Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[mulhergremista]

Didn't Lucas support someone else before he supported us? If he even supports us at all, the fucking treacherous c*nt.

What??   am I being hooked, I hope I do, or there is somebody who really thinks it ? After reading the last pages hre nothing is impossible 

BTW, remember the Staffy Waffy? This sick man who wrote a lot of garbage against Lucas, not about his football, but personally?

I sent him some portion of his own medicine, risking being banned, but the outcome was:(that appeared when i made a search to see what happened with the twat)

Hold up!

Sorry, the profile you are trying to view has been suspended.

SO, THE MODS IN WITTER EARNS THEIR WAGES

[Sangria]

How clever of you. Allow me to demonstrate some of the intricate aspects of putting together an argument.

The first key to participating in a debate or argument, is to ask questions that force the opposing party to state unfavourable comments as to their own point.

From this, 2 conclusions can be drawn. Either the party answers them, and the flaws in their arguments are exposed. The alternative is for the party to ignore, or deflect the question; The third outcome, is that the party attacks technical points, or becomes personal.

Now you tell me, which of the three applies to you?

Or alternatively, for meaningful discussion to take place, there needs to be a different paradigm of discussion altogether. It's a point I've been making for quite some time. I've repeatedly pointed you to that paradigm, which is to focus on the collective rather than the individual. And you've repeatedly shown that you can only see the individual, not the collective, thus demonstrating the truth of my point about language.

At Liverpool we don’t have anyone running into no man’s land, running from their own half with the ball into the opposition half. That’s not encouraged at all. That’s nonsense. If you get a ball in the Liverpool team you want options, you want choices… you want at least two people to pass to, maybe three, maybe more… Get the ball, give an early pass, then it goes from me to someone else and it switches around again. You might not be getting very far, but the pattern of the opposition is changing. Finally, somebody will sneak in.

What do you think of the language of the above? Too theoretical? Too philosophical?

[Laergoth]

His fellow Brazilians Anderson and Denilson are both getting alot of games for Man Utd and Arsenal and guess who is miles ahead of them in the Brazilian national team pecking order? Yes it's Lucas,you fucking moron.

I intentionally didn't mention Arsenal, as I do think Denilson is shite and no better than Lucas.

Anderson? He's not a regular starter in the way Lucas is for us. Mr Alex Ferguson tends to only start him against the weaker teams. Plus, he is more than a year younger than Lucas and has more Brazil caps, so you're actually wrong on both counts.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

lucas is first choice midfielder for brazil yet ramirez is not.
anderson might just make the squad..

do keep up

[The 5th Benitle]

Some bad bad dickheads on this thread lately.

[Smashedin]

Or alternatively, for meaningful discussion to take place, there needs to be a different paradigm of discussion altogether. It's a point I've been making for quite some time. I've repeatedly pointed you to that paradigm, which is to focus on the collective rather than the individual. And you've repeatedly shown that you can only see the individual, not the collective, thus demonstrating the truth of my point about language.

At Liverpool we don’t have anyone running into no man’s land, running from their own half with the ball into the opposition half. That’s not encouraged at all. That’s nonsense. If you get a ball in the Liverpool team you want options, you want choices… you want at least two people to pass to, maybe three, maybe more… Get the ball, give an early pass, then it goes from me to someone else and it switches around again. You might not be getting very far, but the pattern of the opposition is changing. Finally, somebody will sneak in.

What do you think of the language of the above? Too theoretical? Too philosophical?

Again a deflection. So, for you, the only purpose of Lucas is to make short passes, in the hope that the opposition will eventually move out of shape. Any player can do that. What does Lucas himself give to the team thats unique.

You want to play philosophy? If you're so keen about educating yourself, go look up the Emergent Properties philosophy. Then come back and try feeding me the same bs about the collective and the individual.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Again a deflection. So, for you, the only purpose of Lucas is to make short passes, in the hope that the opposition will eventually move out of shape. Any player can do that. What does Lucas himself give to the team thats unique.

You want to play philosophy? If you're so keen about educating yourself, go look up the Emergent Properties philosophy. Then come back and try feeding me the same bs about the collective and the individual.

Gods lad your soooooo cold.

sangria is one of the cleverest posters on here and one who understands his own idea's much better than you understand your own.

