Author Topic: Jordan Henderson  (Read 431512 times)

Offline Fordy

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #760 on: March 12, 2012, 06:56:42 am »
You think Adam is a superior player...  ???

Never said that.

Why bring Adam into it?

Think Adam has been better than Henderson this season that is for sure.

Offline Believe

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #761 on: March 12, 2012, 07:00:26 am »
Never said that.

Why bring Adam into it?

Think Adam has been better than Henderson this season that is for sure.

I think if Henderson had been played in the centre in every game and Charlie on the left, there would have been a big difference. Jordan has looked decent when in a position he's familiar with.

Offline Fordy

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #762 on: March 12, 2012, 07:03:33 am »
I think if Henderson had been played in the centre in every game and Charlie on the left, there would have been a big difference. Jordan has looked decent when in a position he's familiar with.

Let's but this rubbish to bed.

Henderson has played on the right many, many times. It's a position he started off in and played a lot there for Sunderland.

So don't give me this he isn't familar on the right rubbish. It's a poor agruement.

Henderson would do no better in the centre.

Offline Ben86

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #763 on: March 12, 2012, 07:04:54 am »
These are exactly the kind of discussions we had when Lucas arrived here. Anybody with an ounce of football knowledge can see that Henderson has excellent basics upon which we can build - if we develop him properly. His technique is brilliant, he seems to have a good awareness of what's going on around him. He doesn't ask for the ball enough and sometimes he is too hesitant when he has the ball, but that's something you can learn. Not sure if we have the right coaches to support him, but the potential is very obviously there.

Offline Fordy

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #764 on: March 12, 2012, 07:14:50 am »
These are exactly the kind of discussions we had when Lucas arrived here. Anybody with an ounce of football knowledge can see that Henderson has excellent basics upon which we can build - if we develop him properly. His technique is brilliant, he seems to have a good awareness of what's going on around him. He doesn't ask for the ball enough and sometimes he is too hesitant when he has the ball, but that's something you can learn. Not sure if we have the right coaches to support him, but the potential is very obviously there.

Agree he has the basics and has decent awareness.

Massive difference between Lucas situation and Henderson situation though. Lucas was manged right. Not saying Henderson won't be but so far in his career he has been your normal English loving player and played no matter what. Remember last season at Sunderland and he was awful and the Sunderland fans were getting on his back he was that bad but Fat head kept playing him and after after 20 games Henderson came good again.

Now if Henderson is to improve for me we have to take him out of the firing line at time to time.

Don't understand why it's not Bellamy and Downing on the wings(yes I know Downing has been poor).

If we're to play Henderson for me I would have him as a DM(played there many a time for England Under 21's) and then we can all compare him to Lucas.

I wouldn't play him at CM as yet cause I don't think he is good enough.

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #765 on: March 12, 2012, 07:15:36 am »
Henderson would do no better in the centre.

Except he already has. He's justified his selection on merit when picked at the head of a three in the centre, his ability to move the ball on / keep possession as necessary really links the attack ; there's still a lot of work to do when played deeper though.

He's below average on the right. Think Adam played with a similar brief on the left wing would offer more, easily.

Offline Discipline

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #766 on: March 12, 2012, 07:20:01 am »
You have holes in every argument...

How would he be better as a DM than as a CM?
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Offline Renato

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #767 on: March 12, 2012, 07:47:33 am »
How on earth is Henderson a better DM than CM?

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #768 on: March 12, 2012, 07:55:52 am »
henderson vs sunderland

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/zfJpQWYyxlc?version=3" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/zfJpQWYyxlc?version=3</a>
Afteer watching that, it's amazing how static and slow our players are when we have the ball

Offline Fordy

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #769 on: March 12, 2012, 08:05:54 am »
How on earth is Henderson a better DM than CM?

Cause he can keep it simple.

Bit like a Barry or a carrick.

Not all Dm's have to be hard tackling.

To be honest I am just trying to find hope - if I am honest with myself I don't think he ever will be good enough matter what position he plays.

Offline Discipline

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #770 on: March 12, 2012, 08:08:32 am »
Cause he can keep it simple.

Bit like a Barry or a carrick.

Not all Dm's have to be hard tackling.

To be honest I am just trying to find hope - if I am honest with myself I don't think he ever will be good enough matter what position he plays.

Clown. :lmao
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Offline lachesis

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #771 on: March 12, 2012, 08:16:38 am »
Henderson has played on the right many, many times. It's a position he started off in and played a lot there for Sunderland.


