Topic: Comolli: Only 1or 2 adjustments in the summer

[Flaccid Bobby Fowler]

id take de jong in a heartbeat. him and lucas for that type of role.
from last night munian looked class as did martinez!

[Renato]

 

id take de jong in a heartbeat. him and lucas for that type of role.
from last night munian looked class as did martinez!

We probably only have a shot of De Jobg out of that bunch tho

[Lenin.]

LFC if are serious to get to TOP4 and not just stopping there need a REAL SHAKE UP

Throw OUT CARROLL ,HENDERSON & ENRIQUE FOR SURE...
 
Get a Cover for Skrtel --- like Coates for AGGER.

BRING ALBA / KOLAROV   (5-7m)   ------for LB

LUCAS will be fit next season but we do need a BACKUP for him as well who can come in HANDY to cover for GERRARD as well ---- TINO COSTA (10-12m)

ADAM is not consistent enough for 1st team ---- EVER BANEGA (15-16m) or AQUILANI (our own)

MUNIAIN or HAZARD as they both can play LEFT & RIGHT and could either take place of DOWNING or SUB for either DOWNING/ KUYT.

MOST IMPORTANTLY A STRIKER WHO CAN SCORE GOALS
--------CARROLL surely has to go if LFC want to save them from embarrassment

-------SUAREZ is not a GOAL scorer & has his own problems if I'll get 45-50m from PSG I'll sell him and BRING HUNTELAAR 14-15m  ,LORENTE 10-12m ,CAVANI 35m ,ROSSI 16m

this 40-65m will make a HUGE Difference when compared to COMOLI'S 100m

who thinks this guy is Kosher?

I'm finding it harder and harder to differentiate lately. 

[muyuu]

Not sure why we're even considering Bilbao players at this point.

a) their value has sky-rocketed this season, we knew some of them were gems long ago and didn't do anything about it
b) the lesson here is to give the manager time - how many big signings have Bilbao made in the recent years? just one: Ander Herrera (£7M) and that's their biggest buy ever

Their success comes from doing the exact opposite of going on a panic shopping spree every transfer season looking for instant success.

No, their secret is rather the way they play. Pass and move. The European way. The way that Shankly taught Liverpool FC to play after they were humbled in Europe when they first started to play there. And because they play pass and move, they only sign pass and move players. Just like Barcelona. Intelligent players who have been schooled from young to pass and move as a team.

We have regressed into a long ball, push and run traditional English team. We signed traditional english-style footballers instead of pass and move players. We get rid of the best pass and move players in our team - Aquilani and Meireles. So is it any surprise that we score so few goals and why there are always so few Liverpool players in the box. And why the only Liverpool players in the box are typically the only pass and move players we have - Kuyt, Suarez, Rodriguez.

They play "intelligent players who have been schooled from young to pass and move as a team" as you said, but they don't run every transfer season to buy big. The building of this squad didn't start with Bielsa. It started with Caparrós in 2007, who also built Sevilla FC from 2000-2005. Bielsa is doing a great job, but I think the team would have come together with time without Bielsa as well. Maybe not quite so excellent, but it would be a strong La Liga side.

It was only possible because of the constant effort Bilbao puts in their academy and the strong Basque sports tradition. We are not going to make a team like Bilbao or Barcelona by signing big. We can possibly make a team like City or Real Madrid by buying big but we don't have that sort of money.

[No666]

Dare I say it? Because among other things, Dalglish is no Bielsa.

Yeah, that Dalglish, what does he know? What's he ever won, eh?

[Neil D]

Yeah, that Dalglish, what does he know? What's he ever won, eh?

What relatively unheard of players did he ever sign from smaller teams and win titles with huh?

