Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[Degs]

You obviously forget how many games Pennant and Riise started in the same team.

In psychology that's called repression

[b_joseph]

Cheeky bastards

To be fair, Riise never really floated. He just choose the wrong job and should have pursued a career as an NFL place kicker.

On a serious note. I'd rather give Lucas a chance in an advanced role before I'd buy Ribery.

[Degs]

Cheeky bastards

To be fair, Riise never really floated. He just choose the wrong job and should have pursued a career as an NFL place kicker.

On a serious note. I'd rather give Lucas a chance in an advanced role before I'd buy Ribery.

Nobody would play Ribery where Lucas should play.
Ribery is a winger, Lucas is at best an attacking midfielder and there's not a fucking cat in hells chance he's getting ahead of Gerrard there.

[lfcderek]

Nobody would play Ribery where Lucas should play.
Ribery is a winger, Lucas is at best an attacking midfielder and there's not a fucking cat in hells chance he's getting ahead of Gerrard there.

I think the best use of our resources is likely to be (against all bar the strongest teams)

                Mash   Alonso

Gerrard         Lucas            Riera
               
                     Torres

Benny for Lucas would also be a more attacking option than Dirk on the right.

No Kuyt on the teamsheet - Gerrard on the right - I'm afraid it's as you say - there's no chance.

[Degs]

I think the best use of our resources is likely to be (against all bar the strongest teams)

                Mash   Alonso

Gerrard         Lucas            Riera
               
                     Torres

Benny for Lucas would also be a more attacking option than Dirk on the right.

No Kuyt on the teamsheet - Gerrard on the right - I'm afraid it's as you say - there's no chance.

I agree.
Will never happen though.

[LF]

Up to a point it's happening already, but I strongly believe that there's a limit to what technology can do. What it really does is hugely aid an already pre-existing trend...applying scientific principles to football. Now, that has brought the game on in leaps and bounds, brought on some great refinements, but that's always had it's limits. You can analyse trends, isolate positions of importance, moves that maximise chances but it's still reliant on fleshy, emotional individuals to implement those plans.

That plus the difficulty of scoring a goal limits how useful science can be, and will possibly become a real seperator between football and other sports. I could see the value of computers being able to have more impact on a sport like Rugby or American Football or even Cricket...where it's all broken down into 'set plays' of a sort, and where the 'favourites' are generally worthy of the tag...pretty rare to get genuine upsets, pretty non-existent to get upsets from the real minnows (IE the cricket/rugby/whatever equivalent of, say, Greece in Euro '08).

I love the analytical side of football but what I love most about it (and this is true of FM and is at the heart of that gmae's popularity) is that luck and psychology remains such a huge factor. In chess, strategy wins. In football, strategy can do no more than maximise your chances...that wonderful 'x' factor is present every minute of every game just waiting to turn things on their head...a Ronaldo injury, a penalty miss, a last minute equaliser, an inspired keeping display, one inspired piece of skill or disastrous mistake can reverse months, years worth of careful planning and gathering momentum in a mere instant. As much as I hate Fergie his post 99 comment of 'Fitbah...Bloody hell' is right up there in the pantheon of bang on quotes which truly sum the game up.

Nah I am not really talking about the on field stuff. But rather the off-field thing? Do you think technology could ever advance that we could determine the good players from bad? That's what I am worried about most. It just takes the romance out of football thinking about stuff like these. I think video replays and stuff could do good in football but then I wouldn't like them to be implemented. Don't know what to say really. Just always hoping football remains a simple game.

[Degs]

Nah I am not really talking about the on field stuff. But rather the off-field thing? Do you think technology could ever advance that we could determine the good players from bad? That's what I am worried about most. It just takes the romance out of football thinking about stuff like these. I think video replays and stuff could do good in football but then I wouldn't like them to be implemented. Don't know what to say really. Just always hoping football remains a simple game.

You can't measure emotions and humans performance is dependant on emotions.
Read a bit about the Honda factories in Japan and it's meant o be both the happiest and most productive place to work.

You can analyse how Roinho plays at Madrid but stick him in a country where he doesn't know the language, he doesn't like the climate, he's getting involved with the law, he's getting in fights with management, and he isn't mixing with other players well and you've got a far inferior performance.

