Topic: Black Mirror Now on Netflix. Use spoiler tags.

[JerseyKloppite]

This is doing my head in, there's definitely a Red Dwarf episode like that but I can't for the life of me remember which one.

It's the one in Series 4 when they go to the Justice World.

[Nessy76]

remind me of the episode?  i can't recall that.

Yes, there's a machine that reads guilt and Rimmer is so loaded with it that it declares him responsible for the death of the crew, so Lister and Kryton have to prove that no-one would ever put a smeghead like Rimmer in a position of that much responsibility.

It's not particularly funny, like, but that's Red Dwarf for you.

[sideshowme]

Yes, there's a machine that reads guilt and Rimmer is so loaded with it that it declares him responsible for the death of the crew, so Lister and Kryton have to prove that no-one would ever put a smeghead like Rimmer in a position of that much responsibility.

It's not particularly funny, like, but that's Red Dwarf for you.

and with that, i'm away on a red dwarf marathon... 

(it's not quite the same as the idea suggested here, btw, but fairly close)

[Alan_X]

Isn't the point about the cookie being used to control the house is precisely because it understands exactly what the home owner wants, as is demonstrated by the choice of song to wake her. So in that respect I didn't think it was clunky

Exactly.

[Twelfth Man]

Isn't the point about the cookie being used to control the house is precisely because it understands exactly what the home owner wants, as is demonstrated by the choice of song to wake her. So in that respect I didn't think it was clunky

The weird thing for me, is that the cookie is about a real an avatar of the person being copied as possible. It is used to torture and extract a confession at the end. Would someone really create a copy of themselves, real in almost every way without having a corporeal existence, just to make the perfect coffee and toast in the morning for them? Would anyone create a copy of themselves only to torture them in this cookie purgatory? That part felt a bit odd. But perhaps she was a dimwit, and their are many dimwits out there with too much money and time to actually want such a thing. Slightly overkill but not to the extent where it made the programme less enjoyable or somehow not fitting together, it did.

[Alan_X]

The weird thing for me, is that the cookie is about a real an avatar of the person being copied as possible. It is used to torture and extract a confession at the end. Would someone really create a copy of themselves, real in almost every way without having a corporeal existence, just to make the perfect coffee and toast in the morning for them? Would anyone create a copy of themselves only to torture them in this cookie purgatory? That part felt a bit odd. But perhaps she was a dimwit, and their are many dimwits out there with too much money and time to actually want such a thing. Slightly overkill but not to the extent where it made the programme less enjoyable or somehow not fitting together, it did.

It's not an avatar though. An avatar is something that you are aware of and control. The key point is that the real person is completely unaware of the cookie. The two scenes that show that are when John Hamm is training the cookie and Oona Chaplin is in bed and completely unaware, then when they go into Rafe Spall's cell and tell him he's confessed - he is completely bemused.

The John Hamm character is important because he puts distance between the cookie and the real Oona Chaplin. From her point of view it's just a perfect iPhone, PA, operating system and Calendar. He is the slave master. You might as well ask whether it's likely that anyone would subject another (real) human being to subjugation and mistreatment just to make their tea and toast...

And that's why that second section is central to the story. Or rather, it is the story.

[sideshowme]

It's not an avatar though. An avatar is something that you are aware of and control. The key point is that the real person is completely unaware of the cookie. The two scenes that show that are when John Hamm is training the cookie and Oona Chaplin is in bed and completely unaware, then when they go into Rafe Spall's cell and tell him he's confessed - he is completely bemused.

The John Hamm character is important because he puts distance between the cookie and the real Oona Chaplin. From her point of view it's just a perfect iPhone, PA, operating system and Calendar. He is the slave master. You might as well ask whether it's likely that anyone would subject another (real) human being to subjugation and mistreatment just to make their tea and toast...

And that's why that second section is central to the story. Or rather, it is the story.

while oona chaplin clearly is unaware of the ongoing suffering, she was aware enough to request that a cookie be made in the first place for her own needs.  my initial reaction to that was: what a horrible thing to do.  an interesting angle on contemporary self-loathing there as well?

on reflection, though, it's an interesting question as to whether it's possible to empathise with code, or to imagine code suffering.  it's easy enough to say that what she chose was a horrible thing to do, but why should she give a second thought to the state of 'mind' of the inside of a (figurative) black box?

i still think there was a more elegant way to show this aspect than a household drudge though.

[Alan_X]

while oona chaplin clearly is unaware of the ongoing suffering, she was aware enough to request that a cookie be made in the first place for her own needs.  my initial reaction to that was: what a horrible thing to do.  an interesting angle on contemporary self-loathing there as well?

on reflection, though, it's an interesting question as to whether it's possible to empathise with code, or to imagine code suffering.  it's easy enough to say that what she chose was a horrible thing to do, but why should she give a second thought to the state of 'mind' of the inside of a (figurative) black box?

i still think there was a more elegant way to show this aspect than a household drudge though.

Your second paragraph is the important one. All that's been created is an electronic simulation and can that really be said to suffer? You may be right about there being a more elegant way but I can't think of one.

