Topic: Our Fundamental Problem

[L666KOP]

His best season was probably his last one at Villa, when he's had 8 goals and 8 assists in 44 appearances. He was playing predominantly on the right last season there.

Was he not tried through the middle at one point?
I'm sure one of the managers tried him for a decent run of games?
Not sure how he did though.

[arnaldo]

Come on, admit it....those of us watching the schalke Bilbao game last night were saying to ourselves 'I hope we buy someone like llorente or huntelaar in the summer' along with a few thoughts about Martinez and munain

[Z e u s]

Our main problem is not finishing our chances.  A clinical striker would make us a top four team.

To make us challengers for the title - we probably need a top class wide player and play making central midfielder - allowing Gerrard to play higher up the field. 

But we really don't have too many problems, but if you don't score goals you don't win matches and we have lacked a finisher all season.

I'd break the bank for Cavani or Soldado. 

Then upgrade Kuyt, Maxi, Aurelio and whoever else Dalglish feels can be improved upon such as Adam maybe Carroll and Downing.  Then Carragher needs to be told he is fourth choice, if he isn't happy with that then he can leave and Wisdom can be the fourth choice centre back.

But Reina, Johnson, Kelly, Agger, Skrtel, Coates, Widsom, Enrique, Robinson, Lucas, Spearing, Henderson, Shelvey, Gerrard, Bellamy, Suarez, Sterling, Suso is a real good base to work with for the present and the future.

[Eeyore]

The fundamental problem for me is that we play 4-2-3-1 at all levels of the Club until we get to the first team. That needs to be addressed if players can't or don't want to play 4-2-3-1 then just show them the door and bring in players who will. We need to forge an identity and an ideology of how the game should be played. To do that we need to believe in what we are doing 100% and any dissenters need to be removed.

High tempo, high pressure pass and move where everyone knows their job, whether they have come through the Academy or have been brought in. If you are unwilling or unable to adapt then tough shit, we are running a Football Club not a Charity. The Club has been too soft for too long and the sooner we address that the better, with the advent of FFP we cannot afford expensive hangers on anymore. Leave the pissing about with the formation on the Fly to the England National team and get back to the blueprint for the future.

[dumbo]

You seem to forget that Albert Riera was actually pretty effective in our 4-2-3-1.

Riera? I never understood what happened to him... he had the best touch of anyone at the club, including Torres.  He should have been successful anywhere - huge disappointment, I can certainly understand why we bought him and why it mostly worked.  Not a great goalscoring record though.

This formation does not require inverted wide attacking players. Of course, you can play it that way, but in that case, you are narrowing your game, and decreasing the space for Suarez. The entire idea of the proposed setup is to create more space for Suarez.

I don't see Suarez as a player crying out for space, more the opposite.  He excels in close proximity to defenders, and uses that against them.

As for Downing, the idea that he is effective only on the right is a clear case of short memories. His most effective season at 'Boro (2007/08) was on the left, when he's had 10 goals and 5 assists in 43 appearances.

Based on what I've seen this season, and his career goalscoring record - I still wouldn't play him on the left of a 4-2-3-1.  Maybe he'll "come good", I'm not an expert .

[GrkStav]

The fundamental problem for me is that we play 4-2-3-1 at all levels of the Club until we get to the first team. That needs to be addressed if players can't or don't want to play 4-2-3-1 then just show them the door and bring in players who will. We need to forge an identity and an ideology of how the game should be played. To do that we need to believe in what we are doing 100% and any dissenters need to be removed.

High tempo, high pressure pass and move where everyone knows their job, whether they have come through the Academy or have been brought in. If you are unwilling or unable to adapt then tough shit, we are running a Football Club not a Charity. The Club has been too soft for too long and the sooner we address that the better, with the advent of FFP we cannot afford expensive hangers on anymore. Leave the pissing about with the formation on the Fly to the England National team and get back to the blueprint for the future.

THIS.

Having said that, even Rafa said that he bought Crouchie "to have a different option". To me, Carroll is not a 4-2-3-1 kind of striker. Never say never, but I am pretty close to saying so with regard to him in the future, in a 4-2-3-1, as well. Unless you're flush with cash, you don't spend as much as we did on Carroll to have "another/different option".

