Topic: Fox News - Tucker's Fucked.

[hide5seek]

Iraq was all about gaining Iraq's oil reserves, anyone believing different is a moron.

[Alan_X]

I know he won't read it but 4pool might pu Putin's surprising remarks about planning for terrorist attacks by Iraq  into context if he understood that they were maybe influenced by his obvious backing for Bush and in particular the "War on Terror" that Putin has used as a smokescreen for the Chechen war.

Putin also spoke out in October of the same year:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/10/18/putin.iraq/

MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin says terrorist attacks in Iraq are aimed at preventing the re-election of U.S. President George W. Bush and that a Bush defeat "could lead to the spread of terrorism to other parts of the world."

Putin, speaking Central Asian Cooperation Organization summit in Tajikistan Monday, made his most overt comments of support so far for the re-election of Bush for a second term.

"Any unbiased observer understands that attacks of international terrorist organizations in Iraq, especially nowadays, are targeted not only and not so much against the international coalition as against President Bush," Putin said.

"International terrorists have set as their goal inflicting the maximum damage to Bush, to prevent his election to a second term.

"If they succeed in doing that, they will celebrate a victory over America and over the entire anti-terror coalition," Putin said.

"In that case, this would give an additional impulse to international terrorists and to their activities, and could lead to the spread of terrorism to other parts of the world."

So Putin wants Bush to remain in power and does everything he can to help. I don't know - you decide!

[4pool]

Alan_ F..

Yep getting ready to leave for the airport soon. Thanx for the words about a great trip. Four wins in a row at Anfield the next fortnight will all be due to my physical presence.. IF you're going to any of them look me up. I'l be the one in the White hat in the Albert after.

You're right we aren't going to agree. Shock there, eh.

But stop and put aside all this debate for a minute.

The United Nations inspectors keep finding violations after 1441 were passed. It was passed to give Saddam one last chance.

Add to that what Putin said--specifically-- about Iraq and Saddam. That Saddam was preparing attacks on the USA. ( not the article you posted which talks of International terrorist threats AFTER Saddam fell, different animal. Which we know Bin Laden had continually claimed more violence against the US).

So Bush has two things on his plate. Threats from Saddam and Iraq, as communicated by others not Rumsfeld , CIA, or just American intelligence. There were more than Russia telling Bush this.

Then there is what, at the time, the world thought/knew Saddam had with respect to WMD's.

Now do you decide on more never ending inspections. Or put some meat into enforcing UN resolutions?

We know Bushs answer as he is sworn to protect the public and he had "reason" to believe Saddam "could" and "would" carry out what Putin said--after 9/11 and before the resumption of hostilities. Could he wait for an attack and then be slaughtered by the media and have to explain his inaction to those families of those killed? He, and any President now, can't afford another 9/11 on their watch. I don't envy his postion.

That's it in a nutshell. The rest is fodder for everyone else to debate--ad naseum now...lol

[4pool]

btw..my offer to say hi is not just for Alan...but anyone who sees me and my son before or after the match in and around Anfield.

No politics at matches..

[Eric]

I don't think we'll have to wait too long. Bush and his cronies will be voted out for their complete incompetence. The 'real' America will wrestle backcontrol. Thank fuck!

This is the "real America".  Always has been.

[The Fletcher Memorial]

Now this is the kind of broadcast that gives me real hope. Fantastic!!!   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WG7pcIpV10

[nyctex]

Now this is the kind of broadcast that gives me real hope. Fantastic!!!  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WG7pcIpV10

Is that any different than this ad that is actually running during the World Series?  Topic is different, but the "scare" tactic is the same.  Vote for _____________ and Michael J Fox will be cured and your love ones will be saved from horrible diseases.  Effective political ads play on peoples base fears and hopes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9WB_PXjTBo

[Rorus]

Is that any different than this ad that is actually running during the World Series?  Topic is different, but the "scare" tactic is the same.  Vote for _____________ and Michael J Fox will be cured and your love ones will be saved from horrible diseases.  Effective political ads play on peoples base fears and hopes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9WB_PXjTBo

Isn't Olbermann refering specificly to legislation which was passed recently? The same legislation which has recieved next to no mainstream media coverage, The Military Commisions Act?

