Topic: Diabetes

[Crosby Nick]

Many wont like this but I often have garlic sprout butties.  Honestly really nice and a great fibre boost 

Good God man, you must absolutely reek.

[stewil007]

I have type 2 diabetes - got it about 12 years ago when i mid 30's.

Never really been overweight, my diet has always left a lot to be desired but it is what it is.  It runs in my family on my dads side, i feel for my kids!!

After about 2 years of finding out i had it, i went on the 800 cal diet for 3 months, shakes for breakfast and lunch and soup/plain foods for tea.

I lost a couple of stone, to the point my wife said i looked scrawny.  But it never reversed my diabetes.

I'm at a place now where my HBA1C is around 65-70 (still too high), my cholesteral is rising to the point i'm about to be put on statins, i take a cocktail of drugs every morning and evening along with insulin and i've got an opthalmic appointment at the hospital to check some damage i have in my right eye, which was highlighted from my annual diabetic screening (further complicated that i have very poor vision out of my left eye).

I guess what i'm saying is, give the 800 cal diet a go and reverse it if you can because eventually it catches up with you.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

That fat around your organs, in the stomach, abdominal areas is called visceral fat. Your weight is secondary, you could look skinny  but still carry visceral fat to impede the functioning of your liver, pancreas.

Been through all this with family, examine those areas, get that area flat, it'll be the last part of your body to shed the excess fat, you'll lose in other areas noticeably first.


Now this is your correct weight, and your morning sugars will drop into single digits, your insulin sensitivity will improve tremendously, your blood pressure gets into normal range (assuming you don't have any other blood pressure issues).

She eats two meals of large servings of veggies, one meal of whey / eggs / chicken / fish. Vitamin, mineral supplements. Totally removed the need for medication nor long acting insulin, corrects with very little short acting insulin as necessary. The bigger risk now is going hypo / low blood sugar due to the high insulin sensitivity after shedding the fat there. In the evenings 1 unit of say novorapid tends to bring the glucose level (mmol/L) down by 3 - 3.5.

One carb / sugar 'cheat' day per week.

For type 2, sugar and blood pressure comes down to visceral fat. You ate your way to this disease.

 Wish we knew this 20 years ago. Years of substandard medical care taking the premium money and treating the symptoms instead of the problem. I should have been more attentive, you look at someone who visually looks skinny / healthy and think it's ok but nah. Every g of fat (other than the minimum necessary for healthy function) is a killer in those areas.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Good God man, you must absolutely reek.

Only when I fart


or breathe

[Schmidt]

I think intermittent fasting is a good option. When I tried it the limit was 500 calories a day for women and 600 for men, but the latest I've seen say 800 calories a day for everyone. It didn't work for me unfortunately, but nothing has so far. I put on a lot of weight during cancer treatment and I simply haven't been able to lose most of it no matter what I've tried. But most people get good results with IF and I'd start with that. Restricting calories every day is probably counter-productive. My sister has gone on diets so many times, restricting intake to 600 calories a day for weeks. It's just not healthy, and it clearly doesn't work long term.

This is all backwards. Limiting calories is the most important factor, intermittent fasting only works because it's harder to eat excessive calories each day if you're only eating within a small window, that's it.

Intermittent fasting makes sense if it fits your lifestyle, much like keto, but it won't make you lose weight faster than someone eating the same calories spread out over the day. It's all about choosing an approach that works for you, because losing any significant amount of weight is a marathon, not a sprint.

The key to restricting calories is to not go nuts with it. 800 calories per day will cause your body to respond like you're starving, burning way fewer calories every day as a result, making you feel like shit and impacting your health. I'd recommend using a BMR calculator to get an estimate of how many calories you need every day to function, then eat a little bit more than that each day and see how that goes. I'd also personally never go below 1500 calories a day for any reason.

800 calories per day isn't a diet it's an eating disorder.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Yeah be in caloric deficit daily in a sustainable manner to lose excess fat. If you could,give up regular high carbs due to the load / stress / effort of the insulin response needed to process it even if you're healthy and in daily deficit.
You see the details of these things when monitoring blood sugar constantly with the tech available these days, Freestyle Libre etc.

Edit: to be precise the Libre measures interstitial fluid, there's a few minutes lag to the blood sugar value.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

This is all backwards. Limiting calories is the most important factor, intermittent fasting only works because it's harder to eat excessive calories each day if you're only eating within a small window, that's it.

Intermittent fasting makes sense if it fits your lifestyle, much like keto, but it won't make you lose weight faster than someone eating the same calories spread out over the day. It's all about choosing an approach that works for you, because losing any significant amount of weight is a marathon, not a sprint.

