Topic: Infanticide at Countess of Chester Hospital: Woman arrested.

[Working Class Hen-Pecked Hero]

They're looking into all her placements now as well, including when she was at the Women's hospital.

[rob1966]

The average MOP is a fucking idiot.

It's scary the shit I heard. My missus did one where the accused was 100% guilty but she said, because she doesn't like confrontation, she'd have agreed with the majority no matter what, I mean what the fuck?

They're looking into all her placements now as well, including when she was at the Women's hospital.

Two deaths when she was there they mentioned on Panorama.

As has been stated earlier, the senior management have a lot to answer for. When consultants are questioning the number of deaths, you have to listen and act, not bury it to keep the good name of the hospital

[Kenny's Jacket]

A lad from our village lost his baby to this evil woman.
Im glad for Adam its over now and he can concentrate on grieving.

[jDJ]

based on what?

I haven’t followed the case closely at all, but have read quite a lot since the verdict and was struck by the lack of actual evidence. The fact she was on duty is pretty weak evidence. Another nurse was on duty for three of the deaths as well.

[Shankly998]

I was only half watching last night and right near the end of the programme my missus told me they have no actual evidence that she did kill all the babies, which shocked me. We've seen far too many miscarriages of justice as it is over the last 50 years, I hope this isn't another one.

Everything does point to her, being on shift, the ramblings, what I've read about her in the witness box, but there is a doubt that she's a fall guy for someone else. I'd have much preferred a sting operation where they caught her injecting what she thought was insulin but was saline into a babies drip or whatever.

I had my doubts before hearing the trial evidence as she wasn't a typical fit for a serial killer seemed quite social , well liked, no previous run ins with the law but when you look at all the evidence presented there's no doubt in my mind she was guilty.

On shift every time an incident happened no other member of staff was on every shift where an incident happened and then when she was removed from the ward the elevated deaths stopped.

Found by a doctor creepily watching a child who seemed to have stopped breathing and not doing anything. The insulin evidence where there is no doubt the insulin was artificially given as the body lacked c peptide and she was on shift.

The BBC doc also skipped over the main reason for the motive I think her relationship with the married doc she was probably trying to get his attention in her twisted head with what she was doing.

No medical experts testified on behalf of the defense I wonder why the best they could get was some plumber.Honestly if she looked like more of a munter doubt many would defend her

[TepidT2O]

That she took case notes home is very very odd.
That she did so for kids that died is even odder…

[rob1966]

I had my doubts before hearing the trial evidence as she wasn't a typical fit for a serial killer seemed quite social , well liked, no previous run ins with the law but when you look at all the evidence presented there's no doubt in my mind she was guilty.

On shift every time an incident happened no other member of staff was on every shift where an incident happened and then when she was removed from the ward the elevated deaths stopped.

Found by a doctor creepily watching a child who seemed to have stopped breathing and not doing anything. The insulin evidence where there is no doubt the insulin was artificially given as the body lacked c peptide and she was on shift.

The BBC doc also skipped over the main reason for the motive I think her relationship with the married doc she was probably trying to get his attention in her twisted head with what she was doing.

No medical experts testified on behalf of the defense I wonder why the best they could get was some plumber.Honestly if she looked like more of a munter doubt many would defend her

That last point is bang on, if she looked like Hindley, Rose West or Allit, she'd have been convicted long ago.

When I started watching last night my first reaction was "I hope they slice your face up good and proper you c*nt", but then when my missus said there was no evidence then that's when I thought I hope they've got the right person.

The hospital covering it up doesn't help

[TSC]

I haven’t followed the case closely at all, but have read quite a lot since the verdict and was struck by the lack of actual evidence. The fact she was on duty is pretty weak evidence. Another nurse was on duty for three of the deaths as well.

Good chronological report of events up to and including her trial in this mornings guardian.  Evidence is irrefutable IMO.  Given the numbers of babies murdered and left brain damaged there were occasions of course where other colleagues were also on shift.  However the one constant in all was Letby’s presence and actions.

Some babies started to recover after she knocked off shift, only to mysteriously fall ill and die when she came back on shift.

