Topic: Mascherano

[bigbear]

The same could have been said of Hamann and currently Makalele. Just because they are a King of a trade rather than a jack of all trades, it doesn't mean they are less appealing. In fact I would prefer a specialist in that sort of position.

But on the basis that we have 3 very good central players already, a new signing who was good in all 4 midfield positions may be of more benefit.

The MSI angle is intersting also. They will not let him go anywhere on the cheap long term. We need to buy out their interest in him if his loan is successful and that will not come cheap.

[Valim]

You could hardly say that Alonso and Sissoko like to get forward. Neither of them have been the opponents box all season (apart from pens).

Masch is more like Hamman and he is a very good player.

Watched Mascherano many, many times live. He is excellent. Great positioning, great passing. Excellent choice for a deep CM role, where we wonīt sacrifice tactically, and will keep superb distribution to boot.

My worry isnīt about on-pitch. He left Corinthians under a cloud. Everyone knew Tevez was a nutcase that would eventually flip and leave, but Mascherano was supposedly a loyal and professional player. He just up and left without a word really.

Now he asks to leave West Ham. Hmmm.

[Waterloo Phil]

there is a rule by Fifa that states if a player is fit and have not been selected for a subs appearance for more than 4 games then they can go to there respected FA and ask for there contract to be canceled and made void, they and FIFA will then consider and look at the situation and if they consider the player be of the quality to be able to at very least be a substitute for the team then they will accept the players proposal......

The problem with this law is that it this can only happen in the first 15 days after the season has finished see attached

[Darren G]

Fair point but it depends if you want to drive 2 miles to take the kids to school every day through shitty side streets or do the 24 hour Le Mans race in it.

My point re Barton was that he could play on the right or probably even left of the midfield to toughen it up as he's quite mobile and has a decent engine.

From what I've seen Mascherano (as good as he is) could only play the holidng role and we have others already to do that.

[/b]

  We have Xabi and that's about it.  Momo, though a great ball-winner is not capable of helping to dictate the tempo of a game and does not have the greatest reading of the game and Gerrard is geared pretty much as an attacking midfielder these days.  There is no one in the ressies either who is capable of covering for Xabi on a regular basis. 

 I really can't see what we have to lose on the deal provided FIFA will allow it to go ahead.  Before the debacle at West Ham, where he has hardly been given a proper chance to settle into the English game, Mascherano was valued a damn site higher than 6 million and if he didn't work out we would at least break even on the deal, you can be certain of that.

[kopitekop1]

If he comes on loan would that have any effect rather than buying him?
All seems a bit cloudy but i am sure if a deal is struck permission would be in place before hand.

[Notayesman]

Watched Mascherano many, many times live. He is excellent. Great positioning, great passing. Excellent choice for a deep CM role, where we wonīt sacrifice tactically, and will keep superb distribution to boot.

My worry isnīt about on-pitch. He left Corinthians under a cloud. Everyone knew Tevez was a nutcase that would eventually flip and leave, but Mascherano was supposedly a loyal and professional player. He just up and left without a word really.

Now he asks to leave West Ham. Hmmm.

Well I don't think its a mystery as to why he wants to leave West Ham but the MSI thing is the only downside to him. Still you have to expect that we'd have something in place for this, Rafa's pretty thorough after all. Agree with your summary of him as a player, getting him for Ģ6m would be fantastic business.

[anil]

My worry isnīt about on-pitch. He left Corinthians under a cloud. Everyone knew Tevez was a nutcase that would eventually flip and leave, but Mascherano was supposedly a loyal and professional player. He just up and left without a word really.

Now he asks to leave West Ham. Hmmm.

I think you're forgetting that Mascherano has little say in his own destiny.  Most of the time, a club owns a player's registration.  Thus if the player is happy at a club, and the club is happy with the player, there is no problem (well except maybe agents!).  This would normally be the case with Corinthians and Mascherano.

However, with MSI involved with Corinthians (I believe they're part of the ownership group), in their pursuit of acquiring WHAM, they simply moved two of THEIR players (not Corinthians), Tevez and Mascherano to sweeten the deal.  Deal falls through, so the two players are serving no useful purpose to their owners, MSI.

As such, MSI is wise to move the players to another club, where they can re-establish their initial valuation of around 16m.  If we're smart, and we can overcome the FIFA hurdles, I would go with a loan, with an option to buy at a reduced valuation of around 6-8m.  Not a pure loan.

[Ole Gunnar]

The MSI angle is intersting also. They will not let him go anywhere on the cheap long term. We need to buy out their interest in him if his loan is successful and that will not come cheap.

I would assume a fee has already been agreed, no way Benitez would take him on loan without agreeing a fee. Isn't there a Ģ5-6m fee being reported?

