Author Topic: Sub lost visiting the Titanic.  (Read 27986 times)

Offline Red Beret

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Sub lost visiting the Titanic.
« on: June 20, 2023, 12:31:52 pm »
Thought we needed a separate topic for this to keep it out of the Tory thread.  :wave

Although those who are onboard have signed a waiver recognising the risk, should the DSV be recovered and inspected and found to be inherently unsafe, would that void the waiver?

A lot of money is being spent trying to recover these lives and I know some will baulk as it's taxpayer's money. But regardless of how rich and privileged they might be, I sincerely hope they are rescued. I can't imagine a worse way to go. I'd almost prefer they find that the sub has imploded. At least that would have been quick.

I also hope that the wreckage is recovered by the authorities, so the company can't attempt any kind of cover up. I think that's unlikely though, as I imagine the families of billionaires afford a certain special treatment.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2023, 10:05:45 pm by JerseyKloppite »
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2023, 12:51:58 pm »
Good thinking Red Beret  :thumbup

For what it's worth I think the story would have garnered lots of media coverage even without billionaires onboard as it's the kind of macabre soap opera story that gets a lot of traction these days (similar to the Chilean miners or the Thai kids trapped in a flooded cave).  I think it would have been forced to play second fiddle on the headlines of the right wing newspapers had Starmer been involved in some controversy but provides a handy smokescreen to not draw additional attention to the latest Tory fiasco.

Unlike the other two recent stories that I mentioned above though this was very rich people using their wealth to put themselves into a risky situation, extremely risky with the benefit of hindsight.  As I said in the Tory thread, I can't get my head around somebody spending £195k to go and float around near the Titanic.  With a bit more time to digest it though I guess we need to get used to the ultra rich spending eye-watering amounts on these commercial trips, whether that be to the bottom of the ocean or to the moon or beyond.  Inevitably not every trip will have a happy ending.

I really hope the submersible is recovered and all aboard are OK.  The story about the father and son onboard is particularly harrowing.  Accepting that you may have consigned yourself to an early death would be hard to process at the best of times, but also that you've effectively consigned your son to the same fate would be unbearable.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2023, 01:24:45 pm »
Speaking as a Titanic nerd, I'd love to see the ship with my own eyes. However, I'd rather go aboard Alvin, or another officially built DSV created by scientists and engineers, rather than the slapped together bodge job that's currently missing.
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Offline Nick110581

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2023, 01:28:23 pm »
Just reading about this.

It’s crazy that it had no windows, is the size of a van and could only be locked from outside.

Fingers crossed that it’s good news.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2023, 01:30:29 pm by Nick110581 »
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2023, 01:32:43 pm »
Just reading about this.

It’s crazy that it had no windows, is the size of a van and could only be locked from outside.

It has to have at least one window, otherwise what's the point? Alvin has three!

But if they can only see forwards,  they may struggle to be aware of hazards outside the field of view, like a protrusion of metal that might puncture the hull...
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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2023, 01:35:49 pm »
What I don't understand is: why is there no homing beacon that operates from a self-contained power-source and is pretty much fail-safe?

It's insane.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2023, 01:39:19 pm »
What I don't understand is: why is there no homing beacon that operates from a self-contained power-source and is pretty much fail-safe?

It's insane.
Given that there’s nothing that could get there in time if there were an incident, it’s not really an issue that was worthwhile considering
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Offline Nick110581

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2023, 01:44:06 pm »
It has to have at least one window, otherwise what's the point? Alvin has three!

But if they can only see forwards,  they may struggle to be aware of hazards outside the field of view, like a protrusion of metal that might puncture the hull...

Apparently not.

They were viewing it via a console.
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Offline jonnypb

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2023, 01:49:13 pm »
Really hope that this has a good outcome.

It's insane that anyone would want to go 4000m below sea level with all the risks that it has.  As I understand most Navel vessels can only go to a depth of around 1000m, although it's classified so they may go deeper, and scientific subs can go a lot deeper, so any rescue will be an unmanned sub which would be extremely difficult as they have to find the sub and then attach a line to it.

The deepest rescue to date of a sub as been just under 500m which was the Pisces rescue.

Also being reported that a British-based firm which has a vehicle that may save them has been blocked from joining the rescue mission by the US government.  If true, then this is very bizarre given how difficult this rescue will be and that they only have around 70 hours of oxygen left.

Offline jonnypb

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2023, 01:51:49 pm »
Apparently not.

