Topic: Lost: Steven Gerrard's football skills... and other items including:

[gritsvanilla]

The biggest problem this side is not Gerrards lack of form but enough quality near to his throughout the squad to compensate us when he does have a bad run.

On the evidence of the last season and a half i don't think that statement could be more wrong, it's not like this is an overnight thing is it? He's been off form now for over a year in which time Finnan, Carra, Agger, Arbeloa, Pennant, Masch have all played consistently well, the whole team is going through a bit of a crises at the mo but Gerrards form has been suspect for much longer...oh and until Benitez gets him out of the Centre i can't see any improvement to our current form and on the evidence of his attitude over the last year or so he certainly isn't fit to be captaining this great club.

[MFletcher]

not fickle at all

they just hate Steven Gerrard

I just wish they would wear "I hate Stevie G" t-shirts on matchday instead of being a load of snidey c*nts

I don't hate Steven Gerrard. I hate his current attitude, which makes it look like he doesn't care. I really don't approve of the club captain sulking in the middle of the park whenever we're losing and in dire need of some inspiration.

[MFletcher]

On the evidence of the last season and a half i don't think that statement could be more wrong, it's not like this is an overnight thing is it? He's been off form now for over a year in which time Finnan, Carra, Agger, Arbeloa, Pennant, Masch have all played consistently well, the whole team is going through a bit of a crises at the mo but Gerrards form has been suspect for much longer...oh and until Benitez gets him out of the Centre i can't see any improvement to our current form and on the evidence of his attitude over the last year or so he certainly isn't fit to be captaining this great club.

Those comments are completely true, but will be as popular as a fart in a spacesuit amongst some of the posters on here.

[gritsvanilla]

not fickle at all

they just hate Steven Gerrard

I just wish they would wear "I hate Stevie G" t-shirts on matchday instead of being a load of snidey c*nts

You've brought so much to the debate mate..thanks.

Jeez most of the pro-Gerrard brigade are embarrassing in their defence of him, i ask you Partridge are you happy seeing the captain of this great club, shirking his responsibilities, looking disinterested and sulking around the pitch? If he wasn't Steven Gerrard local lad made good the criticism would be way beyond what he actually recieves, take a look at the reaction to Momo's 1 bad performance this season on Wednesday for an example.

[RayO'Biscan]

Bring back Stevie G from the latter half of the 2003-2004 season!

[-HH-]

I don't hate Steven Gerrard. I hate his current attitude, which makes it look like he doesn't care. I really don't approve of the club captain sulking in the middle of the park whenever we're losing and in dire need of some inspiration.

Amen.

Anyways, I'll leave people to this debate and I've said my piece. It can hardly be a fickle viewpoint given that it's one I've held for a long time. A happy Steven Gerrard with his attitude on song would be massive benefit to this football club, but when he's not like that, which he hasn't been for any length of time since mid 2006 he's not the same player at all. If it's fickle to be worried about that whilst giving him all the support he needs in the ground then I don't know what the world is coming to.

[Rushian]

We are hardly saying it is all Gerrard's fault. I fail to see how anyone can argue against the fact that Gerrard's attitude is - at the minute - very poor and that Rafa has accommodated him in the side in a variety of positions.

Playing poorly does not equal a poor attitude.

Seems I'll having to be handing out more of those psychology degrees printed on bog roll.

[Yorkykopite]

I don't think there's a club manager in the world who would not want Gerrard in his team. But I also don't know of a top European team that could simply and easily slot Gerrard into its formation. That's the challenge for any manager with Gerrard at their disposal. Rafa's been wrestling with it for three years and he still hasn't really solved the basic question of where to play him.

Gerrard is a phenomenon of the modern game. Athletic, dynamic, bold, ambitious and occasionally frightening. When he plays well he's a force of nature. It seems, at times, that he can beat players by sheer personality. They feel his desire and something dies within them. We'd be mad to want to let that go.

But he's not a technically assured footballer. There is no margin for error in Gerrard. When the pulverising runs are no longer working everything else becomes frayed. He lacks that ability to play from memory that other great players have just as he lacks that sediment of basic football intelligence. Alonso, or Vieira, or Roy Keane could go through bad patches and still have an influential game.  They draw on something deep within themselves that Gerrard lacks.

At the moment there are two very bad compromises going on at Liverpool.
1. Rafa's compromise is that he's playing Gerrard where Gerrard apparently wants to be played - in central midfield.
2. Gerrard's compromise is that he's playing the central midfield role in the way that Rafa wants him to - with great discipline and caution.
These compromises, I think, are strangling the life out of the player. He should be played elsewhere.

