Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[royhendo]

Milan derby on BBC3 and the BBC website tonight. Think after Valentine's Day, I'll be allowed to watch it Roy Hodgson is one of the pundits, always found him an interesting manager. With the Mancs playing them soon , this fan analysis is quite interesting of how Fulham play against 'big' teams: http://timesonline.typepad.com/fanzine_fanzone/2008/12/fulham-how-to-t.html

Really enjoyed that Zeb, thanks

[Manila Kop]

Anyone watch the Eredivisie?  I wonder how much truth there is to this 'Total Football 2.0'.

Van Gaal's organic approach produces Total Football 2.0 with AZ
No longer can it be said that AZ lead the Eredivisie by default because PSV, Ajax and Feyenoord are having an off-year
Leander Schaerlackens

Louis van Gaal has lost his religion. And in so doing, he has contrived a new one. By relinquishing his former belief system and marrying it to a more modern approach, Van Gaal has, with AZ, reinvented Total Football. Call it Total Football 2.0, if you will.

Total Football, as it was developed during the late 60s and early 70s, was in need of an update in order to accommodate the pace and skill of modern football, as it had become largely impractical. The system had been efficient in its time because it provided a certain quickness and appreciation for possession that stodgy oppositions lacked. But teams are no longer slow and static and acknowledge the perils of leaving the other team on the ball.

The maniacal pressing and high offside trap that Total Football prescribes – in order to keep the field small when out of possession and as wide as possible when in possession to retain the ball – is unsustainable today. The number of games and the pace at which they're played have become prohibitive in that regard. As it turns out, according to Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid: A History of Football Tactics, even the great Ajax of the 70s couldn't really pull it off either. Their team doctor had them on a steady diet of amphetamines, painkillers and muscle-relaxants. Van Gaal's Ajax of the mid-90s managed it only by virtue of having mostly players aged 18-22.

Furthermore, many of the modern players are specialists, unprepared to play every position on their vertical axis, the way the rapid swapping of positions of Total Football demands. It takes a decade or so for teams to learn how to instinctively switch spots. Today, clubs cycle through players so quickly that they haven't the time to master the system, whereas the Ajax teams of the 70s and 90s had been staffed largely from within, growing up together and on the system in the academy. And besides, players know they're more valuable if they play one position well, rather than being passable at two or three.

In Total Football, the individual becomes a cog in the machinery of the greater good. Self-sacrifice is irreconcilable with the modern footballer. Ironically, the blame for that lies with Johan Cruyff, the on-field brain behind Total Football's glory days during the 70s with Ajax and Holland, who became the first football star to cross over into pop culture as an icon of 60s rebellion but also of self-aggrandisement.

At face value, AZ's organically grown new method appears to be the mortal enemy of the Dutch football school because of its reluctant style. But on closer inspection, one finds more similarities than differences.

Built on the foundation of Total Football, AZ's game is to sit back and wait for their opponents to overstretch themselves and then break out. Their skilled, lightning-quick strikers are sufficiently superior to their guards to capitalise on only a handful of chances.

Van Gaal's system allows for more flair, giving the individual more room for improvisation, and is less stringent about formations – he's had his team play in at least four different shapes this year. AZ still apply asphyxiating pressure on their opponents, but they do so largely in their own half, rather than over the whole field. And when they gain possession they try to cross the field in three passes or fewer, usually ending in a through-ball for the strikers to run on to. They attack, in other words, in short and quick bursts and then dedicate themselves to letting the opposition do the work.

On Saturday, the new system withstood its greatest test yet at a reborn PSV – for one half anyway. While hounding PSV when they had the ball, AZ easily gained possession in the first half, resulting in two goals: Gill Swerts was able to head in a Stijn Schaars corner before a classic AZ attack provoked a penalty. After a save by the sure-handed Sergio Romero, Swerts played the ball on to Moussa Dembιlι who, after a brief dribble, played a perfect through-ball to Demy de Zeeuw who was tripped up in the box. De Zeeuw missed his penalty but Maarten Martens converted the rebound.

Sitting back backfired in the second half, though, as a sloppier AZ saw a spirited PSV squeeze two goals past them through Danny Koevermans, who was ousted from AZ by Van Gaal two years ago. The 2–2 draw was fair, but ideologically, AZ were plainly superior. And the argument can no longer be made that AZ lead the Eredivisie by default because PSV, Ajax and Feyenoord are having an off-year. For AZ have now gone undefeated for five months and this weekend was their first failure to win in almost three months.

"I'm very disappointed," said Van Gaal afterwards, after warning that he rated PSV more than his own squad before the game. "I was once up 3–0 with Barcelona against Valencia and we lost 4–3 at home. That's possible in football. It was a real match with lots of battle but lots of mistakes too."

"If you go ahead 2–0 at PSV's stadium, you can't give it away," AZ's captain, Stijn Schaars, said. "I really don't even think they got any chances." "When you're behind 2–0 against the soon-to-be champions, you can be satisfied with a point," PSV's Koevermans added.

On Sunday, in an unusually tame classic – which was anything but that – Ajax weren't good but Feyenoord were even worse. A few hungry Ajax players sufficed for a 2–0 victory, even though Ajax hit the post and crossbar four times. While Real Madrid checks its receipt for Klaas-Jan Huntelaar for wording on its returns policy, Ajax sorely lack a finisher like, say, Huntelaar.

