Topic: Arsenal: Top of the divers league

[Wabaloolah]

I don’t think anybody sees Rodgers as a brilliant  manager.

same with Arteta, hence the comparisons I guess

[JRed]

same with Arteta, hence the comparisons I guess

Exactly

[RyanBabel19]

Why does Smith-Rowe never get a look-in? He looked to be the real thing a couple of seasons ago. After Odegaard he looks to me to be Arsenal's creative player. I know he had an injury but Arteta does seem hostile to playing him. Will he leave at the end of the season? Is he on a long contract? Should Liverpool consider buying him?

I still think he’s hugely a confidence player who needs to use his physicality and realise his level. If you could get him in a side with a manager who can get through to him mentally and show him how good he is he could be sublime. Has his injury issues too from what i’ve seen but impresses me every time he plays. Glides with the ball snd makes decisive contributions

[DarkOfTheManatee]

There is no precedent in Rodgers football teams being good out of possession and of the ball. In 13-14 Liverpool conceded 50 league goals. Its a ridiculous number that is reserved for teams that finish mid table. By contrast our defence this season has been by design. We dont have a keeper bailing us out with amazing saves week to week. We have conceded the less amount of goals simply through tactical training. There have been multiple games were we have conceded no more than 2-3 efforts on goal. We have conceded the least shots in the league. Which is by virtue of how we are set up - by design to limit the number of efforts on our goal. David Raya will win the golden glove, and it will be a very passive golden glove - he hasn't done much to earn it. But

If we swapped Arteta for Rodgers, I would fully expect the floodgates to open and we conceded around 30-40% more goals that we would under Arteta. The idea these two coaches/managers are comparable is comical. If you cant see Arteta is miles ahead, you cant see the wood from the trees.  Do people actually watch football or do they just source wikipedia for a cherry pick a stat.

This is why I dont rate Ten Hag or De Zerbi. I watch Man United and Brighton and off the ball they are rubbish. They get played through, passed though, spaces in midfield everywhere, you can say the same about Ange mate at Tottingham. By contrast, Arsenal are the hardest team to score against, the hardest team to get an effort on goal against. We never used to be this team, Arteta has made us this way.

This is why those who think Arsenal should sack Arteta = numpties. You dont sack a 42 year old manager who is showing this much promise. You back him. And im thankful KSG (our FSG) are not irrational and overly emotional, and regardless of what happens this season, Arteta will get a contract extension.

And I'm sure you actually watched all the Liverpool games in the 2013-14 rather than just cherry-picking the goals conceded stat? Why take the uppity 'do you actually watch football?' line rather than just engage in a good-faith hypothetical discussion? Or does your username preclude that?

We conceded a lot of goals that season because we played some of the most attacking, exciting football of any PL team. Even then, 9 of those 50 goals came from just three games: the 3-3 Crystal Palace draw (where we over-committed in attack in an effort to improve our goal difference) and two games against Stoke and Cardiff that we won.

The other cherry-picked stats are that we scored 101 goals that season, and got 84 points. So if we'd been up against 2022-23 Arsenal managed by the 'miles ahead' Arteta, we'd have beaten you to the title on goal difference. And it's still not outside the realm of possibility that you won't improve on that this season.

You clearly value defensive stability and meanness - that's totally valid, and a lot of us are wishing Liverpool had a bit more of that this season. But it's not unreasonable to suggest that a coach who prioritises the other end of the field and has ultimately racked up better career achievements than Arteta thus far might be in the same ballpark as him.

All that being said, if I was Arsenal, I wouldn't swap Arteta for Rodgers either, because I think you'd get one great season but  Rodgers seems increasingly prone to later-stage meltdowns and you'd be lucky to see out three years with him. Whereas Arteta deserves the chance to continue showing he can keep you near the top.

[Wabaloolah]

And I'm sure you actually watched all the Liverpool games in the 2013-14 rather than just cherry-picking the goals conceded stat? Why take the uppity 'do you actually watch football?' line rather than just engage in a good-faith hypothetical discussion? Or does your username preclude that?

