Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire

[jooneyisdagod]

I thought that at the beginning but after five books I'm rooting for him. 

GRRM is very good at turning your opinions of characters completely around. Same thing has happened with Jamie.

Indeed.  Soon after he became a point of view character I started to see things from a different angle and worked out that Jamie most of all was put in the damned if he did and damned if he didn't positions more than most.  I haven't read the fifth book yet but I have to say I never despised Jamie as much as Cersei even in books one and two.  For some reason, I felt that he might be an arrogant bastard but at least he had the skill to back it up.  Similar to the Knight of Flowers in that respect I suppose.  Never the most modest but he could clearly back it up.  Interested to see what happens with him.  His character seemed to be taking a turn towards prominence before it was kinda cut short in book 4.

[Malaysian Kopite]

I thought that at the beginning but after five books I'm rooting for him. 

More pity than admiration though I think?

[Mr Dilkington]

I always associate Theon with Pete Campbell from MadMen. Both have done pretty horrendous things, but in the end I think they're both just little boys trying oh so hard to be men in a world full of proper men.

FWIW, I thought the best stuff in ADWD usually involved Theon.

[NorthamptonKopite]

I am struggling with adwd part 1 to be honest. Too many characters. It's hard to visualise or even know who half the people are. Love the Griff and young Griff stuff though. Adds another twist to this already twist filled story.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

Indeed.  Soon after he became a point of view character I started to see things from a different angle and worked out that Jamie most of all was put in the damned if he did and damned if he didn't positions more than most.  I haven't read the fifth book yet but I have to say I never despised Jamie as much as Cersei even in books one and two.  For some reason, I felt that he might be an arrogant bastard but at least he had the skill to back it up.  Similar to the Knight of Flowers in that respect I suppose.  Never the most modest but he could clearly back it up.  Interested to see what happens with him.  His character seemed to be taking a turn towards prominence before it was kinda cut short in book 4.

Jamie is a flash, dishonourable, arrogant, sister fucking, child defenestrator for the first part of the series (and a great deconstruction of the noble knight trope) but what he goes through with Brienne and once we get his viewpoint it reveals so much about him and his motivations. He genuinely learns the error of his ways and wants to be honourable and do good, making up for his past. I think deep down he was always a good person (he constantly made his disgust known about King Aerys general evilness and he actually killed him for a just reason) but the king slaying and Cersei's manipulations got to him

More pity than admiration though I think?

Yeah, pity more than anything really. Having him constantly humiliated and tortured by the only character who is more cuntish than Joffrey will do that I suppose.

I always associate Theon with Pete Campbell from MadMen. Both have done pretty horrendous things, but in the end I think they're both just little boys trying oh so hard to be men in a world full of proper men.

FWIW, I thought the best stuff in ADWD usually involved Theon.

That's a great comparison. Theon comes across as pathetic more than bad. He is so desperate to impress and prove himself that it leads him to do bad things, he is very immature too. He also has awful things happen to him that forces him to reevaluate himself.

I think the TV show portrayal of him has added even more to him, he was arguably the highlight of season 2 in terms of character work.

[jooneyisdagod]

Jamie is a flash, dishonourable, arrogant, sister fucking, child defenestrator for the first part of the series (and a great deconstruction of the noble knight trope) but what he goes through with Brienne and once we get his viewpoint it reveals so much about him and his motivations. He genuinely learns the error of his ways and wants to be honourable and do good, making up for his past. I think deep down he was always a good person (he constantly made his disgust known about King Aerys general evilness and he actually killed him for a just reason) but the king slaying and Cersei's manipulations got to him

All the things he did I started to realise he did out of love for Cersei which right or wrong was his primary motivation to do the things he did.  From pushing Bran off the window to numerous other things.  And you are right, I think he's not a bad person at all.  He starts to realise how he was manipulated by Cersei more and more as the series goes on and I think he'll be the one to kill Cersei when he hears of another major manipulation he was subject to that we haven't read about yet.  Last bit is just my guess I don't know if it'll work out that way.  He is the valonqar IMO.

[Malaysian Kopite]

"There are no men like me. Only me."

[Draex]

All the things he did I started to realise he did out of love for Cersei which right or wrong was his primary motivation to do the things he did.  From pushing Bran off the window to numerous other things.  And you are right, I think he's not a bad person at all.  He starts to realise how he was manipulated by Cersei more and more as the series goes on and I think he'll be the one to kill Cersei when he hears of another major manipulation he was subject to that we haven't read about yet.  Last bit is just my guess I don't know if it'll work out that way.  He is the valonqar IMO.

