Topic: New Stadium Transport

[Retro Red]

The main stumbling block to planning consent for a bigger capacity seems to be transport infrastructure. If that is the case, why hasn't the upgrade of the freight line from Kirkdale to Edge Hill been suggested - its the dotted line on the map that starts at Kirkdale and crosses County Road, Walton Hall Avenue, Utting Avenue, Townsend Lane, West Derby Road, Prescot Road and Edge Lane before reaching Edge Hill.

If there were stations at each of the above main roads, most people from out of town would be better off parking up there than driving into Anfield. Nearly everyone from town would have an easy rail link to the ground, with it joining up to both the city line and northern line. Parking problem cut in one go.

In terms of regeneration benefits, linking the whole of north Liverpool to the rail network would be a massive boost and local people given proper access to jobs in the the land of plenty that's been promised for Wavertree. The traffice burden on the main roads that the line cuts accross would be eased and given the line's already there, it probably miles easier than the ill-fated tram proposal to get off the ground. Even if the tram eventually happens, it'll link in with this line.

So there yiz have it: Uncle Retro's expanded the ground and regenerated north Liverpool in one go - piece of piss.

[Paul Gardner]

Give the man a job in the council, great idea.

[Ste G]

Have a quick scan through this, only brief but it's a quick summary

http://web.archive.org/web/20041210182254/www.lfcnewstadium.co.uk/transport.htm

It's already planned to reopen this line.

There was a huge document outlining all the planned transport improvements which went in when submitting the planning application. I thought it was pretty impressive, it was incredibly thorough.

When I have some more time I'll go through it again and upload it onto here. A lot of what people are suggesting on the forum has already been discussed, park and ride, park and walk, trains, buses etc. Worry not, it's all in hand!

[MikeD]

These 2 closed stations would be most logical

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/w/walton_and_anfield/index.shtml

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/breck_road

[Ste G]

Yes Mike, I think the Walton Lane station was mentioned in the planning application as it would also be able to serve Woodison.



That's a bloody depressing image that though. Trams AND a working suburban train station.  If only that were still the case

[Rushian]

Here's the map from the planning application with the proposed new station on the freight line:

[harrytrow]

On that top map, Kirkdale station seems like its only half a mile further than the proposed station in the planning app.
However the advantage of being able to have a park and rail scheme from the eastern side of the city M62 makes it very attractive. But am I right in thinking it's a single track at the moment and the money needed to upgrade it and build new stations and facilities is really expensive.

[pistol]

But am I right in thinking it's a single track at the moment and the money needed to upgrade it and build new stations and facilities is really expensive.

Yes.  The existing track would likely need relaying, as well as adding another.  The whole cost of it, even without the stations being built would run into millions.

Also, there's no guarantee any of the train companies would want to run a service, on a route without enough proven demand.

[Martin]

Its proven. Of course there would be enough demand. All them Cockney's driving up from the sticks, through on the M62... Isn't that why Edge Hills being developed atm? To cope with the extra load of all their cars/passengers!?

I've lived in Allerton now for over 3 years, and I'd use the new rail link/service without a shadow of a doubt. It'd be much better than using the 26/27 bus system, and to be honest I don't think a new rail network up that neck of the woods would impact on the bus(es) demand etc - maybe I'm wrong?

What I do know is that this should go ahead. Whilst I'm now on my travels in me taxi, is there anyone who can explain exactly where the old rail line runs...? Like, where all the old bridges are, crossovers etc - for instance, where is that old image of down below, Ste G?

M

[Ben S]

Wouldn't hold my breath for decent transport, common sense just isn't there. Take Arriva, they should put out extra 26 / 27's on a match day but do they fuck, especially bad on a sunday when it's something like 1 every half an hour. No wonder some people choose to drive.

If a single bus company can't manage to get it right what chance do the railways where it involves multiple companies.

[corbyRed]

Its proven. Of course there would be enough demand.

30 busy days a year isn't going to be enough to convince a rail company to get set up there in my opinion

[pistol]

30 busy days a year isn't going to be enough to convince a rail company to get set up there in my opinion

Exactly.  Not only would it make it non-beneficial to put the infrastructure in, there'd be prolems with getting enough trains for occasional use.  There's enough of a rolling stock shortage as it is, the amount it would cost to secure more would need full utilisation 7 days a week.

[ShanksLad]

Right - here's the ultimate solution for parking....