[TheoRacle]

The Independent
By Jason Burt and Andy Hunter
Published: 05 January 2007

However, it is believed that it would be impossible for the player to leave this month. The rules of Fifa, the game's world governing body, state that a player is not allowed to play for three clubs in one season, but the organisation, which has written to West Ham to spell out its rules after the club sought clarification, can nevertheless be petitioned. It will be argued that Mascherano's career, and earning potential, is being harmed by his current plight and lack of games.

Precedent has been set and the Argentine Football Association, a powerful voice within Fifa, is willing to lobby on Mascherano's behalf. It is more difficult for Tevez to leave before the end of the season because he is playing at present. The Argentines will also argue that because Mascherano has played in South America, for the Brazilian club Corinthians, and in Europe over a year it actually constitutes two seasons

The legal folk always like it when a 'precedenct has been set' as it means they don't actually have to do any thinking for themselves.  It's a simple case of 'can Mascherano's case be directly compared to Player X?' and voila!  Would love to know who Player X is...

Fair point but it depends if you want to drive 2 miles to take the kids to school every day through shitty side streets or do the 24 hour Le Mans race in it.

I reckon taking the Ferrari shopping would certainly cause a few distractions and throw some 'drivers' out of their comfort zone where as taking the Viva to Le Mans (which is where LFC metaphorically should be playing!) would be at best very desperate at worst laughable...

[Walshy nMeŪ]

I understand there are no complications with FIFA over this deal.  Why the fuck can't proffesionals in the media get this in their thick skulls?

Posted 08:08 this morning.

http://home.skysports.com/transferarticle.aspx?hlid=439451

[Waterloo Phil]

Here is the actual rule , now can anyone confirm if mascherano played after July 1st 2005 for Corinthians ?

[Gnurglan]

Yes but some of them just aren't good enough full stop, even the step up from reserve level to first team is massive. Rafa and his staff are better placed than us to assess this. If he's good enough he'll get his chance and he should take it. People seem to think we should be promoting a youngster every season, well it doesn't work like that unfortunately. I certainly wouldn't not sign Mascherano in the hope that Guthrie can make the step up.

Don't want us to get a 5th CM. There are big dangers associated with a crowded squad, which is what we'd get if we signed Mascerano (and kept all 4 CMs). First of all, it costs big money. Second, those who don't play will block the way for talented young players. Because, as with Mascerano if he comes, the squad players will be higher up the pecking order. The Academy, as a result, will not be part of the club, which it should be.

I believe it's better to risk the situation we're now in, with a bit of an injury crisis, then to be armed with too many players. This crisis is actually beneficial for us. We'll have to come up with solutions and we'll get answers. The answer may not be "Guthrie in or out", it may be that Aurelio can act as CM cover or something else. If we don't get those situations during a season, then we have too many players. For sure.

Guthrie is a far better bet for a short term stop gap than Mascerano. If we're thinking in terms of replacements for Zenden it's a different story.

[anil]

Here is the actual rule , now can anyone confirm if mascherano played after July 1st 2005 for Corinthians ?

From what I've read, he played for them in either July or August, after returning from the World Cup.

[Waterloo Phil]

The Argentines will also argue that because Mascherano has played in South America, for the Brazilian club Corinthians, and in Europe over a year it actually constitutes two seasons

Im liking that

[Walshy nMeŪ]

There is nothing really on their site about stats and teams last season.

[anil]

I understand there are no complications with FIFA over this deal.  Why the fuck can't proffesionals in the media get this in their thick skulls?

Posted 08:08 this morning.

http://home.skysports.com/transferarticle.aspx?hlid=439451

Remember, FIFA doesn't set law.  They can have rules and regulations but it cannot contravene accepted employment practices etc.  I agree that the rules are pretty clear, but I suspect Liverpool, WHAM and the Argentine Fed, will all petition that all parties are in agreement that its in the best interest of everyone for him to move on.  WHAM will say they will not play him, the player's future earning potential will decrease, the Argentine Fed will say one its top players is being affected by the existing arrangement, and Liverpool will say that it can provide a solution that satisfies all parties.  It will basically be an argument that the law was to protect the best interest of the player, and in this situation, his best interest is served by him moving.

[Waterloo Phil]

WHAM and the Argentine Fed, will all petition that all parties are in agreement that its in the best interest of everyone for him to move on.  WHAM will say they will not play him

Whats George Micheal got to do with this?

[anil]

Im liking that

I think its pretty clear, that they define a year as June 30 - July 1st to ensure the differing seasons worldwide are taken into account (South America, North America, Europe, Far East etc).