They were viewing it via a console.

It looks like it has a port hole window.  Strange taking all of that risk and only view it on a console?


Offline BlackandWhitePaul

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2023, 01:54:08 pm »
The vessel that is missing with five people onboard is part of OceanGate Expeditions which charges guests $250,000 (£195,270) for a place on its eight-day expedition to see the Titanic.

Offline Nick110581

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2023, 01:54:24 pm »
It looks like it has a port hole window.  Strange taking all of that risk and only view it on a console?



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65957709.amp

Video there showing it’s controlled by a games controller.

Looks tiny for five people.
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2023, 01:55:43 pm »
There's an article in the Telegraph saying the US have blocked a rescue attempt from a sub based in the channel islands that's capable of winching a vessel from the ocean floor. Only saw the headline though.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2023, 01:56:36 pm »
Just reading about this.

It’s crazy that it had no windows, is the size of a van and could only be locked from outside.

Fingers crossed that it’s good news.
It won’t be
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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2023, 02:00:17 pm »
Given that there’s nothing that could get there in time if there were an incident, it’s not really an issue that was worthwhile considering


According to an expert on the BBC, it could be 'bobbing about on the surface' after releasing a 'dop weight':

 
Quote
The BBC has spoken to a submarine expert to work through a number of scenarios for where the missing submersible might be.

One is that it released a "drop weight" after an emergency, in order to bring it to the surface, said Prof Alistair Greig from University College London.

He told BBC Science Correspondent Pallab Ghosh: "If there was a power failure and/or communication failure, this might have happened, and the submersible would then be bobbing about on the surface waiting to be found," he said.

There are/have been four aircraft scanning the surface for the vessel.

If it had a homing beacon, at least they could pinpoint where it is - best case scenario is that they could pick up the floating vessel quickly; otherwise they could rule-out it being on the surface and save the planes having to make the surface searches.

 
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2023, 02:04:41 pm »
It looks like it has a port hole window.  Strange taking all of that risk and only view it on a console?



Looks a proper bodge job compared to Alvin, which is slightly longer, but only holds three people.  It can also jettison the entire aft two thirds of the sub in an emergency.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSV_Alvin
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Offline liverbloke

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2023, 02:04:52 pm »
that guy on the news this morning was pretty bleak in his approach to them surviving

it's funny (though it's not) that even though they charge hundreds of thousands for a trip per person, the reason it isn't secured to a vessel in case it needs winching up? money

i don't care if they're paupers or billionaires (even though i don't know many billionaires that i care for) they are people first and foremost and as long as they are good people then hopefully they can be saved - bad people, well i couldn't care less
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2023, 02:05:10 pm »

According to an expert on the BBC, it could be 'bobbing about on the surface' after releasing a 'dop weight':

 
There are/have been four aircraft scanning the surface for the vessel.

If it had a homing beacon, at least they could pinpoint where it is - best case scenario is that they could pick up the floating vessel quickly; otherwise they could rule-out it being on the surface and save the planes having to make the surface searches.

 
Fair point.
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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2023, 02:06:41 pm »
The ballast is made up of old construction pipes that are "operated" by the passengers leaning on one side of the vessel to release them. If they're stranded on the sea bed, then maybe they can't release the ballast to float to the surface? It seems apart from the main unit, the rest is an absolute bodge job.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2023, 02:08:57 pm »
The ballast is made up of old construction pipes that are "operated" by the passengers leaning on one side of the vessel to release them. If they're stranded on the sea bed, then maybe they can't release the ballast to float to the surface? It seems apart from the main unit, the rest is an absolute bodge job.
That’s nuts if true.. wow…

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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2023, 02:13:39 pm »
that guy on the news this morning was pretty bleak in his approach to them surviving

it's funny (though it's not) that even though they charge hundreds of thousands for a trip per person, the reason it isn't secured to a vessel in case it needs winching up? money

i don't care if they're paupers or billionaires (even though i don't know many billionaires that i care for) they are people first and foremost and as long as they are good people then hopefully they can be saved - bad people, well i couldn't care less

There's a scientist and pilot on board too. Whatever the billionaires are, there's more regular people trapped also.
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Offline liverbloke

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2023, 02:18:02 pm »
There's a scientist and pilot on board too. Whatever the billionaires are, there's more regular people trapped also.