The key to restricting calories is to not go nuts with it. 800 calories per day will cause your body to respond like you're starving, burning way fewer calories every day as a result, making you feel like shit and impacting your health. I'd recommend using a BMR calculator to get an estimate of how many calories you need every day to function, then eat a little bit more than that each day and see how that goes. I'd also personally never go below 1500 calories a day for any reason.

800 calories per day isn't a diet it's an eating disorder.

Well said. Every fad diet or version of intermittent fasting is built on the same thing - eating less calories than your body needs. It's literally the only way to lose weight.

Work out how much your body needs to maintain its current weight and eat 500 calories less than that. When you stop losing weight on that amount, either up the cardio or drop the calories by another 250-500.

I bulk and cut and I can lose weight on 3,000 calories when I'm at my heaviest (95kg last time). I will then eat that much to start putting weight on when I'm at my lightest (75kg last time). I've never gone below 1,800 calories and even that was just for a final push at the end for a week.

[jonnypb]

This is all backwards. Limiting calories is the most important factor, intermittent fasting only works because it's harder to eat excessive calories each day if you're only eating within a small window, that's it.

Intermittent fasting makes sense if it fits your lifestyle, much like keto, but it won't make you lose weight faster than someone eating the same calories spread out over the day. It's all about choosing an approach that works for you, because losing any significant amount of weight is a marathon, not a sprint.

The key to restricting calories is to not go nuts with it. 800 calories per day will cause your body to respond like you're starving, burning way fewer calories every day as a result, making you feel like shit and impacting your health. I'd recommend using a BMR calculator to get an estimate of how many calories you need every day to function, then eat a little bit more than that each day and see how that goes. I'd also personally never go below 1500 calories a day for any reason.

800 calories per day isn't a diet it's an eating disorder.

Totally agree that you have to choose a lifestyle that suits you.  I would say that IF isn't a diet, it certainly hasn't been for me, and it's something that you can sustain even when you've achieved your weight goal.  Whereas a diet is very hard to maintain, especially if you're having to count calories.

I wouldn't really say it's backwards because IF provides you with so many more benefits over just a calorie controlled diet.  Yes if you reduce your calorie intake to a certain level you'll lose weight, just as you would with IF if you consumed similar calories, but with what happens with your body in a fasted state, then that would mean that you'll more than likely see better results.  I would say that if you were following IF then you could eat slightly more calories than you would on a calorie controlled diet and still lose the same or more weight.

You could have 3 meals a day and eat between 7am and 7pm, then you may have a snack of a drink with calories in before you go to bed at say 10pm.  This means that your body will only be in a fasted state for around 9 hours a day, which isn't really enough for any of the fasting benefits to kick in and work, also it won't really help with anyone who is diabetic.  If you ate a similar amount of calories with IF and your body had a fasted state for 16-18 hours then you'll reap many more benefits and see better results.

Once your body has been fasting for 12+ hours it'll burn through your glycogen stores and your body then needs to find another source for fuel.  Your body will then turn to it's fat stores for energy which is why you'd see quicker/more benefits with IF.

An analogy that someone told me was that IF empties your glycogen stores (A fridge), once that is empty it will go to the fat (The freezer).  However, if you're eating time window is 15 hours a day then you'll constantly refilling the fridge and have no reason to go to the freezer (fat) for food. 

[Bioluminescence]

This is all backwards. Limiting calories is the most important factor, intermittent fasting only works because it's harder to eat excessive calories each day if you're only eating within a small window, that's it.

Intermittent fasting makes sense if it fits your lifestyle, much like keto, but it won't make you lose weight faster than someone eating the same calories spread out over the day. It's all about choosing an approach that works for you, because losing any significant amount of weight is a marathon, not a sprint.

The key to restricting calories is to not go nuts with it. 800 calories per day will cause your body to respond like you're starving, burning way fewer calories every day as a result, making you feel like shit and impacting your health. I'd recommend using a BMR calculator to get an estimate of how many calories you need every day to function, then eat a little bit more than that each day and see how that goes. I'd also personally never go below 1500 calories a day for any reason.

800 calories per day isn't a diet it's an eating disorder.

You don't restrict to 800 calories every day though - you do it once, twice, maybe three times a week, and the other days you eat normally. Because I agree that eating 800 calories a day every day will slow down your metabolism, which is why the diets like my sister has followed never last. As soon as she upped her intake again the weight started climbing. IF is supposed to prevent the issue.

I've tried many things and nothing's worked for me. I used to eat about 1400-1500 calories a day, and at times would swim at least 5 km a week and do a fair amount of walking, cycling and exercising, and still I couldn't lose weight. Now I have an autoimmune disease and doctors keep on telling me I need to lose weight because it will reduce pain. I'd like nothing more but nothing works. They tell me to eat less and exercise more, without ever asking me what my routines are, but it's really not that easy. Going from a BMI of about 22 to obese has been difficult enough, but the criticism, assumptions and judgement make it that much more frustrating.