The same act he describes as the 'death of habeas corpus'. I'm no lawer but wasn't this shit, well, constitutionally protected?

Can anyone complain after the event when their rights have been rendered null and void?

[Alan_X]

Is that any different than this ad that is actually running during the World Series?  Topic is different, but the "scare" tactic is the same.  Vote for _____________ and Michael J Fox will be cured and your love ones will be saved from horrible diseases.  Effective political ads play on peoples base fears and hopes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9WB_PXjTBo

C'mon. In what way are they the same. You're losing touch with reality I think.

Advert 1 - pics of Usama Bin Laden and Al Zaqharwi over a ticking clock and "atomic bomb" explosions.. linking Al Qaeda, Iraq and the "War on Terror" with the clear implication that only the Republicans can save America. Olbermann is absolutely right - it's a "terrorist" commercial... seeking to gain power and influence through scaring people shitless.

Advert 2 - Michael J Fox in a plea to elect a politician who isn't going to ban medical research on the basis of religious fundamentalism so that he has a chance of a decdent life.

Like I say you must have lost any sense of reality and humanity.

[nyctex]

C'mon. In what way are they the same. You're losing touch with reality I think.

Advert 1 - pics of Usama Bin Laden and Al Zaqharwi over a ticking clock and "atomic bomb" explosions.. linking Al Qaeda, Iraq and the "War on Terror" with the clear implication that only the Republicans can save America. Olbermann is absolutely right - it's a "terrorist" commercial... seeking to gain power and influence through scaring people shitless.

Advert 2 - Michael J Fox in a plea to elect a politician who isn't going to ban medical research on the basis of religious fundamentalism so that he has a chance of a decdent life.

Like I say you must have lost any sense of reality and humanity.

My point is they "scare" voters.  The MJF spot tells voters that only so and so can save him.  Show me the difference.  The MJF is actually more insiduous - it implies the other politician "wants" MJF to be ill and doesn't want a cure.  Nothing could be further from the truth

[Alan_X]

Now this is the kind of broadcast that gives me real hope. Fantastic!!!   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WG7pcIpV10

Great piece of oratory - straight from the heart. In the spirit of Ed Murrow. I and others get criticised for being anti-American whereas all I am is anti-right-wing. There are great things and good people still in America - they just need to fight to be heard above the neo-con, corporate-greed, globalised, religious-right bullshit that holds sway in Bush's world.

That gives me so much hope.

[nyctex]

Great piece of oratory - straight from the heart. In the spirit of Ed Murrow. I and others get criticised for being anti-American whereas all I am is anti-right-wing. There are great things and good people still in America - they just need to fight to be heard above the neo-con, corporate-greed, globalised, religious-right bullshit that holds sway in Bush's world.

That gives me so much hope.

So I guess all the hand wringing about O'Reilly's political bias was just a crude stick to bash a right-of-center opinion blow hard.

Or is there actually a double standard? 

PS I think you'll find the US is nothing like your images.  It is quite a big diverse place.  I guess that why people are still moving here in droves

[Alan_X]

My point is they "scare" voters.  The MJF spot tells voters that only so and so can save him.  Show me the difference.  The MJF is actually more insiduous - it implies the other politician "wants" MJF to be ill and doesn't want a cure.  Nothing could be further from the truth

The Michael J Fox advert doesn't scare anyone - get real. And be careful with your logic. Are you saying that the Republican National Committee advert is implying that the Democrats "want" Usama Bin Laden to kill Americans? "These are the stakes...." Err... if not then what is your point about MJF? The other side doesn't want stem cell research on religious grounds presumably and is therefore actively resisting the chance of a cure isn't he?

[nyctex]

The Michael J Fox advert doesn't scare anyone - get real. And be careful with your logic. Are you saying that the Republican National Committee advert is implying that the Democrats "want" Usama Bin Laden to kill Americans? "These are the stakes...." Err... if not then what is your point about MJF? The other side doesn't want stem cell research on religious grounds presumably and is therefore actively resisting the chance of a cure isn't he?