[Sarge]

http://www.footballissue.com/index.php/2007/01/05/west-ham-duo-cant-leave-the-club.html

West Ham duo cant leave the club

West Ham United duo Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano cannot leave the club before 30th June a fifa spokesman confirmed. Mascherano has been linked with a move to Liverpool.


"The rules are very clear. Article 5.3 states that, although a player can be registered for a maximum of three clubs during the period from 1st July to 30th June, he is only eligible to play in official matches for two clubs in this period," a Fifa spokesman told The Times.

"In the case of Mascherano or [Carlos] Tevez, they have already played for Corinthians and West Ham United.

"The rule is binding. It cannot be deactivated just because it suits the clubs and the player in a certain instance.

"These rules were drawn up to protect the interests of players and clubs and to provide more stability in football.

"If a case was formally submitted to the Fifa bodies, then of course the Fifa bodies would look at it, but the view from our legal department is very clear that the regulations cannot be broken."
 

[FTW]

Add to this the fact that I doubt we'd be at such an advanced stage (reportedly) if all the signs said he couldn't come.

I'm sure everyone involved has better things to do, than try and work at a transfer that "cant happen".

So there must be hope.

[anil]

Whats George Micheal got to do with this?

Its about having Faith?

* wiggles bum *

[anil]

http://www.footballissue.com/index.php/2007/01/05/west-ham-duo-cant-leave-the-club.html

Jesus Sarge, how many times does the same quote have to be posted from different sources?

[Waterloo Phil]

http://www.footballissue.com/index.php/2007/01/05/west-ham-duo-cant-leave-the-club.html

West Ham duo cant leave the club

West Ham United duo Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano cannot leave the club before 30th June a fifa spokesman confirmed. Mascherano has been linked with a move to Liverpool.


"The rules are very clear. Article 5.3 states that, although a player can be registered for a maximum of three clubs during the period from 1st July to 30th June, he is only eligible to play in official matches for two clubs in this period," a Fifa spokesman told The Times.

"In the case of Mascherano or [Carlos] Tevez, they have already played for Corinthians and West Ham United.

"The rule is binding. It cannot be deactivated just because it suits the clubs and the player in a certain instance.

"These rules were drawn up to protect the interests of players and clubs and to provide more stability in football.

"If a case was formally submitted to the Fifa bodies, then of course the Fifa bodies would look at it, but the view from our legal department is very clear that the regulations cannot be broken."
 

We know we know

[anil]

hehe

[-HH-]

It's funny though isn't it. The rule was drawn up to protect the interests of clubs and players, it can't just be ignored because it suits the club and player. Why not? You just said it was brought in to protect their interests, if the rule is not protecting their interests in this case, shouldn't it be waived? After all, West Ham want rid, we want him and the player wants to come. Fucking stupid.

[Gnurglan]

Neill before the window closes from blackburn ? can't see imo how he's rated so highly.


Cara as cover and  Peltier { i rate highly}

Carra is a last bet, if everything else fails. He's a key player at CB. He's also one of our 3 CBs. We need all three, but I don't want us to play all three at the same time.
I don't mind Peltier at RB for a few games, but he's not involved for some reason.

We have a tricky situation at RB. Finnan will be 31 this spring, but is doing an excellent job. Realistically, we'll need to sign a replacement for him within the next two seasons. Peltier may or may not be one of our two future RBs. So we clearly need at least one new RB within the next 1-2 years. Maybe two. What kind of player should we go for? Personally I believe Peltier is an important part of the answer to that, whether he stays or not. Therefore I reckon he should get a few more games this season.

[Sarge]

Jesus Sarge, how many times does the same quote have to be posted from different sources?

Until it sinks in.

[anil]

Until it sinks in.

If Jean-Marc Bosman didn't go against rules and regulations, we would never have gotten Zenden.







Hang on a minute.......

[Robert_B]

This may be a dumb question, but what would have to happen for us / Mascherano to "get out" of the MSI setup thing? The whole deal would be 100% better if we didn't have MSI's presence muddying up the waters. If we got him, would we even own him? Could MSI be c*nts 12 months down the road and want us to sell him / pay him more etc?

I'm all for us getting him, but I don't really want an entity like MSI causing problems.

[kopitekop1]

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0500liverpoolfc/

Rafa sure of a cup treatJan 5 2007

 

 
By Chris Bascombe, Liverpool Echo
 
 
RAFA BENITEZ has predicted an FA Cup classic at Anfield tomorrow night as Liverpool and Arsenal battle to avoid a fixture backlog in the weeks ahead.

Benitez believes both clubs' determination to secure a result in the third round tie will ensure an all-out attacking contest.

The teams have a rescheduled Carling Cup clash to contend with, as well as vital Premiership games in January.