[Schmidt]

I wouldn't really say it's backwards because IF provides you with so many more benefits over just a calorie controlled diet.

Here's a good summary of the effects of intermittent fasting with a ton of links to various studies, although I haven't dug into the studies because I don't really care enough to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1sfiDIPzHU

The summary is that it's a totally valid methodology and for a lot of people it suits their lifestyle well, but it's not any better than just restricting calories. If you really hate counting calories then it can be a lot easier to lose weight via IF/keto without the counting, but personally I find the counting to be a really useful learning experience, and since weight loss is generally a slow process you quickly get to a point where you know enough about the foods you're eating to make tracking pretty painless.

You don't restrict to 800 calories every day though - you do it once, twice, maybe three times a week, and the other days you eat normally. Because I agree that eating 800 calories a day every day will slow down your metabolism, which is why the diets like my sister has followed never last. As soon as she upped her intake again the weight started climbing. IF is supposed to prevent the issue.

I've tried many things and nothing's worked for me. I used to eat about 1400-1500 calories a day, and at times would swim at least 5 km a week and do a fair amount of walking, cycling and exercising, and still I couldn't lose weight. Now I have an autoimmune disease and doctors keep on telling me I need to lose weight because it will reduce pain. I'd like nothing more but nothing works. They tell me to eat less and exercise more, without ever asking me what my routines are, but it's really not that easy. Going from a BMI of about 22 to obese has been difficult enough, but the criticism, assumptions and judgement make it that much more frustrating.

You're getting the worst of everything with that approach though. Severe eating restrictions every other day means your body never adapts to those restricted days and you feel hungry constantly, and there's also a risk that sudden drops in calorie intake will cause your body to metabolise muscle just as much as fat, which causes the calories you burn each day to slowly decrease.

I can't speak to your own circumstances but I'd highly recommend spending some time being incredibly aggressive about counting your calories, because eating 1400 calories per day and not losing weight almost always means that more calories are sneaking in each day than you realise.

Well said. Every fad diet or version of intermittent fasting is built on the same thing - eating less calories than your body needs. It's literally the only way to lose weight.

Work out how much your body needs to maintain its current weight and eat 500 calories less than that. When you stop losing weight on that amount, either up the cardio or drop the calories by another 250-500.

I bulk and cut and I can lose weight on 3,000 calories when I'm at my heaviest (95kg last time). I will then eat that much to start putting weight on when I'm at my lightest (75kg last time). I've never gone below 1,800 calories and even that was just for a final push at the end for a week.

Pretty much my approach too. I eat around 1800 calories per day when dieting as I've always failed at the bulking part, though I prefer weightlifting over cardio as I find cardio a bit boring (I'm assuming you're doing both on a cut if you bulk in between anyway).

[Bioluminescence]

I can't speak to your own circumstances but I'd highly recommend spending some time being incredibly aggressive about counting your calories, because eating 1400 calories per day and not losing weight almost always means that more calories are sneaking in each day than you realise.

I have been, very much so. I'm a biology graduate, I understand the issue very well. Most of my meal are freshly prepared at home and include a lot of vegetables and wholemeal grains. I drink water. I hardly ever have any treats, and that's fine. I was able to lose a little weight when I started to try losing weight after treatment but couldn't get below a certain weight, no matter what I tried. There's something else at play here. I know people think it's simple, that it's a lack of will or that I'm not being honest about my diet (I'm not saying you are, to be clear). Weight was never an issue before treatment so something's clearly changed.

Anyway I don't want to take over this thread Hope Paul finds something that helps him.

[Schmidt]

I have been, very much so. I'm a biology graduate, I understand the issue very well. Most of my meal are freshly prepared at home and include a lot of vegetables and wholemeal grains. I drink water. I hardly ever have any treats, and that's fine. I was able to lose a little weight when I started to try losing weight after treatment but couldn't get below a certain weight, no matter what I tried. There's something else at play here. I know people think it's simple, that it's a lack of will or that I'm not being honest about my diet (I'm not saying you are, to be clear). Weight was never an issue before treatment so something's clearly changed.

Anyway I don't want to take over this thread Hope Paul finds something that helps him.

Yeah I didn't want to make assumptions since you've clearly been impacted by other factors, I just wanted to throw it out there as the vast majority of people who struggle to diet are simply eating too much or too little.

Have you done much weightlifting since your treatment? I'm obviously coming into this blind but I'd assume what you've been through could have reduced your muscle mass, and therefore your daily calorie expenditure, pretty significantly?

[Bioluminescence]

Yeah I didn't want to make assumptions since you've clearly been impacted by other factors, I just wanted to throw it out there as the vast majority of people who struggle to diet are simply eating too much or too little.

Have you done much weightlifting since your treatment? I'm obviously coming into this blind but I'd assume what you've been through could have reduced your muscle mass, and therefore your daily calorie expenditure, pretty significantly?