[Blade]

I don't see Suarez as a player crying out for space, more the opposite.  He excels in close proximity to defenders, and uses that against them.

He is even more dangerous when he has more space. Hence his 111 goals and 68 assists in 159 appearances for Ajax.

[dumbo]

He is even more dangerous when he has more space. Hence his 111 goals and 68 assists in 159 appearances for Ajax.

I seem to remember Babel and Kuyt both had amazing goalscoring records in Holland?  Not proof either way, but my own feeling is that Suarez creates space for everyone else and we just need players to exploit the gaps he creates, and finish the chances that he's created.

[Z e u s]

Kuyt has a very good scoring record here, given he usually plays on the right.

Ronaldo, Gudjohnson, Bergkamp, RVN, Kluivert, Van Persie, Jimmy Floyd H, Litmanen etc didn't do too bad coming from that league either!

[GrkStav]

I think most people who opine on these matters are regular either match-goers or match-watchers. Some even do both or watch the games twice, once live (or without knowing the final result, if on tape) and once knowing the final result. Therefore, most do not need to use statistics, especially mere correlations, to gain anything but a summary view of the matches.

If that's the case, I do not see how the repeated (ad nauseam) appeal to the W/D/L 'record' of LFC with or without Carroll makes any sense. Unless one has substantive backing, meaning, one can point to a large number of cases in actual games, demonstrable visual/video evidence, for the claims that with Carroll on the pitch e.g. Suarez gets more time and space to operate, then I think we should just ignore those statistics. There are plenty of meaningless, even misleading statistical correlations in life.

All in all, I think VdM OP has 'survived' the intervening discussion and debate, and is still sound.

[Z e u s]

Here is our biggest problem, our £35 million striker who was bought to score goals has been awful:

2011/12 Barclays Premier League

GAMES GOALS ASSISTS SHOTS
   28        3         1          56

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/91478/andrew-carroll?cc=5739

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

Come on, admit it....those of us watching the schalke Bilbao game last night were saying to ourselves 'I hope we buy someone like llorente or huntelaar in the summer' along with a few thoughts about Martinez and munain

Come on admit it you want to post a fantasy formation  - you know you do...

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

Id play sterling and bellamy with Andy - just for 20 minutes to see what would happen.

Teams defend higher up against us when Andy is playing as they dont want their defenderr competing with him in the box.

Get a fast breaking midfielder onto his knockdowns and theyll create absolute havoc.

[Z e u s]

Id play sterling and bellamy with Andy - just for 20 minutes to see what would happen.

and Suarez?

[GrkStav]

Id play sterling and bellamy with Andy - just for 20 minutes to see what would happen.

Teams defend higher up against us when Andy is playing as they dont want their defenderr competing with him in the box.

Get a fast breaking midfielder onto his knockdowns and theyll create absolute havoc.

They do?

[BEAST]

The fundamental problem for me is that we play 4-2-3-1 at all levels of the Club until we get to the first team. That needs to be addressed if players can't or don't want to play 4-2-3-1 then just show them the door and bring in players who will. We need to forge an identity and an ideology of how the game should be played.

And what if Kenny doesn't want to play a 4231?  Do you want him fired then?

[GrkStav]

And what if Kenny doesn't want to play a 4231?  Do you want him fired then?

WTF?

[BEAST]

WTF?

He is saying if players don't want to or can't play 4231 they should be shipped out.

But what if we have no intention of playing a 4231?

Some of you guys jerk off furiously in the pre-match threads posting 4231 formations for your preferred lineup, but we never play it.

[GrkStav]

He is saying if players don't want to or can't play 4231 they should be shipped out.

But what if we have no intention of playing a 4231?

Some of you guys jerk off furiously in the pre-match threads posting 4231 formations for your preferred lineup, but we never play it.

First of all, why exactly do you have to say things like "jerk off furiously" etc?

Secondly, "if we have no intention of playing 4231" then why on earth are we teaching it and using at the Academy and Reserves levels?

At the very least, that we do so implies that this is our long-term preferred system. Fair enough if, based on currently available personnel, a different formation and system is indicated.