"The total decay of Feyenoord, the almost unrecognisable powerhouse of yore … evoked a deep sense of pity," Charles Bromet wrote in De Volkskrant. "Because what on earth were they doing, the confused footballers of caretaker manager [Leon] Vlemmings? There wasn't a single player capable of staying calm when in possession."

In another poor game, Steve McClaren's FC Twente were bailed out by an early red card for last-placed FC Volendam, who had been superior and had brashly gone ahead via a penalty in the sixth minute. Twente eventually laboured to a 2–1 win through a goal by Marko Arnautovic and a penalty by Blaise N'Kufo.

Results: Willem II 0–2 FC Utrecht; ADO 1–0 De Graafschap; NAC 1–0 Roda JC; FC Twente 2–1 FC Volendam; PSV 2–2 AZ; FC Groningen 2–0 Heracles; NEC 1–1 Heerenveen; Sparta 0–0 Vitesse; Ajax 2–0 Feyenoord.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/feb/16/leander-schaerlaeckens-eredivisie-dutch-football

[LF]

His second most prolific season was actually 1995-96 when he hit 10 league goals. He was just 20 when the season started. And how old was Giggs when he made his sensational debut season? Even younger I would think.

I believe we constantly underestimate how devastating players can be in their late teens/early 20s. We have this fixed notion that players peak at 28-32. This is often a comforting tale that players tell themselves when they begin to see some of their physical powers falling off. Clearly a certain kind of player will peak at 30 and beyond. They tend to be cerebral - Sheringham's a classic example, but McAllister is too - and (I bet) Alonso. But others quite clearly peak in the dawn of their careers. It pays to play them early.

It's not about how he did though, but rather how he was played. There wasn't any major expectations on Scholes and he started only around 18-20 games that season, most of them cause Cantona was suspended. This has nothing to do with player peaks etc but more about their development. I think players playing too many games at a young age can be detrimental to their development. Gigg's is extremely talented and extremely lucky with injuries as well.

[hassinator]

Anyway, some more on the Chelsea soap opera.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/chelsea/4629304/Jose-Mourinho-wants-Chelsea-return.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/feb/15/guus-hiddink-chelsea-duncan-castles

nice articles both roy and the mourinho quotes are so telling in light of our comments about the cult of the leader:

"Why have Chelsea suffered so much since I left? Because I left,” said Mourinho.

whereas we prospered when shanks left and paisley came on board so no matter how charismatic the ultimate manager was as an individual he left a structure in place.

interesting also that chelsea are considering going after ajax's chief scout when the club seems to be in the doldrums at the moment but the most telling comment was this from the guardian:

His wealth diminished by the credit crunch, Abramovich oversaw a series of spending cuts. Chelsea recently attempted to quash reports that the club is for sale, with legal action and a reclassification of roughly half of the £0.7bn Abramovich had loaned the club by June 2008 as equity to demonstrate "a continued and strengthened commitment from the shareholder".

Financial analysts think otherwise, arguing that the measure suggested someone "dressing up the balance sheet in preparation for a sale".

i wonder how well the chelsea fans would react if sugar daddy really was about to do one?

[hassinator]

It's not about how he did though, but rather how he was played. There wasn't any major expectations on Scholes and he started only around 18-20 games that season, most of them cause Cantona was suspended. This has nothing to do with player peaks etc but more about their development. I think players playing too many games at a young age can be detrimental to their development. Gigg's is extremely talented and extremely lucky with injuries as well.

hey lf i hear you but giggs made his debut at 17, was a first team regular at 18 and still starting at 35 years old so clearly ducking all those friendly internationals for his country have helped keep him going in the top flight.

[Hank Scorpio]

Thanks MK, as usual, for the interesting links and articles.

[NIGLIV]

Anyone watch the Eredivisie?  I wonder how much truth there is to this 'Total Football 2.0'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/feb/16/leander-schaerlaeckens-eredivisie-dutch-football

I have just watched some of their wins this season. I wouldn't exactly call it total football (the epitome of level 3). It's more of letting attackers attack and defenders, defend. A lot of teams in the eredivisie play a high line defense and so AZ invites the opposing team to attack and then hit on the break. They always have an attacker waiting on the shoulder of the opposing defenders; counter attacking that is to say.

I would brand it an effective high level 2 football because the attacking patterns are seriously refined on the training ground and the system relies quite heavily on pace, flair and final pass. I think a deep defending team might do them damage, but then again they have effective dribblers (I use "effective " because it works again most defenders in that league, might be different on the continent) who can do the odd magic.

None of theirs centre backs do any incisive runs, and I don't think they use their fullbacks enough. No play really goes through the centre as they are played mainly on the flanks. Like I mentioned earlier,its attackers and defenders doing theirs parts.

It looks very pretty at times but the risks they are exposed to are indeed scary and could be very costly against better teams. I would have to say that from the way they play, a lot of emphasis in training is placed on the attack as they produce very different patterns of attack.

As a sidenote and perharps something that could be thrown more light on in this magnificent thread.I would like to know your opinions on the development of attackers and defenders in a level 2 team compared to a level 3 team. This is somewhat in relation to the discussion Yorky and co are having.