I've done some weightlifting, and with the swimming, walking (quite brisk) and cycling, I saw a change in body shape if not weight. The problem is with long-term pain issues due to treatment, what I can do is limited. Though interestingly I've spent most of my time in bed over the past 20 months, because my health issue is very active, severe and widespread - the pain now is seriously restricting what I can do. But I've hardly put on any weight in this time, despite three courses of corticosteroids. I was expecting to put on most of the weight I'd lost, so this suggests my diet's not really the problem. Maybe?

[PaulF]

I started this thread to spark up conversation, have learnt heaps already. Feel free to take it whichever way you want!

[McSquared]

I've been mostly ignoring my type 2 for over a decade now.
This month I've done quite a bit of jogging (can't really call it running)  and with it lost a bit of weight.
The news today is peppered with the 800cals a day to shed a lot of weight.

Has anyone been on this, any success stories?

It sounds like it works because the fat is lost from around the organs.
I suspect any diet that gets us down to a good weight is effective as long as we stay there. 800 cals every other day might take twice as long but sounds reasonable (as long as no pig out on alternate days!)

Listening to the story on the radio as I drove back from Greggs was 'interesting'.

There was a program on the bbc a couple of years ago where they had a bunch of people on s total food replacement soup/shake 800kcal diet for 2 months. One of the was a vicar with type 2 diabetes. After 2 months they tested him and it was gone. The doctor was saying just a percent decrease if fat in/around the pancreas can reverse it in a good percentage of cases.

Here he is https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/19-stone-priest-who-reversed-15485426.amp you might be able to find the program somewhere

Here you go. A bit of it anyway https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ4dWSgmV68

[McSquared]

Seems to be a soup and shake diet for three months to get you down loads .
I imagine a lot of type 2s weigh a lot so really need to shed loads. I'm 12 st but my ethnicity doesn't help.
Ive probably eating about 800 so far today. That's a couple of bags of crisps a Weetabix and a Greggs tuna roll. Add in semi skimmed milk from coffee probably nearer a thousand. Though it's rare I don't have skimmed. I could fairly easily cut the crisps and do one more roll for the rest of the day, so 1200 to 1500 is probably not ridiculously hard . I know that's double the 800, but six months of that seems paletable.

You need to eat a total food replacement diet paul so you get the correct balance of macros and nutrients. I am not diabetic but have lost 3 stone doing tfrd for 2 months, so it is entirely possible, but not easy. Best to listen to the world leading expert on the video. However, if you are only 12st, it may not help you as you are already not overweight by the sounds of it

[Machae]

You need to eat a total food replacement diet paul so you get the correct balance of macros and nutrients. I am not diabetic but have lost 3 stone doing tfrd for 2 months, so it is entirely possible, but not easy. Best to listen to the world leading expert on the video. However, if you are only 12st, it may not help you as you are already not overweight by the sounds of it

It is if Paul's 4ft 10 inches

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

You need to eat a total food replacement diet paul so you get the correct balance of macros and nutrients. I am not diabetic but have lost 3 stone doing tfrd for 2 months, so it is entirely possible, but not easy. Best to listen to the world leading expert on the video. However, if you are only 12st, it may not help you as you are already not overweight by the sounds of it

Nobody needs to eat a total food replacement diet. Anyone consuming only 800 calories a day will lose a shit of weight, regardless of the balance of macros and nutrients.

[Claire.]

This is all backwards. Limiting calories is the most important factor, intermittent fasting only works because it's harder to eat excessive calories each day if you're only eating within a small window, that's it.

Intermittent fasting makes sense if it fits your lifestyle, much like keto, but it won't make you lose weight faster than someone eating the same calories spread out over the day. It's all about choosing an approach that works for you, because losing any significant amount of weight is a marathon, not a sprint.

The key to restricting calories is to not go nuts with it. 800 calories per day will cause your body to respond like you're starving, burning way fewer calories every day as a result, making you feel like shit and impacting your health. I'd recommend using a BMR calculator to get an estimate of how many calories you need every day to function, then eat a little bit more than that each day and see how that goes. I'd also personally never go below 1500 calories a day for any reason.

800 calories per day isn't a diet it's an eating disorder.

I agree the very low-cal versions aren't great for the majority (and would NEVER recommend without medical supervision) but there are further benefits to IF versus a square 3 meals a day depending on what you're doing it for. You don't have to do IF as a weight loss tool. You can do it for general health, when the body isn't constantly processing your stomach contents, it can get on with doing other jobs. Autophagy is a wonderful process, it's effectively a de-aging tool and who wouldn't love that shit! Most see a reduction in inflammation in the body. I have a dodgy knee and it never feels better than when I do consistent fasts, when I eat 'normally' it aches like fuck, also see an increase my energy levels and as a result see a lift in mood. If you've got aches and pains, it's worth a go, even eating at maintenance.

