Topic: Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel Partnership

[csgreen]

You can argue that a partnership is better than another partnership, that's fair enough but to say of a one off game that we would not have got a clean sheet if another defender had played is laughable.  You just don't know.  Nobody knows. 

It's utterly unknowable and hence an ineffably stupid thing to claim.

While I agree there's no way to know for certain whether we would have kept a clean sheet if Carra was involved, hopefully you agree that this absolutely does not mean that one is incapable of making an inference as to whether the observed result was better or worse than the expected result had Carra been involved and it's also not the case that the result provides no evidence supporting one or the other hypothesis. 

For instance, take all the games played by Carra this year (weighted by the similarity to game in question) multiplied by the goals allowed in those games to get the expected number of goals had Carra played (or if one wanted to be more ambitious, one could use all the goal chances allowed multiplied by the average probability across a larger sample that a chance will result in a goal - since "goals" is likely to be a more stochastic statistic than "chances").  Since that expected value is really just the mean of a distribution of possible values, this gives us a probability that the actual result was better than the expected result.  Obviously there's going to be some subjectivity in such a measure (i.e. - what games are more or less "close" to the current game) - so not everyone will come to the same conclusion, but that doesn't mean that attempting to come to a conclusion is a stupid endeavor.   

For me, when I go through it, I see us conceding in that game more often if Carra was playing than not (he's been done more than once by reasonably mediocre players this year, so I don't think it's super unlikely that he would have been done at least once by Odemwingie or Tchoyi).           

So - if your issue is with people using deterministic language when they should be using probabilistic language - then I agree - anyone who says that we definitely wouldn't have kept a clean sheet if Carra played/the only reason we kept a clean sheet is because he didn't play is indeed a bit ridiculous.  However, if your point is that we can't say at all whether the result was better than what we could have expected had Carra played, then I disagree. 
     

[blah]

All this talk of gluing players together got me thinking. Does fielding a set on conjoined twins count as one or two players? Would they each get their own kit/number? Perhaps THIS is the future.

[babraham]

Seems to be a disagreement on whether we played a higher line or not.

I made this post in the "Defensive line" thread after the game.

Really, really happy with today's back line. It's my first choice four at the back. Everyone was good but I was particularly pleased with Skrtel's performance!

I watched the line fairly closely (of course on tv you can only see so much, especially when the ball's in the other half) but I thought there was a noticeable difference in the first half. We didn't camp on the halfway line or anything but we were definitely higher up. I thought this was illustrated well by how Reina had to come out the box to claim the ball a few times or a defender would shield the ball from a striker to allow the ball to get into the box so Reina could pick it up.

At 2-0 I thought we reverted back to the deeper line and decided to play on the counter a bit more. I thought this coincided with them looking a bit more dangerous but not overly so. We were still plenty in control of things.

I thought Carroll played pretty well and I wander how much of this was due to the higher line and midfield subsequently being closer to him?

Hope to see this back four start the next game.

I think heat maps and average player position are inaccurate since when we have the ball, we'll sit deeper and play it out. Also corners or forward runs would affect an average position.

My only proof is what I saw. Throughout the first half I was constantly pointing out to my family how much higher the line was. As I said in my quote, it definitely wasn't super high near the halfway line but we were maybe 10-15 yards further forward? I was looking at the distance between the line and the box. In the first half there was absolutely a greater distance than there has been in the other games.

To say we played a high line would be inaccurate. I would say we played an average line as opposed to our usual deep line.

As I said, in the second half we went back to the deep line to conserve the lead. Perhaps this is why some didn't see a difference? Also this would affect heat maps/average position which obviously are measured over an entire game.

EDIT: Other indicators are the unusual amount of times we caught them offside (unusual for us at least ) and the number of interceptions our CBs made higher up the pitch.

[RedinExile]

Seems to be a disagreement on whether we played a higher line or not.

I made this post in the "Defensive line" thread after the game.
I think heat maps and average player position are inaccurate since when we have the ball, we'll sit deeper and play it out. Also corners or forward runs would affect an average position.

My only proof is what I saw. Throughout the first half I was constantly pointing out to my family how much higher the line was. As I said in my quote, it definitely wasn't super high near the halfway line but we were maybe 10-15 yards further forward? I was looking at the distance between the line and the box. In the first half there was absolutely a greater distance than there has been in the other games.