Go back and read his posts in the level 3 thread in Opinion. Come back and be humble.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

funny that.
gerarrds short game is not exactly flow enducing.

[Laergoth]

lucas is first choice midfielder for brazil yet ramirez is not.
anderson might just make the squad..

do keep up

Ugh. Check your facts out mate. Getting tired of having to prove people wrong on such trivial points which you can look up for yourself.

Lucas was left out of the World Cup squad. Since then, he has started 3 friendlies, against Iran, Ukraine and Argentina. Ramires also started those 3 friendlies.

I don't even rate Ramires highly, but to say that Lucas is a first choice midfielder for Brazil while Ramires is not, is flat out wrong.

Ramires also made the World Cup squad, and Lucas didn't.

Regardless, saying someone is a regular starter for Brazil on the basis of starting 3 friendlies under a new manager is pretty ridiculous.

Furthermore, stop using Brazil as some sort of unbeatable benchmark. This is not a brilliant Brazil squad. They got knocked out of the World Cup by a Dutch side which included André Ooijer and John Heitinga in their first team. Just because Brazil has fielded some great teams in the past does not mean that the current Brazil team is great. Heck, Ghana reached the QF too. John Pantsil is a regular starter for them.. That must mean he's Liverpool standard!

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

some players have a short game with understanding.
some players dont.

looks like someone hasnt really grasped the game outside this island....not suprised though there are rather a lot who havent.

[Smashedin]

Gods lad your soooooo cold.

sangria is one of the cleverest posters on here and one who understands his own idea's much better than you understand your own.

Go back and read his posts in the level 3 thread in Opinion. Come back and be humble.

Spare me the adoration. Looks like the liverpool squad isn't the only drop in standards if thats the 'cleverest' RAWK has.

[mulhergremista]

lucas is first choice midfielder for brazil yet ramirez is not.
anderson might just make the squad..

do keep up

Anderson just returned from a serious injury which kept him more than 6 months off. Mano will follow him as an option I suppose,  Ramires, like Lucas, was a bunker for Mano but he was subbed in some of the games.  Lucas played surprisingly well even for me, I could only be happy for him and the Brasil squad.   
on the 25th, 10 days from now, Mano will summon the squad to the next game.

Let us wait till then to see, who he will call. I suppose Kaka and Ganso will be called, nothing to do with Lucas. Hernanes(Lazio) is an option also, I suppose a Ramires substitude. , but as I said, let us wait and see

If you want o see the Brazilian youngsters, you can follow the U 20 south American championship, which is also the pre Olympic tournament. Neimar is there, but ther are some other prospcts as well, also in the other teams.  Peru is swamped by scouts loking for cheap "for future investment" starlets

[Sangria]

Again a deflection. So, for you, the only purpose of Lucas is to make short passes, in the hope that the opposition will eventually move out of shape. Any player can do that. What does Lucas himself give to the team thats unique.

You want to play philosophy? If you're so keen about educating yourself, go look up the Emergent Properties philosophy. Then come back and try feeding me the same bs about the collective and the individual.

It says a lot about you that you think those words were nonsense and inconsequential. Yet I respect the bloke who uttered those words, and I believe his description of how Liverpool plays is closer to the Liverpool Way than your ideas about football.

"The Europeans showed that building from the back is the only way to play. It started in Europe and we adapted it into our game at Liverpool where our system had always been a collective one. But when Phil Thompson came in to partner Hughes it became more fluid and perhaps not as easy to identify. This set the pattern which was followed by Thompson and [Alan] Hansen in later years

We realized at Liverpool that you can’t score a goal every time you get the ball. And we learned this from Europe, from the Latin people. When they play the ball from the back they play in little groups. The pattern of the opposition changes as they change. This leaves room for players like Ray Kennedy and Terry McDermott, who both played from Liverpool after I left, to sneak in the final pass. So it’s cat and mouse for a while waiting for the opening to appear before the final ball is let loose. It’s simple and it’s effective…It’s also taken the spectators a long time to adjust to it.