[aerorossi29]

Whatever our differing views of Andy Carroll. there is no escaping the fact that in the 15 months or so he has been with us he has regressed from the player he was at Newcastle. The key to that is why has he regressed? He had a niggly injury when he joined and he has had one or two since and even though he has shown glimpses of becoming what he was a year ago, he is nowhere near the dominating no 9 he was at Newcastle. Maybe, just maybe he is not up to changing his game to fit into how KK wants us to play, and ufortunately if that is the case, then for me he has no future at the club and keeping hold of him until he hopefully turns the corner would be futile. If we could get someone to pay maybe £15-20 million for him then i wouldnt hesitate to cash in, but by the same token if we keep him then i will continue to support him, as difficult as it has been given his form.

Think we do need an extra midfielder of the creative variety becasue i don't think Adam is good enough to play week in week out, and Gerrard is not going to play a full season. If we could get another wide player then that would be good and regardless of whether Carroll stays or goes then a goalscorer is a must. I make that 3 players, just the sort of additions teams make each year and nowhere near the 8 we made in the last year.

I want to finish by saying i did not know there were so many Athletic Bilbao fans on this forum, amazing what watching a team on tv vs the mancs can do to some people and all of a sudden their manager is the second coming and we should sign up all their players. Pleassseeeeee.

[Flaccid Bobby Fowler]

Whatever our differing views of Andy Carroll. there is no escaping the fact that in the 15 months or so he has been with us he has regressed from the player he was at Newcastle. The key to that is why has he regressed? He had a niggly injury when he joined and he has had one or two since and even though he has shown glimpses of becoming what he was a year ago, he is nowhere near the dominating no 9 he was at Newcastle. Maybe, just maybe he is not up to changing his game to fit into how KK wants us to play, and ufortunately if that is the case, then for me he has no future at the club and keeping hold of him until he hopefully turns the corner would be futile. If we could get someone to pay maybe £15-20 million for him then i wouldnt hesitate to cash in, but by the same token if we keep him then i will continue to support him, as difficult as it has been given his form.

Think we do need an extra midfielder of the creative variety becasue i don't think Adam is good enough to play week in week out, and Gerrard is not going to play a full season. If we could get another wide player then that would be good and regardless of whether Carroll stays or goes then a goalscorer is a must. I make that 3 players, just the sort of additions teams make each year and nowhere near the 8 we made in the last year.

I want to finish by saying i did not know there were so many Athletic Bilbao fans on this forum, amazing what watching a team on tv vs the mancs can do to some people and all of a sudden their manager is the second coming and we should sign up all their players. Pleassseeeeee.

in fairness munian, martinez and lorrente have been discussed round these parts for a long time mate, not just based on last night. we have been linked with lorrente for a while and we all knew about him so thats nothing new. there are other threads in the gen section like upcoming players, under 19s/21's euros, where munian and martinez have been discussed in length!

[Stevie93]

Muniain after that performance has probably become another eden hazard- unobtainable for us.

After that performance? You should have seen him against Barca earlier on in the season. He shat all over them. I was amazed.

[liverpaulhowes]

If the 1 or 2 (i'd say 2 minimum personally) are the right calibre player then it will be fine. We need a striker, Winger (that can operate either side & in behind if possible) and a CAM. bring 3 in of real quality and we can start talking

[Lenin.]

Whatever our differing views of Andy Carroll. there is no escaping the fact that in the 15 months or so he has been with us he has regressed from the player he was at Newcastle. The key to that is why has he regressed? He had a niggly injury when he joined and he has had one or two since and even though he has shown glimpses of becoming what he was a year ago, he is nowhere near the dominating no 9 he was at Newcastle. Maybe, just maybe he is not up to changing his game to fit into how KK wants us to play, and ufortunately if that is the case, then for me he has no future at the club and keeping hold of him until he hopefully turns the corner would be futile. If we could get someone to pay maybe £15-20 million for him then i wouldnt hesitate to cash in, but by the same token if we keep him then i will continue to support him, as difficult as it has been given his form.

Think we do need an extra midfielder of the creative variety becasue i don't think Adam is good enough to play week in week out, and Gerrard is not going to play a full season. If we could get another wide player then that would be good and regardless of whether Carroll stays or goes then a goalscorer is a must. I make that 3 players, just the sort of additions teams make each year and nowhere near the 8 we made in the last year.