Absolutely loads of cases on fasting/keto subreddits of people being able to undo the damage of type 2, but you see the people who've been successful long term opted for IF and keeping their calories at a small deficit on TDEE for their current weight. Keto can shift weight fast but I don't believe it's sustainable over the long term for most people who try it, too many go onto it have success and as soon as they switch back to a normal diet the weight comes back on quickly.

[Clint Eastwood]

The world is full of weird diet regimes like this but the concept of losing weight is easy (even if the process is difficult). Calorie counting and effective regular exercise. You don’t need obscene targets.

[BarryCrocker]

I had a heart scare about 2-3 years ago and ended up seeing a cardiologist. I ended up having a bucket load of tests that showed there was nothing wrong with me. He told me I needed to lose a few kilos and I asked was there any particular diet I should focus on. He said the mediterranean diet was extremely well balanced, but if I wanted permanent and 'damaging reversing' results then intermittent fasting is the best of the bunch. Either 2 days per week fasting (reduced calories) or reduce my eating window down to 6-7 hours per day. I asked why we aren't being bombarded about it's benefits and he said 'there isn't any money it'. There's nothing to sell expect the advise not to eat like you normally do. He told me the $800 I paid him was for the actual tests and the advice was free. Said, he'd like to never see me again if I heed his advice.

[jonnypb]

I had a heart scare about 2-3 years ago and ended up seeing a cardiologist. I ended up having a bucket load of tests that showed there was nothing wrong with me. He told me I needed to lose a few kilos and I asked was there any particular diet I should focus on. He said the mediterranean diet was extremely well balanced, but if I wanted permanent and 'damaging reversing' results then intermittent fasting is the best of the bunch. Either 2 days per week fasting (reduced calories) or reduce my eating window down to 6-7 hours per day. I asked why we aren't being bombarded about it's benefits and he said 'there isn't any money it'. There's nothing to sell expect the advise not to eat like you normally do. He told me the $800 I paid him was for the actual tests and the advice was free. Said, he'd like to never see me again if I heed his advice.

I've been doing IF for 3 years and this is what comes up time and time again.  Most people don't know the additional benefits of IF as it's not just about weight loss.  Pharmaceutical companies have wrote many negative articles on IF.  These companies want people to be ill, they want people to go to the doctors/pharmacies to buy their drugs, they don't want people to do something that is free! 

[Bioluminescence]

I think I'll try the 16:8 IF in the future if I no longer need painkillers which can't be taken on an empty stomach. Or I'll try what my mum used to do every Friday - she skipped lunch, and that seemed to work for her.

[jonnypb]

I think I'll try the 16:8 IF in the future if I no longer need painkillers which can't be taken on an empty stomach. Or I'll try what my mum used to do every Friday - she skipped lunch, and that seemed to work for her.

It's a good approach to start with.  As people have said different diets, or having different patterns like IF suit different people with their lifestyles.  IF suits me as you can eat sensibly without counting calories and see good results.

I've tried Calorie counting in the past and I found it to be a ball ache, especially if you go out for a meal.  Plus a calorie isn't really a calorie.  You can eat 100 calories of protein and your body will use 30 calories to digest that food leaving you a net calorie intake of 70 calories.  Or you can buy a so called 'healthy preprocessed weight watchers ready meal' and your body will use about 10 calories to digest 100 calories of that food leaving you with a net calorie intake of 90 calories per 100.  Over the course of the week this can add up to a huge difference, so it's also about having an understanding of the foods that you eat.  I often laugh when I see peoples trollies filled with these preprocessed 'healthy' ready meals in supermarkets.

[Claire.]

I've been doing IF for 3 years and this is what comes up time and time again.  Most people don't know the additional benefits of IF as it's not just about weight loss.  Pharmaceutical companies have wrote many negative articles on IF.  These companies want people to be ill, they want people to go to the doctors/pharmacies to buy their drugs, they don't want people to do something that is free! 

Soon as you say you're on a fast or you're skipping a meal most people panic like you're going to drop dead. It does take discipline to get going on it, but once you see the effects there isn't any going back, I see better benefits on 23:1 than I do on 16:8 so that's my daily. I have done longer sometimes, purely because I've got to tea time and I just haven't been hungry. Can't see me doing extended ones, though I have read there's immune system benefits post 72hr. I drink a hell of a lot more water now as well, which is never a bad thing.

[Bioluminescence]

It's a good approach to start with.  As people have said different diets, or having different patterns like IF suit different people with their lifestyles.  IF suits me as you can eat sensibly without counting calories and see good results.