Above all,’the main aim is that everyone can control a ball and do the basic things in football. It’s control and pass… control and pass… all the time. At the back you’re looking for someone who can control the ball instantly and give a forward pass. It gives them more space and time to breathe. If you delay, the opposition have all run back behind the ball. It’s a very simplified affair and, of course, very economical.

At Liverpool we don’t have anyone running into no man’s land, running from their own half with the ball into the opposition half. That’s not encouraged at all. That’s nonsense. If you get a ball in the Liverpool team you want options, you want choices… you want at least two people to pass to, maybe three, maybe more… Get the ball, give an early pass, then it goes from me to someone else and it switches around again. You might not be getting very far, but the pattern of the opposition is changing. Finally, somebody will sneak in."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Shankly

[mulhergremista]

Look mate, there are countless posts on player power having a very negative impact on our club for a very long time. The players couldn´t be charged for that because IN FACT the manager is responsible for a success or not. IN FACT, this is a very common problem, discussed a thousand times before that players cannot be charged BUT on the other do have a negative influence off and on the pitch. For that, sacking a manager sometimes look unfair and probably is. Because HE has to take the responsibility for players not performing to their abilities. No?


And Lucas is a brasilian international and for that an above average player.

Spot on

[Smashedin]

It says a lot about you that you think those words were nonsense and inconsequential. Yet I respect the bloke who uttered those words, and I believe his description of how Liverpool plays is closer to the Liverpool Way than your ideas about football.

"The Europeans showed that building from the back is the only way to play. It started in Europe and we adapted it into our game at Liverpool where our system had always been a collective one. But when Phil Thompson came in to partner Hughes it became more fluid and perhaps not as easy to identify. This set the pattern which was followed by Thompson and [Alan] Hansen in later years

We realized at Liverpool that you can’t score a goal every time you get the ball. And we learned this from Europe, from the Latin people. When they play the ball from the back they play in little groups. The pattern of the opposition changes as they change. This leaves room for players like Ray Kennedy and Terry McDermott, who both played from Liverpool after I left, to sneak in the final pass. So it’s cat and mouse for a while waiting for the opening to appear before the final ball is let loose. It’s simple and it’s effective…It’s also taken the spectators a long time to adjust to it.

Above all,’the main aim is that everyone can control a ball and do the basic things in football. It’s control and pass… control and pass… all the time. At the back you’re looking for someone who can control the ball instantly and give a forward pass. It gives them more space and time to breathe. If you delay, the opposition have all run back behind the ball. It’s a very simplified affair and, of course, very economical.

At Liverpool we don’t have anyone running into no man’s land, running from their own half with the ball into the opposition half. That’s not encouraged at all. That’s nonsense. If you get a ball in the Liverpool team you want options, you want choices… you want at least two people to pass to, maybe three, maybe more… Get the ball, give an early pass, then it goes from me to someone else and it switches around again. You might not be getting very far, but the pattern of the opposition is changing. Finally, somebody will sneak in."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Shankly

And you've completely missed the point again. Now that you've shown me where you've been copying and pasting from for the last couple hours, its pretty safe to assume you're not going to listen to anything other than what you read on wikipedia.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

lucas was the pivot in the midfield
he held the responsibility to direct where the play went.and was always at hand to read the play defensively.

no way will they use ganso or kaka in that role let alone anderson....andersona could be used in one of the marshalls nest to him...to provide movement and link to the forwards.

[G1 Jockey 4(betfair)]

we do seemto have gotten away from triangle football back to charlie hughes get it forward more quickly football.....it is the English disease and held in place by the sky masses.

persoanlly i love watching german and spanish football anyday over the premier league.

just wish Liverpool would take a leaf and drop the dinosaur approach....probalem is we have too many players (only a handfull but still too many) who were brought up this way.

[Laergoth]

Again a deflection. So, for you, the only purpose of Lucas is to make short passes, in the hope that the opposition will eventually move out of shape. Any player can do that. What does Lucas himself give to the team thats unique.

A very good point. sangria's reasoning has suggested that Lucas' role is a very simple one which any player could do. And he doesn't even do that role perfectly well. Plus, he's missed out the point that if you're a deep-lying midfielder just making short passes to nearby players, you need to be defensively strong too, as your team won't be on the ball all the time.