Evil psychopath

[jDJ]

Good chronological report of events up to and including her trial in this mornings guardian.

Cheers, will have a read. That’s what I’ve been looking for.

[gazzalfc]

I thought she was innocent. Everything I read and saw during the trial all came down to feelings, coincidence, naturally sick babies and an underfunded NHS. My only thought on her being guilty was the fact that the crimes and the time and effort of that trial were too horrendous for her to be found not guilty. I said to my missus 'imagine if she was found not guilty after all that? Having to rebuild a life after being wrongly accused of multiple baby murders.'. Even her friends and family still believe she's innocent.

But now the BBC are breaking it down with her work rotas and natural and pharmaceutical insulin etc. There needed to be a smoking gun but this was always going to be the only thing they could get her on.

I'm sure there will be plenty of netflix documentaries and true crime podcasts trying to work her out. But feel sorry for those babies that have died and the jury that gave up nearly a year to sit through all the testimony and deliberations

[rob1966]

Good chronological report of events up to and including her trial in this mornings guardian.  Evidence is irrefutable IMO.  Given the numbers of babies murdered and left brain damaged there were occasions of course where other colleagues were also on shift.  However the one constant in all was Letby’s presence and actions.

Some babies started to recover after she knocked off shift, only to mysteriously fall ill and die when she came back on shift.

Evil psychopath

This is what I don't get, what the fuck was the hospital doing not seeing these patterns?

I'm pretty convinced she is guilty having read through the Guardian piece, but I do wonder if a top class defence barrister, KC, whatever they are called, could have got her off this?

[redbyrdz]

This is what I don't get, what the fuck was the hospital doing not seeing these patterns?

I'm pretty convinced she is guilty having read through the Guardian piece, but I do wonder if a top class defence barrister, KC, whatever they are called, could have got her off this?

If you read the bbc report, the lead consultant saw the pattern and tried to get her removed from the ward. The hospital refused initially. The consultants also wanted to call the police, but the hospital refused.



Find it fascinating that people think she's innocent. Every time a baby died or collapsed, she was on shift. No other member of staff even comes close to that. The fatality rate increased about 10 fold, but only when she was on shift. If it wasn't her, she has some evil spirits following her around.

[Working Class Hen-Pecked Hero]

They probably did see the patterns, but chose not to believe someone would do something so awful, especially if they could put a face to the name.

[rob1966]

If you read the bbc report, the lead consultant saw the pattern and tried to get her removed from the ward. The hospital refused initially. The consultants also wanted to call the police, but the hospital refused.



Find it fascinating that people think she's innocent. Every time a baby died or collapsed, she was on shift. No other member of staff even comes close to that. The fatality rate increased about 10 fold, but only when she was on shift. If it wasn't her, she has some evil spirits following her around.

Should have been clearer, I meant the senior management, as they tried to sweep it under the carpet and even made consultants apologise to her

[thejbs]

This is what I don't get, what the fuck was the hospital doing not seeing these patterns?

I'm pretty convinced she is guilty having read through the Guardian piece, but I do wonder if a top class defence barrister, KC, whatever they are called, could have got her off this?

She had a top class KC behind her.

[Red-Soldier]

If you read the bbc report, the lead consultant saw the pattern and tried to get her removed from the ward. The hospital refused initially. The consultants also wanted to call the police, but the hospital refused.



Find it fascinating that people think she's innocent. Every time a baby died or collapsed, she was on shift. No other member of staff even comes close to that. The fatality rate increased about 10 fold, but only when she was on shift. If it wasn't her, she has some evil spirits following her around.

It was 25 in total.  She was the only constant in all of them.

[Millie]

This is what I don't get, what the fuck was the hospital doing not seeing these patterns?

I'm pretty convinced she is guilty having read through the Guardian piece, but I do wonder if a top class defence barrister, KC, whatever they are called, could have got her off this?

If you are on trial for murder you get a KC defending you.

[gazzalfc]

She had a top class KC behind her.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/15/hillsborough-disaster-lawyer-calls-prosecution-police-commander-breathtakingly-unfair

Same KC

[rob1966]

If you are on trial for murder you get a KC defending you.