I want to finish by saying i did not know there were so many Athletic Bilbao fans on this forum, amazing what watching a team on tv vs the mancs can do to some people and all of a sudden their manager is the second coming and we should sign up all their players. Pleassseeeeee.

Maybe 1) we need to play to his (and other players) strengths 2) too many players, for whatever reasons, himself included, have not played to their best level. (Gerrard, Spearing, Adam, Henderson, Downing, Kuyt, Maxi, Carroll & Suarez).
I would like to see our strongest team play, say, six games together before making any judgements. That team, imo, would currently be;
                  Reina
Johnson    Skrtel  Agger     Enrique
                   Lucas
            Gerrard Henderson
Suarez                                 Bellamy
                      Carroll.

[Vinay]

Yeah, that Dalglish, what does he know? What's he ever won, eh?

What relatively unheard of players did he ever sign from smaller teams and win titles with huh?

No and no. That is not what I mean. And you know it.

[Nessy76]

If the 1 or 2 (i'd say 2 minimum personally) are the right calibre player then it will be fine. We need a striker, Winger (that can operate either side & in behind if possible) and a CAM. bring 3 in of real quality and we can start talking

"1 or 2" is pure invention, Comolli never said it.

[Juan Loco]

"there will be a few adjustments but nothing massive"

No numbers.

[ReddyMac]

"there will be a few adjustments but nothing massive"

No numbers.

Yes and I expect us to have a few signing being made before the Euros to get them cheap. Isn't that one of the objectives of Moneyball,get them before a major tournament/ never get players who perform well after a tournament?

[ReddyMac]

"1 or 2" is pure invention, Comolli never said it.

And you do not take Comolli's words literally anyways,for all we know we can sell Carroll and/or sign 4-5 players.

[Juan Loco]

I think Moneyball is one of those broad, all-encompassing things that actually means nothing.

Sign someone cheap? Moneyball.
Pay over the odds for short-term gain? Moneyball.
Sign someone left-field? Moneyball.
Pay a huge fee for a player of international reknown, just for the shirt sales? Let's call it Moneyball.

[armchair-fan]

I think Moneyball is one of those broad, all-encompassing things that actually means nothing.

Sign someone cheap? Moneyball.
Pay over the odds for short-term gain? Moneyball.
Sign someone left-field? Moneyball.
Pay a huge fee for a player of international reknown, just for the shirt sales? Let's call it Moneyball.

Comolli is hunched over a spreadsheet right now, number crunching OPTA stats, along with that lad from 'Knocked Up'

[ReddyMac]

Comolli is hunched over a spreadsheet right now, number crunching OPTA stats, along with that lad from 'Knocked Up'

you mean the guy from Superbad.

[Suareznumber7]

you mean the guy from Superbad.

The funny fat guy

[LondonRedMan]

Am I the only one coming on this thread expecting a big name signing :-)

No, I too am expecting a big name. I think before and during the transfer window it is all cloak and dagger stuff to keep other clubs from preempting and ruining deals.

[ReddyMac]

I think Moneyball is one of those broad, all-encompassing things that actually means nothing.

Sign someone cheap? Moneyball.
Pay over the odds for short-term gain? Moneyball.
Sign someone left-field? Moneyball.
Pay a huge fee for a player of international reknown, just for the shirt sales? Let's call it Moneyball.

I agree, did Comolli or even Henry for that matter ever mention Moneyball in relation to LFC?

I think the media spurned this theory.

[Nessy76]

I think Moneyball is one of those broad, all-encompassing things that actually means nothing.

Sign someone cheap? Moneyball.
Pay over the odds for short-term gain? Moneyball.
Sign someone left-field? Moneyball.
Pay a huge fee for a player of international reknown, just for the shirt sales? Let's call it Moneyball.

That's how it's being used here. No-one connected to Liverpool Football Club has ever claimed that a "Moneyball" approach would be used.

Just like Comolli never said "1 or 2 adjustments"... 

[liverpaulhowes]

No, I too am expecting a big name. I think before and during the transfer window it is all cloak and dagger stuff to keep other clubs from preempting and ruining deals.