To say we played a high line would be inaccurate. I would say we played an average line as opposed to our usual deep line.

As I said, in the second half we went back to the deep line to conserve the lead. Perhaps this is why some didn't see a difference? Also this would affect heat maps/average position which obviously are measured over an entire game.

EDIT: Other indicators are the unusual amount of times we caught them offside (unusual for us at least ) and the number of interceptions our CBs made higher up the pitch.

Interesting, surely it can't be that hard to establish if we played deep when we didn't need to, held a line or we didn't, or stroked the ball around collecting deep or tended to clear in a panic?

[Discipline]

Daniel Agger won 90 per cent of his 'duels' - more than any of his teammates.

All our defenders made between 48 and 54 passes. Martin Skrtel was the most accurate with 91.7 per cent finding its target. The Slovak also played the highest percentage of long passes among his rearguard colleagues.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/wba-0-2-lfc-the-opta-stats

[Gifted Right Foot]

Daniel Agger won 90 per cent of his 'duels' - more than any of his teammates.

All our defenders made between 48 and 54 passes. Martin Skrtel was the most accurate with 91.7 per cent finding its target. The Slovak also played the highest percentage of long passes among his rearguard colleagues.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/wba-0-2-lfc-the-opta-stats

haha you really are enjoying these opta stats aren't you mate  .  they are bloody empressive stats though, just shows dominant they really were. 

[Discipline]

haha you really are enjoying these opta stats aren't you mate  .  they are bloody empressive stats though, just shows dominant they really were.

Yes.

[new-red]

I watched the game again and the depth of the defensive line was completely dynamic. When we established possession in the final third Skrtel and Agger were definitely positioned close to the halfway line and Agger made a few key interceptions in this position that stopped counters and reignited our attack.

When they established position in our defensive third we held the line at the 18 yard box and we rarely pushed up until their attack was absolutely dead. There were numerous times where we forced them to play it backwards and we didn't move forward as a unit. Although, Lucas took it upon himself to close down the opposition persistently until they had to play it backwards or make a mistake. One instance in particular I remember where Lucas sprinted from CM to charge down a winger and he did so successfully and Agger astutely moved up into Defensive midfield to challenge the passing lanes that were vacated by Lucas and by covering for Lucas in that position we forced them to turn over possession.

I think Kenny and Clarke want them to employ a high line but during a game the circumstances affect to what extent that can be executed. We definitely played a high line when we could but certain periods of the game we had to retreat a bit.

Nevertheless, the bottom line is that we were impregnable in defense and potent in attack. That is what we want to be on a consistent basis and i am confident we will get there, just need time.

[kaz1983]

Thanks mate, it won't surprise you to read that two players I've a lot of time for are the two you mentioned. There are people who post that we shouldn't worry about a destroyer at home to 'lesser teams' and simply score more than the other team, and let them worry about us. I think with a destroyer though that this system in general means as a team you concede fewer chances and fewer goals, and therefore the confidence goes up. Perhaps our own goalscoring chances become at more of a premium, or maybe there are just less times the ball is blazed high and wide, as control becomes the name of the game rather than a pinball mulitball round.

Although as a spectacle 4-3 games leave you shattered and are wildly entertaining, I'm also drained at the end and thinking 'some of that was a fucking shambles but we got away with it'. I probably get more pleasure out of watching us slowly strangling opponents and hitting them with a clinical 2-0 win instead. Not as dramatic, but calmly reassuring and feels like less of a gamble - I wonder if the players themselves get that kind of belief too? Someone might say, 'but look at the home draws against park the bus teams'; to that I would say every system takes time to perfect and get the right personnel in all places, but we were very close a couple of seasons back. We didn't push on, thanks to you know who.

It will be very interesting to see what mould the current team will take, and if there will be shades of those Chelsea teams you mentioned and our recent controlling teams about it, albeit with better flair players than we could afford last time around.

But that's the thing, you should have to score 3 goals to win a match.. Rafa was bang on when he said that a 1-0 victory was a perfect result and he'd take it any day of the week, yes 3-2 wins are more entertaining but if your always conceding it just means that you put yourself in a situation where you must score more goals and it isn't a scoreline that breeds much confidence because your back four won't be confident being 1-0 with 20 minutes to go nor will your attack going into games because they will know that they need to score twice or possibly more. Personally I'd prefer to play a physical midfielder who be able to put himself about and win the ball back when we don't have it and when have the ball drop back and keep it tight in front of back four -to allow Lucas to push on whilst not leaving us exposed because of it.