oh definitely - don't get me wrong i was just muttering that i couldn't care less for bad people, but hope this story has a happy ending

maybe it has risen to the surface - they say that it doesn't need decompression
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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2023, 02:20:51 pm »
That’s nuts if true.. wow…

You'd think there'd be a fail-safe for any power or technical faults, so the ballast is released automatically. That's what subs usually have? Maybe it has and something catastrophic has happened.
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2023, 02:30:22 pm »
that guy on the news this morning was pretty bleak in his approach to them surviving

it's funny (though it's not) that even though they charge hundreds of thousands for a trip per person, the reason it isn't secured to a vessel in case it needs winching up? money

i don't care if they're paupers or billionaires (even though i don't know many billionaires that i care for) they are people first and foremost and as long as they are good people then hopefully they can be saved - bad people, well i couldn't care less
I'm aware there's probably more to it but if it's simple penny pinching then... wow!

As well as the guests onboard it also apparently has the billionaire CEO of the company running the expedition - Stockton Rush of OceanGate.  My guess would be that this expedition was to woo other investors as it seems unlikely that Stockton Rush just rides along with each trip for the fun of it.

I guess we'll never know but I wonder how the costs of the rescue mission compare to the costs of just making the bloody thing a bit safer in the first place.

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2023, 02:32:58 pm »
The ballast is made up of old construction pipes that are "operated" by the passengers leaning on one side of the vessel to release them. If they're stranded on the sea bed, then maybe they can't release the ballast to float to the surface? It seems apart from the main unit, the rest is an absolute bodge job.

Why would you go down in something like that??

I've seen proper research vessels, and they are hugely expensive and packed full of high tech equipment.

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2023, 02:40:52 pm »
I'm aware there's probably more to it but if it's simple penny pinching then... wow!

As well as the guests onboard it also apparently has the billionaire CEO of the company running the expedition - Stockton Rush of OceanGate.  My guess would be that this expedition was to woo other investors as it seems unlikely that Stockton Rush just rides along with each trip for the fun of it.

I guess we'll never know but I wonder how the costs of the rescue mission compare to the costs of just making the bloody thing a bit safer in the first place.

i've just done a quick calculation on zip wire cable (i know it's down to how much load it can hold/take) but 2 miles of steel zip wire 12mm galvanised would cost £23,000

so surely for a stronger cable it's not out of the realms of their budget?
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Offline Nick110581

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2023, 02:40:56 pm »
Why would you go down in something like that??

I've seen proper research vessels, and they are hugely expensive and packed full of high tech equipment.

This is what I don’t understand.

Assume they signed a waiver as it doesn’t sound very safe.
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2023, 02:43:31 pm »
One thing is certain.  That company might be owned by a billionaire, but I bet that waiver doesn't hold up to another billionaire's lawyers.
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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2023, 02:44:57 pm »
One thing is certain.  That company might be owned by a billionaire, but I bet that waiver doesn't hold up to another billionaire's lawyers.

definitely
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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2023, 02:55:09 pm »
Hard to sympathise with the loss of a billionaire private jet dealer, but I still hope they're all found safe and well.

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2023, 03:04:18 pm »
This is what I don’t understand.

Assume they signed a waiver as it doesn’t sound very safe.

The waiver mentions death 3 times on page one alone. A writer who worked on the Simpsons went down in the thing, he said the waiver constantly mentions the risk of death, the controller was from an X Box and he mentioned the scaffold tubes used for ballast.

I might sound harsh, but these fucking idiots don't deserve any sympathy and the ones who own the sub need fucking (I hear the company owner is one of the missing). It's a cobbled together piece of shit from the sounds of it, that isn't fit to go to the bottom of a swimming pool, never mind 13,000 ft and now countless people have to put their lives at risk trying to find them. Its not a joy ride, its a serious undertaking and the eqpt used for a venture like this should be the best on the market and capable of undertaking the journey
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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2023, 03:10:03 pm »
I hope they're found safe and well... but the longer this goes on the more unlikely that will be

I cant help but imagine them being sat on the ocean floor all alive , in pitch black (assuming the power outage) wondering what to do, or if help will come... they dont have any food ,only a sandwich they take with them for the journey down

It's stuff nightmares are made of.

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2023, 03:29:15 pm »
The waiver mentions death 3 times on page one alone. A writer who worked on the Simpsons went down in the thing, he said the waiver constantly mentions the risk of death, the controller was from an X Box and he mentioned the scaffold tubes used for ballast.