Cheers for that, didn't know how it worked

[Millie]

Cheers for that, didn't know how it worked

I not sure if you actually have to, but Legal Aid will fund a KC for such a serious charge.

[Red-Soldier]

I not sure if you actually have to, but Legal Aid will fund a KC for such a serious charge.

Indeed.

I knew someone who got off with killing a person (self defence apparently, his mum cleaned all the bloodstained clothes etc.).  They got legal aid and a top barrister.

[Butcher Knife Roberto]

The key takeaway from this for me is the almost total lack of emotion from her throughout the case, until the day the doctor she was allegedly infatuated with gave evidence. She only heard his voice and he was kept screened away from her, but that was the moment she first cracked. Until then, even through discussions of the tragic losses of newborn babies, she didn't bat an eyelid. If ever there was a virtually textbook case of Munchausen syndrome by proxy then this is it.

[So… Howard Philips]

If you read the bbc report, the lead consultant saw the pattern and tried to get her removed from the ward. The hospital refused initially. The consultants also wanted to call the police, but the hospital refused.



Find it fascinating that people think she's innocent. Every time a baby died or collapsed, she was on shift. No other member of staff even comes close to that. The fatality rate increased about 10 fold, but only when she was on shift. If it wasn't her, she has some evil spirits following her around.

Since she left the unit only one child has died.

The hospital managers who ignored the concerns of the clinicians, communicated with her parents, wanted the
Consultants to apologise to Letby and misled the hospital board should, if applicable, be prosecuted for misconduct in a public office.

[thejbs]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/15/hillsborough-disaster-lawyer-calls-prosecution-police-commander-breathtakingly-unfair

Same KC

I know. And he’s just represented a child murdering serial killer. He’s still recognised as being a top KC.

[redbyrdz]

Since she left the unit only one child has died.

The hospital managers who ignored the concerns of the clinicians, communicated with her parents, wanted the
Consultants to apologise to Letby and misled the hospital board should, if applicable, be prosecuted for misconduct in a public office.

The hispital has since changed the purpose of the neonatal unit, and doesn't admit the veey weak babies anymore, which also explains the much lower rate of one fatality in seven years. But before Letby started there, they had 2-3 fatalities a year. With her, they had that in a month.

Agree about the hospital managers. There were multiple calls for in-depth investigations, and none happened. Instead, they tried to silence the concerns. That deserves investigating at the very least.

Credit really to the consultants, who kept pushing for an investigation, and to get the police involved.

[west_london_red]

This is what I don't get, what the fuck was the hospital doing not seeing these patterns?

I'm pretty convinced she is guilty having read through the Guardian piece, but I do wonder if a top class defence barrister, KC, whatever they are called, could have got her off this?

I think it would be very hard for any barrister to argue against the statistics around the death rate and her being on shift, juries may not understand the medical science, they may not understand the law, but that chart of all of the members of staff who were on shift when the babies died that shouldn’t have is something they will have all understood and would be incredibly hard to argue against. Yes, it’s not 100% forensic evidence and it it’s still potentially circumstantial, but it’s circumstantial with an incredibly high probability it pretty much has to be accepted as fact I would imagine.

What I found quite interesting was the reason she was doing it. There’s a suggestion she was obsessed/in a relationship with a married doctor and all of this was to get his attention, and the only time she showed any emotion during the trial or broke down was when she gave evidence.

[TepidT2O]

It wasn’t enough just to show that far more babies died whilst she was on shift.

They had to show that the death of otherwise healthy babies increased too.  Because, an ill baby dying isn't something worth looking at statistically. But a whole series of babies who were not expected to die? Well that is.

[So… Howard Philips]

I think it would be very hard for any barrister to argue against the statistics around the death rate and her being on shift, juries may not understand the medical science, they may not understand the law, but that chart of all of the members of staff who were on shift when the babies died that shouldn’t have is something they will have all understood and would be incredibly hard to argue against. Yes, it’s not 100% forensic evidence and it it’s still potentially circumstantial, but it’s circumstantial with an incredibly high probability it pretty much has to be accepted as fact I would imagine.