To me that wouldn't make us more a defensive unit, well at least not to people who half a brain.

Also in regards to Chelsea defensively they relied heavily on Carvalho to be able to take the ball out of defense when they regain possession, like us when Agger plays and doesn't due to injury - both players are worth their weight in gold. Without Agger we are a completely different team, as has been said about 100 times. Also unlike Terry who is average on the ball or receiving it haha, Skrtel has shown that he is comfortable bring the ball out of defense. Over time I think those two could form a great partnership.

[ReeNah]

And there lies the biggest question. They can, if Agger doesn't snap again. If he does; for Skrtel it's back to partnering a player who's getting to the end of his career who has all the experience, yet the body won't do what the mind wants it to do or a another player; who has the age and the fitness to do the job, but lacks the experience.

Perhaps we can glue Carraghers experience into Coates? or just glue Agger properly? What ever it is, Liverpool Football Club needs better glue. Hopefully we can get some in January.

Glue, it's the future.

LOL! Can we 'like' or 'thank' posts on this forum?

[RedinExile]

But that's the thing, you should have to score 3 goals to win a match.. Rafa was bang on when he said that a 1-0 victory was a perfect result and he'd take it any day of the week, yes 3-2 wins are more entertaining but if your always conceding it just means that you put yourself in a situation where you must score more goals and it isn't a scoreline that breeds much confidence because your back four won't be confident being 1-0 with 20 minutes to go nor will your attack going into games because they will know that they need to score twice or possibly more. Personally I'd prefer to play a physical midfielder who be able to put himself about and win the ball back when we don't have it and when have the ball drop back and keep it tight in front of back four -to allow Lucas to push on whilst not leaving us exposed because of it.

To me that wouldn't make us more a defensive unit, well at least not to people who half a brain.

Also in regards to Chelsea defensively they relied heavily on Carvalho to be able to take the ball out of defense when they regain possession, like us when Agger plays and doesn't due to injury - both players are worth their weight in gold. Without Agger we are a completely different team, as has been said about 100 times. Also unlike Terry who is average on the ball or receiving it haha, Skrtel has shown that he is comfortable bring the ball out of defense. Over time I think those two could form a great partnership.

Absolutely mate, how I see it anyway!

[Matts]

Hmm I can't find an open Carragher topic (at work so can't really spend heaps o time looking). Seeing as this topic became a debate as to our central defensive partnership, I figure this is as good a place to post. When's he man back from injury? As much as people want to write him off, his experience is second to none, don't get me wrong, he pisses me off at times, but we all know he's been a slow starter over the last couple of seasons!! I think if Rafa and Kenny see him as a starter he must be showing something in training.

Never mind Physio room reckons by the 5th of November

[PJG]

In terms of meaningless accolades, for me Skrtel has been the player of the month

[NOTBORNIN1982]

In terms of meaningless accolades, for me Skrtel has been the player of the month

I would be very interested to hear your reasoning behind that pal. I can't see passed Suarez myself, who seems to be winning us games on his own.

[PJG]

I would be very interested to hear your reasoning behind that pal. I can't see passed Suarez myself, who seems to be winning us games on his own.

variation more than anything  I think Suarez will be happy enough with 9 out of 10 player of the month awards.   . 

[MassDriver]

Don't know if our defensive line has been higher without Carra or not , but our passing from the back has certainly been immaculate. It is a pleasure to see two Cbs who are comfortable on the ball and can actually play attacking passes(See Skrtel's pass for Suarez's fluffed chance for example).

[ThisIsMickey]

All this partnership need now is a chance to blossom. Whether the team is ready or not for post-carra life needs to be tested soon anyway. Based on Stoke and WBA, they'll do fine.

[Julio]

We're a better team without Carragher, it's simple.

Look at Ferguson, already talking about how Ferdinand - who is absolutely light-years ahead of Carra - isn't guaranteed his starting place any more.
No sentimentality. No such thing as a reputation. That's the way to run a team.

Agger and Skrtel, with a bit of Coates mixed in.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Kinell, so did or did we not play with a higher line?

[Bob Loblaw]

Kinell, so did or did we not play with a higher line?

When we had the ball, without it, we still retreated to the edge of our own penalty area before doing any real defending or putting any pressure on the ball.