And although an FA Cup replay date has already been pencilled in for January 17, that would wreak havoc for the club who progresses in the Carling Cup.

"I think a draw might be a bad result for both teams, although perhaps more for us because we want to take advantage of being at home," said Benitez.




Story continues

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"It would be very difficult for us to find dates in the diary if we have to meet again.


"I'm sure you will find this will make both clubs even more determined to settle the game tomorrow.


"I don't think this will be a game when you will see either team happy with a draw."


After winning the cup in dramatic fashion last May, there is a determination at Anfield to retain the trophy.


Benitez will field his big guns for the game tomorrow, and make changes for the Carling Cup quarter-final on Tuesday.


"It's clear that of the two competitions, the FA Cup is more important," said Benitez.


"I won't be saying what my team will be, but you know we take this competition very seriously and would like to do as well as we did last season.


"Arsenal will feel the same, and I'm sure the team they play tomorrow will also be different to the one they play on Tuesday."


Benitez has no fresh injury problems to contend with, but Bolo Zenden and Momo Sissoko have returned to training.


"They are working again, but not with the ball," explained Benitez.


"Bolo could be back in two or three weeks, and we may have Momo in a month. This will be a big help for us in the second half of the season."


Meanwhile, a deal to bring Javier Mascherano to the club is now close to completion.


The initial loan deal, which may become permanent later, could be concluded over the weekend or in the early part of next week.


Mascherano will provide cover for Xabi Alonso and Steven Gerrard, but at 22, the Argentinian is also seen as a potentially excellent long-term prospect.


Although he's perceived as a failure at West Ham, he was considered one of South America's hottest properties prior to his move to Upton Park.


Benitez will be confident the youngster will produce his best form under his management.
 
The plot thickens

[Cusamano]

I find it strange that Bascombe hasn't even mentioned FIFA.

[FTW]

I find it strange that Bascombe hasn't even mentioned FIFA.

Probably never heard of them.

[Fred Madison]

I find it strange that Bascombe hasn't even mentioned FIFA.

That's a game, right?

[Cookie-7-]

The key detail has to be whether he played an Official Match for Corinthians between July 1st 2006 and his move to West Ham.  Has anyone unearthed the answer to this?

It must be unlikely since he was at the World Cup in July, or do friendlies count as Official Matches?

[TheoRacle]

This may be a dumb question, but what would have to happen for us / Mascherano to "get out" of the MSI setup thing? The whole deal would be 100% better if we didn't have MSI's presence muddying up the waters. If we got him, would we even own him? Could MSI be c*nts 12 months down the road and want us to sell him / pay him more etc?

I'm all for us getting him, but I don't really want an entity like MSI causing problems.

Agreed... I'm not sure of the details of the whole MSI setup (is anyone?!) but I can't help thinking it's being portrayed as more of a downer that it possibly is.  Surely Mascherano hasn't pledged his life to these guys... it's got to be vaguely recognisable as a standard contract ie it must have an end date.  We're also assuming that MSI really, really, really rate the guy and are gambling on him coming good and going on to be worth vast sums of money.  Could well be that they feel they've been made to look like prats and will take a reasonable sum now thank you very much.

American Heritage Dictionary - spec·u·la·tion   (spěk'yə-lā'shən)  Pronunciation Key     
n.   

Contemplation or consideration of a subject; meditation.
A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture.
Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition.
Engagement in risky business transactions on the chance of quick or considerable profit

[Live4pool]

Probably never heard of them.

hahaahhaa

[classycarra]

does anybody know of the happenings of kromkamps deal to join us. i am sure they waived this rule for him. was at az until the end of their previous season, joined villareal for six months, joined us for six months then joined psv. actually having given it some thought he probably would have fit into the july-june datreline. silly though that in the sapce of a year and a bit he can play for four clubs

[Red-4-Ever]

Well according to http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=40380&cc=5739 he played 4 games in the Copa Libertadores in 2006/2007. If that is correct (I'm not sure how reliable Soccernet is to be honest) then I can't see FIFA allowing this to go ahead.

[Sarge]

Well according to http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=40380&cc=5739 he played 4 games in the Copa Libertadores in 2006/2007. If that is correct (I'm not sure how reliable Soccernet is to be honest) then I can't see FIFA allowing this to go ahead.

Agree i just think it will fall in the end and we will battle for him in the summer with every other club in europe and lose him.

[anil]

The key detail has to be whether he played an Official Match for Corinthians between July 1st 2006 and his move to West Ham.  Has anyone unearthed the answer to this?

It must be unlikely since he was at the World Cup in July, or do friendlies count as Official Matches?

I believe I answered the question earlier.  He did play a competitive match for Corinthians after the World Cup.  The Brazilian season starts quite early.