Where? Personally I prefer him in a wide position. Obi's correct about this. The top European teams have put their expansive talents in wide positions in recent seasons. Regardless of what the ignorant football press says in this country, Gerrard's best games for Liverpool under Rafa have been out on the right. The other alternative is playing 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Masch-Alonso-Gerrard in the middle and two wide men supporting Torres.

At the very least Rafa would do well to liberate Gerrard. To set up a formation that allows for a less disciplined Gerrard to operate. Both coach and captain need to take more risks.

[Finn Solomon]

They feel his desire and something dies within them.

 

[Johnnyboy1973]

On the evidence of the last season and a half i don't think that statement could be more wrong, it's not like this is an overnight thing is it? He's been off form now for over a year in which time Finnan, Carra, Agger, Arbeloa, Pennant, Masch have all played consistently well, the whole team is going through a bit of a crises at the mo but Gerrards form has been suspect for much longer...oh and until Benitez gets him out of the Centre i can't see any improvement to our current form and on the evidence of his attitude over the last year or so he certainly isn't fit to be captaining this great club.

On the one hand Pennant has been great but you want to move Gerrard - where to - presumably the right.

I should have qualified my statement - it should read if we had more players in attacking positions close to his quality then it would be not be so bad when he is going through a bad spell.

Funny that defenders and a defensive midfielder make up all but one of our good players in the last year in your eyes.

Says it all really about where our problems lie.

Makes you wonder why other than the Torres accquisition they were never addressed.

[Johnnyboy1973]

But I also don't know of a top European team that could simply and easily slot Gerrard into its formation.

                          Mashcerano

                   Gerrard            Alono

          Torres            Kuyt               Babel


Done.

[realtarragona]

Criticising him for not playing well is one thing (which I actually agree with).

But trying to analyse his body language to use it as something to have a go at with him is a load of shite. He never looks happy. Never has done and never will. That's just him.

[Alonso_The_Assassin]

                          Mashcerano

                   Gerrard            Alono

          Torres            Kuyt               Babel


Done.

I agree. A change of formation is as good as a holiday at the moment!

[Johnnyboy1973]

I agree. A change of formation is as good as a holiday at the moment!

Cant be any worse than playing Babel as a left winger in a four or Kuyt in the whole in a four or Gerrard on the right in a four.

[b_joseph]

                          Mashcerano

                   Gerrard            Alono

          Torres            Kuyt               Babel


Done.

Switch Torres and Kuyt..then replace Kuyt with Yossi.

[Johnnyboy1973]

Switch Torres and Kuyt..then replace Kuyt with Yossi.

Not for me. Yossi would get a game in a 4 4 1 1 playing behind Torres/Kuyt.

Good player Kuyt if used properly.

[b_joseph]

I agree..Kuyt is a good player. But Yossi adds an element of class and intelligence that we lack so dearly.

I'm not saying that Yossi is the long term solution..but at the moment, beggars cant be choosers.

[pete_8]

Rushian's summary above is on the money.

I think Gerrard needs to be left out for 2 or 3 games now, as he is not playing well (which is fair enough) but also because his body language is poor and he is allowing his head to go down, which IMO is not acceptable for a captain. His dejected demeanour is rubbing off on the players around him. Riise is another whose presence is giving a flat feel to the look of the team.

No one should be guaranteed a place in the team if they're not playing well, whether they are the captain or not.

Trouble is he is going to play two games for England now
I personally think he is still carrying an injury and will probably be forced to have a rest soon

England rush players baack like Owen Rooney and Gerrard then the club form suffers fuckin madness IMO

[Huytonian]

How many of the other top teams make so many changes each match? Surely its quite obvious to Rafa now that it doesn't work except maybe in Europe, in the Premier League you need to stick with your best team.

118 changes in 38 games in 06/07 for Rafa;
118 changes in 38 games in Ferguson winning the title in 06/07;
118 changes in 38 games in Mourinho winning the title in 05/06

[I wandered lonely.]

 gerrard's an attacker, which is something rafa doesn't really do all that much. ferguson wanted stevie, so did maureen. put him into utd'd side and he'd be awesome, same probably goes for that mourinho side. we simply don't play to his strengths. that's why i say, put him back  out onto the right.

[JoeK210185]

Can't even be slightly intrested in readin this whole thread but my take on it is...

People who criticize Gerrard, shouldn't, there not allowed, its over the top abuse and so on....

on the other hand..

There's people who think he is Mr Untouchable and can't do a fucking thing wrong and if you slag him off, you don;t no your footy...