[paulrazor]

id keep it for a while

wouldnt write carra off. his comeback to join these two against chelsea in february was sensational

[scatman]

We're a better team without Carragher, it's simple.

Look at Ferguson, already talking about how Ferdinand - who is absolutely light-years ahead of Carra - isn't guaranteed his starting place any more.
No sentimentality. No such thing as a reputation. That's the way to run a team.

Agger and Skrtel, with a bit of Coates mixed in.

Fergie's been doing that for years, thats why his team win shit.
we've stopped doing that for years, when we did, we won shit.

[BigAl24]

Please, please start on Saturday.

[Zaffarious]

When we had the ball, without it, we still retreated to the edge of our own penalty area before doing any real defending or putting any pressure on the ball.

this is exactly what i thought aswell. when we had the ball the team was happy to push up the pitch and reduce the distance between front 2 and the defence. when we didnt we dropped back and defender with 2 banks of 4 with suarez and carroll the outlet. one thing i felt we did in this game which i think will work vs the "weaker" teams is keeping 2 uptop and defending deeper as the opposition are so shit scared of suarez they keep 4 back to deal with 2. as a result its 8 vs 6 in our favour as it was most of the time at wba.

I really hope they get to start on saturday. i would be gutted if they didnt, plus i can see sinclair and dyer giving carra an awful time.

[babraham]

Kinell, so did or did we not play with a higher line?

In my opinion yes, until we were 2-0 up and then we sat deeper again (so second half really). Not very high but certainly higher.

I disagree with the posts above and think it was both with and without the ball although we would actually start the attack from the keeper deep and move the line forward as we passed it up. Then if the attack broke down, we would be in a relatively higher line.

They discussed this a bit on this week's Anfield Wrap podcast (featuring many of LFC's best journo's in case anyone is unfamiliar with it) and they agreed the line was higher. Also only one out of probably 7 or so people said they'd start Carra if fit.

Here's the Anfield Wrap thread if anyone's interested:
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=279444.msg9427975#msg9427975

Should take you to the link for episode 14, where Carra and the line is discussed (probably three quarters of the way through the podcast?).

[Suspect Package.]

I still think that with better management and a stable back line (i.e. not changing one or two of the four every game) it can perform much better than what we think.

I made this point back in January, but I think it stands more than ever.

               Reina

Johnson Skrtel Agger Enrique

Play the same back line every week and I think it'll perform much better than it's reputation. Consistency is hard to come by when you're constantly chopping and changing defenders. Of course, the problem is really whether Agger and Johnson can stay fit for extended periods of time.

[The China Fox]

Relevant to this thread, quoted from tomkins times

In the run-up to the West Brom game and the likely absence of Jamie Carragher, I looked into the record of Skrtel and Agger playing together in the Premier League. The results were promising, even if there was a relatively small sample of games, mainly from January 2011. Most noticeably they have never played as a partnership against “top 6” opposition.

The task was therefore to try and put this relatively small sample into context and compare with other centre back combinations in recent times. The most important job was to try and level the playing field to allow a genuine comparison. With this in mind, the scope of the analysis is:

• Premier League only from start of 2009/10 season to present
• Excluding games against “top 6” opponents i.e. City, United, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal
• Excluding games where Liverpool played three centre backs
• Excluding games where there was a red card before 60 minutes
• Excluding games where one of the centre backs has gone off injured before 60 minutes
• Excluding games where Liverpool started with a centre back or midfielder out of position at fullback e.g. Agger at left back, Carragher/Mascherano at right back

This left a sample of 55 games where there was a definite centre back pairing and two “proper” fullbacks.

In the tables below, green shading represents a figure that, on average, is good enough to win the title since English clubs have had four Champions League places. Yellow represents the average figure to qualify for the Champions League in the same period.

The first table is Clean Sheet%. Champions have typically got 18 clean sheets in this period (47% of league games) and CL qualifiers 16 (42%).

Here we see the top 3 rankings of Agger/Carra, Agger “plus one” and Agger/Skrtel
Carragher “plus one” is just about CL level while Skrtel ”plus one” is just below.

Skrtel/Carragher is the most played combination with 15 and clearly not good enough for the CL with just five clean sheets (and remember this excludes games vs the “top 6”). The figures for Kyriagkos are just too gruesome to look at!