Emphasis on three bands of footballers; decent, very good and world class is paramount to this discussion. In my opinion defenders blooded and developed in the level 3 teams (or teams tending towards that level) have a good chance of being in that very good - world class bracket, while attackers esp. centre forwards blooded in and developed in level 3 teams are rarely in the world class bracket. They are usually in the "good" brackets. They are either moved on (most of the time) where they sometime get in the "very good bracket" AND stop there becoming the "big fish in the small pond" or they become squad players in the L3 teams.

Conversely, L2 teams tend to produce better attackers who then go to round off their games in L3 teams and end up in the very good-world class bracket.

Having mentioned this, it is worth noting that this is very sensitive to outfield positions and age brackets-and hence peak years. I think it will be a backward step for a L3 team to accommodate a "peaked" L2 attacker or defender.

I think goalies, central defenders and central midfielders within a level environment will develop easily and quickly compared to attackers. I know Yorky and co will see a corelation here for the youth introduction.

Finally as expected, there will always be exceptions. Cream always rises and there are "freak" cases where world-class attacker are "born" and developed in L3 teams where they become "beasty". Also there are cases where world class defenders are "born" and developed in L2 teams. These are rare cases indeed.

As the aim of this thread is L3 football, I'll close this saying that peaked L2 attackers and defenders are quite dangerous to the L3 setup as they up their weakness which have little or no hope for improvement. They should only be brought in "if necessary" to "do a job" (free transfer?).
Level 3 players (including the freak cases mentioned above) "born" and developed within a L3 system have a tendency for longevity (34 years+). This could be someones thesis  .

Thoughts.................

[LF]

hey lf i hear you but giggs made his debut at 17, was a first team regular at 18 and still starting at 35 years old so clearly ducking all those friendly internationals for his country have helped keep him going in the top flight.

Giggs is a player on the level of the all time greats and seems a great professional in keeping himself fit, also so damn lucky with no major injury in 18 + years of football it's no wonder he can still go. One of the interesting things I've heard about Ferguson was that he got rid of Ince cause he was some sort of bad influence on Giggs. Now Ince was a very good player but it showed a lot of guts for Ferguson to get rid of one of his important players to keep Giggs off bad influence.

But not everyone can keep up without breaking down. Fabregas had his burnout, we don't know how his recent injury could effect him. Lot's of young footballers playing lots of game,  being the main star couldn't really handle all that. Specially now when certain teams have to play 3 games a week, young players in starting positions really have it to do.

[Zeb]

It probably also helped Giggs (and Scholes) that they had more media loving team mates. Lee Sharpe and Beckham were very photogenic copy and helped pull most of the media attention away from the quieter pair.

[b_joseph]

Giggs did get injuries, LF. In the mid 90's I remember him getting a bit of trouble for a while with his hamstrings.
But that also plays into your point of the young players being burned out because thats the nature of the hamstring injury.

[hassinator]

One of the interesting things I've heard about Ferguson was that he got rid of Ince cause he was some sort of bad influence on Giggs. Now Ince was a very good player but it showed a lot of guts for Ferguson to get rid of one of his important players to keep Giggs off bad influence.

and hughes; and whiteside; and mcgrath; and staam; and van nistlecheat. in terms of maintaining level three standards he has never been scared of the tough decisions.  like rafa but ferguson has earned the right to a lot of his media support as he's been proven to have worked for the greater good of the team. 

[b_joseph]

nice articles both roy and the mourinho quotes are so telling in light of our comments about the cult of the leader:

"Why have Chelsea suffered so much since I left? Because I left,” said Mourinho.

whereas we prospered when shanks left and paisley came on board so no matter how charismatic the ultimate manager was as an individual he left a structure in place.

interesting also that chelsea are considering going after ajax's chief scout when the club seems to be in the doldrums at the moment but the most telling comment was this from the guardian:

His wealth diminished by the credit crunch, Abramovich oversaw a series of spending cuts. Chelsea recently attempted to quash reports that the club is for sale, with legal action and a reclassification of roughly half of the £0.7bn Abramovich had loaned the club by June 2008 as equity to demonstrate "a continued and strengthened commitment from the shareholder".

Financial analysts think otherwise, arguing that the measure suggested someone "dressing up the balance sheet in preparation for a sale".

i wonder how well the chelsea fans would react if sugar daddy really was about to do one?

To be fair Hass. In a rational world, coming 2nd in the league on the final day..coming within a penalty of winning the European Cup...coming a late goal vs Spurs away from winning the Carling Cup. In a rational world were people have common sense, that is a pretty good season in the grand scheme of things.

Thats the problem with Chelsea. They genuinely had a decent season last year but for some reason, everybody scoffs at it because they didnt get the little bit of luck needed to be victorious.


Goodness, If Terry doesnt slip. Avram Grant leads Chelsea to their 1st ever European Cup and then gets sacked after winning it for not being a big enough name.

[Robinred]

Good stuff as usual (I've been absent for a few days, but decided a while back, like Degs, that this is now the 'default' port of call rather than the main board).