We've all been manipulted by a woman before! Jaime certainly is leading to an exciting end, will he turn full circle and redeem himself? Or will he fall at the last, twisted by his sister once more?

[jooneyisdagod]

We've all been manipulted by a woman before! Jaime certainly is leading to an exciting end, will he turn full circle and redeem himself? Or will he fall at the last, twisted by his sister once more?

I reckon he'll redeem himself and die for it.  Think he'll be the white knight to Tyrion's dark knight. 

[Redcap]

I reckon he'll redeem himself and die for it.  Think he'll be the white knight to Tyrion's dark knight. 

Eh? Tyrion's dark knight?

Anywho you guys all seem to be pretty certain

Spoiler

that he'll survive his coming encounter with Lady Stoneheart

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[jooneyisdagod]

Eh? Tyrion's dark knight?

Anywho you guys all seem to be pretty certain

Spoiler

that he'll survive his coming encounter with Lady Stoneheart

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Was referring to his role in the Blackwater bay.  He pretty much won them the war but got no credit for it and the people hated him for it. 

Anyway, I am in no way sure at all as to what will happen. 

Spoiler

And if he does meet Lady Stoneheart, I hope he slits her throat.  Wait that doesn't work.  I hope he burns her after doing that so she doesn't come back.

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[Malaysian Kopite]

Anywho you guys all seem to be pretty certain

Spoiler

that he'll survive his coming encounter with Lady Stoneheart

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Spoiler

I'm not. Was already half mourning when he followed Brienne. But I don't think Brienne who would rather be hanged(and have Pod hanged as well) then attempt to lure Jaime to his death would suddenly have a change of heart.

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[Redcap]

Spoiler

I'm not. Was already half mourning when he followed Brienne. But I don't think Brienne who would rather be hanged(and have Pod hanged as well) then attempt to lure Jaime to his death would suddenly have a change of heart.

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Here's a question to ponder

Spoiler

Have any obvious, between-chapter cliffhangers so far actually led to the death of any major characters?

I think the answer is actually no, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Let's look at the deaths first.

Ned- not a cliffhanger, was coming from a mile away.

Quentyn Martell- the same.

Robb- was a surprise, but there wasn't an inter-chapter cliffhanger. Ditto Renly

By contrast- Theon in ACoK, Arya in ASoS (axe to the head), Arya again (with the blindness in AFfC), Jaime at the end of ACoK (hand me my sword). By my reckoning, every time GRRM has left a major character's life in the balance at the conclusion of a chapter, they've survived.

To add to that, Bran in Bran II from AGoT- chapter ends with his being pushed out of the tower.

Can anyone think of any examples to the contrary?

Obviously regardless this doesn't bestow safety upon any of our favourite characters, but I think at the very least we can be relatively assured that they will not be perishing off-screen.

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[Malaysian Kopite]

Here's a question to ponder

Spoiler

Have any obvious, between-chapter cliffhangers so far actually led to the death of any major characters?

I think the answer is actually no, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Let's look at the deaths first.

Ned- not a cliffhanger, was coming from a mile away.

Quentyn Martell- the same.

Robb- was a surprise, but there wasn't an inter-chapter cliffhanger. Ditto Renly

By contrast- Theon in ACoK, Arya in ASoS (axe to the head), Arya again (with the blindness in AFfC), Jaime at the end of ACoK (hand me my sword). By my reckoning, every time GRRM has left a major character's life in the balance at the conclusion of a chapter, they've survived.

To add to that, Bran in Bran II from AGoT- chapter ends with his being pushed out of the tower.

Can anyone think of any examples to the contrary?

Obviously regardless this doesn't bestow safety upon any of our favourite characters, but I think at the very least we can be relatively assured that they will not be perishing off-screen.

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Spoiler

Interesting take that. Quentyn is the only character who's death I didn't expect.Imagine the clusterfuck had he survived though. I wouldn't call Robb's death a surprise because in ACoK, Theon dreams that he dines with the dead(Ned's there headless, Robert's gutted) and then Robb walks in with a hundred cuts on his body.That lends more credence to your theory.

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[Redcap]

Spoiler

Interesting take that. Quentyn is the only character who's death I didn't expect.Imagine the clusterfuck had he survived though. I wouldn't call Robb's death a surprise because in ACoK, Theon dreams that he dines with the dead(Ned's there headless, Robert's gutted) and then Robb walks in with a hundred cuts on his body.That lends more credence to your theory.

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Yeah.. I should have said "prophecies aside."

I guess it was just a surprise for me because my first read through I went a million miles an hour and missed most of the finer details.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Yeah.. I should have said "prophecies aside."

I guess it was just a surprise for me because my first read through I went a million miles an hour and missed most of the finer details.