How you got to "do you want him [i.e.Dalglish] fired?" must remain a mystery, though.

[BEAST]

It's quite simple:

If the manager has no intention of playing 4231 then what?  Do you take back your statement about "we should ship out those who don't fit into a 4231"?

[Dubai_Red]

Our problems are not as bad as they seem. Our main issue is that we have played most of the season without two components in our team which are vital to a team which is looking to dominate smaller/lesser sides namely a top quality DM and a clinical striker.

The DM issue is obviously down to the loss of Lucas (as well as Alonso and Mascherano I guess). Without Lucas we've struggled to impose our will on a lot of the games I've watched this year. Everything we do seems rushed and little more than hopeful. Lucas' return and bringing in a suitable understudy should go a long way in improving our style of play and our control over where the majority of game will be played.

The striker issue is a tough one. We've pushed the boat out on Andy and I can understand why the management team was reluctant to look to replace him in the last window. The problem has the potential to persist regardless of if we choose to continue to rely on Andy showing some (massive) improvement or if Kenny decides to try and find someone else who we can rely on to regularly find the back of the net. Even if we do sign another striker we will still have a potential problem as we could end up with two strikers who can't or won't fit into our style of play.

The striker issue is a major worry and, to be honest, I'm not sure what I would do in Kenny's position.

Players in the mould of AC are not going to be prolific. We need a prolific striker at the club, then we keep AC or don't will not matter as much! If we have to sell, then do it now and recoup as much as we can as I fear he's stock will be on decline from now onwards. Could be wrong on it, but at this moment nothing I have seen suggests I am.

[GrkStav]

It's quite simple:

If the manager has no intention of playing 4231 then what?  Do you take back your statement about "we should ship out those who don't fit into a 4231"?

Btw, I am not the person who made that statement.

Second, if the manager has no intention of ever playing 4231 as our standard formation, then we should stop using it and teaching it at Youth/Academy and Reserve levels. Most especially at the Reserves level. Given our injury record, our Reserves must be truly reserves. No use having them play a system that is not the one the first-team uses.

As for the rest, I think you're just looking for a verbal fight with someone, perhaps specifically with Al, or with anyone who likes the 4231.

[Twelfth Man]

Btw, I am not the person who made that statement.

Second, if the manager has no intention of ever playing 4231 as our standard formation, then we should stop using it and teaching it at Youth/Academy and Reserve levels. Most especially at the Reserves level. Given our injury record, our Reserves must be truly reserves. No use having them play a system that is not the one the first-team uses.

As for the rest, I think you're just looking for a verbal fight with someone, perhaps specifically with Al, or with anyone who likes the 4231.

Agree about need for consistency through all levels at the club. We should also have a philosophy, fluid pass and move and perhaps not a rigid fixation on any particular formation. That way team/player's can adapt.

[BEAST]

^
Personally I like the 4231, but I don't think it's GOD the way some posters here swear by it.  I think a 433 is best since you have more flexibility when you rotate midfielders (or get injuries, suspensions, etc) but whatever - the 4231 is fine too.

the point is this though - why does everyone keep going on and on and on about the 4231 when the 1st team is not playing it?  And the first team didn't buy players who fit a specific role in it last summer?

It's like you guys live in an alternate reality and are ignoring what is going on.  This is not a 4231 team. 

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

It's quite simple:

If the manager has no intention of playing 4231 then what?  Do you take back your statement about "we should ship out those who don't fit into a 4231"?

Yeah, we shouldn't have a manager who doesn't want to play to the system setup by the club

[GrkStav]

^
Personally I like the 4231, but I don't think it's GOD the way some posters here swear by it.  I think a 433 is best since you have more flexibility when you rotate midfielders (or get injuries, suspensions, etc) but whatever - the 4231 is fine too.

the point is this though - why does everyone keep going on and on and on about the 4231 when the 1st team is not playing it?  And the first team didn't buy players who fit a specific role in it last summer?

It's like you guys live in an alternate reality and are ignoring what is going on.  This is not a 4231 team.

Explain then why the Academy and Reserves consistently teach and deploy that formation and system. You may be right as to the senior team, but perhaps it's a temporary situation. Otherwise, there seems to be 0 logic to teaching and deploying one system in the Academy and Reserves and a different one for the senior squad.