Look at Robbie Keane as well, you can't really scientifically measure the fact that he needs the manager to suck him off before he connects with the ball.

Technology and statistics have always had a big influence on the best teams but there are some things in life you can't predict.

[LF]

Do you think technology and stat's had big influence on successful teams in the past then?

I sometimes wonder how everybody would go on about today without all the new technology of 2d stuff or the other complicated things. Then maybe technology isn't that bad of a thing either. It could be useful. What would you have then degs? video replays before off-side decisions etc? or the way it is now?

[Degs]

Do you think technology and stat's had big influence on successful teams in the past then?

I sometimes wonder how everybody would go on about today without all the new technology of 2d stuff or the other complicated things. Then maybe technology isn't that bad of a thing either. It could be useful. What would you have then degs? video replays before off-side decisions etc? or the way it is now?

I can;t remember the team, I think it might be Keiv.
The manager had a list of stats that must be accomplished each match, pass forward, shots, etc.
I think that was back in the 50s or 60s.

Personally I don't like the idea of a stop/start every 2 minutes to check offsides.
If you look at cricket every single run-out is checked with the 3rd umpire and the beauty of footy is that it flows.

Ultimatly I'm thinking yes, probably need 3rd eyes, but not for offsides.
Penalty decisions and red cards.  Game changers.

What I would deffo have is the chip in the ball that send a message/makes a sound when it goes over the goal-line.

[LF]

I can;t remember the team, I think it might be Keiv.
The manager had a list of stats that must be accomplished each match, pass forward, shots, etc.
I think that was back in the 50s or 60s.

Personally I don't like the idea of a stop/start every 2 minutes to check offsides.
If you look at cricket every single run-out is checked with the 3rd umpire and the beauty of footy is that it flows.

Ultimatly I'm thinking yes, probably need 3rd eyes, but not for offsides.
Penalty decisions and red cards.  Game changers.

What I would deffo have is the chip in the ball that send a message/makes a sound when it goes over the goal-line.

I don't quite understand it but do you mean objectives to be accomplished in matches? How in the world would he have got detailed stats back then anyway?

Never heard of that chip thing in the ball but I like that. Would probably me the most effective thing. Thing that divides me is the video replays for cards and penalties.  I know it would do good to actually use them but I just like the drama surrounding the cards/pens too much.

[Degs]

I don't quite understand it but do you mean objectives to be accomplished in matches? How in the world would he have got detailed stats back then anyway?

He counted

[LF]

that's shocking. 

I think I'll call it a day here and get to bed. nice talking to ya.

[Degs]

Just saw Navas win another match for Seville.
Reckon if we rename the county Costa del Mersey he might be interested?

[killer-heels]

Just saw Navas win another match for Seville.
Reckon if we rename the county Costa del Mersey he might be interested?

I wiki'ed him because he gets mentioned alot on this site and i havent really seen him play

Seeing that he can just about travel to other parts of Spain, let alone abroad, i think the chances of that are slim to none

[Degs]

I wiki'ed him because he gets mentioned alot on this site and i havent really seen him play

Seeing that he can just about travel to other parts of Spain, let alone abroad, i think the chances of that are slim to none

Costa Del Mersey, don't you know Lark Lane is referred to by some (read "none") as "El Minio Ramblas".

I know this si the case, it's impossible, but I can dream.
Just get Nike to again pay chippies on Dingle Lane to serve tapas like in the Torres advert and we'll have him.

[Juan Loco]

Costa Del Mersey, don't you know Lark Lane is referred to by some (read "none") as "El Minio Ramblas".

I know this si the case, it's impossible, but I can dream.
Just get Nike to again pay chippies on Dingle Lane to serve tapas like in the Torres advert and we'll have him.

Having been to Sevilla in the summer, I reckon we'll have to pay someone to follow him around with a UV light or whatever it is they use in tanning salons (... Heels is blonde and vain, she'll know ). It's fucking boiling out there. Can see why he doesn't want to leave, to be fair.

Catch the chance Simao put on a plate for Forlan? We could be into our 4th season of that kind of service. ... *shakes head*. Why is it we can lose out on Villa, but get Torres. Or lose out on Vidic but get Skrtel and Agger... yet when we lose out on a winger the closest we get to a replacement is Riera?

I'm down.