I didn't notice it the first time either.

[Draex]

I reckon he'll redeem himself and die for it.  Think he'll be the white knight to Tyrion's dark knight.

Tyrion is certainly not a dark knight (unless you mean as copy of Batman style) he is actually not evil, he has had to endure so much and actually the anti-hero of it all.

[longball]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/

Lost eight hours on that site yesterday. A lot of the theories are clearly bonkers and proof that you can find meaning in anything if you look hard enough. But still, lots of good reading.

Not a lot of love for the Greyjoys and the Iron islanders here I see, whilst I don't like many of them, I do love reading about them, and their chapters in general.

[jooneyisdagod]

Tyrion is certainly not a dark knight (unless you mean as copy of Batman style) he is actually not evil, he has had to endure so much and actually the anti-hero of it all.

I was mate.  I was being a bit cheeky given how Harvey Dent is Gotham's white knight and Jamie is a white knight himself for altogether different reasons as they were but yeah it was certainly a Batman parallel I was drawing.

[mBake_LFC]

Just finished AFFC.  While not my favorite of the series, still a very entertaining book with much needed build up.  Some great parts with Brienne and Jaime.  Cersei just makes you hate her more and more each chapter..what an evil bitch. 

Love what Jaime does with her cry for help at the end...

[Malaysian Kopite]

New Winds of Winter preview chapter!

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

[Redcap]

Awesome cheers mate. Probably too much to hope for a release this year but hopefully next year will be the year.

[Cochise]

Just finished the ADwD

Spoiler

fuck me, can't believe what happened to Jon. Proper gutted, really hope he survives. Also is everyone else thinking that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegars son? Melisandre keeps hinting that Jon has kings blood, does she mean Targaryen blood? Sorry if this is all common speculation, like I've said I e just today finished the latest book!

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[Malaysian Kopite]

Just finished the ADwD

Spoiler

fuck me, can't believe what happened to Jon. Proper gutted, really hope he survives. Also is everyone else thinking that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegars son? Melisandre keeps hinting that Jon has kings blood, does she mean Targaryen blood? Sorry if this is all common speculation, like I've said I e just today finished the latest book!

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Spoiler

Its an extremely popular theory and we'll wait and see if its true. I think when Melisandre says he has kings blood though, she is refering to the fact that his 'supposed' father Ned is descended from the Kings of Winter/Kings of the North.

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[Cochise]

There's so much to cover in the next books!

Spoiler

What the hell happened in Oldtown with the trainee maesters (I presume) at the begining of the 4th book was it? The one who was swallowed up by the ground? I think Randal Tarly will have a big part in the upcoming books too.

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[Redcap]

There's so much to cover in the next books!

Spoiler

What the hell happened in Oldtown with the trainee maesters (I presume) at the begining of the 4th book was it? The one who was swallowed up by the ground? I think Randal Tarly will have a big part in the upcoming books too.

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Spoiler

Jaqen H'ghar killed him and is now wearing his face. Not sure what he's doing there though.

I doubt Randal Tarly will be playing that major a role, aside from by default as one of the major generals of The Reach. Mostly because as you said, there's already a lot to cover in the next few books and there's not too much point in increasing their scope still more with this guy.

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[Red Viper]

Spoiler

Jaqen H'ghar killed him and is now wearing his face. Not sure what he's doing there though.

I doubt Randal Tarly will be playing that major a role, aside from by default as one of the major generals of The Reach. Mostly because as you said, there's already a lot to cover in the next few books and there's not too much point in increasing their scope still more with this guy.

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Spoiler

How do we know it was Jaqen H'ghar?

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[Malaysian Kopite]

Spoiler

How do we know it was Jaqen H'ghar?

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Spoiler

We know he's a faceless man but yeah that's all we got.

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[Cochise]

Spoiler

Poor Bran, breaks his back then is supposedly going to spend the rest of his life as a replacement for Brynden the 3 eyed-crow!

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[jooneyisdagod]

Spoiler

Poor Bran, breaks his back then is supposedly going to spend the rest of his life as a replacement for Brynden the 3 eyed-crow!

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Spoiler

I know.  Poor sod is told he can fly only to find out that he has to become a part of a tree and he had to go all the way beyond the wall for it as well.  Total shite.

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[Cochise]

Spoiler

I know.  Poor sod is told he can fly only to find out that he has to become a part of a tree and he had to go all the way beyond the wall for it as well.  Total shite.

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Spoiler

He (Bran) didn't seem to keen on the idea so I do expect another major twist in his story. Hope we see more of The Blackfish in the next book, I think he'll probably end up joining The Brotherhood without Banners.