Changing the topic (and remembering that Roy's "name and shame" thread about zonal naysayers was locked after a couple of pages), did anyone catch Aldo - the real one, not Aldridge8 - on .tv tonight? He pulled no punches; according to him, the players are uncomfortable with zm, their body language proves it. Teams apparently come and park the bus, in the knowledge that they'll get a set-piece at some point that will expose our weakness - that's their strategy. Furthermore they play for free-kicks deliberately to do this. (Bolton, incidentally used Djiouf in precisely this role, so he's not necessarily whistling in the complete dark). Anyway, Aldo is already on a growing list of ex-reds whose depth of understanding about the game (I mean lack of) is truly staggering. Charlie Nicholas, Tim Sherwood, Matt le Tissier, Paul Merson et al, you are not alone...

[BazC]

The thing with zonal marking is that last season, for the first time ever (in general) under Rafa, it was continually exposed. It got to the point where I was truly terrified we'd give a freekick/corner away because I knew we were shite at defending them. Rafa changed it towards the end of the season when I'm pretty sure we had a half zonal half man to man system going on.

This season it was ok, but lately it's been getting found out again.

I think the reason is that opposition managers are starting to clock on to how to beat the system and there's also the point that our defenders aren't always strong enough to deal with the attacks. The reason for this is because I think zonal marking is susceptible to the attackers running into the fray- defenders just don't have the momentum to be able to cope with a good header of the ball having a run at the cross. It was solved last season by having defenders on the edge of the box tracking these players- and we stopped leaking those set piece goals.

Perhaps we need to reevaluate the system again, but I don't think so. This season, unlike last, it just looks to be poor execution in the current system rather than any real flaws in it.

[b_joseph]

Robin - Its unfair to say that Aldo doesnt understand the game. He has an opinion on how to defend certain situations, an opinion that is shared by a good amount of Managers around the country/Continent.

Its like in the NFL, One team likes to defend using the 4-3 style and other teams like the 3-4 style. It doesnt mean one team doesnt understand the game, it just means they have a preference.

[Manila Kop]

Hey NIGLIV, thanks for sharing your thoughts on AZ...it'll be interesting seeing them in the Champions League next season given how badly the Dutch teams have done over the past 2-3 years.  If they end up getting caught out, it'll show even more how far the Eredivisie has fallen behind other European leagues.

I understand your point about good L2 players getting caught out in L3, especially the attacking ones...we just saw that with Keane didn't we?  Same with Crouch, Bellamy and Cisse before him.  How would you explain Torres though?  He's certainly a fit with the standards of Level 3 football (technique, tactical awareness, team play, 'universality') but he was not as 'complete' Atletico.

[RedMichelFerri]

Hey NIGLIV, thanks for sharing your thoughts on AZ...it'll be interesting seeing them in the Champions League next season given how badly the Dutch teams have done over the past 2-3 years.  If they end up getting caught out, it'll show even more how far the Eredivisie has fallen behind other European leagues.

I understand your point about good L2 players getting caught out in L3, especially the attacking ones...we just saw that with Keane didn't we?  Same with Crouch, Bellamy and Cisse before him.  How would you explain Torres though?  He's certainly a fit with the standards of Level 3 football (technique, tactical awareness, team play, 'universality') but he was not as 'complete' Atletico.

I watched few of their games (last week they played against PSV). NIGLIV is spot on in his assesment. The way they get exposed in defense, I think most of the premiership teams (Top Half) will cause serious problem for them (against PSV they were 2-0 up after 30 mins and were getting exposed in defense time and again. They allowed PSV to draw and With bit quality in finishing, PSV would have won it comfortably in second half). It will be interesting to see how they will do in CL next season.

       Though credit where its due. They are 11 points ahead in their league. Van Gaal took back his resignation on players request and this year they have taken a big leap. Though they will find CL difficult (just like PSV. At least PSV have more experience of Europe compared to them).

[NIGLIV]

Hey NIGLIV, thanks for sharing your thoughts on AZ...it'll be interesting seeing them in the Champions League next season given how badly the Dutch teams have done over the past 2-3 years.  If they end up getting caught out, it'll show even more how far the Eredivisie has fallen behind other European leagues.

I understand your point about good L2 players getting caught out in L3, especially the attacking ones...we just saw that with Keane didn't we?  Same with Crouch, Bellamy and Cisse before him.  How would you explain Torres though?  He's certainly a fit with the standards of Level 3 football (technique, tactical awareness, team play, 'universality') but he was not as 'complete' Atletico.

Cheers for the post M.K.

Torres is a very good example of a player pinched while still developing under a "high" level 2 team. These high level 2 teams are almost always in the top 6 in top leagues or top 2 in average or above average teams. Remember that we are dealing with "high probability of success" rather than "certain success" due to other variables- the leading one being mentality (hi Rafa). Analysing further we see that Torres possesses that rare natural talent. Here's a snippet from his recent interview.

"I've learnt a lot. It's been a real pleasure for me to work with Rafa. At Atletico I played more on instinct, doing my own thing; here I have to learn about movement and positioning, about the team."

This as we know is not enough but a good start nonetheless. He carried a huge responsibility at a very early age making the need for improvement "compulsory" rather than mandatory. he knew he couldn't afford to fail. This made his mentality as good as it gets. It meant that he could step up to the plate anywhere else. This means that while sleeping he'll still be improving for a long time. He has a stepped up to the new challenge immensely and his game is still improving a scary thought. A quick example is his less reliance on pace (still too much IMO for now) and more on positioning and refining his dribbling to get past if needed. Also as we saw in the Portsmouth and Bolton matches, he has learnt that his mere presence draws at least 3 defenders and disrupts defences hence making a lay off pass the best and most deadly weapon. His passing has drastically improved (I haven't really seen this mentioned). It was no surprise he made many poor passes last season as he was used to turning and running goalwards all the time at atleti (he had a great great responsibility at Atletico). I will hazard guess that even this instinct to cause a goal within moments is the key to the link between himself and Gerrard (they usually have no more than 2 passes to make a goal).