Next up is Goals Against Per Game. Average title winning form is 0.68 and average CL qualification is 0.87:

The combinations/players are ranked in near identical order. Agger/Carragher and Agger “plus one” are still title level. Skrtel/Agger has potential to be but Skrtel/Carragher is again not good enough for CL qualification.

The final chart is how has the team has done in terms of results and Points Per Game:

The combinations/players are in the same order and the same shading. The only difference is that Skrtel/Carragher is just good enough to be considered top 4 form.

One other thing of note is the amount of times since 09/10 where Liverpool have had to go into a game without “proper fullbacks”. The poor injury records of Johnson, Aurelio and Kelly meant that of these 55 games in scope, 20 (36%) were played with a makeshift defence. What’s more, the Points Per Game is 1.89 when playing with “proper fullbacks” and just 1.5 without.

Conclusions

What started as an analysis of the record of Skrtel and Agger has once again proved the indisputable importance of the Dane to Liverpool FC. The analysis shows that he is capable of improving the defence and the results of the team to title-winning levels. If only his injury record could somehow be improved to get him to play more games.

All Liverpool fans know that Jamie Carragher is in the twilight of his first team career; 34 in January, he is in no way ‘finished’, but equally, isn’t quite what he was, and can’t go on forever. This analysis suggests that a season of Jamie Carragher would leave Champions League qualification on a knife-edge, although his partnership with Agger has proved fruitful. The analysis also leaves big questions over the long-term viability of Martin Skrtel as a centre back in a genuine Champions League level team. Depending on the management’s faith in Kelly, Wisdom and Wilson, a major centre back purchase could be on the agenda for one of the next two transfer windows.

As for the rest of the season, it’s clear that it should be AGGER PLUS ONE whenever he is fit. Skrtel is the man in possession and, in my opinion, the partnership now merits the chance to show what it can do in the “top 6″ matches too. One thing is clear though, unless Daniel Agger plays at least 50% of the remaining league games Liverpool could be missing out on the Champions League for a third successive season.

http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/11/case-for-the-defence/


I think he is inferring more than is possible for the limited data set but it's a good point for discussion. It comes with the rather weighty caveat that games vs the top 6 are not included; I was unaware that Skrtel-Agger has never faced a top 6 side, for instance. The partnership does deserve a chance to be tested in this way, considering our relative paucity of alternatives.
Agger is clearly our best centre back. Skrtel has been excellent recently, so deserves his place in the team, but I still harbour doubts about his game intelligence and decision making, and I agree with the analysis above that we could benefit from buying a top CB. But hopefully Skrtel-Agger will play against Chelsea or Man City and prove my fears wrong on the big stage.

[babraham]

Relevant to this thread, quoted from tomkins times

http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/11/case-for-the-defence/


I think he is inferring more than is possible for the limited data set but it's a good point for discussion. It comes with the rather weighty caveat that games vs the top 6 are not included; I was unaware that Skrtel-Agger has never faced a top 6 side, for instance. The partnership does deserve a chance to be tested in this way, considering our relative paucity of alternatives.
Agger is clearly our best centre back. Skrtel has been excellent recently, so deserves his place in the team, but I still harbour doubts about his game intelligence and decision making, and I agree with the analysis above that we could benefit from buying a top CB. But hopefully Skrtel-Agger will play against Chelsea or Man City and prove my fears wrong on the big stage.

Very interesting. Thanks for that.

I think most of us would agree that Agger's our best CB when fit. The stats absolutely back that up.

I have no doubt some will point to those stats as proof that Carra is still the best choice to partner Agger but I would argue that saying it shows Carra was the best choice, as in past tense.

The problem is those stats are accounting for a Carra more in his prime than now and an out of form Skrtel. Over the last few years, very few people would have started Skrtel over Carra and the stats confirm that to be wise. Now however, Carra has regressed and Skrtel is playing far better than in recent years. I think the stats are valid in judging Agger now as he's as good as he always was when fit but I don't think the stats are a good indicator for basing who is currently the best partner for Agger, simply because the form of Carra and Skrtel has gone in opposite directions since then.

Didn't think Soto's stats would be quite so horrible!

[No666]

Depending on the management’s faith in Kelly, Wisdom and Wilson, a major centre back purchase could be on the agenda for one of the next two transfer windows.