[Degs]

Having been to Sevilla in the summer, I reckon we'll have to pay someone to follow him around with a UV light or whatever it is they use in tanning salons (... Heels is blonde and vain, she'll know ). It's fucking boiling out there. Can see why he doesn't want to leave, to be fair.

Catch the chance Simao put on a plate for Forlan? We could be into our 4th season of that kind of service. ... *shakes head*. Why is it we can lose out on Villa, but get Torres. Or lose out on Vidic but get Skrtel and Agger... yet when we lose out on a winger the closest we get to a replacement is Riera?

I'm down.

I did, how did he miss it, and I've got a spanish textvook in mine that I'm gonna break open soon enough as I want to move over there, the only reason being the sun.

Bring on global warming, fuck the Maldives I wanna lie on the grass in sevvy park without taking half of it with me.

[nocturnalvin]

Bordeaux have the first option on Groucouff for 14 million if they want him, whether he wants to stay there is another matter.

a tad over-rated at this moment of time, and the likening to Zidane is a dead joke.

[royhendo]

I don't quite understand it but do you mean objectives to be accomplished in matches? How in the world would he have got detailed stats back then

Jonathan Wilson has a lot on this in Inverting The Pyramid mate - how they wanted to implement football as process using computer technology etc. Lobanowskyi, as Degs says, implemented rating systems that included all 'contributions' a player could make. No passengers allowed in those teams, that's for sure.

On Navas... Gonzalez was doing the same for Sociedad a few years ago but we know how he fell short. We're after players who can control their zone as well as add to our attacking play. Ideally we want (to bring the thread back to its roots):

- physical attributes
- team tactical awareness
- defensive appetite and workrate
- flawless mentality
- consistency
- footballing quality

Players like Navas are limited according to that template. I can't comment on Gourcuff having not seen him play.

[Another Red]

Jonathan Wilson has a lot on this in Inverting The Pyramid mate - how they wanted to implement football as process using computer technology etc. Lobanowskyi, as Degs says, implemented rating systems that included all 'contributions' a player could make. No passengers allowed in those teams, that's for sure.

On Navas... Gonzalez was doing the same for Sociedad a few years ago but we know how he fell short. We're after players who can control their zone as well as add to our attacking play. Ideally we want (to bring the thread back to its roots):

- physical attributes
- team tactical awareness
- defensive appetite and workrate
- flawless mentality
- consistency
- footballing quality

Players like Navas are limited according to that template. I can't comment on Gourcuff having not seen him play.

I've seen a bit of Gourcuff. Without hyping him up too much I'd say that he reminds me of a few decent players. He plays centre mid for Bordeaux as a playmaker & goalscorer but I reckon he could play in a number of attacking positions. He works hard but his defensive attributes leave a bit to be desired. Physically he's tall and quick. In terms of quality he looks highly skillful on the ball and his passing is good too. He plays like a natural leader so he must have a good head on his shoulders.

[royhendo]

Interesting. I read/translated an article from Le Figaro on him last week that basically said comparisons aside, he's a tremendous player (am trying to brush up on my French).

Edit: it's "decrytpage d'une phenomene" or sommat.

Michels is very clear on the criteria for his ideal player, and they seem to map neatly to the other managers of that "school". It gives an insight into our recruitment and attempted recruitment (at times anyway - in our financial context we need to compromise/gamble at times).

[nocturnalvin]

Gourcuff is a very good player, and has the right physical attributes. Comparisons with Zizou are way off the mark, but that's not his fault anyway. I still do not think he is magical, in fact i think he still pale even compared to Juninho.

[LF]

Jonathan Wilson has a lot on this in Inverting The Pyramid mate - how they wanted to implement football as process using computer technology etc. Lobanowskyi, as Degs says, implemented rating systems that included all 'contributions' a player could make. No passengers allowed in those teams, that's for sure.

On Navas... Gonzalez was doing the same for Sociedad a few years ago but we know how he fell short. We're after players who can control their zone as well as add to our attacking play. Ideally we want (to bring the thread back to its roots):

- physical attributes
- team tactical awareness
- defensive appetite and workrate
- flawless mentality
- consistency
- footballing quality

Players like Navas are limited according to that template. I can't comment on Gourcuff having not seen him play.

ahhh I see. I thought football was a simple game. 