[sideshowme]

Your second paragraph is the important one. All that's been created is an electronic simulation and can that really be said to suffer?

well, it's the old AI problem about sentience, do androids dream of electric sheep etc.  if you refine a machine's capability to the point where it is able to experience human emotions as though it were human, where is the distinction?

if the cookie had been placed inside a humanoid robot, it would have elicited a different reaction from people, in the same way that if people had to spend a few days in the sweatshops that make their clothes, they would feel very differently about them.  the 'out of sight' argument regarding the acceptable face of contemporary slavery is one of brooker's concerns here, i reckon.

[Twelfth Man]

Thinking about avatar's and yes I agree this is not one, in that their is no need to 'tend' it as you do with such things in the gaming world, here I'm thinking of those Japanese games (with Mudkips and shit) and things like The Simpsons (video game). These things are so popular (I'm not a fan but know of them), because people end up identifying so strongly with the avatar, characters that they have to feed etc. Here the cookie is a pretty life-like simulation, that is autonomous, after the training as Alan_F pointed out and this puts distance between the simulation and Oona Chaplin but she was aware that a copy of her of sorts was being created to make a smart appliance app (something that is already here, you can programme a lot of the stuff they did in the show, with smart appliances). So for Oona Chaplin there was zero empathy with something even more lifelike than the stuff video games hooks millions of people on. For most of us, if we had a simulation of a copy of ourselves trapped in some cookie, we'd be like hey dude how you doing in there, can I put the Liverpool match on for you? get you some virtual beer? how about some virtual babes and cocaine etc..? You would, like in the gaming world try and make life as great as you possibly could for the almost identical copy of essentially yourself. Of course a lot of people play things like The Simpsons just to get a joy out fucking things up...

I don't think it is that big of a deal, the show was still great, everything fitted together and when you are working at the level of ideas like Brooker is, you allow him a little suspension of disbelief on the part of the viewer.

[Twelfth Man]

well, it's the old AI problem about sentience, do androids dream of electric sheep etc.  if you refine a machine's capability to the point where it is able to experience human emotions as though it were human, where is the distinction?

if the cookie had been placed inside a humanoid robot, it would have elicited a different reaction from people, in the same way that if people had to spend a few days in the sweatshops that make their clothes, they would feel very differently about them.  the 'out of sight' argument regarding the acceptable face of contemporary slavery is one of brooker's concerns here, i reckon.

Very good point, and something I did not get from the show.

[Alan_X]

well, it's the old AI problem about sentience, do androids dream of electric sheep etc.  if you refine a machine's capability to the point where it is able to experience human emotions as though it were human, where is the distinction?

if the cookie had been placed inside a humanoid robot, it would have elicited a different reaction from people, in the same way that if people had to spend a few days in the sweatshops that make their clothes, they would feel very differently about them.  the 'out of sight' argument regarding the acceptable face of contemporary slavery is one of brooker's concerns here, i reckon.

Agree with all of that.

[Brian Blessed]

Thinking about avatar's and yes I agree this is not one, in that their is no need to 'tend' it as you do with such things in the gaming world, here I'm thinking of those Japanese games (with Mudkips and shit) and things like The Simpsons (video game). These things are so popular (I'm not a fan but know of them), because people end up identifying so strongly with the avatar, characters that they have to feed etc. Here the cookie is a pretty life-like simulation, that is autonomous, after the training as Alan_F pointed out and this puts distance between the simulation and Oona Chaplin but she was aware that a copy of her of sorts was being created to make a smart appliance app (something that is already here, you can programme a lot of the stuff they did in the show, with smart appliances). So for Oona Chaplin there was zero empathy with something even more lifelike than the stuff video games hooks millions of people on. For most of us, if we had a simulation of a copy of ourselves trapped in some cookie, we'd be like hey dude how you doing in there, can I put the Liverpool match on for you? get you some virtual beer? how about some virtual babes and cocaine etc..? You would, like in the gaming world try and make life as great as you possibly could for the almost identical copy of essentially yourself. Of course a lot of people play things like The Simpsons just to get a joy out fucking things up...

I don't think it is that big of a deal, the show was still great, everything fitted together and when you are working at the level of ideas like Brooker is, you allow him a little suspension of disbelief on the part of the viewer.

i don't even think it's at the level of an avatar. She never interacts with it. The sales pitch to rich people is probably something like, "we tap into your brain for a week, and then a programme is created to fully autonomise yor home, from gently waking you up just the way you like, to warming the floors to your exact desire". The visual representation was there for the viewer as much as anything.

Of course I'd never get one, the lazy c*nt wouldn't be worth the cost.

[Alan_X]

i don't even think it's at the level of an avatar. She never interacts with it. The sales pitch to rich people is probably something like, "we tap into your brain for a week, and then a programme is created to fully autonomise yor home, from gently waking you up just the way you like, to warming the floors to your exact desire". The visual representation was there for the viewer as much as anything.

Of course I'd never get one, the lazy c*nt wouldn't be worth the cost.

Hamm says that the 'body' is only there to help the cookie. And as you say it helps the viewer and provides the structure on which to hang the frame narrative.