That ignores the centre back we just bought. The management thinking was surely that as Carragher slowly declined, Coates would slowly bed in. Unfortunately, Carragher's form hints at a faster decline than expected so that currently we're gambling on Agger's fitness to see us over that CL line. I suppose the obvious solution is retain Agger as quality, Coates as promise and Carragher as experience (and 'bona-fide local legend') and upgrade Skrtel in January. Unless, of course, he gets a chance to partner Agger in a run of games and dispel the doubts that surround him and which the stats above highlight. Somehow I think we'll see Carragher back in against Chelsea, though.

[Eeyore]

Personally the stats are very skewed by a couple of things Agger barely played at Centre back under Hodgson whereas Skrtel statistically was unfortunate enough to play every game under Hodgson.

The other thing that skews the stats is going back as far as 2009 in that time Carra has gone backwards at an alarming rate whilst Skrtel has improved and at 26/27 is coming into the best years of his career.

As for the top six thing Agger-Skrtel looked rock solid in Kenny's first game last season away to United in the Cup. Even with having to chase the game after a diabolical penalty decision they looked more than up to the job.

[Scaryscouse]

The only real problem I have with this partnership is Agger's fitness. I love the guy but we simply can't count on him week in week out. That said for the 15 to 20 games he is fit a season I'd start him every time.

[Dr Manhattan]

I don't have anything extra to add to the debate, but I will say this. It's quite a sight to see Occam's Razor brought up during an argument on whether Carragher should be in the side or not.

Terrific stuff.

[PIPA23]

The only real problem I have with this partnership is Agger's fitness. I love the guy but we simply can't count on him week in week out. That said for the 15 to 20 games he is fit a season I'd start him every time.

That´s why we bought Coates i guess...or wanted Phil Jones before.. But let´s hope Agger stayes 100% fit

[MassDriver]

That ignores the centre back we just bought. The management thinking was surely that as Carragher slowly declined, Coates would slowly bed in. Unfortunately, Carragher's form hints at a faster decline than expected so that currently we're gambling on Agger's fitness to see us over that CL line. I suppose the obvious solution is retain Agger as quality, Coates as promise and Carragher as experience (and 'bona-fide local legend') and upgrade Skrtel in January. Unless, of course, he gets a chance to partner Agger in a run of games and dispel the doubts that surround him and which the stats above highlight. Somehow I think we'll see Carragher back in against Chelsea, though.

The stats are bollocks. I could probably take those stats and the crap inferences drawn from it apart piece by piece but unfortunately I don't have the time for it. Maybe after 12th of November.

Skrtel is easily good enough for a top 4 team as has been proved in the past under Rafa and there is no reason he should be 'upgraded in Jan'.

I only hope that Martin and Agger get a chance to form a partnership but I am pessimistic. Kenny's recent statements on Carra have not been encouraging for the longevity of that partnership at all. Kenny's words make it sound like Carra is undroppable when fit. I hope I am wrong but I doubt it.

[gtazn]

Skrtel is easily good enough for a top 4 team as has been proved in the past under Rafa and there is no reason he should be 'upgraded in Jan'.

Completely agree.

To those who think we should upgrade on Skrtel, who can we realistically get that would be better?

[MiserableP15]

Gonna be interesting to see who starts on Saturday.

[Zelnaga]

I hope Kenny sticks with the Skrtel and Agger partnership. I doubt it though.

[tyrolean_red]

Completely agree.

To those who think we should upgrade on Skrtel, who can we realistically get that would be better?

Cahill? Lovren? But to be fair, I think we should go with Skrtel and Agger till the transfer Window opens. If would be over the moon if this partnership would work out. We would have a young partnership that could maybe last for years, a solid back up in Carra, a young promising lad in Coates and Kelly who maybe will/won't be a CB in the future and Wisdom coming through from the youth teams.

[scatman]

Hummels, would be the perfect centre back to get in. it won't happen, but it's wishful dreaming

[SpartanTree. No deccies or lights.]

Cahill? Lovren? But to be fair, I think we should go with Skrtel and Agger till the transfer Window opens. If would be over the moon if this partnership would work out. We would have a young partnership that could maybe last for years, a solid back up in Carra, a young promising lad in Coates and Kelly who maybe will/won't be a CB in the future and Wisdom coming through from the youth teams.

Not sure Cahill would be an upgrade on Skrtel. 
Skrtel/dAgger is the best pairing we have at centre back - compliment each other really well.