We conceded a lot of goals that season because we played some of the most attacking, exciting football of any PL team. Even then, 9 of those 50 goals came from just three games: the 3-3 Crystal Palace draw (where we over-committed in attack in an effort to improve our goal difference) and two games against Stoke and Cardiff that we won.

The other cherry-picked stats are that we scored 101 goals that season, and got 84 points. So if we'd been up against 2022-23 Arsenal managed by the 'miles ahead' Arteta, we'd have beaten you to the title on goal difference. And it's still not outside the realm of possibility that you won't improve on that this season.

You clearly value defensive stability and meanness - that's totally valid, and a lot of us are wishing Liverpool had a bit more of that this season. But it's not unreasonable to suggest that a coach who prioritises the other end of the field and has ultimately racked up better career achievements than Arteta thus far might be in the same ballpark as him.

All that being said, if I was Arsenal, I wouldn't swap Arteta for Rodgers either, because I think you'd get one great season but  Rodgers seems increasingly prone to later-stage meltdowns and you'd be lucky to see out three years with him. Whereas Arteta deserves the chance to continue showing he can keep you near the top.

he's a troll, best ignored

[Oldmanmick]

There is no precedent in Rodgers football teams being good out of possession and of the ball. In 13-14 Liverpool conceded 50 league goals. Its a ridiculous number that is reserved for teams that finish mid table. By contrast our defence this season has been by design. We dont have a keeper bailing us out with amazing saves week to week. We have conceded the less amount of goals simply through tactical training. There have been multiple games were we have conceded no more than 2-3 efforts on goal. We have conceded the least shots in the league. Which is by virtue of how we are set up - by design to limit the number of efforts on our goal. David Raya will win the golden glove, and it will be a very passive golden glove - he hasn't done much to earn it. But

If we swapped Arteta for Rodgers, I would fully expect the floodgates to open and we conceded around 30-40% more goals that we would under Arteta. The idea these two coaches/managers are comparable is comical. If you cant see Arteta is miles ahead, you cant see the wood from the trees.  Do people actually watch football or do they just source wikipedia for a cherry pick a stat.

This is why I dont rate Ten Hag or De Zerbi. I watch Man United and Brighton and off the ball they are rubbish. They get played through, passed though, spaces in midfield everywhere, you can say the same about Ange mate at Tottingham. By contrast, Arsenal are the hardest team to score against, the hardest team to get an effort on goal against. We never used to be this team, Arteta has made us this way.

This is why those who think Arsenal should sack Arteta = numpties. You dont sack a 42 year old manager who is showing this much promise. You back him. And im thankful KSG (our FSG) are not irrational and overly emotional, and regardless of what happens this season, Arteta will get a contract extension.

Manchester United conceded 44 goals in 96/97 & won the league. We conceded just 22 goals in 2018/19 & only finished runners up. End of the day it's points that win prizes.

[Terry de Niro]

Manchester United conceded 44 goals in 96/97 & won the league. We conceded just 22 goals in 2018/19 & only finished runners up. End of the day it's points that win prizes.

[Tonyh8su]

Don't mind him, he's the same WUM who thinks Liverpool and Arsenal are interchangeable teams because both teams have the same amount of points. And he also gave us this gem:

As amusing as it is, I can't be bothered engaging with him anymore.

I was being sarcastic, mate don’t worry. He’s the biggest wanker I’ve ever seen on here. And in this thread in particular that takes some going.

[The North Bank]

It wasnt pretty, or particularly comfortable, we look out on our feet, but we so badly needed those 3 points.
All of a sudden that chelsea game is a big one now, if we go 4 ahead of city thatll create some pressure for their games in hand. Looked knackered though, but then so did city earlier .

[Crosby Nick]

It wasnt pretty, or particularly comfortable, we look out on our feet, but we so badly needed those 3 points.
All of a sudden that chelsea game is a big one now, if we go 4 ahead of city thatll create some pressure for their games in hand. Looked knackered though, but then so did city earlier .

4 points clear, would they have two games in hand?

Stand by for all the tragic “how will I explain to my grandkids Arsenal didn’t win the League?’ shite posts in the weeks ahead!