It's close, there's plenty of room. It's a bit shitty but - You could get a couple of hundred extra cars in there - Here's a bitter parking for ya!

[corbyRed]

Have you put your propoasals to the council? 

[ShanksLad]

They'd probably send me back a letter bomb. Bluenose gets.

[Paul]

There's enough of a rolling stock shortage as it is, the amount it would cost to secure more would need full utilisation 7 days a week.

Merseyrail's northern line has enough rolling stock to run a 6-car 15 minute service on weekdays (peak).

At present they only run a 3-car 15 minute service on Saturdays (30 minute Sundays), so a shuttle service from say Aintree or Lime Street / LSP is feasible on matchdays. The mancs have this kind of service from Piccadilly to their station on matchdays only.

[GibletII]

Rolling stock is to be replaced and greater capacity on services will be in place between now and 2013. Merseytravel are looking at more of a light rail option so they can integrate services better and allow further expansion of the offer.

[pistol]

Merseyrail's northern line has enough rolling stock to run a 6-car 15 minute service on weekdays (peak).

At present they only run a 3-car 15 minute service on Saturdays (30 minute Sundays), so a shuttle service from say Aintree or Lime Street / LSP is feasible on matchdays. The mancs have this kind of service from Piccadilly to their station on matchdays only.

Fair.........

Rolling stock is to be replaced and greater capacity on services will be in place between now and 2013. Merseytravel are looking at more of a light rail option so they can integrate services better and allow further expansion of the offer.

......enough.

[lloydiethe1st]

In an ideal world these proposed rail links would be knocked up with the minimum of fuss and run like clockwork, but in the real world a park and ride system will probably be the option chosen. Don't know where you'd park though. Maybe somewhere on the docks?

[Paul]

Gillmoss just off the M57 was the preferred option when the tram was supposed to run straight past (next to Carcraft)

Now that has gone tits up I don't know if the site is still available.

[Jonathan Hall ☆☆☆☆☆☆]

Wouldn't hold my breath for decent transport, common sense just isn't there. Take Arriva, they should put out extra 26 / 27's on a match day but do they fuck, especially bad on a sunday when it's something like 1 every half an hour. No wonder some people choose to drive.

If a single bus company can't manage to get it right what chance do the railways where it involves multiple companies.

They used to always have a few waiting near The Sandon to take people along the Shiel Rd circular AND on Breck Rd into town.

Got Shiel Rd from my old place and due to it being the toxteth one rather than down scotty rd the fucker went as far as Kensington and the next 3 did the same (night game)

[harrytrow]

Its proven. Of course there would be enough demand. All them Cockney's driving up from the sticks, through on the M62... Isn't that why Edge Hills being developed atm? To cope with the extra load of all their cars/passengers!?

I've lived in Allerton now for over 3 years, and I'd use the new rail link/service without a shadow of a doubt. It'd be much better than using the 26/27 bus system, and to be honest I don't think a new rail network up that neck of the woods would impact on the bus(es) demand etc - maybe I'm wrong?

What I do know is that this should go ahead. Whilst I'm now on my travels in me taxi, is there anyone who can explain exactly where the old rail line runs...? Like, where all the old bridges are, crossovers etc - for instance, where is that old image of down below, Ste G?

M

Living in Allerton I thought you would use the South Parkway(?) station to kirkdale or at least Sandhills and the match buses that wait there for fans. The buses are slow though and IKirkdale station is within easy walking distance.
The line that everone is talking about branches off at Kirkdale and cuts through Walton Village , crosses Walton Hall Ave by the cop shop, runs around the back of Anfield Cem, across Utiing ave and eventually through Tuebrook and out to Edge Hill to join the main Manchester London lines. It's only single track and would have to be upgraded to double for a full service from Edge hill but I don't know why it can't be used one way before games and reverse route after games or if the stretch from Kirkdale to Anfield Cem could be upgraded to double track then a service could spur off from the merseyrail system nearer to the new ground. Somebody on another thread says that work ids being carried out somewhere on this branch? maybe some one can confirm that rather than me searching all the threads on it.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Living in Allerton I thought you would use the South Parkway(?) station to kirkdale or at least Sandhills and the match buses that wait there for fans. The buses are slow though and IKirkdale station is within easy walking distance.
The line that everone is talking about branches off at Kirkdale and cuts through Walton Village , crosses Walton Hall Ave by the cop shop, runs around the back of Anfield Cem, across Utiing ave and eventually through Tuebrook and out to Edge Hill to join the main Manchester London lines. It's only single track and would have to be upgraded to double for a full service from Edge hill but I don't know why it can't be used one way before games and reverse route after games or if the stretch from Kirkdale to Anfield Cem could be upgraded to double track then a service could spur off from the merseyrail system nearer to the new ground. Somebody on another thread says that work ids being carried out somewhere on this branch? maybe some one can confirm that rather than me searching all the threads on it.