Bolded part correct, other part incorrect (with regards to Sunderland).

From the Sunderland accounts he was moved to the right from the central position because he wasn't 'playing well'. By 'playing well' this meant he was not marauding into the box or a free scoring midfielder. Through injuries and different midfield combinations he was put in a variety of positions. He was tried on the right as his corners and set plays were of a high quality and this obviously transferred to the wing.

Here, there is no one to cross to in the box and the whole team is suffering with crossing (not just him) and he hasn't been given a chance with any other set pieces. It suited Sunderland to stick him out there on the right and dumb him down into a 'toss the ball in there' type of player based on a decent attribute he had.

Teams like Sunderland (and I'm speaking generally here) don't need a midfield type of player like Henderson, they are not interested in keeping possession like the continentals. This is no disservice to teams like Sunderland, they play to their strengths and as shown against us they are effective at it. They are quick, direct and take advantage of high quality set plays.

I suppose the argument could shift to how effective Henderson was in the Sunderland midfield though.

Offline Renato

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #772 on: March 12, 2012, 08:19:34 am »
Cause he can keep it simple.

Bit like a Barry or a carrick.

Not all Dm's have to be hard tackling.

To be honest I am just trying to find hope - if I am honest with myself I don't think he ever will be good enough matter what position he plays.

Nah i reckon he'll staying here for a good few years yet. He is a pass and move player and I think one day he will be seen as one of our best players. You can't deny he has shown potential and at times been very good so I can't relate to your reluctance to admit that he will get better and better yet you blindly praise Adam who has, overall, been worse than Hendo this year.

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #773 on: March 12, 2012, 08:24:34 am »
Is that video supposed to illustrate that Henderson had a good game?

Offline Ben86

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #774 on: March 12, 2012, 08:27:03 am »
Agree he has the basics and has decent awareness.

Massive difference between Lucas situation and Henderson situation though. Lucas was manged right. Not saying Henderson won't be but so far in his career he has been your normal English loving player and played no matter what. Remember last season at Sunderland and he was awful and the Sunderland fans were getting on his back he was that bad but Fat head kept playing him and after after 20 games Henderson came good again.

Now if Henderson is to improve for me we have to take him out of the firing line at time to time.

Don't understand why it's not Bellamy and Downing on the wings(yes I know Downing has been poor).

If we're to play Henderson for me I would have him as a DM(played there many a time for England Under 21's) and then we can all compare him to Lucas.

I wouldn't play him at CM as yet cause I don't think he is good enough.

That sounds a bit different to what you've posted here before and I agree with most of it. However the deciding factor here is Lucas. He is sorely needed for the development of Jordan Henderson. Playing alongside Lucas would give Henderson a sense of security, knowing that there is a teammate that will cover for you when you go forward.

With Adam he has to second guess his next move and you can see that he does that. I'll admit that I'm not a fan of Adam, I think he's too weak tactically, but he does have his strengths, mainly his will to go forward. It's an important quality. But it does leave Henderson hanging if he's played in the middle.

I think we can get a lot out of Jordan Henderson, but as you pointed out, he has to be managed right. A young player needs to be allowed to make mistakes and not be shouted down for them, especially in a central position where so many things depend on experience. It's why Lucas needed a bit of time and it's why Schweinsteiger starts excelling there now. And it's why players like Xavi and Iniesta are getting better every year. I'm not comparing Henderson to these world class players, but his position is at least comparable.

Offline Discipline

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #775 on: March 12, 2012, 08:31:00 am »
Is that video supposed to illustrate that Henderson had a good game?

To be fair, there's not too many players that do well against their former club. He did okay, considering hardly no one turned up to the game.
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Offline Fordy

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #776 on: March 12, 2012, 08:48:57 am »
To be fair, there's not too many players that do well against their former club. He did okay, considering hardly no one turned up to the game.

Just like the 1st game of season when we played them he was dog awful and not much has changed since.

But we can live in hope.

Offline Brentieke

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #777 on: March 12, 2012, 08:49:08 am »
Cause he can keep it simple.

Bit like a Barry or a carrick.

Not all Dm's have to be hard tackling.

To be honest I am just trying to find hope - if I am honest with myself I don't think he ever will be good enough matter what position he plays.

Same here.

Think it's a courage issue with him though. If he learns to grow some balls, then maybe yes, he'll develop into a good player.