I've tried Calorie counting in the past and I found it to be a ball ache, especially if you go out for a meal.  Plus a calorie isn't really a calorie.  You can eat 100 calories of protein and your body will use 30 calories to digest that food leaving you a net calorie intake of 70 calories.  Or you can buy a so called 'healthy preprocessed weight watchers ready meal' and your body will use about 10 calories to digest 100 calories of that food leaving you with a net calorie intake of 90 calories per 100.  Over the course of the week this can add up to a huge difference, so it's also about having an understanding of the foods that you eat.  I often laugh when I see peoples trollies filled with these preprocessed 'healthy' ready meals in supermarkets.

Where the calories come from is a very good point - it's what made me cut down on white bread, rice and pasta. And the thing with Weight Watchers and the likes is that you're paying a premium for food that certainly doesn't look that good. I'm lucky in that I've always enjoyed cooking so ready-made stuff doesn't really appeal to me, but I know it can be a saver for those who might not have the time or confidence to cook food from scratch. I think that was the problem for my sister - she used the Cambridge Diet products when she went on her crash diets but in the end she came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the effort. She got a slow cooker and started to prepare more of her food, and that's had an impact.

Calorie counting worries me a bit. My nephew seems to have become a bit obsessed with his intake and is losing weight when he really doesn't need to. Hope he can get back on track and eat healthily rather than worry about how many calories he's consuming.

[Schmidt]

I agree the very low-cal versions aren't great for the majority (and would NEVER recommend without medical supervision) but there are further benefits to IF versus a square 3 meals a day depending on what you're doing it for. You don't have to do IF as a weight loss tool. You can do it for general health, when the body isn't constantly processing your stomach contents, it can get on with doing other jobs. Autophagy is a wonderful process, it's effectively a de-aging tool and who wouldn't love that shit! Most see a reduction in inflammation in the body. I have a dodgy knee and it never feels better than when I do consistent fasts, when I eat 'normally' it aches like fuck, also see an increase my energy levels and as a result see a lift in mood. If you've got aches and pains, it's worth a go, even eating at maintenance.

Absolutely loads of cases on fasting/keto subreddits of people being able to undo the damage of type 2, but you see the people who've been successful long term opted for IF and keeping their calories at a small deficit on TDEE for their current weight. Keto can shift weight fast but I don't believe it's sustainable over the long term for most people who try it, too many go onto it have success and as soon as they switch back to a normal diet the weight comes back on quickly.

Yeah all of that is fair, I was focused primarily on the weight loss aspect of IF, as I think it's important people don't think that they have to follow a lifestyle they might hate to achieve their goals.

As for people on keto regaining weight when they leave it, that makes complete sense. One of the benefits of keto is that it's very difficult to over eat when you're largely consuming proteins and fats, so on keto you never really learn portion control, you just physically struggle to over eat. That means that when you come off of keto you haven't really learned anything that'll help keep the weight off, and just end up going back to old habits.

IF does have the advantage in that regard as it can be done long term, similar can be said of just tracking what you eat and developing an understanding of how much you actually need, but of course the latter is harder as there are no hard rules about eating.

[jonnypb]

Soon as you say you're on a fast or you're skipping a meal most people panic like you're going to drop dead. It does take discipline to get going on it, but once you see the effects there isn't any going back, I see better benefits on 23:1 than I do on 16:8 so that's my daily. I have done longer sometimes, purely because I've got to tea time and I just haven't been hungry. Can't see me doing extended ones, though I have read there's immune system benefits post 72hr. I drink a hell of a lot more water now as well, which is never a bad thing.

Yeah I'm not actually keen on the term IF as the word fasting won't sit well with a lot of people and will put people off.  Fasting sounds like you're starving yourself and doing something bad.  I can quite easily do 20:4 and have done a few 24 hour fasts without much problem, like you say the bigger the fasting time window, the bigger the benefit.  I've not done longer fasts, but know a few people who will do a 48-72 hour fast once a month.  At that point Autophagy really kicks in to clean out damaged cells in order to regenerate newer healthier cells. 

Calorie counting worries me a bit. My nephew seems to have become a bit obsessed with his intake and is losing weight when he really doesn't need to. Hope he can get back on track and eat healthily rather than worry about how many calories he's consuming.

That's a very valid point and has just reminded me of a pod cast that I listened to a couple of years ago about a lady who had an eating disorder and it stemmed from calorie counting and she became obsessed with it.  It got to the point where she wouldn't eat much and if she thought she had eaten too many calories she would make herself sick.  The outcome of it was she got help and was able to transition to a healthy eating pattern.  What was also interesting was that she attended a support group for eating disorders and it became apparent that many people who end up with eating disorders are people who have been on some form of calorie controlled diets.

[Claire.]

Yeah all of that is fair, I was focused primarily on the weight loss aspect of IF, as I think it's important people don't think that they have to follow a lifestyle they might hate to achieve their goals.