I have to say, having only read about 5 of sangria's posts, each one of them sounds: Utterly nonsensical, the types of footballing logic someone who has just played FM but not the real game comes out with, and yet mixed with a conceited arrogance. Very bizarre.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Spare me the adoration. Looks like the liverpool squad isn't the only drop in standards if thats the 'cleverest' RAWK has.

You have the option of not gracing the site with your considerable wit.

[Borninbethlehem]

Ugh. Check your facts out mate. Getting tired of having to prove people wrong on such trivial points which you can look up for yourself.

Lucas was left out of the World Cup squad. Since then, he has started 3 friendlies, against Iran, Ukraine and Argentina. Ramires also started those 3 friendlies.

I don't even rate Ramires highly, but to say that Lucas is a first choice midfielder for Brazil while Ramires is not, is flat out wrong.

Ramires also made the World Cup squad, and Lucas didn't.

Regardless, saying someone is a regular starter for Brazil on the basis of starting 3 friendlies under a new manager is pretty ridiculous.

Furthermore, stop using Brazil as some sort of unbeatable benchmark. This is not a brilliant Brazil squad. They got knocked out of the World Cup by a Dutch side which included André Ooijer and John Heitinga in their first team. Just because Brazil has fielded some great teams in the past does not mean that the current Brazil team is great. Heck, Ghana reached the QF too. John Pantsil is a regular starter for them.. That must mean he's Liverpool standard!

Look, Laergoth, this isn't the thread for using facts to back up your arguments. This is the Lucas thread.

[Smashedin]

You have the option of not gracing the site with your considerable wit.

Read back and get some context.

Look, Laergoth, this isn't the thread for using facts to back up your arguments. This is the Lucas thread.

Credit for that one.

[Laergoth]

My opinion on Lucas is that he is a good, steady player. I'm going to state what I believe are the positives and negatives of Lucas.

Positives: Neat passes (forwards, backwards and sideways) with a high percentage completion rate.  He's not the best tackler, but at least he gets stuck in now. He is a hard worker and puts his all into every game. He has a strong mentality, and has improved as a player despite heavy criticism.

Negatives: He is poor in the final third, which is justified by his lack of goals and assists. His assists for a central midfielder is way below average. He doesn't really thrive in the final third. IF he contributed to our attack, he would get alot more praise, but because he doesn't, he is seen as a bit of a 'drifter' by many.

Now, how good is Lucas? Would he be part of a team aspiring for top 4 or a title? Would the likes of Barcelona, Madrid, Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea want Lucas in their team? In my opinion, the answer is no. I think Lucas is a decent little player, BUT,  if we are aspiring in the future to be challenging for the title, Lucas should be a substitute at most.

As for people stating he is average? Well, they may have a point. He is not the greatest defensively, and is actually below average going forward. His strong points are picking up the ball, making a neat pass and keeping the ball moving in the centre of the park. He is above average in that aspect, but below average in others, which kind of evens him out to being, well, average.

Good post btw.

[The 5th Benitle]

Must say these two are a new breed. They actually manage to string a few words together. The words say nothing mind but at least these ones appear vaguely intelligent.
Not about midfield play mind you.

'Let's buy Essien and Xavi lulz' has more meat to it than cutting down intelligent posts while not contributing any reasonable argument as to why Lucas isn't good enough. Apart from...'he doesn't dominate' 'he's average' and 'he's not good enough' which is frankly stunning insight.

I particularly like the angle of saying the player isn't good enough then refusing to name any suitable replacements. Top stuff that.

In proper sentences they might be but the content is average, not good enough and is a long way from doing anything other than convince us that these chaps don't actually watch the games.

[Chakan]

It's a circular argument/discussion. Mind as well just lock the thread.

[Smashedin]

Must say these two are a new breed. They actually manage to string a few words together. The words say nothing mind but at least these ones appear vaguely intelligent.
Not about midfield play mind you.

'Let's buy Essien and Xavi lulz' has more meat to it than cutting down intelligent posts while not contributing any reasonable argument as to why Lucas isn't good enough. Apart from...'he doesn't dominate' 'he's average' and 'he's not good enough' which is frankly stunning insight.

I particularly like the angle of saying the player isn't good enough then refusing to name any suitable replacements. Top stuff that.