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[mBake_LFC]

Don't know how to do a "spoiler", so will try and say this without ruining anyone's reading...

I am about 400 pages in on ADWD..and for the life of me I can't remember how... "Reek" was captured by Ramsay.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Spoiler

At the end of ACOK, Reek(Ramsay Snow) leads a small force which routs a much larger army lead by Ser Rodrik. Ramsay also kills Ser Rodrik in battle. Theon allowed Ramsay to enter Winterfell, believing that he had come to aid Theon. Ramsay's force then captured Theon, killed the rest of the Ironborn and most of the people of Winterfell and sacked the city.We hear nothing more of Theon until ADWD.

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[Draex]

Spoiler

At the end of ACOK, Reek(Ramsay Snow) leads a small force which routs a much larger army lead by Ser Rodrik. Ramsay also kills Ser Rodrik in battle. Theon allowed Ramsay to enter Winterfell, believing that he had come to aid Theon. Ramsay's force then captured Theon, killed the rest of the Ironborn and most of the people of Winterfell and sacked the city.We hear nothing more of Theon until ADWD.

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Spoiler

Reek is also Theon - after Ramsay takes Winterfell he forces Theon to take over from his old serving man who was killed (called Reek)

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[mBake_LFC]

Spoiler

At the end of ACOK, Reek(Ramsay Snow) leads a small force which routs a much larger army lead by Ser Rodrik. Ramsay also kills Ser Rodrik in battle. Theon allowed Ramsay to enter Winterfell, believing that he had come to aid Theon. Ramsay's force then captured Theon, killed the rest of the Ironborn and most of the people of Winterfell and sacked the city.We hear nothing more of Theon until ADWD.

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Ahh..... Now I remember.  Thank you sir. 

Spoiler

I think after reading ACOK a while back, and then watching the show on HBO, there are some pretty significant differences in the plot at that point.  From what I remember in the show, Theon kills Ser Rodrik himself by trying to behead him which doesn't go as smoothly as he would of liked.  Also, Theon is put down by his own man after a motivating speech.

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[Finn Solomon]

Spoiler

How do we know it was Jaqen H'ghar?

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It is Jaqen because

Spoiler

the description of the person who pays Pate the pig boy for info (I think his black, curly hair is mentioned but I don't have my book with me) and later kills him matches exactly with the description of the face Arya saw when Jaqen transformed and left her. After Pate dies we see him again at the end of the book, so we know that it's Jaqen pretending to be him. Not sure what he's going to do, but I think he's going to kill all the Archmaesters because they're trying to prevent the return of the dragons. That would mean someone wants the dragons back, and are willing to pay a ton of gold for it, but I have no idea who.

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[Malaysian Kopite]

Doran Martell? Oldtown is probably also one of Dorne's greater threats.

[Redcap]

Doran Martell? Oldtown is probably also one of Dorne's greater threats.

Spoiler

He'd really have to have a great deal of foresight to make that move, given that it would have almost certainly have been made by the end of AGoT. It's a quality he clearly has in abundance, so it's possible, but I imagine just as likely it would have been Varys, who evidently already has contacts in the Free Cities to make it happen.

Supporting this theory would be the fact that Jaqen H'ghar started his journey in the novel in the black cells of The Red Keep, where he would have been able to meet Varys. It's hard to say how Varys could have known where the Night's Watch was going though, and whether they would have been found by Lannister men.. and if Jaqen H'ghar would actually survive that encounter.

I do think Varys would be someone with a great deal of interest in dragons though. Whether he's a Targaryen loyalist or genuinely someone who values peace in the Seven Kingdoms, dragons could easily be the answer.

Of course this is all based on the assumptions that A. The Faceless Man is in Oldtown to kill an Archmaester or Archmaesters, B. They want to do it because Maesters hate dragons and C. That they actually have any power to stop the dragons.

In any case I suspect Sam's chapters in TWoW will tell us all we need to know.

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[Malaysian Kopite]

Spoiler

Varys was my second guess but he's a distant second as I believe he's nailed his colours to Aegon's mast. Of course Dany and Aegon could eventually become allies but I think Varys won't want any loose ends and fears that Dany would be a threat to Aegon especially with dragons(lets not forget he supported the decision to assassinate Dany).

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[Red Ant]

Hi, I'm currently about half way through book 4 so please don't reply with any spoilers as I've no idea what will happen but was just wondering what you guys thought of it?

After the amazing sequence of events in book 3, book 4 has become somewhat tedious and almost boring to read, I'm really having to really push myself through it.

I can't imagine this book would translate very well into a tv show as well as the previous 3 so how do you think it will be done?