I think the matchday buses at Sandhills are great - especially if you've just bought a saveaway that can be used on them and the train

[GibletII]

Link to a Lib Dem piece on Merseyrail. Most of this is in Merseytravels transport plan, some stuff is more advanced than others. The thing is that the new stadium may help the case but it's all about the transport needs of the city.

http://liverlibdems.org.uk/liverpool/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=147&Itemid=43

[jrewing]

It would be great idea to upgrade Liverpool's train system full stop - with or without the new stadium.

People coming into the city who don't have local knowledge prefer trains to buses. Liverpool seems to stuck using buses to transport people around, which hardly encourages visitors to do anything other than visit the town centre.

[Ben S]

To be fair Liverpool has a better local rail network than most cities in the country.

[jrewing]

To be fair Liverpool has a better local rail network than most cities in the country.

Local rail links are usually shite though. London has decent rail system and look what it's done for them!

Liverpool's geology would have made it much easier to build an underground than it was in London. Why that victorian nutter who just built tunnels underneath Liverpool for fun couldn't have been a rail enthusiast too. Bugger.

[Football CRAZY]

The London Underground and the Athens Metro I thought were both amazing when I've visited those cities. Makes you realise how good the capital cities around the world have it. Liverpool should have copied the Tube ages ago but ther'd never be the money now would cost billions. The Moscow underground looks the best of the lot, hope to get to see that this May fingers X'd.

[Rome-77]

Football CRAZY >>>

Merseyrail, the rail system serving Liverpool and it surrounding towns has the largest British underground system outside of London in terms of route miles. This serves the city centre of Liverpool and the town centre of Birkenhead on the other side of the River Mersey. In all there are 6.5 miles of underground route and five underground stations, two of which are interchanges.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/Merseyrail/Merseyrailmap.jpg

[Football CRAZY]

That could well be true and if so, good stuff. But having used it all my life for school, work and Uni I will never have a good word to say about it. Expensive and with slow poor quality trains every 15 minutes if you're lucky. London and Athens (the two biggest places I've been I don't go many places) were leagues ahead. Trains came every 3 minutes and you could buy travel for either a day or 24 hours at really cheap prices for use on the entire lines. From where I live Merseyrail cuts you off at Wirral, Maghull, and up near Southport. You have to go and Pay more and you still can't use the ticket at peak times. It's crap.

[Rhino]

That could well be true and if so, good stuff. But having used it all my life for school, work and Uni I will never have a good word to say about it. Expensive and with slow poor quality trains every 15 minutes if you're lucky. London and Athens (the two biggest places I've been I don't go many places) were leagues ahead. Trains came every 3 minutes and you could buy travel for either a day or 24 hours at really cheap prices for use on the entire lines. From where I live Merseyrail cuts you off at Wirral, Maghull, and up near Southport. You have to go and Pay more and you still can't use the ticket at peak times. It's crap.

Have you been down there lately.  Went down for the Chelsea match and a single journey (even just 1 stop) is £4.00

[jrewing]

Have you been down there lately.  Went down for the Chelsea match and a single journey (even just 1 stop) is £4.00

For one stop it's shit. For all day, all week, all month or all year it's great. And they chuck the buses in too.

Was years (7-8 years) ago - but I used to get a train from Hertford to London, peak time, every day which was £15-£20 a pop single fare, and free london underground zones 1-6 & all the buses for £180 a month. Merseyrail do nothing like this - except savaways which are great.

Liverpool would be a much better city with a real undergound network. Or a real rail network.

Everything goes into Central and back out. and loads of places don't even have stations, including the sodding football grounds.

Sandstone would be ace. South London which is very poorly served compared with north London is made of peat, shite, and silt, and they've still got about 5 different intersecting lines. They cost a bloody fortune. And they're talking about putting a new one in.

And we're moaning about a few million to upgrade an overland freight line. For fucks sake. Capital of Culture? how much?

[jrewing]

I don't mind walking up from Sandhills. But to be honest, it's a bit of a ball ache. That and then going to Central, and then having to walk to Lime street.