This leads to what I'd label as a "transfer window" in these kinds of players. This is the period when they develop fastest. They are the so-called "prospects" at this period. The age range is "usually" btw 18-24. Other exception exists as well but are very rare. Exceedance of this "transfer window" leads to little or no room for development and their flaws from training, body maintenance, tactical awareness, "hit and run football" (typical L2 football - Hi Bellamy and Keane) etc become typical habits. They are usually the top footballers or icons of the "high level 2" teams or at least top 3. The key is identifying them in this "transfer window". Some managers have a knack for this ( you know them). They can literally smell them. Their price tags are usually very high then but it means nothing because the gamble is nearly a certainty. A few successful examples would be Ronaldo, Rooney, C. Ronaldo, Etoo, Villa, Nasri, Torres, Robben, Dinho etc. Jury's still out on Nani, Babel, Anderson, Walcott etc. Acquiring a player from a high level 2 team outside this transfer window is a huge risk. This window might be short or long depending on the individual.

The next obvious variable is the mentality. Young captains (responsibility wise) increase chances of success because of their mental advantage. As captains little or no room for irresponsibility on or off the pitch exists. Added to that emphasis on getting their job and those of others done as well as consistently performing miracles will only help smoothen their game making the jump to L3 teams easier with increased chances of success. Mentally weak but talented youths rarely make the jump and it take miracle managers to take them to another level.

These criteria are not the be all and end all, but the results of these two should reduce chances of failure.

On longevity of these "level 3" players, the likes of Raul, Del Piero, H. Larsson (sp?), Totti, Pippo Inzaghi (not pure L3 but you get the idea), Makaay, Figo, Nedved, Zidane, Guti, Pires, Scholl come to mind. Defenders like Maldini (all hail), Nesta, Baresi, Lucio R. Carlos, Cafu, Serginho, Cannavaro (sp?), Ayala are in the 30+ bracket.

One can say that the players mentioned above even though having lost athleticism due to age are still very vital because of the concepts of L3 football deeply embedded in them during their developmental years.

I watched few of their games (last week they played against PSV). NIGLIV is spot on in his assessment. The way they get exposed in defense, I think most of the Premier League teams (Top Half) will cause serious problem for them (against PSV they were 2-0 up after 30 mins and were getting exposed in defense time and again. They allowed PSV to draw and With bit quality in finishing, PSV would have won it comfortably in second half). It will be interesting to see how they will do in CL next season.

       Though credit where its due. They are 11 points ahead in their league. Van Gaal took back his resignation on players request and this year they have taken a big leap. Though they will find CL difficult (just like PSV. At least PSV have more experience of Europe compared to them).

Yes RT, the European pedigree where you have 1 chance 1 goal players will literally pile them. Such teams usually depends on fast and athletic defenders who cant really defend. Winning the eredivisie might enable them organise the defense a wee bit more. But I can't see drastic improvement. As you said, it will be very interesting in the CL.

[Robinred]

Robin - Its unfair to say that Aldo doesnt understand the game. He has an opinion on how to defend certain situations, an opinion that is shared by a good amount of Managers around the country/Continent.

Its like in the NFL, One team likes to defend using the 4-3 style and other teams like the 3-4 style. It doesnt mean one team doesnt understand the game, it just means they have a preference.

I like Aldo, but I think you're being too kind - particularly if you saw the interview. Trust me, he was way ott and extremely unflattering about the whole concept, refusing to acknowledge that there was any merit in a system that has seen us beaten once in the league this season and with an impressive finish to last in goals conceded. It's not that I fail to see there's a debate to be had - it's when players who played when zm was not considered base their views on random goals against rather than the whole picture. Statistics are increasingly meaningful as more evidence is examined and the bigger the sample.

If Aldo is to escape the charge of Luddite-ism, he has to look at defensive performances over the long term - not knee-jerk about a selective handful of recent blips and then suggest throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Plus, if I'm honest, I strongly suspect zm is for Aldo a straw for him to grasp because deep down he's not convinced about Rafa's 'project'.

[Degs]

I prefer man-marking but I don't totally write-off zonal marking.

Since I was a little lad my favourite phrase on a footy pitch has always been, when a corner or free-kick is being prepared - "Pick a red/blue/green shirt and stick with him", "Don't let him beat you", "Match sizes", as I was the smallest player on the pitch with every team I played and as I was in the back line I always felt the inadequacy of not being able to be in the middle and get it out so I took the responsibility to organise the rest of them while I was the first man, if they ball came at my face then my face was getting cracked.

Now it's a bit different in Premiership football but the mental attitude is the same.  If you organise well enough you should never be beaten by your opposite number.  It's arrogance that there's nobody better but I still maintain to this day that if you zonal mark against a man who specialises in heading the ball you'll get caught out.