If he doesnt, then no.
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Offline Brentieke

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #778 on: March 12, 2012, 08:49:54 am »
Clown. :lmao

Sorry but there's not much wrong with what he said.

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Offline lachesis

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #779 on: March 12, 2012, 08:52:30 am »
With all this debate about Henderson v Adam. Is there not a case to start him alongside Adam to let him prove himself?

He is disciplined in his position at least and gives Adam a platform to play from?

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #780 on: March 12, 2012, 08:56:12 am »
With all this debate about Henderson v Adam. Is there not a case to start him alongside Adam to let him prove himself?

He is disciplined in his position at least and gives Adam a platform to play from?

Absolutely.

But then you also need Spearing in there given that Henderson doesnt tackle and Adam cant.

And where does that leave Gerrard?

Offline Wish Matrix

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #781 on: March 12, 2012, 08:56:36 am »
Just like the 1st game of season when we played them he was dog awful and not much has changed since.

But we can live in hope.

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #782 on: March 12, 2012, 09:02:52 am »
Just like the 1st game of season when we played them he was dog awful and not much has changed since.

But we can live in hope.

Funny how after he came off we stopped playing the possession football and insisted on going with the hoofing.  ::)
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Offline Brentieke

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #783 on: March 12, 2012, 09:02:55 am »
With all this debate about Henderson v Adam. Is there not a case to start him alongside Adam to let him prove himself?

He is disciplined in his position at least and gives Adam a platform to play from?

Those 2 played together against QPR, Villa, Wigan and Blackburn. They certainly didnt excell and Henderson was as anonymous as ever.
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Offline lachesis

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #784 on: March 12, 2012, 09:03:52 am »
And where does that leave Gerrard?

That's the elephant in the room really isn't it? I thought Gerrard had a possibility to go back to central midfield two seasons ago. I think now injuries have taken their toll as has age - on a still great engine mind - and I think it's now beyond him. I think the central midfield role is now a quite disciplined and measured role. I know it won't be a popular opinion especially given that Gerrard has been our talisman for so long, but these are indeed the last days of the Gerrard of old and he now needs to adapt.

There is the argument that switching Henderson and Gerrard might be beneficial - Stevie has shown he can play as the right side of a three pronged attack and he's also shown he has the ability to send over crosses which Carroll seems to read.

There is the possibility we accept he is better than Adam in a midfield trio of Henderson, Spearing and Gerrard also, and rotate Adam and Gerrard, giving him a bit more of a free reign which he is used to.

Offline Discipline

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #785 on: March 12, 2012, 09:04:51 am »
Sorry but there's not much wrong with what he said.

You're right. He's never going to get good. Ever. Must get rid. End of. I mean we should persist with Adam in the middle, as he's the better footballer after all and is having the better season.  ::)
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Offline Brentieke

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #786 on: March 12, 2012, 09:06:29 am »
You're right. He's never going to get good. Ever. Must get rid. End of. I mean we should persist with Adam in the middle, as he's the better footballer after all and is having the better season.  ::)

Adam is having a better season. I find it ridiculous that people may even try to deny that. Doesnt say much considering how anonymous Henderson has been all season though.

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Offline muyuu

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #787 on: March 12, 2012, 09:06:46 am »
It was 13M rising to 16M.
Sky decided the deal cost us 20M, and Fordy uses the figure to add weight to his nonsensical argument.

16M then?
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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #788 on: March 12, 2012, 09:09:28 am »
Charlie Adam is 26 years old, and primarily bought to take care of the free kicks and creative distribution of the ball. which he fails to do in most games he playes in, almost every recent game he takes the first two corners and is being replaced by someone else for the rest of the corners, he's free kicks rarely beat the first defender and no to mention the poor penalty kicks . He is far too slow to play DM without committing stupid fouls, his decision making is frustrating.

Henderson is 21 and very much a like lucas when he first arrived to the club, confidence issues which limited his performances by a great distance. quick feet, works like a horse and never stops running, great ball control. Played most of the time out of position, Yes he can play on the right wing but he delivers mostly in the middle. His decision making is often the result of lack of confidence, with time he can develop into more then a Good player, time will tell if he goes for it or will constantly struggle with confidence which for now makes him into an average mid table team player.

Not a brainer who should be playing and who should be dropped to the bench.
Quote from: Fordy on July 20, 2012, 01:24:46 PM
Anything more that 6m for Joe Allen and we have been ripped off.

Loads of Joe allens out there.

I would like to see him stay at Swansea myself and see if he can have another decent season. He is a championship player - players like a championship player.