I think Gonzalez had a lot of potential, but we should have given him more time.  He was really comfortable with the ball at his feet, which I think we are really lacking. Seeing our match today, how Torres controls the balls effortlessly we should look to get in another. It's a big help when you can get things rolling within seconds of receiving the ball. At times I do think our team holds onto the ball too much.

Navas has the quality but I can't speak for the consistency. Haven't really seen him play a lot. Worth a punt anyway, I am sure he is going to get some defensive game drilled into him by Rafa.

[Degs]

No seriously I've been quite jovial and I apologise if it's come accross as serious but Navas wouldn't leave the end of his road never mind Andalucia, never mind Spain.

We need a player in his mould though, varied in the play, able to come inside and finish ike a world class centre forward, yet stay out wide and put in a great delivery - if only to keep the defenders guessing what he'll do next.

There's not many of them about.

[LF]

Just found out now, Navas has chronic homesickness.  That rules him out I guess.

[Degs]

Just found out now, Navas has chronic homesickness.  That rules him out I guess.

Unless my plan for Costa Del Mersey is given the grenlight.

On today's match what can you say, we don;t have the squad depth to win the league.
When the Mancs spend 30 million on 2 players who have played only 20 games this season (Anderson and Nani), then go out and spend 15 million on another one (Tosic), we need the likes of that 45 million for our subs, never mind squad (saying that we had 11 million pounds worth in Babel sat there today).

I could go into detail about how the Maginot line wasn't broken until they scored, again, and then by Mascherano of all people but it's not worth going over the same ground time and time again.

[Kaka 22]

Jesus Navas and Diego Capel can all to often get bullied out of games in La Liga, i would dread to think how much time the pair would end up on the deck if either of them got a move to the prem.

re: ribery - the guy just has incredible controlled dribbling, matched only by Robben, Messi,Silva and Ronaldo, i'd have him here in a heart beat

edit; just watching Lafita, a supposed Rafa target, such great feet and once he has done a man he doesn't panic, dinks a great ball up for the striker - very impressed

[Hank Scorpio]

We can talk all day about getting player x, y or z.  Of course, we can improve on our current first teamers, but my main concern is our style of play now.  Personally, this issue has become more and more apparent during the course of this season.

A team is dictated by its aims and objectives.  The same set of players can have very different results if the objectives are changed.

[BazC]

Hank, lately I've always thought the style of our football is the limiting factor- hence why I don't get drawn into the "we need this player" stuff too often. We're not far off- one big player away from being winners- in terms of players. But in terms of style of football? We're not near Man U. When you watch them play these days, they look like they can score after every attack. We don't- nowhere near in fact. Even though we control the ball, control midfield and have a solid defence, we don't look like we can score a goal as a team- we depend on individuals more. Torres, Gerrard, Xabi and to some extent, Reina. They're the players we 'depend' on. Gerrard and Torres to perform alchemy, Alonso to literally breath life into our game and Reina to bail out our defence (which he's had to do all too regularly at times this season).

This side's not improved over this season. We started off on the same page as our competitors, but got a bit luckier with results- neither of the performances of us, Man U or Chelsea were anything to shout about. But we stood strong at the top of the table... but now the Mancs have seriously pushed up a couple of levels, and we're jogging behind still playing poor attacking football and having to beat teams with seconds to spare.

Things need to change dramatically. At the moment, the club doesn't look like a place that's working towards a title. It's full of petty little struggles and battles off the pitch, then you have Rafa trying to manage a team through it. Everyone's making mistakes. We were clear at the top of the table, and now we're 7 points behind. Just a shit, shit feeling to be honest.

[Hank Scorpio]

Hank, lately I've always thought the style of our football is the limiting factor- hence why I don't get drawn into the "we need this player" stuff too often. We're not far off- one big player away from being winners- in terms of players. But in terms of style of football? We're not near Man U. When you watch them play these days, they look like they can score after every attack. We don't- nowhere near in fact. Even though we control the ball, control midfield and have a solid defence, we don't look like we can score a goal as a team- we depend on individuals more. Torres, Gerrard, Xabi and to some extent, Reina. They're the players we 'depend' on. Gerrard and Torres to perform alchemy, Alonso to literally breath life into our game and Reina to bail out our defence (which he's had to do all too regularly at times this season).