This is goning to spin into a pro-life arguement, but I stand that MJF is trying to imply that Tallent doesn't want a cure.  If he wasn't trying to scare voter then why didn't the spot just point out the possitives for Carnahan.  List her acheivements and her support for all types of research. 


As far as the RNC ad - I don't like it.  And as far as I know it has never run on the air (But I am willing to stand corrected)

[The Fletcher Memorial]

This is goning to spin into a pro-life arguement, but I stand that MJF is trying to imply that Tallent doesn't want a cure.  If he wasn't trying to scare voter then why didn't the spot just point out the possitives for Carnahan.  List her acheivements and her support for all types of research. 


As far as the RNC ad - I don't like it.  And as far as I know it has never run on the air (But I am willing to stand corrected)

Mate, your barking up the wrong tree there!

[Alan_X]

As far as the RNC ad - I don't like it.  And as far as I know it has never run on the air (But I am willing to stand corrected)

It's published on the GOP website - http://www.gop.com/Multimedia/MediaPlayer.aspx?ID=1136&TypeID=2

and as they obviously expected it's now on YouTube.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X-fDqQ-Xcc&mode=related&search=    except that everyone is now taking the piss out of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyQuFHnLsrQ

However this one definitely has - shown during an afternoon college football game in a couple of key swing states:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=727CvG-IKtM

from the "non-political" group Progress For America. Note that after the various attacks on embassies, the USS Cole, WTC1 there was 'no response' (not true of course biut all during the Clinton years). But after 9-11 (Bush) there was action - the invasion of Iraq!

brilliant....!

[nyctex]

However this one definitely has - shown during an afternoon college football game in a couple of key swing states:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=727CvG-IKtM

from the "non-political" group Progress For America. Note that after the various attacks on embassies, the USS Cole, WTC1 there was 'no response' (not true of course biut all during the Clinton years). But after 9-11 (Bush) there was action - the invasion of Iraq!

brilliant....!

I can't see that clip (youtube is very twitchy here at work, some clips do and some don't - I blame it on Al Gore)

Progress for America is a response to MoveOn.org and anything George Soros touches.  These 527 groups are not good for the political process, but they are the logical out-growth of the limits on political speech placed by McCain-Finegold Act

[NY-AmericanRed]

This is goning to spin into a pro-life arguement, but I stand that MJF is trying to imply that Tallent doesn't want a cure.  If he wasn't trying to scare voter then why didn't the spot just point out the possitives for Carnahan.  List her acheivements and her support for all types of research. 


As far as the RNC ad - I don't like it.  And as far as I know it has never run on the air (But I am willing to stand corrected)

Talent is facing Claire McCaskill, not Carnahan for Senate.  McCaskill leads, but just barely.

This Michael J. Fox ad will tilt the election.  It's an incredibly powerful ad which splits Talent's base; the moderate Republicans who believe in embryonic stem cell research vs. the religious radicals who do not.

This ad received over a million hits on Youtube in four days, so to deny its impact is ridiculous...

[nyctex]

Talent is facing Claire McCaskill, not Carnahan for Senate.  McCaskill leads, but just barely.

This Michael J. Fox ad will tilt the election.  It's an incredibly powerful ad which splits Talent's base; the moderate Republicans who believe in embryonic stem cell research vs. the religious radicals who do not.

This ad received over a million hits on Youtube in four days, so to deny its impact is ridiculous...

McCaskill - sorry you're right

Which ad has received the million hits,  the RNC or the Fox ad?

[NY-AmericanRed]

McCaskill - sorry you're right

Which ad has received the million hits,  the RNC or the Fox ad?

The Michael J. Fox ad received a million hits...

[nyctex]

Isn't Olbermann refering specificly to legislation which was passed recently? The same legislation which has recieved next to no mainstream media coverage, The Military Commisions Act?

The same act he describes as the 'death of habeas corpus'. I'm no lawer but wasn't this shit, well, constitutionally protected?

Can anyone complain after the event when their rights have been rendered null and void?

I think you'll find the MCA only affects: "any alien unlawfull combatant"  If you are not one of them than you have nothing to worry about.