Me, im in the middle. I'll give him stick, like any other player, that i feel deserves it from my point of view and from my opinion. BUT i still realise no matter how shite he play's, how low on form/confidence he looks he still give's us something more than most.

Yesterday i thought he was pretty shit to be honest an wasn't happy with him work rate, effort and overall performance

Talkin to fellow match-goers after the match opne pointed out that he STILL gave us at least 3 big positive's, Free-kick for the goal, Free kick hit the post and that great through ball for Torres when he, Voronin and Gerrard should have scored between them

This got me thinkin fucking hell he's right here, its all 'cos of his high standards and what we know he CAN do.

Just please Stevie, get some form back, we bloody need it!!

But Rafa, take the reigns off a bit, learn the players how to attack, or at least don't send them out with just defensive instructions.....please

[Cruiser]

His demeanour is generally moody but the way he looks at other players for not making a run or passing reminds me of Cisse at times. He should be motivating and roaring others on and making them feel a part of the team, not making them feel bad. In fact this is one area where we really miss Bolo Zenden. He was a motivator and someone who had great team spirit on and off the pitch.

I'm sure some kind of shit has gone on behind the scenes since Pako left. The consistency in Gerrard's performances has gone down the shitter and needs serious addressing 

[BigV]

blah blah all Gerrard's fault blah blah

go and support the bitters you bitter twats
 

There's been some good well constructed arguments, it's unfair to discredit them because their critical of Gerrard.

                          Mashcerano

                   Gerrard            Alono

          Torres            Kuyt               Babel

I'd love to see us have a go with this, but I still want Alonso to take on the playmaking responsibilities and feel the most important player in the lineup.

[markmywords]

118 changes in 38 games in 06/07 for Rafa;
118 changes in 38 games in Ferguson winning the title in 06/07;
118 changes in 38 games in Mourinho winning the title in 05/06

amazing, where did you discover this??

[BigV]

118 changes in 38 games in 06/07 for Rafa;
118 changes in 38 games in Ferguson winning the title in 06/07;
118 changes in 38 games in Mourinho winning the title in 05/06

Wouldn't surprise me one bit but it's not the quantity and the quality of the changes that counts.  On the whole I think Benitez makes quality changes but sometimes he goes wrong.  I do think we need to stick to a core lineup of

Reina
Carragher Agger
Alonso Mascherano
Torres

where possible in the 2 major competitions, because I don't think anyone else could come close to replicating the strengths of those players.

In the FA Cup & Carling Cup we can rest those players.

[fowlermagic]

Missing...a spine in a team that needs to win a title. That spine includes a common partnership right down the middle as long as they are on form. Form will not come about by swopping out the major pieces every 2nd league game. Plus that spine needs support from the crowd they feed off of.

Its the typical mongering we have heard seasons past but lucky us Christmas has come early this year. Christ I hope we win the next two league games as we will be looking like right fools.

[Meako1977]

IMO Stevie has not looked happy since the international break - Whether this is to do with the injured toe or simply he got bollocked by Rafa behind closed doors for declaring himself fit for England - We will never know!

You can hear the usual shite being talked on here - Drop him!! If we had someone better to put in then I might agree with this but what is the point of taking him out of the team when your options are another defensive player in Sissoko or an untried CM in Leiva.

IMO Stevie is struggling for three reasons.

1> Not having Alonso in the team means he is trying to be the player to start the moves off whilst everyone also expects him to be at the other end finishing them off. He is good but not that good!

2> He is also struggling with not having Agger at the back. With Hyppia at the back we are defending deep. This is leading to a massive gap between defense, midfield and attack which the midfielders are struggling to fill. With Agger in the team we can defend much higher and it is easier for the midfielders to support the frontline.

3> At the moment you look at the midfield and we only have one player likely to score, Stevie G. Pennant has weighed in with one goal in a season and a half, Momo has managed 1 in nearly 2.5 seasons, Masch hasnt got close and Babel/Riise are having a crisis of confidence. With that kind of pressure you are going to struggle after a while!

I do agree with what a number of people have said in that he needs to lose the finger pointing attitude. Over the last two games he must have spent a fortune on toys, considering how many times he has through them out of his pram. He is captain and giving other players down the banks when he isnt playing well isnt going to help anyone. Once he is back on form then he can criticise others, until then he needs to boost morale, not lower it!

In the short-term I would like to see Stevie back on the right of midfield with Xabi and Masch in the centre. Think this would give Stevie the license to move forward and influence the play whilst we still have the security of the central midfielders.