As for people on keto regaining weight when they leave it, that makes complete sense. One of the benefits of keto is that it's very difficult to over eat when you're largely consuming proteins and fats, so on keto you never really learn portion control, you just physically struggle to over eat. That means that when you come off of keto you haven't really learned anything that'll help keep the weight off, and just end up going back to old habits.

IF does have the advantage in that regard as it can be done long term, similar can be said of just tracking what you eat and developing an understanding of how much you actually need, but of course the latter is harder as there are no hard rules about eating.

Yeah, I think we're in broad agreement here. The concept of 'cheat days' always comes up as the death knell for a lot of people on keto, cos you're denying yourself things - no sugar, little to no fruit or root veg, it's fucking grim - can't even have a biscuit cos it'll blow all your macros.

[Claire.]

Yeah I'm not actually keen on the term IF as the word fasting won't sit well with a lot of people and will put people off.  Fasting sounds like you're starving yourself and doing something bad.  I can quite easily do 20:4 and have done a few 24 hour fasts without much problem, like you say the bigger the fasting time window, the bigger the benefit.  I've not done longer fasts, but know a few people who will do a 48-72 hour fast once a month.  At that point Autophagy really kicks in to clean out damaged cells in order to regenerate newer healthier cells.

I think it was in a Michael Mosely book, he did a 3 or 4 day fast and saw great benefits after talking to a woman with an immune disorder and used the fasts to regenerate white blood cells - I can't remember exactly her outcome (cured or for managing symptoms) but it's definitely interesting. I've done 48 a few times but never over.

[Bioluminescence]

Yeah I'm not actually keen on the term IF as the word fasting won't sit well with a lot of people and will put people off.  Fasting sounds like you're starving yourself and doing something bad.  I can quite easily do 20:4 and have done a few 24 hour fasts without much problem, like you say the bigger the fasting time window, the bigger the benefit.  I've not done longer fasts, but know a few people who will do a 48-72 hour fast once a month.  At that point Autophagy really kicks in to clean out damaged cells in order to regenerate newer healthier cells. 

That's a very valid point and has just reminded me of a pod cast that I listened to a couple of years ago about a lady who had an eating disorder and it stemmed from calorie counting and she became obsessed with it.  It got to the point where she wouldn't eat much and if she thought she had eaten too many calories she would make herself sick.  The outcome of it was she got help and was able to transition to a healthy eating pattern.  What was also interesting was that she attended a support group for eating disorders and it became apparent that many people who end up with eating disorders are people who have been on some form of calorie controlled diets.

I did a bit of research on autophagy and autoimmune disease and while autophagy enhancement seems to help in lupus and inflammatory bowel disease, it can aggravate rheumatoid arthritis. I'm going to do a bit more research into this.

Do you remember which podcast it was by any chance? It sounds interesting, and not really surprising. My nephew has seen how difficult it's been for his dad to get into healthy habits and to lose weight, and I think it's become a bit of an obsession as a result. My sister's keeping an eye on it but he's at uni so there's only so much she can do.

I keep on forgetting to mention the "eat 30 different unprocessed plant-based foods a week" recommendation, which is supposed to improve your gut microbiome and help in weight loss. I've always eaten enough fruit and veg, but perhaps it's not been diverse enough. I find it quite easy to stick to that because it's a matter of ensuring I include things I don't usually eat regularly. When I make a smoothie I use at least ten different plant-based stuff (nuts, seeds, fruit, silken tofu, oat milk, spirulina) so that's an easy way to get that number up. There's really no downside to this I'd say.

[jonnypb]

Do you remember which podcast it was by any chance? It sounds interesting, and not really surprising. My nephew has seen how difficult it's been for his dad to get into healthy habits and to lose weight, and I think it's become a bit of an obsession as a result. My sister's keeping an eye on it but he's at uni so there's only so much she can do.

It could have been one of the Shana Hussin Fast to Heal ones, but can't be sure as it was at least a couple of years ago and I listened to so many different podcasts/videos when I started IF. 

There's quite a bit of info online about the links between calorie counting and eating disorders.  I remember reading this a few months ago and you don't realise how much of an impact doing something simple like printing calories on a menu can have for many people.

[McSquared]

Nobody needs to eat a total food replacement diet. Anyone consuming only 800 calories a day will lose a shit of weight, regardless of the balance of macros and nutrients.

But it isn’t just about losing weight. I could eat 800 cals of crisps and sugar, but it would not do me any good, which is why tfr exists so that you can get an easy to follow plan that gives you what you need, and why these things are available as medical programmes on the nhs and private to specifically help people with diabetes and obesity

https://www.england.nhs.uk/2022/01/nhs-soups-and-shakes-diet-helps-thousands-shed-the-pounds/

https://www.phc.ox.ac.uk/research/diet-plans

The professor (world leading expert in diabetes) in the video suggested the diet!