In fact, it's so much of a ball ache I hardly bother. In fact, I usually get someone to drive. Or go relative visiting and get a taxi.

Rail and Liverpool is shite, unless your going to Formby, shopping or leaving.

[Paul]

To be fair Liverpool has a better local rail network than most cities in the country.

And thats shite for half the city (if you dont live near a station)

Plus the fares just went up - £3.20 for a Saveaway (used to be £2.40) .

Robbin twats

[Ben S]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/Merseyrail/Merseyrailmap.jpg

Thats out of date, all zone saveaways are now valid to Chester.

Plus the fares just went up - £3.20 for a Saveaway (used to be £2.40) .

That's not the the whole story, yes it went up, but they also removed the peak hours restriction so they can now be used all day.

Doesn't help me like cos I only used them of a weekend (when there was no restriction anyway) for going to the game. Fortunatly I bought a little stock before the price rise.

[Football CRAZY]

Rhino> yes I did find them really cheap compared to merseyrail. That all day thingy we all bought in Athens was 6 euros for 24 hour use on any line. Last time I went to London it was £4 for the same thing. An all day pass for use on any line, in bigger cities with more rail coverage and more stations and more lines. Better trains that came every 2 or 3 minutes and got where you're going faster. Closest thing which we have to that is a Zone ticket. You can use it until midnight (when the fecking place shuts) and it must be more than £4 if the normal one is £3.20. and up until about a week ago, you couldnt use it at both peak times. I've been kicked off trains before for having a savaway at peak times, ridiculous. Not like they're cheap. They're usually more than a ticket.

[Football CRAZY]

For one stop it's shit. For all day, all week, all month or all year it's great. And they chuck the buses in too.

Was years (7-8 years) ago - but I used to get a train from Hertford to London, peak time, every day which was £15-£20 a pop single fare, and free london underground zones 1-6 & all the buses for £180 a month. Merseyrail do nothing like this - except savaways which are great.

Liverpool would be a much better city with a real undergound network. Or a real rail network.

Everything goes into Central and back out. and loads of places don't even have stations, including the sodding football grounds.

Sandstone would be ace. South London which is very poorly served compared with north London is made of peat, shite, and silt, and they've still got about 5 different intersecting lines. They cost a bloody fortune. And they're talking about putting a new one in.

And we're moaning about a few million to upgrade an overland freight line. For fucks sake. Capital of Culture? how much?

spot on man, agree with every word. Anyone who claims our rail service is even 10% as good as somewhere like London is an absolute lunatic. It clearly isn't. We should have built one the same time as they did, it's too late now. Would be impossible to put in and cost billions.

For anyone here, can you imagine places equivilent to Allerton Road, Sefton Park, Smithdown Road, Upper Parliament, Thornton etc. Not having a station in London..

[Ben S]

and it must be more than £4 if the normal one is £3.20. and up until about a week ago, you couldnt use it at both peak times.

£4.30.

For anyone here, can you imagine places equivilent to Allerton Road, Sefton Park, Smithdown Road, Upper Parliament, Thornton etc. Not having a station in London..

And can you imagine what we would have if we were the capital city with the same stupid amount of money chucked at us that is chucked at london?

The point still stands, the Merseyrail network is still pretty much better than anything in the country outside of lodon.

[lloydiethe1st]

Rhino> yes I did find them really cheap compared to merseyrail. That all day thingy we all bought in Athens was 6 euros for 24 hour use on any line. Last time I went to London it was £4 for the same thing. An all day pass for use on any line, in bigger cities with more rail coverage and more stations and more lines. Better trains that came every 2 or 3 minutes and got where you're going faster. Closest thing which we have to that is a Zone ticket. You can use it until midnight (when the fecking place shuts) and it must be more than £4 if the normal one is £3.20. and up until about a week ago, you couldnt use it at both peak times. I've been kicked off trains before for having a savaway at peak times, ridiculous. Not like they're cheap. They're usually more than a ticket.

Must have missed that.

The Athens metro system makes the underground look like a sewer.

[Rhino]

Well I've never been on the Merseyrail system, but grew up with the London Underground, and whilst it is extensive, it's not cheap, or efficient or reliable.

I guess its what ever you're use to, but systems like the Paris metro, the Barca & Athens systems, piss all over the London Underground.

As for transport for the new stadium, they need to look at a massive park & ride somewhere along the M62 and keep the OOT from even getting to the Rocket