In proper sentences they might be but the content is average, not good enough and is a long way from doing anything other than convince us that these chaps don't actually watch the games.

And so we tumble to the depths of virtual mud slinging...

Questions we have asked, have not be answered. So we've reverted to personal attacks.

I must say though, 'Lucas played for Brazil in a friendly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", is hard to argue with.

Here's a replacement: Xavi. Do you hear me Kenny?! SIGN XAVI NOW!!

Hopefully now i've stated my preference, using my brilliant wikipedia browsing ability, Kenny will finally sign the player we need.

Can i join your i'm-ultra-intelligent-because-i-support-lucas club now?

[Laergoth]

Robinho! He's a regular starter for Brazil, and could probably make short, simple passes to the nearest player, and won't tackle anyone. Sign him up!

[bleedsred1978]

And so we tumble to the depths of virtual mud slinging...

Questions we have asked, have not be answered. So we've reverted to personal attacks.

I must say though, 'Lucas played for Brazil in a friendly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", is hard to argue with.

Here's a replacement: Xavi. Do you hear me Kenny?! SIGN XAVI NOW!!

Hopefully now i've stated my preference, using my brilliant wikipedia browsing ability, Kenny will finally sign the player we need.

Can i join your i'm-ultra-intelligent-because-i-support-lucas club now?

You fit neither category so no.

Do you want some sort of adulation for stating that Xavi is better than Lucas?

Give a 5/6 million pound replacement?

[The 5th Benitle]

Nope I was wrong. Idiots after all. Yorkykopite's law still applies.

[Laergoth]

Go ahead then. Tell us what Yorky's Law is.

[Cadno]

Go ahead then. Tell us what Yorky's Law is.

Take a look at his post history.  Take a little bit of effort to educate yourself instead of having everything spoon fed.

[Fordy]

My opinion on Lucas is that he is a good, steady player. I'm going to state what I believe are the positives and negatives of Lucas.

Positives: Neat passes (forwards, backwards and sideways) with a high percentage completion rate.  He's not the best tackler, but at least he gets stuck in now. He is a hard worker and puts his all into every game. He has a strong mentality, and has improved as a player despite heavy criticism.

Negatives: He is poor in the final third, which is justified by his lack of goals and assists. His assists for a central midfielder is way below average. He doesn't really thrive in the final third. IF he contributed to our attack, he would get alot more praise, but because he doesn't, he is seen as a bit of a 'drifter' by many.

Now, how good is Lucas? Would he be part of a team aspiring for top 4 or a title? Would the likes of Barcelona, Madrid, Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea want Lucas in their team? In my opinion, the answer is no. I think Lucas is a decent little player, BUT,  if we are aspiring in the future to be challenging for the title, Lucas should be a substitute at most.

As for people stating he is average? Well, they may have a point. He is not the greatest defensively, and is actually below average going forward. His strong points are picking up the ball, making a neat pass and keeping the ball moving in the centre of the park. He is above average in that aspect, but below average in others, which kind of evens him out to being, well, average.

Spot on post.

Lucas is an average football, nothing more, nothing less - Just plain old god dam average.

For me he isnt a DM player. Yes he is better than Poulsen in that position now but I would play him further forward.

The lad needs to man the fuck up, want the ball and try different things.

Overall I would keep him as a squad player but he is average and a sign of what LFC has become in recent years I am sorry to say.

[The 5th Benitle]

Its basically the same as what Rafa said about those who don't understand what Lucas brings to the team.
But put a bit more bluntly.

[Laergoth]

Take a look at his post history.  Take a little bit of effort to educate yourself instead of having everything spoon fed.

Hang on, I'm the guy constantly having to look up stats on FIFA sites and everywhere else to show people that they got their facts wrong, and you Lucas lovers can't even be bothered to state a law for me that you already know?

This must be Yorky's Law:

"Everything we Lucas lovers say is contradictory. We're massive hypocrites, and if anyone tells us why they don't rate Lucas, we'll just keep repeating the same glib, nonsensical statements which don't even relate to their points, until they just can't be bothered anymore and bugger off."

[Laergoth]

Its basically the same as what Rafa said about those who don't understand what Lucas brings to the team.
But put a bit more bluntly.