We've played against teams who used zonal marking against big Sammy and rubbed our hands together at the prospect.

Now we face teams that have specialists of their own, Tim Cahill in particular and there must be no better thought going through his head than "Nobody is picking me up".
We didn't learn our lesson after the first derby, give them space and they'll exploit it.

I knew this was the case and I broke my usual stance of 100% support at all costs because I knew what was coming.
As the team was preparing to defend the corner Lescott scored off I don't know what you lot saw on the telly but I saw Skrtel walk over to Cahill, hold his arm out at full length then move toward his zone.
I shouted about 5 fucking times as loud as I could "Don't just fuckin' look at him, mark up".
10 seconds later it's in the net, us having learned nothing.

I don't mind zonal marking against most teams as it works, but when they have a specialist in their ranks you have to stick a man on him.

But that's not my main argument with zonal marking, and this might sound soft, but zonal marking hinders our attacking play.

Zonal marking requires 11 men to be in and around the box.

So many times we've cleared the ball to the halfway line with nobody there.
Stick Babel and/or Torres on that halway line and they'll leave 2 men back for every one, less bodies in our box and if they don't do that and we clear it then Torres WILL score.

[hassinator]

Robin - Its unfair to say that Aldo doesnt understand the game. He has an opinion on how to defend certain situations, an opinion that is shared by a good amount of Managers around the country/Continent.

Its like in the NFL, One team likes to defend using the 4-3 style and other teams like the 3-4 style. It doesnt mean one team doesnt understand the game, it just means they have a preference.

hey joe i think aldo is a good egg but a proper 'old pro' and i think a lot of his comments come across as a pissed off fan in the pub after a few too many pints rather than reasoned criticism.  he's been pretty vehement in his criticism of the team and rafa without really addressing the figures and to be honest i've been pretty pissed off about it.

i think we all have our views on zonal marking - i'm for but with a degree of pragmatism in that certain players need to be targeted in certain situations.  this seemed to be the intention with cahill in the fa cup and for most of the game we defended pretty well ultimately losing out to a deflection.

degsy - as ever an informed and persuasive post.  if aldo put as much thought into his criticism i think i'd be up for paying him a bit more attention.

[Manila Kop]

Robinred, I don't think simply throwing in our defensive record (i.e. goals conceded) is a good substantiated defense of zonal marking.  A lot of that has to do with the fact that the teams we play against have minimal shots on goal from open play since they're playing deep in their own half.  I didn't see Aldo's interview, but I think our defending from set pieces has markedly deteriorated this season - off the top of my head we conceded from set pieces to Wigan, Portsmouth, Everton

Personally I would like to see number of goals conceded from set pieces vs. total set pieces taken against us and compare it to the record of say, Manchester United.  That way we can express the effectivity of zonal marking as a percentage - does it really concede less goals per attempt than man-marking, or are we markedly worse now than previous years when we were also using zonal marking.

[Degs]

I'm not having that the Wigan goal came form a "set piece", it was a pen and they should be taken as seperate.

I personally don't go in for the statistical analysis of how good or bad zonal and man marking is on set pieces because we have no comparison.

Under  Rafa we haven't man-marked.  For all we know we could go a season without conceding a single goal from a set piece through man marking, or conceded 15 of them.

For me the reason why we have such an impressive defensive set piece record is 2 fold:

1) We have a massive team.
Out of our first 11: Reina,  Skrtel, Arbeloa, Alonso, Gerrard, Kuyt, Riera, and Torres are all 6 feet or over.
Leaving only Aurelio, Carragher and Mascherano under it.

2) We have 11 men back at all times. Lots of congestion means less space to move, less chance of the ball breaking to the edge of the box, and more protection for the keeper (although this is something we very rarely do).

It's all well and good to say zonal marking is so great or man marking is so much better but until we ever see an alternative, and under Rafa we won't, there's no point in anybody having a go about it.  We don't concede enough to warrant a wholesale change especially to a system that it's main exponents consider the benefit of being that if something goes wrong you can point a finger.

I'm for man marking but not anti zonal marking.

[redmeanmachine]

More on zonal marking by Pellegrino:
http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N163265090216-0909.htm

First-team coach Mauricio Pellegrino today dismissed criticism of zonal marking - claiming Liverpool were among the best in the country at defending set pieces.

Some pundits question the zonal system employed by Rafa Benitez despite Pepe Reina winning three successive Golden Glove awards for most clean sheets in a Premier League season.
 
Pellegrino was at the heart of Valencia's defence when they won La Liga using zonal marking - and he insists it is serving Liverpool well despite lapses which led to goals against Portsmouth and Everton.
 
The Argentine told us: "My opinion is that people need to criticise the result, not the method. Before the last three games, we were among the best two teams at defending set pieces. Now, after these games, we are still among the top five teams at defending set pieces.
 
"At the end you have to choose one method - zonal or man marking. We chose this one because we trust it. Both methods can be good if you focus on your job and do it properly. The most important thing is not the method - it's the way you manage the method.
 
"We know we've made some mistakes and we are working on this to make sure we don't concede more goals, but we defend a lot of set plays - that's why the other teams will sometimes score goals."

I agree with Pellegrino. We need to "manage the method".

Degs, I respect your view but whether it's man or zonal marking it actually depends on individual's preference. I'm very sure there are equally as many goals conceded from man marking compared to zonal marking.