If you are then you get a military trail under court marshall rules - just like US soldiers, rather than being shot out of hand as a spy per the Geneva Convention.

Seems to me either way you are you are better off under the MCA.

I love the new Olberman makes me laugh.  He really took "Goodnight and Good Luck" to heart.  I check in now and then to see if he started smoking on air.

To be honest though I loved his schtick better when he was on SportsCenter on ESPN.  You do know he is a sportscaster by training?

[Paul_h]

Iraq was all about gaining Iraq's oil reserves, anyone believing different is a moron.

yes, and to establish a permant military base there, to eventually tackle the big fish, Iran....
and get even more oil for the US and Israel
Oil from Iraq is already being pumped direct to Israel! 
http://www.vialls.com/subliminalsuggestion/oil2.html

[the oxonian]

http://www.vialls.com/subliminalsuggestion/oil2.html
Thank the lord for impartial articles!!
Not sure what to make of that?

[SMD]

Been doing the rounds in the Middle East before the war.

[nyctex]

yes, and to establish a permant military base there, to eventually tackle the big fish, Iran....
and get even more oil for the US and Israel
Oil from Iraq is already being pumped direct to Israel! 
http://www.vialls.com/subliminalsuggestion/oil2.html

Been doing the rounds in the Middle East before the war.

To think there are people that could actually read that and think "Hey now it all makes sense"   Very sad

[SMD]

Erm, you do realise that there are very different ways of thinking in different parts of the world?

For example, we don't believe for one moment that politicians actually do shit

[nyctex]

Erm, you do realise that there are very different ways of thinking in different parts of the world?

For example, we don't believe for one moment that politicians actually do shit

I do realize that. That is what makes it so very very sad.

The Middle East is rife w/ conspericy theories.  And it seems the more far fetched the better.

[SMD]

Why is a 'conspiracy' so far fetched? I know you're fond of your one man bands but couldn't you argue they're more far fetched than a group of people with common goals collaborating?

[nyctex]

Did you go to that guy's site and read the rest of that tripe?

If you say that is making the rounds in the ME and not being laughed at, then God help us all

The guy actually claims the Tsunami was a war-crime FFS. 

[SMD]

So just because one person's an idiot means that it has to be untrue? It can't have been him hearing something and expanding on it with his own artistic licence or even an attempt at discrediting it?

[nyctex]

That is what is so idiotic about these theories.  They get so wrapped up in themselves that they take a life of their own.

I had never heard this and seemed so far fetched on it's face that I had to look into it a little.

It seems that during the build up to the war, when Turkey was not being helpful to the US, some Pentagon official wanted to give the Turks a little slap down.  He floated the idea to build a pipeline that would bypass the Turks.  The Turks make a pretty penny themselves off the transit of Iraqi oil.  The Turks obviously didn't like the idea. 

It seems the story was planted in an Israeli paper.  Once the tweak at the Turks hit the ether of the ME it became one of how many "reasons" the Americans/British liberated Iraq, with WMDs the cover story.

[SMD]

We're talking from the mid 90's here.

Oh and Israeli troops have been operating in Iraq. That much I can tell you for a fact.

[Rorus]

I think you'll find the MCA only affects: "any alien unlawfull combatant"  If you are not one of them than you have nothing to worry about.

If you are then you get a military trail under court marshall rules - just like US soldiers, rather than being shot out of hand as a spy per the Geneva Convention.

Seems to me either way you are you are better off under the MCA.

I love the new Olberman makes me laugh.  He really took "Goodnight and Good Luck" to heart.  I check in now and then to see if he started smoking on air.

To be honest though I loved his schtick better when he was on SportsCenter on ESPN.  You do know he is a sportscaster by training?

I didn't know he was a sportscaster. In fact I didn't know who he was before I heard this piece on the MCA. Anyway..

"The term 'unlawful enemy combatant' means – (i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al-Qaeda, or associated forces); or (ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the president or the secretary of defense."

Does that legaly exclude US citizens? Who decides who is an 'unlawful enemy combatant' ?