Most clubs know each others business, doesnt matter if its reported or not. All this talk about Commoli playing stuff down to keep prices down and not alert others to our targets is crap. All the scouts sit together & they all talk for a start.

[Red Cez]

The funny fat guy

This guy?

[ReddyMac]

Just read this stat this morning that tomorrow's game would be Dalglish's 60th game in charge since he took over last year.

In Past 59 matches played so far:W30 D15 L14.

[fowler9_god]

Underpromise and overdeliver

[Il Capitano]

I agree, did Comolli or even Henry for that matter ever mention Moneyball in relation to LFC?

I think the media spurned this theory.

I don't think it's any coincidence that Downing, Adam and Henderson were high on the 'chances created' statistics table in the league last season - or that we appointed Damien Comolli to the role of Director of Football, who notoriously uses a heavily statistics-based approach to working out the approximate value of a player.

I see Fenway's purchase of Liverpool as an experiment of sorts - they are evidently looking to quantify football down to statistics and numbers, if they can, in order to gain a market advantage over other clubs and make our club more successful by comparison. Last Summer, they used 'chances created' as an indicator of an attacking player's value, and bought players which fulfilled that criteria.

The problem is, football is a variable-heavy sport. Unlike Baseball, which consists of a series of set-pieces, football is an open and very unpredictable game - the equivalent would be matches consisting of penalty shoot-outs, which would be statistically measurable in terms of goalkeepers that can save penalties well, and players that are good at scoring from them.

As it is, you need to build more of a model to use to analyse football. Aspects of the sport such as team attacking fluency, player positioning, composure in front of goal, patches of form, players on each other's wavelengths - how do you succeed in utilising statistics towards making these work? It's extremely complicated.

[Nessy76]

I don't think it's any coincidence that Downing, Adam and Henderson were high on the 'chances created' statistics table in the league last season - or that we appointed Damien Comolli to the role of Director of Football, who notoriously uses a heavily statistics-based approach to working out the approximate value of a player.

I see Fenway's purchase of Liverpool as an experiment of sorts - they are evidently looking to quantify football down to statistics and numbers, if they can, in order to gain a market advantage over other clubs and make our club more successful by comparison. Last Summer, they used 'chances created' as an indicator of an attacking player's value, and bought players which fulfilled that criteria.

The problem is, football is a variable-heavy sport. Unlike Baseball, which consists of a series of set-pieces, football is an open and very unpredictable game - the equivalent would be matches consisting of penalty shoot-outs, which would be statistically measurable in terms of goalkeepers that can save penalties well, and players that are good at scoring from them.

As it is, you need to build more of a model to use to analyse football. Aspects of the sport such as team attacking fluency, player positioning, composure in front of goal, patches of form, players on each other's wavelengths - how do you succeed in utilising statistics towards making these work? It's extremely complicated.

So complicated that you quickly find yourself in the territory of chaos theory, where tiny and immeasurable factors can have unpredictable large-scale influence. You need a fairly simple model if it's to be of any use, and the stats for that are probably not much more complex than the ones we're familiar with.

The "chances created" experiment has actually been something of a success, we've been creating a hell of a lot of chances all season. Logic would now suggest we find a striker with a good chance conversion rate, and we'll be well on our way.

[ReddyMac]

I don't think it's any coincidence that Downing, Adam and Henderson were high on the 'chances created' statistics table in the league last season - or that we appointed Damien Comolli to the role of Director of Football, who notoriously uses a heavily statistics-based approach to working out the approximate value of a player.

I see Fenway's purchase of Liverpool as an experiment of sorts - they are evidently looking to quantify football down to statistics and numbers, if they can, in order to gain a market advantage over other clubs and make our club more successful by comparison. Last Summer, they used 'chances created' as an indicator of an attacking player's value, and bought players which fulfilled that criteria.

The problem is, football is a variable-heavy sport. Unlike Baseball, which consists of a series of set-pieces, football is an open and very unpredictable game - the equivalent would be matches consisting of penalty shoot-outs, which would be statistically measurable in terms of goalkeepers that can save penalties well, and players that are good at scoring from them.