As in our case, Rafa is the man in charge and his preference is zonal-marking which he based it on Sacchi's ideas, and it has worked for him during his time at Valencia. There is no reason for him to change.

[royhendo]

Several reports in the papers that Hiddink held a public training session yesterday, which is interesting. Is it significant? Your squad has been complaining about a lack of intensity in training, and are reputedly agitators who wield too much power for the good of the club. What better way to fire one across their boughs than to expose their rear ends to the sharp blade of the bacon slicer? (Maybe I'm reading too much into it though.)

[hassinator]

Several reports in the papers that Hiddink held a public training session yesterday, which is interesting. Is it significant? Your squad has been complaining about a lack of intensity in training, and are reputedly agitators who wield too much power for the good of the club. What better way to fire one across their boughs than to expose their rear ends to the sharp blade of the bacon slicer? (Maybe I'm reading too much into it though.)

nope i think that's great reasoning.  plus it gives the fans a access which should give 'the new guy' a minor burst of approval.  he's coming into a 'mature' team with a lot of egos and clearly several cliques.  scholari seemed to skate the issue and tried to bring in brazilians to give him a bloc which didn't work so it seems hiddink is coming from a different angle.

[Guz-kop]

As the team was preparing to defend the corner Lescott scored off I don't know what you lot saw on the telly but I saw Skrtel walk over to Cahill, hold his arm out at full length then move toward his zone.
I shouted about 5 fucking times as loud as I could "Don't just fuckin' look at him, mark up".
10 seconds later it's in the net, us having learned nothing.

That is surprising because since last season I think we have been trying to mark one danger man out of the game against sides we think have 'danger men'. At Stamford Bridge I distinctly remember someone, might have been Xabi, concentrating solely on Carvalho. No zones, no areas, just making sure Carvalho doesn't get his head on the ball and same with Terry if I remember right.

[Robinred]

Robinred, I don't think simply throwing in our defensive record (i.e. goals conceded) is a good substantiated defense of zonal marking...Personally I would like to see number of goals conceded from set pieces vs. total set pieces taken against us and compare it to the record of say, Manchester United.  That way we can express the effectivity of zonal marking as a percentage - does it really concede less goals per attempt than man-marking, or are we markedly worse now than previous years when we were also using zonal marking.

Agree entirely. If my clumsily worded post gave the impression I was happy to correlate the two I apologise. The intention was to highlight how Aldo was guilty of a rant - rather than acknowledge that there was a debate to be had  -legitimised by our overall record at set plays and our generally good defensive record.

I too have misgivings about ALL our set-play strategies - including for example free kicks and corners for. When you consider the comparisons in this regard to (say) Mourinho's Chelsea and Allardyce's Bolton, then throw into the mix Rafa's alleged attention to detail, something doesn't add up.

[b_joseph]

Several reports in the papers that Hiddink held a public training session yesterday, which is interesting. Is it significant? Your squad has been complaining about a lack of intensity in training, and are reputedly agitators who wield too much power for the good of the club. What better way to fire one across their boughs than to expose their rear ends to the sharp blade of the bacon slicer? (Maybe I'm reading too much into it though.)

Blah, one session is just one session.

Lets see how they react as a team when Villa knock them around this weekend. They wont be singing ''Cumba-Ya'' after that.
Chelsea have enough veteran players that could have spoken to Scolari about their differences and rallied together as a club to right themselves. But instead, we are left with the stench of the media and players telling us the old '' ( Insert name here ) doesnt understand English football or methods ''.
Arrogant twats...I detest Chelsea.

[hassinator]

I too have misgivings about ALL our set-play strategies - including for example free kicks and corners for. When you consider the comparisons in this regard to (say) Mourinho's Chelsea and Allardyce's Bolton, then throw into the mix Rafa's alleged attention to detail, something doesn't add up.

i agree with this.  we are shit at set plays and in all my time supporting liverpool i don't think i ever remember us being good at corners.  how can that be? 

another reason that barry would have been useful to us this year not least as it means stevie g could be on the edge of the area to receive corners from the left rather than taking them

[Degs]

Our attacking of set pieces is dire as well, absolutely no movement at all in the box except when Sammy plays.

Eight 6ft+ players and we can't score off corners.

[Hank Scorpio]

Our attacking of set pieces is dire as well, absolutely no movement at all in the box except when Sammy plays.

Eight 6ft+ players and we can't score off corners.

When you have only 4 players in the box compared with around double that number for the opposition then you are always going to struggle to score.

When we have a set piece, our emphasis is not getting hit on the counter attack rather than trying to score.

[Degs]

When you have only 4 players in the box compared with around double that number for the opposition then you are always going to struggle to score.

When we have a set piece, our emphasis is not getting hit on the counter attack rather than trying to score.

Every cross we do is an outswinger as well, meaning the keeper is safe to stay on his line.

Add to that the useless short corners and we're crying out for the likes of aurelio to deliver from the right and Alonso from the left.

[hassinator]

Every cross we do is an outswinger as well, meaning the keeper is safe to stay on his line.