Offline Discipline

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #789 on: March 12, 2012, 09:10:00 am »
Adam is having a better season. I find it ridiculous that people may even try to deny that. Doesnt say much considering how anonymous Henderson has been all season though.

Based on what?

He's been anonymous in certain games on the right granted, but to say he won't make it here when he's shown he can play in the middle is ridiculous.
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #790 on: March 12, 2012, 09:13:50 am »
That's the elephant in the room really isn't it? I thought Gerrard had a possibility to go back to central midfield two seasons ago. I think now injuries have taken their toll as has age - on a still great engine mind - and I think it's now beyond him. I think the central midfield role is now a quite disciplined and measured role. I know it won't be a popular opinion especially given that Gerrard has been our talisman for so long, but these are indeed the last days of the Gerrard of old and he now needs to adapt.

There is the argument that switching Henderson and Gerrard might be beneficial - Stevie has shown he can play as the right side of a three pronged attack and he's also shown he has the ability to send over crosses which Carroll seems to read.

Id like to see Suarez out on the right myself, and given Gerrard's supposed resistance to playing there I doubt it'll happen. Although I fully agree that he would be a huge asset to have out there. Im just leaning a little more towards wanting to try to get the best out of Luis right now so personally Id move him out there before Gerrard. But both clearly have their merits.

There is the possibility we accept he is better than Adam in a midfield trio of Henderson, Spearing and Gerrard also, and rotate Adam and Gerrard, giving him a bit more of a free reign which he is used to.

That's exactly what im hoping for.

There's a balance to those 3 that I dont think we've seen all season. Gerrard can attack, its what he's best at and its where we desperately need his quality. He can do so safe in the knowledge that Henderson and Spearing will keep delivering him the ball. Its what they do best. As well as being certain that the two of them can provide the industry and shape to allow him to not have to worry about his defensive game.

Henderson gets the creative burden taken off his back to some extent and is able to focus more on what he does best, which is creating a bit of tempo and keeping the ball moving. And Spearing gets a bit of added security from having Henderson next to him, he might not be hard in the tackle, but can at least press and cover pretty well. Something Adam is notoriously bad at.

It also means that Adam can come off the bench, something which he's done with distinction a few times this season. He's a good impact sub to have, particularly for an aging and possibly tiring Gerrard in that more advanced role.

Offline lachesis

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #791 on: March 12, 2012, 09:15:17 am »
Those 2 played together against QPR, Villa, Wigan and Blackburn. They certainly didnt excell and Henderson was as anonymous as ever.

But that's not indicative of consistently playing together.We had the same debates about Mascherano and Alonso playing together, then Gerrard and Alonso, then Lucas and anyone. I think it's unfair to judge the potential of a midfield pairing when one of the guys is 21, both are new signings and are playing in a struggling team. Even Lucas and Adam didn't gel straightaway.

Offline Brentieke

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #792 on: March 12, 2012, 09:17:50 am »
Based on what?

He's been anonymous in certain games on the right granted, but to say he won't make it here when he's shown he can play in the middle is ridiculous.

Based on the fact that he's directly created 5 more goals, indirectly created 6 more goals and has always tried to create something even if he ended up looking stupid.

Henderson's got one goal, one assist and a whole lot of hiding.
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Offline Brentieke

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #793 on: March 12, 2012, 09:19:20 am »
But that's not indicative of consistently playing together.We had the same debates about Mascherano and Alonso playing together, then Gerrard and Alonso, then Lucas and anyone. I think it's unfair to judge the potential of a midfield pairing when one of the guys is 21, both are new signings and are playing in a struggling team. Even Lucas and Adam didn't gel straightaway.

No I agree but it certainly debunks the myth that Henderson has looked great in the middle.

The games he's played there he's looked as anonymous as most of the games he's played anywhere else. It ain't a position problem with him- it's a mental and heart problem. Simply not ready to be anything but a squad player at a club of our size.

And, you know what? Ask anyone who saw him play at Sunderland last year and they'll you he's simply replicating his form for them (where he played often on the right too). He's shown nothing this year that he didnt last year, he certainly didnt play better last year.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 09:22:14 am by Brentie »
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Offline ziggyy

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #794 on: March 12, 2012, 09:20:53 am »
Young player, no issues with the poor form/mistakes he makes. Most of the sensible people will give him time, just like what some of us did with Lucas.