[The North Bank]

4 points clear, would they have two games in hand?

Stand by for all the tragic “how will I explain to my grandkids Arsenal didn’t win the League?’ shite posts in the weeks ahead!

They will have 2 games in hand. They’re clear favourites, but didnt look good today either. All three teams at the top look like they’re running on fumes.

[Crosby Nick]

They will have 2 games in hand. They’re clear favourites, but didnt look good today either. All three teams at the top look like they’re running on fumes.

That’s true. Anyone with legs can trouble all three of us I’d say. You were fortunate today that Wolves had so many out. Good time to score though and once you got ahead the win felt very likely from our point of view. Fair play, all you can do at this stage.

[BigBrainArteta]

Wolves had an XG of 0.14. Another robust defensive performance to add to the long list. Although it makes it more bewildering that Zinchenko played against Villa. Most Arsenal fans are fed up with Zinchenko and correctly say we have outgrown him. Arteta has drilled a strong defensive unit, but he needs to nix this belief Zinchenko is some kind of ace card.

[bornandbRED]

Think some people are going to soon on the ‘Arteta can’t get them over the line’ stuff considering they’re still very, very much in this race. That’s a massive win for them tonight.

[Crosby Nick]

Think some people are going to soon on the ‘Arteta can’t get them over the line’ stuff considering they’re still very, very much in this race. That’s a massive win for them tonight.

Is it? I had t heard of about half of the Wolves team. Three points is three points and that’s all that matters at this stage. They’re favourites to finish above us given our recent performances but I think Spurs will do the
. But maybe they’ll do City too and become our new best friends.

[wampa1]

Is it? I had t heard of about half of the Wolves team. Three points is three points and that’s all that matters at this stage. They’re favourites to finish above us given our recent performances but I think Spurs will do the
. But maybe they’ll do City too and become our new best friends.

Not if they do us too.

[Gili Gulu]

Arteta has drilled a strong defensive unit

Benefited massively from key personnel staying fit.

Like to see how they'd get on if Saliba's central partner was changing every few games, and their first choice left and right backs were out for months on end.

[The North Bank]

That’s true. Anyone with legs can trouble all three of us I’d say. You were fortunate today that Wolves had so many out. Good time to score though and once you got ahead the win felt very likely from our point of view. Fair play, all you can do at this stage.

At this point i dont see any of the three teams winning the rest of their games. Everyone is stumbling towards the line, but city seems to have just a bit more in reserves.

[DelTrotter]

Wolves had an XG of 0.14. Another robust defensive performance to add to the long list.

Special performance to lock down Wolves reserve team like that, the genius of Arteta is shining so bright right now.

Wonder how many injuries Chelsea and Tottenham will get ravaged by this week.

[Crosby Nick]

Special performance to lock down Wolves reserve team like that, the genius of Arteta is shining so bright right now.

Wonder how many injuries Chelsea and Tottenham will get ravaged by this week.

He’s some fucking bore.

[Caps4444]

All a team needs to do is score first against these.
They have won just 1 game when conceding first and that was against United in September and the winner came in the 96th minute.

[The North Bank]

Special performance to lock down Wolves reserve team like that, the genius of Arteta is shining so bright right now.

Wonder how many injuries Chelsea and Tottenham will get ravaged by this week.

It wasnt a special performance, not even close, but youd take a similar performance/ result today. Just get the points and move on.
Injuries or not we had to win.

[Redley]

Yeah important win

Insane luck they’ve had this season though, with injuries and with when they’ve played teams at just the right time. That’s unlikely to happen again, a long term injury to any of 5/6 players looks like it would completely derail their season. If they’d had the equivalent injuries to us this season, I genuinely think they’d be around United/West Ham in the table.

[Crosby Nick]

Yeah important win

Insane luck they’ve had this season though, with injuries and with when they’ve played teams at just the right time. That’s unlikely to happen again, a long term injury to any of 5/6 players looks like it would completely derail their season. If they’d had the equivalent injuries to us this season, I genuinely think they’d be around United/West Ham in the table.