Add to that the useless short corners and we're crying out for the likes of aurelio to deliver from the right and Alonso from the left.

arrrrrggggh!  i fucking hate short corners.   remember the mancs used to get sherringham to try and hit a shortish corner on the volley from the edge of the area?  we don't even deliver on attempts at something like that.  its so strange given that most teams just below us - well villa and everton - make set pieces the core of their game.  definitely an area to improve.

[hassinator]

Several reports in the papers that Hiddink held a public training session yesterday, which is interesting. Is it significant? Your squad has been complaining about a lack of intensity in training, and are reputedly agitators who wield too much power for the good of the club. What better way to fire one across their boughs than to expose their rear ends to the sharp blade of the bacon slicer? (Maybe I'm reading too much into it though.)

interesting comments on the training and quotes from terry suggesting a perhaps more rafa-esque approach:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/feb/18/chelsea-aston-villa-mancienne-terry-hiddink

Abramovich watched training from the stands yesterday as Hiddink flitted from joking with his players to directing the routines alongside Ray Wilkins and Paul Clement. "There are new styles, new methods," Terry said when asked how training differed from Luiz Felipe Scolari's regime. "[Hiddink's] come in and training's looked sharp – everyone's fighting for their places again. He's got his methods and his tactics that he wants to get across to us in the first three or four days.

"He has managed to get his ideas on tactics across. He's implemented quite a few things early on. He's got two more days to do that as well, which I'm sure he'll take full advantage of. But training today was good, nice and sharp, the way he wants us to play, the way he wants us to press more and play higher up the pitch. So there are few things like that. He's made a few changes." The manager himself remains ­pragmatic about what he can achieve in a spell at Stamford Bridge that might not extend beyond May. He was introduced to the crowd before training and warned the fans that it was a working session. "I am not here to entertain you all morning," he said. "I'm here to give the entertainment through the team. We hope to make a very good end to the season."

joe - i fucking hate chelsea too but hiddinks moves do suggest a 'new broom' at the very least and access to the fans and media is a good way of getting that message across.

[Hank Scorpio]

Every cross we do is an outswinger as well, meaning the keeper is safe to stay on his line.

Add to that the useless short corners and we're crying out for the likes of aurelio to deliver from the right and Alonso from the left.

Shall we bitch some more?

How come a monster like Martin Skrtel is a mouse in the penalty area when it comes to set pieces?  He attacks the ball so well when in his own half but put him in the penalty area when we are trying to score and he is non-existent.  Defending a set piece and attacking a set piece are different things but surely a bit of tweaking and you are there.

We have a weapon we do not even know how to use.

[Hank Scorpio]

RAWK European Team of the Month

I tried to get this going a little while back but it died a quick death as nobody was really interested.

Anyway, thought I would throw it out to those who frequent this thread and see what you think.

I know a lot of us watch different types of football so it would be great to get your opinion and share knowledge.

Let me know what you think.  All views are appreciated.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

I'm more concerned about attacking set pieces than defensive ones. Even when we're going through a bad patch defending them, I know we'll improve again. I can't say the same for attacking ones (well, mainly corners). The problem is two fold: Gerrard is poor at taking them and even when there is a decent delivery into the box we are completely unable to do anything useful with it. Anytime when we look like we're improving on them, we take a step backwards. I wonder what on earth we actually do in training with them.

I think one of the problems is that Rafa tries to over complicate them, which would explain why we use the short corner so often. With Rafa's level of insight into tactics and analysing plays, it really is woeful how poor we are at them. Not even Sammy Lee's arrival has helped a great deal.

I think our centre backs have scored one goal from them all season, which is a shocking return for a team challenging for the title. The annoying thing is that improving this would improve our chances of overcoming teams with ten men behind the ball, and therefore our chances of the title.

[royhendo]

I have just watched some of their wins this season. I wouldn't exactly call it total football (the epitome of level 3). It's more of letting attackers attack and defenders, defend...

Really enjoyed that - thanks for taking the time NIGLIV!

As the aim of this thread is L3 football, I'll close this saying that peaked L2 attackers and defenders are quite dangerous to the L3 setup as they up their weakness which have little or no hope for improvement. They should only be brought in "if necessary" to "do a job" (free transfer?).
Level 3 players (including the freak cases mentioned above) "born" and developed within a L3 system have a tendency for longevity (34 years+). This could be someones thesis  .

Thoughts.................

Could you expand on this mate?

If I'm reading it right, you're describing the crux of the 'transition' problem really - the move from athletic and organised counter attacking football to what's essentially pressure-based and intelligent football.

Yorky hinted at this a while back in the post where he suggests someone like Alonso will mature into a better player into his mid and late 30s, and many of the older fellas in the AC Milan camp spring to mind - they're more toreadors eh? Pires is the other instant example.

[royhendo]

Hey NIGLIV, thanks for sharing your thoughts on AZ...it'll be interesting seeing them in the Champions League next season given how badly the Dutch teams have done over the past 2-3 years.  If they end up getting caught out, it'll show even more how far the Eredivisie has fallen behind other European leagues.

I understand your point about good L2 players getting caught out in L3, especially the attacking ones...we just saw that with Keane didn't we?  Same with Crouch, Bellamy and Cisse before him.  How would you explain Torres though?  He's certainly a fit with the standards of Level 3 football (technique, tactical awareness, team play, 'universality') but he was not as 'complete' Atletico.

Yeah - sorry - I wouldn't have posted that last post if I'd read this first... what MK said!