The only issue I have is Kenny's decision to constantly use him as a first team player.  Give the guy sometime to develop, get use to our system(s...), it's not as if we are short of CMs..... oh wait, I forgot, we let go of Meireles and that Italian guy....

Price wise.... we paid whatever we sold that silly boy for -£15mil for Carroll, probably about £20mil for England's top training cone, so anything under £20mil should be considered a bargain for us...



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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #795 on: March 12, 2012, 09:22:59 am »
Same here.

Think it's a courage issue with him though. If he learns to grow some balls, then maybe yes, he'll develop into a good player.

If he doesnt, then no.

Not sure if it's just me, but he still at times looks a little bit 'starstruck', like he can't believe he's at a club like Liverpool, I half expect him to ask Gerrard for his shirt at the final whistle.
Also at times he tends to 'wander' quite a lot as well, is this part of the gameplan, or is he not disciplined to hold his position, I think there's a decent player in there somewhere, it's up to the coaching staff to try and find it.
I believe his position in the team will be CM, now whether Kenny doesn't think he's ready for it yet and is just giving him gametime I don't know, or does he see him on the right ? For me he's a bit of an 'anomoly', he offers neither the covering ability of Dirk, nor the attacking prowess of either of our wingers. If I had to sum him up in one word?   Bland.
13mins - Bournemouth have gone home. Utd kicked off anyway. Still 0-0 as Smalling passes it back to De Gea.

Offline Brentieke

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #796 on: March 12, 2012, 09:23:22 am »
Young player, no issues with the poor form/mistakes he makes. Most of the sensible people will give him time, just like what some of us did with Lucas.

The only issue I have is Kenny's decision to constantly use him as a first team player.  Give the guy sometime to develop, get use to our system(s...), it's not as if we are short of CMs..... oh wait, I forgot, we let go of Meireles and that Italian guy....

Price wise.... we paid whatever we sold that silly boy for -£15mil for Carroll, probably about £20mil for England's top training cone, so anything under £20mil should be considered a bargain for us...




Agreed. Cool. I'll give him time. No worries.

But then treat him like a young player. Treat him like Lucas. Keep him as a squad player, on the bench at times. Stop playing him game in, game out. He's nowhere near ready enough or ballsy enough to be anywhere near a first 11 starter for us.
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Offline jaffod

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #797 on: March 12, 2012, 09:28:35 am »
Charlie Adam is 26 years old, and primarily bought to take care of the free kicks and creative distribution of the ball. which he fails to do in most games he playes in, almost every recent game he takes the first two corners and is being replaced by someone else for the rest of the corners, he's free kicks rarely beat the first defender and no to mention the poor penalty kicks . He is far too slow to play DM without committing stupid fouls, his decision making is frustrating.

Henderson is 21 and very much a like lucas when he first arrived to the club, confidence issues which limited his performances by a great distance. quick feet, works like a horse and never stops running, great ball control. Played most of the time out of position, Yes he can play on the right wing but he delivers mostly in the middle. His decision making is often the result of lack of confidence, with time he can develop into more then a Good player, time will tell if he goes for it or will constantly struggle with confidence which for now makes him into an average mid table team player.

Not a brainer who should be playing and who should be dropped to the bench.

They should both be on the bench, that's if there's room. I'd much prefer to see Shelvey given a run in the side alongside Spearing with Gerrard more advanced.
 Might work, might not...but you never know until you try it.

Given a choice between the 2 I'd stick with Adam despite his many faults. One of his Hollywood balls or mazy dribbles might just result in something as opposed to the safe Jamie Redknapp-style nothingness Henderson offers.

Offline ziggyy

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #798 on: March 12, 2012, 09:29:10 am »
Agreed. Cool. I'll give him time. No worries.

But then treat him like a young player. Treat him like Lucas. Keep him as a squad player, on the bench at times. Stop playing him game in, game out. He's nowhere near ready enough or ballsy enough to be anywhere near a first 11 starter for us.

That's how I feel too... the only possiblity is we do lack cover in the midfield positions (I wonder why...). 

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Re: Jordan Henderson
« Reply #799 on: March 12, 2012, 09:38:41 am »
Henderson will develope into a quality player for us (as will Shelvey). He's only 21 and does show massive potential when the team is playing well. Of course they'll be times when he dissapears thats part of the ceveloping process. Adam should just be a squad player. No where near good enough to be a main midfielder as he's too slow useless at tackling or tracking back, hits way too many hollywood balls. Cant see why we made such a fuss about buying him and we'd have been better off keeping one of the 2 we got rid of.