I might sound harsh, but these fucking idiots don't deserve any sympathy and the ones who own the sub need fucking (I hear the company owner is one of the missing). It's a cobbled together piece of shit from the sounds of it, that isn't fit to go to the bottom of a swimming pool, never mind 13,000 ft and now countless people have to put their lives at risk trying to find them. Its not a joy ride, its a serious undertaking and the eqpt used for a venture like this should be the best on the market and capable of undertaking the journey

I agree with your points.

The scientist needs his head testing, going down in that.  The deep sea is not to be messed with.

They havn't even got a distress beacon.

I was watching a film about the kursk, the other night (on BBC4).  How ironic.  Their distress beacon was intentionally disabled.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2023, 05:28:31 pm by Red-Soldier »

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2023, 03:39:38 pm »
The waiver mentions death 3 times on page one alone. A writer who worked on the Simpsons went down in the thing, he said the waiver constantly mentions the risk of death, the controller was from an X Box and he mentioned the scaffold tubes used for ballast.

I might sound harsh, but these fucking idiots don't deserve any sympathy and the ones who own the sub need fucking (I hear the company owner is one of the missing). It's a cobbled together piece of shit from the sounds of it, that isn't fit to go to the bottom of a swimming pool, never mind 13,000 ft and now countless people have to put their lives at risk trying to find them. Its not a joy ride, its a serious undertaking and the eqpt used for a venture like this should be the best on the market and capable of undertaking the journey

And the search and rescue bill will cost the US and Canadian taxpayers way more than the $250k forked out by the billionaires.
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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2023, 03:53:50 pm »
I hope they're found safe and well... but the longer this goes on the more unlikely that will be

I cant help but imagine them being sat on the ocean floor all alive , in pitch black (assuming the power outage) wondering what to do, or if help will come... they dont have any food ,only a sandwich they take with them for the journey down

It's stuff nightmares are made of.

Its stuff that really badly written and acted B movies are made of.
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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2023, 04:00:43 pm »
And the search and rescue bill will cost the US and Canadian taxpayers way more than the $250k forked out by the billionaires.

The company itself should be billed, assuming it isn't sued into oblivion.

One can only hope this leads to more stringent safety measures on such companies. I would also hope it would lead to greater protection for the wreck site, but given the activity over the past 35 years I fear that ship has sunk.

To my knowledge, this is the worst (only?) accident relating to the wreck since its actual sinking. One has to marvel that nothing has happened before if any old company can slap an engine on a pressure vessel and call it a submersible.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2023, 04:18:22 pm by Red Beret »
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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2023, 04:12:53 pm »
I've just looked at a proper submersible, the Triton 36000/2. Its a 2 man sub, certified to an unlimited depth (its the only sub in the world to have this) and it costs $48 million.

https://tritonsubs.com/subs/t36000-2/

They also have one called Titanic, the 13000/2, which can dive to the Titanics depth, that's £10 million.

https://tritonsubs.com/subs/gullwing/
« Last Edit: June 20, 2023, 04:16:21 pm by rob1966 »
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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2023, 04:25:12 pm »
The waiver mentions death 3 times on page one alone. A writer who worked on the Simpsons went down in the thing, he said the waiver constantly mentions the risk of death, the controller was from an X Box and he mentioned the scaffold tubes used for ballast.

I might sound harsh, but these fucking idiots don't deserve any sympathy and the ones who own the sub need fucking (I hear the company owner is one of the missing). It's a cobbled together piece of shit from the sounds of it, that isn't fit to go to the bottom of a swimming pool, never mind 13,000 ft and now countless people have to put their lives at risk trying to find them. Its not a joy ride, its a serious undertaking and the eqpt used for a venture like this should be the best on the market and capable of undertaking the journey

Of course they deserve sympathy, they're still human beings, they haven't done anything to deserve to die like this, or their families to lose them. One of them's only 19.

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2023, 04:48:47 pm »
They’ve no chance UNLESS it’s bobbing on the surface but they’ve already covered 12,000 sq miles. Even if it is on the surface they’re running out of oxygen, it can only be opened from the outside. As others have said, sounds like a right botch job of a thing. More people have been into space than down to those depths, insane they would risk it in something like that.

Hopefully it was a catastrophic implosion and it was pretty instantaneous for them all. Chances are it will never be found.

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Re: Sub lost visiting the Titanic. Billionaires at risk.
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2023, 04:50:42 pm »
inside the submersible

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