Saw the first ten minutes or so last night. They just seem able to out the same team out game after game. Maybe left back and maybe a tiny bit of rotation with Trosssrd/Jesus/Havertz and that’s about it. I guess we had that to an extent when at our best but even then, I still can’t get over the stat that our Chanpions League winning eleven in Madrid only played together that one time. Seems impossible.

[The North Bank]

I think our style of play helps, controlled possession football and then bursts of energy, rather than end to end non stop intensity that Liverpool play, that has to be tough on the body, especially if training is also played in a similar way.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Can't think of a luckier team in the history of this league. Still would want them win it over 115 if we can't but in reality we all know 115 aren't dropping points from here so it's a race for 2nd place now between us.

[PaulF]

We were quite 'fortunate' weren't we when we won it. I think it's that luck that the cheats have bought. They can afford a second xi ad good as anyone outside the top 3 in the league so they can rotate more and suffer fewer injuries.

--edit-- arguably they have 3rd choice players too that would get into many first xi I the league. We and arsenal just can't afford that.

[MonsLibpool]

We were quite 'fortunate' weren't we when we won it. I think it's that luck that the cheats have bought. They can afford a second xi ad good as anyone outside the top 3 in the league so they can rotate more and suffer fewer injuries.

--edit-- arguably they have 3rd choice players too that would get into many first xi I the league. We and arsenal just can't afford that.

Their B team team isn't that good anymore. Their slow style of play just limits injuries.  Yesterday,  they were clearly struggling because they have fewer like-for-like replacements in difficult periods.

They have a weaker squad now and a tonne of cash is tied up in Haaland and De Bruyne's contracts. It's like a bet.

[The North Bank]

Their B team team isn't that good anymore. Their slow style of play just limits injuries.  Yesterday,  they were clearly struggling because they have fewer like-for-like replacements in difficult periods.

They have a weaker squad now and a tonne of cash is tied up in Haaland and De Bruyne's contracts. It's like a bet.

Plenty more oil money where that came from, few more brown envelopes and they can revamp their squad. Looked a bit tired yesterday but still miles clear of everyone else in terms of depth. Haaland didnt play yesterday and Doku came off the bench, Dias coming on for Stones, Kovacic and Gvardiol didnt feature. They still spent last night moaning, when they should be thanking their lucky stars that the premier league has no balls to stop them buying all the success they did with fake income.

[JRed]

Strange how these also don’t seem to get many, if any, long term injuries. Same as Abu Dhabi. Makes you wonder if Ped passed on his secret magic juice recipe to Lego head.

[MonsLibpool]

Plenty more oil money where that came from, few more brown envelopes and they can revamp their squad. Looked a bit tired yesterday but still miles clear of everyone else in terms of depth. Haaland didnt play yesterday and Doku came off the bench, Dias coming on for Stones, Kovacic and Gvardiol didnt feature. They still spent last night moaning, when they should be thanking their lucky stars that the premier league has no balls to stop them buying all the success they did with fake income.

Their squad is weaker

From Mahrez to Doku LOL
From Gundogan to Nunes
From Laporte to Gvardiol (still adapting)
They also have/had the likes of Garcia, Bobb and Kalvin Phillips.

It's not that good anymore. In the past, they had top top options on their bench but that's not the case anymore. Their depth is weaker than it looks.

[RJH]

Saw the first ten minutes or so last night. They just seem able to out the same team out game after game. Maybe left back and maybe a tiny bit of rotation with Trosssrd/Jesus/Havertz and that’s about it. I guess we had that to an extent when at our best but even then, I still can’t get over the stat that our Chanpions League winning eleven in Madrid only played together that one time. Seems impossible.

Raya, White, Gabriel, Saliba, Odegaard, Rice, Havertz, Saka.

Those 8 have started 17 out of Arsenal's last 22 games together, and some mix of at least 7 of them appeared in each of those 22 games.
All have at least 20 starts - 4 have 22 starts, 3 have 21, and 1 has 20.