 

[Twelfth Man]

The thing is, the simulation can feel pain, boredom, etc., all the emotions that humans can feel. You turn that time dial, and they go out of their mind with boredom to the point that they are willing to become slaves or confess. So the cookie is a little bit more than a mere app in that it can feel human emotions and are pretty much independent, can think for themselves, have to be trained/tricked into doing things. As sideshowme pointed out it is close to Philip K. Dick's replicants, they might exist in a virtual simulation but at what point do they cross over to something just as human as the thing they represent? Apart from lacking a physical body, they are about as close as you can get to the humans they are a copy of.

[gazzalfc]

Charlie Brooker to team up with Netflix for the next series.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/09/08/rejoice-netflix-to-produce-new-episodes-of-black-mirror?utm_content=bufferb0f13&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[JerseyKloppite]

Great news!

[matlfc]

Brilliant

[Yiannis]

Soooo....Black Mirror got it almost right. It's 1st episode I mean. #piggate

[planet-terror]

brooker denies it all,,uncanny though,.and i still havent watched the xmas special yet,shame on me

[gazzalfc]

If Channel 4 had any balls they should clear out their evening schedule and show it at least once this week

[Ray K]

Charlie Brooker to team up with Netflix for the next series.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/09/08/rejoice-netflix-to-produce-new-episodes-of-black-mirror?utm_content=bufferb0f13&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Netflix confirms deal with Charlie and co. for a 12-episode third season.
However the press release states that it's being broadcast on Netflix internationally, with UK/Ireland details still to be confirmed.

[Fitzy.]

Netflix confirms deal with Charlie and co. for a 12-episode third season.
However the press release states that it's being broadcast on Netflix internationally, with UK/Ireland details still to be confirmed.

12 episodes? That's some scope to be creative within. Hope the quality isn't compromised.

[Yiannis]

Watched yesterday the White Bear episode. I found it brilliant.

[Craig S]

Season 3 is released on Netflix on the 21st. 6 episodes.

The trailer looks brilliant
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/I-vAp9n8rQc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/I-vAp9n8rQc</a>

[Brian Blessed]

Brilliant. Wiki has all the titles up, and has Brooker with a writing credit for each episode.

[Betty Blue]

Looks great! Can't wait for this.

Anyone know who this actor is? She looks really familiar, but I can't find a credit for her yet.

[UntouchableLuis]

Can't wait - powerful television.

[Brian Blessed]

Looks great! Can't wait for this.

Anyone know who this actor is? She looks really familiar, but I can't find a credit for her yet.

Is this her?

https://www.google.com/search?q=Hannah+John-Kamen&espv=2&biw=1360&bih=674&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiosdue_MjPAhXLWx4KHQcdCY0Q_AUIBigB

She seems the most likely of the cast listed here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Black_Mirror_episodes#Series_3_.282016.29

[CrasherKid79]

Looks great! Can't wait for this.

Anyone know who this actor is? She looks really familiar, but I can't find a credit for her yet.

Looks like Amy Smart

[Narwin Dunez]

Can't wait!

Slightly worried that I'll smash them all in one go.

Easily some of the best, if not the best, British made fiction TV I've ever seen.

[DrTobiasFunke]

So it's 6 episodes rather than the 12 originally reported?

Either way, can't wait! Looks like a great cast too.

[gazzalfc]

So it's 6 episodes rather than the 12 originally reported?

Either way, can't wait! Looks like a great cast too.

Its a 2 seasons of 6 episodes deal

[Kashinoda]

Will be impossible not to binge this Damn you Netflix

[DrTobiasFunke]

Its a 2 seasons of 6 episodes deal

Ah, ok. That's probably better, Brooker seems to write most of it himself so keeping such high quality for a 12 episode series might have been difficult.

In saying that, he has a couple of co-writers for the first episode of the new season - Mike Schur and Rashida Jones. Seems strange as they're usually involved in far more light-hearted shows but could be interesting.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Ot's on Netflix now ... and I just finished watching S1+2 and the xmas special last night

[Brian Blessed]

I watched the first one. Again it's the sort of thing you could see happening in the not too distant future, which is why the premise is so good. The only criticism I would have is that once they laid out the framework of the world in the first 10-15 minutes, it didn't go anywhere you wouldn't expect.

[Narwin Dunez]

We should agree on a spoiler schedule haha
 No spoilers for ep one until 28 Oct, ep 2 until 4 Nov as if it were on weekly!

[Igor Tripod Biscan]

ITS SERIES NOT SEASON

I'm a pedantic asshole who prefers not to use American nomenclature ..I don't say Creg, Gram or elevator either

FFS

COME ON SCOUSERS

[Henry Gale]

ITS SERIES NOT SEASON

I'm a pedantic asshole who prefers not to use American nomenclature ..I don't say Creg, Gram or elevator either

FFS

COME ON SCOUSERS

You can say what you please but if people prefer season than series there's not a lot you can do.

Throwing your toys out the pram won't make a difference.

Not started season 3 yet I will once the kids are in bed.