[Rorus]

Web could be terror training camp: Chertoff Tue Oct 17, 1:08 AM ET
 


BOSTON (Reuters) - Disaffected people living in the United States may develop radical ideologies and potentially violent skills over the Internet and that could present the next major U.S. security threat, U.S.        Homeland Security Secretary        Michael Chertoff said on Monday.

 "We now have a capability of someone to radicalize themselves over the Internet," Chertoff said on the sidelines of a meeting of International Association of the Chiefs of Police.

"They can train themselves over the Internet. They never have to necessarily go to the training camp or speak with anybody else and that diffusion of a combination of hatred and technical skills in things like bomb-making is a dangerous combination," Chertoff said. "Those are the kind of terrorists that we may not be able to detect with spies and satellites."

Chertoff pointed to the July 7, 2005 attacks on London's transit system, which killed 56 people, as an example a home-grown threat.

To help gather intelligence on possible home-grown attackers, Chertoff said Homeland Security would deploy 20 field agents this fiscal year into "intelligence fusion centers," where they would work with local police agencies.

By the end of the next fiscal year, he said the department aims to up that to 35 staffers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061017/tc_nm/security_chertoff_dc_5

Anyone else find this mildly disturbing?

[Bronx Red]

He is only gone a day but go on admit it you are all starting to miss 4pool aren,t ye 

[Alan_X]

I think you'll find the MCA only affects: "any alien unlawfull combatant"  If you are not one of them than you have nothing to worry about.

So it only affects people defined by a term that has no legal meaning anywhere else in the world apart from the US! Excellent!

[nyctex]

So it only affects people defined by a term that has no legal meaning anywhere else in the world apart from the US! Excellent!

Isn't that the definition of a  SOVEREIGN nation?  They all have laws and procedures that are not recognized by other countries

[xavidub]

Web could be terror training camp: Chertoff Tue Oct 17, 1:08 AM ET
 


BOSTON (Reuters) - Disaffected people living in the United States may develop radical ideologies and potentially violent skills over the Internet and that could present the next major U.S. security threat, U.S.        Homeland Security Secretary        Michael Chertoff said on Monday.

 "We now have a capability of someone to radicalize themselves over the Internet," Chertoff said on the sidelines of a meeting of International Association of the Chiefs of Police.

"They can train themselves over the Internet. They never have to necessarily go to the training camp or speak with anybody else and that diffusion of a combination of hatred and technical skills in things like bomb-making is a dangerous combination," Chertoff said. "Those are the kind of terrorists that we may not be able to detect with spies and satellites."

Chertoff pointed to the July 7, 2005 attacks on London's transit system, which killed 56 people, as an example a home-grown threat.

To help gather intelligence on possible home-grown attackers, Chertoff said Homeland Security would deploy 20 field agents this fiscal year into "intelligence fusion centers," where they would work with local police agencies.

By the end of the next fiscal year, he said the department aims to up that to 35 staffers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061017/tc_nm/security_chertoff_dc_5

Anyone else find this mildly disturbing?

I am not too worried about this. The current US government is gradually disappearing up its own arse and into its own paramoia. Before too long they will all arrest themselves, 'extraordinarily render' themselves to Uzbekistan, torture themselves, extract some bullshit confession and sentence themselves to life in guantanamo where they can spend their time praying and looking under the mattress for WMD's.

[Eric]

I am not too worried about this. The current US government is gradually disappearing up its own arse and into its own paramoia. Before too long they will all arrest themselves, 'extraordinarily render' themselves to Uzbekistan, torture themselves, extract some bullshit confession and sentence themselves to life in guantanamo where they can spend their time praying and looking under the mattress for WMD's.

What worries me is that once these guys are out of office, people will let all of the issues go, even though both republicans and democrats were responsible. 

It's not just the republicans that need to "disappear up their own arse".

[fudge]

Is that any different than this ad that is actually running during the World Series?  Topic is different, but the "scare" tactic is the same.  Vote for _____________ and Michael J Fox will be cured and your love ones will be saved from horrible diseases.  Effective political ads play on peoples base fears and hopes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9WB_PXjTBo

They're in no way comparable.