Ah K, well thanks for at least telling me.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Hang on, I'm the guy constantly having to look up stats on FIFA sites and everywhere else to show people that they got their facts wrong, and you Lucas lovers can't even be bothered to state a law for me that you already know?

This must be Yorky's Law:

"Everything we Lucas lovers say is contradictory. We're massive hypocrites, and if anyone tells us why they don't rate Lucas, we'll just keep repeating the same glib, nonsensical statements which don't even relate to their points, until they just can't be bothered anymore and bugger off."

That reads as

I am too lazy to look it up. Fuck it a smart comment will sort them out.

[LukeD]

As I've said before on here, I would have Lucas in any team I managed and I would love to be the type of player Lucas is.  This is normally where someone comes back with the very clever "Thank God you're not managing Liverpool then!"; fair enough, we're all entitled to our opinions and we can't all be as clever and football savvy as me!

For me, Lucas has the feel of a Molby about him.  I'm not by any means saying he's as good as Molby (yet) but I really feel there is the chance he will grow into a Molby-esque player (perhaps 'grow' is the wrong word there, sorry Jan!).  If you watch him play closely he always seems to have time.  I remember watching Molby and being amazed that no matter how quick the game was, how breakneck the pace, he seemed to have the ability to slow the whole thing down and have the time and space to do exactly what he wanted.  For me, Lucas is getting that way and he's also starting to become more and more of a box to box type player which can only be good for the team.  As some have said, his game in the final third needs developing but that will come.

I can genuinely see us looking back in a few years time and wondering why we ever questioned Lucas' ability as I am fairly certain he'll be up there with Reina and, hopefully, Torres and Agger as the first names on the sheet.  This Club is, or was, all about pass and move and you need players who are comfortable on the ball and who have faith in their ability to be able to build a squad capable of playing that.  Lucas is young enough and talented enough to be the link player in our midfield and supply passes the way that Molby and Alonso have in the past.  And I'll tell you what, the guy in charge at the moment is exactly the player to school him in that ethos too; under Kenny I can see Lucas' influence growing and growing this season.

I could be wrong, and I am sure I have written stuff here that has a lot of you questioning my sanity.  If I am wrong I will hold my hands up but I really don't think I will be. 

For me the question really should be "Why would we not keep Lucas?".

[Laergoth]

Spot on post.

Lucas is an average football, nothing more, nothing less - Just plain old god dam average.

For me he isnt a DM player. Yes he is better than Poulsen in that position now but I would play he further forward.

The lad needs to man the fuck up, want the ball and try different things.

Overall I would keep him as a squad player but he is average and a sign of what LFC has become in recent years I am sorry to say.

Definitely agree with this, especially the last two lines. Another good summary of Lucas.

[leivapool]

Absolutely excellent article here on Lucas.  It's long, but if you don't 'get' what Lucas brings to the team , I'm talking to you here Laergoth, Fordy, smashedin! then maybe this article will help.

It's long, but you really should persevere with it, you might then understand what we see in Lucas.  (Its too long to paste the whole article)

http://liverpool.theoffside.com/miscellaneous/liverpool-class-and-the-ptolemaic-world-view.html

You also need to read this for Yorkys Law which has been referred to many times:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=234982.0

Happy reading.  You really do NEED to read this to understand Lucas's game, and how good he is......

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Lucas is a great player. He'll be captain of Brazil sooner rather than later. A great buy

[mulhergremista]

The lad needs to man the fuck up, want the ball and try different things.

What  a sentence, says nothing at all

1. What do you mean by "man the f**k up"  what is your definition of "man" ? convince me pls that I am wrong qnd it is not just male chouvinist cliche.
He is going to have a baby soon, this is the only proof of manhood necessary for me.     

And what is not manly about Lucas, is he too decent, does not go to pubs, does not womanize, does not make vulgar tackles like Mascherano? has good manners? does not use 4 letters words?  Explain it to me, I am a quick learner, if there is something to learn

You think he is coward? Lucas?  well , have your eyes checked.

He does want the ball, demands the ball, not always get it from his team mates.and pls specify which different things he should try. I am all for it, but the coach has to suggest this to him, or demand it from him, try it in trainings,  until then, he has to fulfill his role, nobody else will do it for him.