[Robbo1980]

If you play 4231 you have to press high up the pitch, unfortunately too often this year, and in contrast to the end of last year, we are not doing that, we have reverted to standing off.

[farawayred]

Explain then why the Academy and Reserves consistently teach and deploy that formation and system. You may be right as to the senior team, but perhaps it's a temporary situation. Otherwise, there seems to be 0 logic to teaching and deploying one system in the Academy and Reserves and a different one for the senior squad.

I've been following the debate and I agree that it shouldn't even be a debate - we need consistency on all levels. But isn't it possible that the 4-2-3-1 is the system we want for the future, but we don't have the proper players in the senior squad to execute it and Kenny has to adjust to what he has? Maybe this issue has to be reviewed next year after we have a summer during which we could put things right (in the market).

[GrkStav]

I've been following the debate and I agree that it shouldn't even be a debate - we need consistency on all levels. But isn't it possible that the 4-2-3-1 is the system we want for the future, but we don't have the proper players in the senior squad to execute it and Kenny has to adjust to what he has? Maybe this issue has to be reviewed next year after we have a summer during which we could put things right (in the market).

Yes. That's why I consistently include the caveat that this may be a temporary situation, borne of current personnel available due to injuries combined with acquisitions and departures.

[farawayred]

Yes. That's why I consistently include the caveat that this may be a temporary situation, borne of current personnel available due to injuries combined with acquisitions and departures.

Fair enough. That's how I see it too.

[L666KOP]

Yes. That's why I consistently include the caveat that this may be a temporary situation, borne of current personnel available due to injuries combined with acquisitions and departures.

But why did we spend 100 million on players that couldn't play in the system.

[GrkStav]

But why did we spend 100 million on players that couldn't play in the system.

Henderson, Downing, and Enrique (even Adam) are perfectly capable of playing in the 4-2-3-1. Personally, I don't think Carroll is. I also do not think he was purchased as a standard option 4-2-3-1 ST. He was (for too much money) to give us the equivalent of Crouch for Rafa: another, a different, option. Generally speaking, so was Adam.

Given that we lost Lucas, that Gerrard was injured for too long, and that we didn't buy a proper either partner to Lucas or rotation-replacement for him, we've had to 'make do' and try to get the best off our current personnel.

[Torpedo Tommy]

I'd really love to believe that the formation is "our fundemental problem".

It might play a part but it really isn't just that. 

Might be a problem if we are say playing 4-5-1 or 4-3-3, take the lead then suddenly retreat to a 8-1-1 mind

[farawayred]

But why did we spend 100 million on players that couldn't play in the system.

Did you know in advance that they couldn't? You should have rang Comolli.

[L666KOP]

Personally, I don't think Carroll is. I also do not think he was purchased as a standard option 4-2-3-1 ST.

So basically he was a panic buy that they thought they could 'mould' into the position ??
And if not why did we buy him ??

[L666KOP]

Did you know in advance that they couldn't? You should have rang Comolli.

All the stats and research that goes into procedings pre transfer, and they couldn't work out whether they'd be adaptable to a certain system?
If that's the case I reckon I could do a fucking better job than Comolli.

[farawayred]

So basically he was a panic buy that they thought they could 'mould' into the position ??
And if not why did we buy him ??

Let's not derail the thread by beating a dead horse, please! This Carroll price tag / panic purchase / PR money / etc. debate has been done to death in many threads that ended up being locked.

[L666KOP]

Let's not derail the thread by beating a dead horse, please! This Carroll price tag / panic purchase / PR money / etc. debate has been done to death in many threads that ended up being locked.

It's not a derail, but it's been said that the players are taught 4231 from academy level, yet the poster I was replying to had the opinion that Carroll wasn't bought with that in mind, I was merely enquiring as to his thoughts as to why he was purchased.

[Blade]

Who says that Andy Carroll can't play in a proper 4-2-3-1?

[farawayred]

My reaction was in reference to this sentence of yours:

So basically he was a panic buy that they thought they could 'mould' into the position ??

The "why was he bought" (keeping only footballing reasons in mind) question is fair. I tend to agree that he was supposed to be "an option".