As it is, you need to build more of a model to use to analyse football. Aspects of the sport such as team attacking fluency, player positioning, composure in front of goal, patches of form, players on each other's wavelengths - how do you succeed in utilising statistics towards making these work? It's extremely complicated.

That's where maybe something went wrong. We did manage to get the players with the highest chance creation stats in the league but they did not really contribute to Dalglish's theory of Pass and Move bar Henderson maybe. Guess Dalglish was hoping that he would coach this theory into their game,but it hasn't worked out yet and this leads to us having no defined style of play yet. It will take time.

[NorthamptonKopite]

Fuckin' ell Commolli!

Sign somebody you knob!

[Channo]

Just read this stat this morning that tomorrow's game would be Dalglish's 60th game in charge since he took over last year.

In Past 59 matches played so far:W30 D15 L14.

I wonder how that compares with the first 60 matches of Houllier, Evans, Rafa, Roy as a win percentage.

Anyone any ideas?

[Mutton Geoff]

However creating chances have not been a problem so buying the guys with the highest stats for that has worked, taking the chances have been our only problem really, so now he should be looking at the highest stats for chances converted type of player that we can afford and maybe this will help all the providers get the recognition they might have got this season!

[Solomon Grundy]

This guy?

He said funny.

[Mutton Geoff]

I wonder how that compares with the first 60 matches of Houllier, Evans, Rafa, Roy as a win percentage.

Anyone any ideas?

google it.

[Hazell]

Weren't we under first 6 months of Kenny's return?

We had players more suited to that though. Obviously we weren't doing it all the time but it was a lot more apparent than it has been this season. We've got in more direct players like Adam, Downing and Carroll (who didn't play an awful for us last season) and as a result we haven't played the same type of football. Lucas' injury hasn't helped obviously but even then, I think the idea was to make us a more direct side anyway. I would have preferred we should have kept those types of players or at least got similar players in as we seem to be stuck in this halfway house about which way to play. There's obviously no right or wrong way to play but so far, we've not been successful in terms of the league. I doubt we'll see an overhaul this summer and hopefully we'll be a better side as the majority of the side would have been together for a season and I don't think the players coming in would be those 'wet dream' types either.

[Channo]

google it.

Easier said than done! Easy to find out their win ratio over their lifetime with the club, but for the first 60 games you'd pretty much have to go through each game at a time. Would need someone with more time than me.

Would be interesting to see though, because I bet Kenny compares favourably.

[Didi_ram]

Last year,our aim was squad depth.This year our aim has to be 1st eleven additions.Apart from Lucas,Gerrard and Suarez,three spots are up for grabs where we can add quality.Even if we buy players for two of those positions,and use Downing/Adam/Henderson/Carroll for the one remaining position,it will do.

[Il Capitano]

So complicated that you quickly find yourself in the territory of chaos theory, where tiny and immeasurable factors can have unpredictable large-scale influence. You need a fairly simple model if it's to be of any use, and the stats for that are probably not much more complex than the ones we're familiar with.

The "chances created" experiment has actually been something of a success, we've been creating a hell of a lot of chances all season. Logic would now suggest we find a striker with a good chance conversion rate, and we'll be well on our way.

True, though to me it raises another question: the validity of the 'chance created' stat itself. A lot of our chances are difficult ones to finish from: within the black-and-white criteria of what is a chance and what isn't a chance, there is the ambiguity of how easy or difficult the chance is to convert into a goal. When Downing spends ages deciding whether he wants to take the fullback on, then goes one way, then feigns back onto his other foot, then cuts back, then eventually crosses.. the chance becomes difficult to react to and score from, because Carroll loses the momentum of his initial run into the box and has to adjust direction and compete with the centre backs to get the header away. The chance goes down as a chance in the statistics, regardless of the quality of it, and simply increments a 'chance created' number - is this an accurate representation of reality?

[Rouge]

Exactly! Created chances, could mean any witless ball swung into the box, such a nothing stat!