What I found quite interesting was the reason she was doing it. There’s a suggestion she was obsessed/in a relationship with a married doctor and all of this was to get his attention, and the only time she showed any emotion during the trial or broke down was when she gave evidence.

It’s not just the deaths though. One of the consultants who raised concerned noticed that one of the babies had peptides in their blood sample which doesn’t appear with natural insulin. I may have misremembered some of the science but there was some scientific evidence as well as the highly relevant circumstantial evidence.

[west_london_red]

It’s not just the deaths though. One of the consultants who raised concerned noticed that one of the babies had peptides in their blood sample which doesn’t appear with natural insulin. I may have misremembered some of the science but there was some scientific evidence as well as the highly relevant circumstantial evidence.

I could have been clearer, there was plenty of other evidence, my point was that the deaths and other unexpected deteriorations in the babies states and her presence at all of them would have been enough to convict in my opinion, never mind all of the other evidence on top of that which might have been harder for a jury to understand.

Yeah, when your body produces insulin it also produces another substance (whose name escapes me) in proportion, so if the proportion is normal then the insulin comes from the body. If the level of insulin is way above the other substance then the insulin hasn’t been produced by the body.

[Buck Pete]

We all know that since time began, the judicial system is flawed and there have been numerous miscarriages of justice in probably every country on the map.

But have you ever known an actual serial killer to be found guilty by a jury and then be subsequently proved to be innocent and released?

I know we are not privy to everything about this case (yet) but surely to god it must have been beyond reasonable doubt that she has committed these crimes.

I think in this particular case we just have to trust the system got it right.

[TSC]

This is what I don't get, what the fuck was the hospital doing not seeing these patterns?

I'm pretty convinced she is guilty having read through the Guardian piece, but I do wonder if a top class defence barrister, KC, whatever they are called, could have got her off this?

Prosecution’s key medical expert calls hospital exec’s ‘grossly negligent’ and that they should be investigated by police for corporate manslaughter:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/lucy-letby-hospital-bosses-corporate-manslaughter-b2396146.html

[Bioluminescence]

There is a good article in The Sunday Times (archive) that gives details I hadn't seen before (I haven't watched the Panorama programme yet). There were a few things that pointed the finger in Letby's direction - the deaths followed her as she was moved from the night shift to the day shift for her wellbeing, and the deaths that occurred after her Ibiza holiday (when she said she was probably "back with a bang").

There clearly is a case for criminal negligence, not that my knowledge of the law is any good. That management decided to prioritise reputation ahead of safety is beyond comprehension.

[Alf]

Just watched this from ITV news. I find it astonishing the lack of CCTV here. Having worked somewhere full of it, 25 years ago.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJskyn7H/

[jDJ]

Since she left the unit only one child has died.

Since she left, the neo natal ward got downgraded and only took babies which were born upto 5 weeks premature.

[Peabee]

There’s a feeling of unease about this, she may well be a monster not discounting this but from my understanding the evidence against her is all circumstantial, there’s no hard evidence. In ITU medcine people do get runs of really sick people who die, it’s the nature of the job, unlike shipman or allit no patterns of lying etc. Maybe totally wrong but I do feel a slight unease about this conviction

Have you been through the evidence? It’s not all circumstantial. The jury spent 9 months listening to it then 110 hours deliberating. Your attitude of disbelief is the exact stance the executives took. Because it’s horrifying.

[Peabee]

Since she left, the neo natal ward got downgraded and only took babies which were born upto 5 weeks premature.

There’s lots of evidence you numpty.

Are you going to write to her like those weirdos who wrote to Dahlmer insisting he’s innocent and only they understand him. 

[Reginald Blore]

Prosecution’s key medical expert calls hospital exec’s ‘grossly negligent’ and that they should be investigated by police for corporate manslaughter:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/lucy-letby-hospital-bosses-corporate-manslaughter-b2396146.html

Sadly I doubt they will get a Corporate Manslaughter charge to stick.  My father worked in HSE and they never once managed to get a guilty verdict in court on the basis of Corporate Manslaughter.  They changed the law in 2007 to make it easier but even then the number of successful cases is still very small.