The whole point of the thread was about how to control type 2 diabetes and doing a tfr for 2 months put up to 50% of people in his trial into remission.

[PaulF]

Soon as you say you're on a fast or you're skipping a meal most people panic like you're going to drop dead. It does take discipline to get going on it, but once you see the effects there isn't any going back, I see better benefits on 23:1 than I do on 16:8 so that's my daily. I have done longer sometimes, purely because I've got to tea time and I just haven't been hungry. Can't see me doing extended ones, though I have read there's immune system benefits post 72hr. I drink a hell of a lot more water now as well, which is never a bad thing.

Sorry, but are you saying some days you have a window of one hour in which you can eat?

[Claire.]

Sorry, but are you saying some days you have a window of one hour in which you can eat?

Yeah, it's not as extreme as it sounds, I've never ate breakfast in my life and used to regularly skip dinner when I was office based. Only difference really is that I now also don't snack. I take vitamins and supplements to keep my electrolytes and all that in balance, outside of the window I only have water or the odd espresso. I'm not mental and if I'm ill or feel off, I break the fast, it's all about listening to your body. And it's not some days, it's pretty much every day.

If you have ANY medical issues though, I wouldn't recommend fucking about with what or when you eat without informing a doctor because you'll need advice on any meds.

[PaulF]

Good point about the meds . Thanks.

Also good point about the snacking. I don't tend to eat big meals but graze on crap. Cutting that out would help loads. And restricting myself to water outside a certain period should be fairly easy too!

All advice here, gratefully received.

[Bioluminescence]

It turns out my sister was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes yesterday, so big changes ahead for her. She seems quite philosophical about it but she's also said she's not actually processing it right now. She also has shingles, so yeah. I can across this article today and it seems to offer some reasonable advice. Apparently they're recommending a new type of diet (between 800 and 1200 calories a day for three months) for people with Type 2 diabetes which is showing encouraging results, though they warn it might not be suitable or safe for everyone and to seek medical advice before starting.

It could have been one of the Shana Hussin Fast to Heal ones, but can't be sure as it was at least a couple of years ago and I listened to so many different podcasts/videos when I started IF. 

There's quite a bit of info online about the links between calorie counting and eating disorders.  I remember reading this a few months ago and you don't realise how much of an impact doing something simple like printing calories on a menu can have for many people.

Thank you, I'll have a look at this.

[stewil007]

It turns out my sister was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes yesterday, so big changes ahead for her. She seems quite philosophical about it but she's also said she's not actually processing it right now. She also has shingles, so yeah. I can across this article today and it seems to offer some reasonable advice. Apparently they're recommending a new type of diet (between 800 and 1200 calories a day for three months) for people with Type 2 diabetes which is showing encouraging results, though they warn it might not be suitable or safe for everyone and to seek medical advice before starting.

Thank you, I'll have a look at this.

When i was diagnosed with Type 2, the doctor signed me off work for 3 weeks to process what i was actually told, i didn't think anything of it but the doctor was like 'this is a life threatening disease unless you control it'.  It is one of those things that needs to be processed so you can start managing it more efficiently.

I know one of my biggest downfalls is biscuits, and after my recent blood results (74 HB1AC) i know i have to change my cravings.....first step is buying sugar free biscuits......seems to be doing the trick so far!

[Bioluminescence]

When i was diagnosed with Type 2, the doctor signed me off work for 3 weeks to process what i was actually told, i didn't think anything of it but the doctor was like 'this is a life threatening disease unless you control it'.  It is one of those things that needs to be processed so you can start managing it more efficiently.

I know one of my biggest downfalls is biscuits, and after my recent blood results (74 HB1AC) i know i have to change my cravings.....first step is buying sugar free biscuits......seems to be doing the trick so far!

She'll be glad to know there are options, thanks for the info! It's good to see that you're managing to keep it under control, when were you diagnosed?

I think for her the issue is that she's dealing with the pain and fatigue of shingles. She seems to have already taken some positive steps - using the money she's going to save by giving up treats and takeaways and putting it towards something she enjoys (plants and books). Eating healthily isn't a huge barrier for her but her body struggles with fibre so it probably means quite a lot of tweaking. She cycles and swims, and her local pool is about to open again, so I think she'll be ok. But she'll still need to process of course - it's a huge change.

[TepidT2O]

When i was diagnosed with Type 2, the doctor signed me off work for 3 weeks to process what i was actually told, i didn't think anything of it but the doctor was like 'this is a life threatening disease unless you control it'.  It is one of those things that needs to be processed so you can start managing it more efficiently.

I know one of my biggest downfalls is biscuits, and after my recent blood results (74 HB1AC) i know i have to change my cravings.....first step is buying sugar free biscuits......seems to be doing the trick so far!

My father in law’s was 140 odd!

Might be an idea to try to switch to a different snack?  Nuts, biltong… that sort of thing?