Of the 5 games where the full 8 didn't start, 2 were because a player wasn't eligible, only 3 were due to injury/rotation:

vs Brentford, Raya ineligible because he's officially still on loan
vs Luton, Saka was injured and Rice was rested (came on as sub)
vs Liverpool (Cup) - Ramsdale instead of Raya
vs Forest - Havertz on Bench (came on as sub)
vs West Ham - Havertz Suspended


You have to go back to the dead rubber against PSV in December for the last time fewer than 6 of those players featured in a starting XI for Arsenal.
(I haven't gone further back than that).

[PaulF]

Their squad is weaker

From Mahrez to Doku LOL
From Gundogan to Nunes
From Laporte to Gvardiol (still adapting)
They also have/had the likes of Garcia, Bobb and Kalvin Phillips.

It's not that good anymore. In the past, they had top top options on their bench but that's not the case anymore. Their depth is weaker than it looks.

Oh agreed, but they will fix that. My point was that we needed a bit of injury luck over a season to beat them. If us and arsenal are both close to them, there is more chance of their luck running out.

[decosabute]

I think our style of play helps, controlled possession football and then bursts of energy, rather than end to end non stop intensity that Liverpool play, that has to be tough on the body, especially if training is also played in a similar way.

It's a myth that we play that way all the time. Sure, lately it's been chaos, but most of the season that wasn't the case.

And it's much more that Arsenal have had about as kind a run with injuries as it's possible to have nowadays, rather than anything to do with your style of play.

[ScottishGoon]

Raya, White, Gabriel, Saliba, Odegaard, Rice, Havertz, Saka.

Those 8 have started 17 out of Arsenal's last 22 games together, and some mix of at least 7 of them appeared in each of those 22 games.
All have at least 20 starts - 4 have 22 starts, 3 have 21, and 1 has 20.


Of the 5 games where the full 8 didn't start, 2 were because a player wasn't eligible, only 3 were due to injury/rotation:

vs Brentford, Raya ineligible because he's officially still on loan
vs Luton, Saka was injured and Rice was rested (came on as sub)
vs Liverpool (Cup) - Ramsdale instead of Raya
vs Forest - Havertz on Bench (came on as sub)
vs West Ham - Havertz Suspended


You have to go back to the dead rubber against PSV in December for the last time fewer than 6 of those players featured in a starting XI for Arsenal.
(I haven't gone further back than that).

The thing about most of the guys you mention is that most have had a good injury record lasting a few years now. Those guys are just known to be robust.

Part of it will be luck, but there’s also part of it is just targeting robust players. Someone like Konate it seems will just always have to be managed it seems, Jota likewise.

We have it ourselves, guys likes Tomiyasu, Zinchenko, Jesus, Partey, Smith-Rowe. All have fitness issues, all have for years. Always likely will have. It’s meant that we have or are having to move away from them in terms of reliance to the team. Our reliance on them, and their importance to the team has already been reduced.

[BigBrainArteta]

Strange how these also don’t seem to get many, if any, long term injuries. Same as Abu Dhabi. Makes you wonder if Ped passed on his secret magic juice recipe to Lego head.

Slower tempo, more control. The physical demands are less playing the brand of football Man City and Arsenal play.

[JRed]

Slower tempo, more control. The physical demands are less playing the brand of football Man City and Arsenal play.

Saka gets scythed down Atleast 2590 times a game, yet never picks up an injury.

[farawayred]

Saka gets scythed down Atleast 2590 times a game, yet never picks up an injury.

He dies eight times every game, but like a cat he has nine lives. Gets a clean slate for the next one.

[wah00ey]

Saka gets scythed down Atleast 2590 times a game, yet never picks up an injury.

Diving causes fewer injuries than actually being scythed down.

[The North Bank]

That tackle by Killman on Havertz was an absolute shocker. We got the yellow card, Its no wonder players dive, I take it back, its the only way to protect themselves. Until they start giving red cards for potential ankle breakers I wont be criticizing players for diving.
And not even a mention of it anywhere, a dive gets people talking for a week but a dirty tackle that could end a player’s season just gets glossed over, he even gets accused of going down too easy.