This is what I mean, Baz.  This type of approach.  We depend on individuals to bail us out rather than producing good attacking as a unit. 

Is that one of our objectives? 

To throw huge resources at the defensive side of our game and then look to 3/4 players to create/score goals?  If it is not then it is certainly the way it plays out.

Is that why we regularly see industrious players in the place of creative ones?

I am a LFC fan but I will also confess to being a football fan.  For me, the first names on our team sheet should be those of Aurelio, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres.  Of course, I would include Reina and Mascherano in that but the point I am trying to make is the former are footballers.  You know, the ones that take one touch to control, head up at all times, pass with the next touch and then move into space to receive it again.  All done in one, graceful, fluid motion.

to be honest, I sometimes think that, if I were a neutral, I would not want to watch us play.

[BazC]

I just realised that perhaps I should have rephrased my post... the style's the limiting factor because of the players. But then it can easily be argued that the players are the limiting factor for the style. If you know what I mean. There's no harmony there- either change the style or change the players in my opinion. Since we can't change the players, then a few things need 'tweaking'- I don't mean overhauling the approach to football, but just adjusting it to fit our players more. Then, in the summer if it's allowed (finances permitting I mean), better players need to be brought in who do fit Rafa's style.

It's important to get the boardroom shite sorted as well. I have stayed away from that side of things mainly, but it's seriously not producing the right environment for our football now. Parry needs getting rid of. I'm beginning to think his influence is even worse than the owners we have actually.

[b_joseph]

We would be able to deal with the loss of Ste and Xabi if we had genius in a wide area. But because there is no genius in a wide area and our 3 best players are all central. Losing 2 of 3 for a game is death.
1 of 3 and we can be ok but 2 of 3 and 3 of 3.....we may as well go home.

That is why United can lose CM after CM. Replace them with the likes of Fletcher and still perform like they have a squad at 100% fitness.

Until we have a natural wide player who is on the same level as Gerrard, Torres and Alonso. We are going to struggle during a 38 game season. The league table doesnt lie, your faults will get exposed in the league eventually and that is what has been happening to us over the past 2 months.

Its amazing how we could go back to nearly every post we have made about of faults over the past few years and use them right now. Its like complaining about having a bad tooth for 10 years and wondering why it doesnt get better when you decide to ignore it and hope the pain goes away.

[hwieniawski]

Hank, lately I've always thought the style of our football is the limiting factor- hence why I don't get drawn into the "we need this player" stuff too often. We're not far off- one big player away from being winners- in terms of players. But in terms of style of football? We're not near Man U. When you watch them play these days, they look like they can score after every attack. We don't- nowhere near in fact. Even though we control the ball, control midfield and have a solid defence, we don't look like we can score a goal as a team- we depend on individuals more. Torres, Gerrard, Xabi and to some extent, Reina. They're the players we 'depend' on. Gerrard and Torres to perform alchemy, Alonso to literally breath life into our game and Reina to bail out our defence (which he's had to do all too regularly at times this season).

This side's not improved over this season. We started off on the same page as our competitors, but got a bit luckier with results- neither of the performances of us, Man U or Chelsea were anything to shout about. But we stood strong at the top of the table... but now the Mancs have seriously pushed up a couple of levels, and we're jogging behind still playing poor attacking football and having to beat teams with seconds to spare.

Things need to change dramatically. At the moment, the club doesn't look like a place that's working towards a title. It's full of petty little struggles and battles off the pitch, then you have Rafa trying to manage a team through it. Everyone's making mistakes. We were clear at the top of the table, and now we're 7 points behind. Just a shit, shit feeling to be honest.

completely agree. It's incredibly frustrating, but I think for most of it it's hardly a surprise. While we've been better in general this year, we still have pretty serious weaknesses.



Also, can we please stop using the term Maginot Line?! considering it didn't do shit, I'd rather we not use that to talk of our Masch line

[Manila Kop]

Anyone else think it was painful watching Carra and Skrtel dawdle on the ball at the back?  It was like they were stuck in molasses...

To be fair to both, they tried to make runs into the opposition half.  It's their ability on the ball that's lacking.  Also, what the fuck was everyone doing leaving players unmarked in our penalty area?  I can understand the principle of 2-3 defenders hounding Robinho when he has the ball, but whatever happened to our fabled ability to 'track back' and mark the other players?