[Solomon Grundy]

All i've heard today is this "we're still unbeaten" lark and it's doin my nut in. What fuckin good is that if your not winning games?!!!

You can go all season undefeated and still be relegated FFS!!!

I do believe we will come good though and it's only a blip, but all this talk about being undefeated is annoying me. I'd rather us lost at pompey and won our two home games against the brum and spurs then have 3 draws in a row.

[simmo71]

He's probably just sick of creating things himself if he looks like he's pissed off...signs two new contracts when he could have had two league titles and probably a European cup.

[Meako1977]

He's probably just sick of creating things himself if he looks like he's pissed off...signs two new contracts when he could have had two league titles and probably a European cup.

I think he has the European Cup and in the process knocked out the team you are thinking he could have joined!! Also another European Cup Final which in the process knocked out the team you are talking about.

I very much doubt he would have traded either of those experiences with the team he supported!! Also its not like we have done him badly with his £120k a week!!

[Courtney]

We can't talk about Gerrard best position without looking at the team as a whole.
I'd say his best position would be on the right IF we have a top class winger on the left (e.g. Kewell in the latter half of the 05/06 season)and an attacking full-back behind him to provide some width. But things are a lot more complicated than that as we apparently have neither right now.

I also reckon it's a bit premature to say Gerrard can't play in the centre in Rafa's system at all.
In case people didn't notice, our best run in the league last season came with Gerrard and Alonso in central midfield when Momo was out injured. However if we play Gerrard in the middle week in and week out now it means either Alonso or Masch would be left on the bench and that's not something I'd like to see either. *sighs*

Have to say it's a big shame that in Rafa's 4th season here the wingers problem still remains unaddressed. That 4-3-3 formation mentioned above won't work without a couple of quality wingers either.  *shakes head at the idea of using Torres or Kuyt as a wide forward*

[Mark_P]

You gang of heartless bastards, he has got an important game next Saturday for his country, why should he risk injury by tackling or running when he can do less risky things like swagger around the pitch and moan at young players for having a go?

[Meako1977]

Have to say it's a big shame that in Rafa's 4th season here the wingers problem still remains unaddressed. That 4-3-3 formation mentioned above won't work without a couple of quality wingers either.  *shakes head at the idea of using Torres or Kuyt as a wide forward*

Think you are forgetting a key point. We have two players who play 4-3-3 very successfully for their international team Holland. Kuyt has been playing the RF position and Babel the LF position and doing rather well with RVN as the frontman. With Torres replacing RVN in the CF posiition and then the three interchanging we would have a very potent attack. Also you can swap Babel/Kuyt with Beneyoun/Pennant and not lose that attacking power.

Seems to be a consistent problem with the last two managers. Buy a striker who you then think you can change into a winger. Houiller - Heskey, Diouf. Benitez - Cisse, Babel!! Why we cant just buy wingers is beyond me!!

[pth]

Gerrard's best postion is in the middle like scloes does for the scum .

[pth]

has rafa lost the dressing room ? Ever since pako went their seems to be a loss with the players . Are rafas people skills with players any good . From what  i have seen i dont think so . Only time will tell . But how much time has he got .

[Alf]

IMHO Steven Gerrard hasn't been the same player since the 2006 FA Cup Final.

[bigbear]

IMHO Steven Gerrard hasn't been the same player since the 2006 FA Cup Final.

He started this season off brillliantly v Villa and Chelsea and then got injured. The England games obviously did him no good as he needed some fitness work not games and he has not looked the same.

He has become a lad who needs to be happy with his physical condition and his training and I think he's still not 100%.

As for moaning about his demeanour, he isn't happy when we're not winning and whilst it's up to him as Captain to do something about that his way is by example and he ain't playing well enough or feeling fit enough so he gets down on himself.

[Oake]

1. Rafa's compromise is that he's playing Gerrard where Gerrard apparently wants to be played - in central midfield.
2. Gerrard's compromise is that he's playing the central midfield role in the way that Rafa wants him to - with great discipline and caution.

I think there's a lot of truth in this.

He's also something of a whipping boy for many. I saw someone rated him 2 in the Spurs game which was surely TIC, as he'd at least had decent first half, being instrumental in the first goal.

[Johnnyboy1973]

I think there's a lot of truth in this.

He's also something of a whipping boy for many. I saw someone rated him 2 in the Spurs game which was surely TIC, as he'd at least had decent first half, being instrumental in the first goal.

What was funnier was that they had Carra at a 4.

[Hightown Phil]

Gerrard's best postion is in the middle

No, it's not.