade]

To be fair we have only got two out and out Strikers and one of them was banned for nine games so whilst initially starting 54% might look good when you look deeper it's not. Again when you look at the 93% of games Carroll has appeared in how many of those sub appearances have been for ten minutes or less.

He has played for 1-10 minutes in 7 of his substitute appearances, 10-20 minutes in 3 of his substitute appearances, 20-30 minutes in 2 of his substitute appearances, and more than 30 minutes in 4 of his substitute appearances.

[Fromola]

The problem is we've got a squad of players completely unsuitable for this 4-4-2 anachronistic nonsense.

Gerrard, Adam, Kuyt, Maxi, Shelvey and Suarez are all attacking-midfielders/forwards not cut out for 4-4-2. They should all be in the 3 of a 4-2-3-1 played behind a striker. The only attacking players in the whole club who can play 4-4-2 are Downing and Carroll. Instead we've got Gerrard and Adam centre mid all the time when neither can defend, hold position or track runners. Maxi and Shelvey unable to get a game. Suarez played up front rather than off a striker. Kuyt up front, or wide right, rather than more between the lines.

Why has this shift from the 4-2-3-1 occured? And where has this English-is-best nonsense reared its ugly head from? Spain won the World Cup in 2010 whilst England were comprehensively embarrassed on the world stage yet again. So what do we do that summer? Have every Spanish player on a list to be sold because we need to be more English. Sack all the Spanish coaches and employ Englich ones because we need to be more English. Sign English players because we need to be more English. Change Reina into an English goalkeeper because we need to be more English. Go back to 4-4-2 with Gerrard centre mid because we need to be more English.

Kenny changed this philosophy when he took over from Hodgson and now this season he's given in again. Why?

[Blade]

I think to see the best of Carroll we need sort out the midfield.

Most definitely. Without a proper midfield, we can never get the best out of our strikers.

[Brentieke]

I think to see the best of Carroll we need sort out the midfield.

Or play Carragher more. A whopping 66.6% of Carroll's goals for Liverpool have come when Carragher has been in the side.

The fact the defence is so deep creates space for Carroll to score. Or something.