I can feel the palpable gloom on this thread...I won't even bother to check out the main boards.

[BazC]

Anyone else think it was painful watching Carra and Skrtel dawdle on the ball at the back?  It was like they were stuck in molasses...

To be fair to both, they tried to make runs into the opposition half.  It's their ability on the ball that's lacking.  Also, what the fuck was everyone doing leaving players unmarked in our penalty area?  I can understand the principle of 2-3 defenders hounding Robinho when he has the ball, but whatever happened to our fabled ability to 'track back' and mark the other players?

I can feel the palpable gloom on this thread...I won't even bother to check out the main boards.

Carra frustrates me incalculably when it's on his shoulders to bring the ball out of defence. Not only does he slow the play down, but he's not always (almost never) able to pick out a decent pass when he needs to go long. Although today there was a fine example of one when he can- they're so rare I can't name another instance of it though.

Skrtel- great defender. Well, a very good one. Has the ability to bring the ball out of defence too, unlike Carra- he can carry it quite far. Crucially though, he can't do anything with the ball when he gets to the point where he really needs to capitalise on the run he's just made.

Agger- best defender for me- at least the one most likely to help us improve our general level of football. So it's extremely worrying and baffling that he's not playing regularly these days. If he's forced out the door, it'll be almost as big a mistake as Rafa was about to make in shipping Xabi out. I hope he gets back into the team.

What I think we need to do now is to start playing more attacking football. By that I don't mean aimlessly going for the jugular, but modifying the mentality of the team to be more direct in the attack. Put the players in that allow us to do this. Even though I want to see a more attacking brand of football, at the same time I don't want to see us lose out in the midfield and defence- watching Mascherano go off for a striker is something I've never agreed with when I've seen it for example. Today, we could easily have lost the match when Masch went off- leaving Lucas to handle the midfield on his own was a massive risk in my opinion. Hell, even if Xabi was the one being left there I'd be worried, but Lucas? Nope- the game was way too open after that.

The balance needs to be struck. Rafa has the job of trying to find that balance whilst trying to win a league title- so there isn't really the opportunity to make radical changes. What is clear though, is that something does need to change. The whole season it's been like this and there's been no progress from those players. Last season it was similar when Xabi was out (and yes, he was important even last season and not shite as some think), this season it's been Torres. Is it just luck then (regarding injuries) or is it just that the players and staff aren't stepping up to it?

[Manila Kop]

Totally agree Baz.  You could feel us being one missed clearance away from collapse when Masch left.  He was really at his best yesterday - which makes it more baffling we chose to go with Skrtel and Carragher.  Realistically, City was never going to be the kind of team we needed to make last-ditch defensive efforts with for the majority of the game - they only got into the match last night when they started winning the midfield.  If we had kept up the pressure on them, we would have won the game.  I've never been a great fan of Agger, but I think he's a critical ingredient in getting the right balance between defense and attack - Juan Loco's point about expecting more attacking contribution from the defenders.

That said, we were two Shay Given saves (Yossi's volley and Kuyt's long-range cracker) and a Blackburn goal-bound ball hitting the post away from opening up the title race this weekend.  Football.  What a bloody game.

[Mimi]

Realistically, City was never going to be the kind of team we needed to make last-ditch defensive efforts with for the majority of the game - they only got into the match last night when they started winning the midfield. 

--- Just for the pace, you don't think some caution was warranted with Robinho and Bellamy? Ireland can also be a tricky fucker. I think some defensive caution was warranted. 

As for the Mascherano substitution and the risk it posed---- I think Rafa delayed as long as possible knowing how risky it was. He also went on the assumption that Lucas is a bigger attacking threat--- or at least should be. Unfortunately Lucas didn't move from the center circle. Even then he was useless defensively when they counteracted--- some of the incidents MK alluded to when allowed them to get into the box and get a shot without a tackle. It hurts to say that because I really liked Lucas. But today he gave up on his Liverpool career.

[Zeb]

I'll be the token dissenting voice on Lucas. I didn't think he did much wrong yesterday. Lesson learnt about hanging his leg out in the penalty area, a lot of tracking back - the goal for them in particular shows that. He gave the ball away in the last 10 mins when trying to play 40 yard killer balls which is kind of what you'd be hoping he'd be trying to do when trying to pull City onto us to break against them. Don't want to go into yesterday's match on here though. The main board is bad enough.

Interesting question about luck or bad performances BazC. Could it just be that we're still short of two or three quality cover players? Or at least, the ones bought have not yet matured/acclimatised to the Premier league? I don't think we're anywhere near as far off as the press and whoppers are claiming but who seriously thought we'd not have our title challenge written off by the press until near the end of February this season?

Nice one with the vids Roy. Looking forward to a leisurely viewing, although my missus may not be best pleased - she won't believe me that Chelsea did not play level 3 football consistently enough to merit being included.

[Manila Kop]

--- Just for the pace, you don't think some caution was warranted with Robinho and Bellamy? Ireland can also be a tricky fucker. I think some defensive caution was warranted.

I have respect for City's attacking trident - I actually wouldn't mind having Ireland on our team - but look at how we were cutting through them in the first half.  They couldn't get the ball out to their strikers.  The strategy of doubling up on Robinho (Arby + Masch) and Bellamy (Carra + Skrtel) was working, we were only ever under pressure when they'd win the ball back from our midfield, not from starting their own attacks.  If we had Agger distributing the ball better from the back, they'd have even fewer opportunities to threaten Reina...instead we'd have Carra, Skrtel, Masch and to some extent Lucas dwelling on the ball, inviting pressure from City.  Notice how de Jong kept winning the ball in the second half and gradually pushed us back.  I thought we needed more incisive passing and composure there to keep the ball better, not last ditch defending - the things that we really miss when Xabi's not in the side.

As for the Mascherano substitution and the risk it posed---- I think Rafa delayed as long as possible knowing how risky it was. He also went on the assumption that Lucas is a bigger attacking threat--- or at least should be. Unfortunately Lucas didn't move from the center circle. Even then he was useless defensively when they counteracted--- some of the incidents MK alluded to when allowed them to get into the box and get a shot without a tackle. It hurts to say that because I really liked Lucas. But today he gave up on his Liverpool career.

That's a bit harsh don't you think?  Lucas shied away from defending more purposefully last night, maybe because he was coming off from his red card and conceding a penalty, so it's understandable.  He didn't show a lot of ball-winning ability, he was backing off and not intercepting the ball - I felt there were some passes he should've known to anticipate but instead he'd run back to cover a man ineffectively leaving the Man City midfielders free to keep the ball moving.  I wasn't at the match obviously, but on the TV it felt that there was a huge gap on the pitch in the second half between our attacking midfielders and the defensive midfielders - space that I would've wanted Lucas to patrol. He should've been pushing up - City were under a lot more pressure when Lucas was there to contest headers right in front of Given or trying to play one-twos with Yossi.  But is that Lucas's fault or Rafa's instructions at half-time?

[Mimi]

If we had Agger distributing the ball better from the back, they'd have even fewer opportunities to threaten Reina...instead we'd have Carra, Skrtel, Masch and to some extent Lucas dwelling on the ball, inviting pressure from City.  Notice how de Jong kept winning the ball in the second half and gradually pushed us back.  I thought we needed more incisive passing and composure there to keep the ball better, not last ditch defending - the things that we really miss when Xabi's not in the side.

--- Not the passing so much but the inability to keep hold of the ball. I think it was nervousness that made guys like Benayoun more sloppy than usual. Additionally, we backed off from making ourselves open for the pass. Carra can be slagged off for being ponderous but arguably there were instances where no one came to help him out. Alonso would have helped out greatly in that way. Also got to give credit to Man City--- they really upped the tackling in the second half and no matter how incisive your passing is, when the other team raises the physical stakes so much, you either respond equally or fade away like we did till we got the goal.

That's a bit harsh don't you think?

--- Well even if he holds out hope, I don't think Rafa will feel so inclined to give the second chance. In the other games where Lucas has been criticized, you could see the effort he put in which justified the renewed faith. There was an enormous amount of faith placed in him when Mascherano went off. He shirked from it.

To be honest, it was not really the defensive part of his game which irritated me.

  But is that Lucas's fault or Rafa's instructions at half-time?

Why would Rafa want Lucas to make himself even more ineffective? If that was the case, why would he stick with him rather than Mascherano when we were chasing the goal?