Author Topic: Scottish politics [brought to you in association with Walkers shortbread]  (Read 31448 times)

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It’s not a very big motor home

£110,000 seems outrageous money for it.
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Offline Elmo!

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Their explanation was it was meant to be used for campaigning during Covid, but it hasn't seemingly being used for anything - official or personal.

I can sort of see why it might be considered useful during social distancing, but I'm not sure why you wouldn't just lease one like is normally done with the campaign buses.

Offline Red-Soldier

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I doubt it’s either Sturgeon or Hamza who would have their hands in the till, they have way too much to lose. It’s probably someone in their finance department or someone else behind the scenes, and the questions around Sturgeon and Hamza will around how much did they know I would guess.

Sturgeon knew about it, at the very least.  That's why she went, when she did.

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Was it definitely bought with SNP funds? Would be pretty hard to explain that!

They said that they bought it as a campaign bus,strange choice if true.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Losing 600 grand is pretty bad. If it's difficult to trace the expenditure, that might suggest someone's nicked it and worked hard to cover their tracks. Not a good look for the party of Scottish independence to blow their war chest. Might turn voters off them. Could certainly damage their cause. If they can mismanage their own funds so badly, they can hardly be seen sound custodians of the country's finances.

Didn't the nationalists bankrupt the country a few hundred years ago, on their voyages to the New World.....?

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Didn't the nationalists bankrupt the country a few hundred years ago, on their voyages to the New World.....?

The Darien Scheme was a private venture, and there is a difference between "Nationalists" and "Scots".

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Didn't the nationalists bankrupt the country a few hundred years ago, on their voyages to the New World.....?

I think the country was on the ropes and it was a desperate, final gamble to try and cash in on the New World and get their own trade network going. They established a colony they called New Edinburgh, but I think it was wiped out be disease. Then England sent an emissary to Scotland and offered to compensate them for the entire financial loss of the expedition - if they agreed to the Act of Union.

I think Simon Schama covered it in his History of Great Britain series back in the 90s, but I've not watched it forever.
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The Darien Scheme was a private venture, and there is a difference between "Nationalists" and "Scots".
Do you think that led in turn to the reputation for the Scottish having a parsimonious relationship with money?  i.e.  as a reaction to the foaled scheme
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Offline Musketeer Gripweed

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It's a very nice motor home to be fair.

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A mate of mine bought a second hand Winnebago for about £25k after the council CPO'd her home. She then had to take the previous owner to court to recover costs after it turned out it needed a lot of work doing to it that he'd neglected to mention.

She still has it, though. I've been on it plenty of times when she's been around Sefton Park. It was bloody cold to sleep in though. She couldn't use the generator in case it caused a noise complaint.
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They said that they bought it as a campaign bus,strange choice if true.

Yeah, that’s does sound pretty odd, and then parking it at your mums house…
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Didn't the nationalists bankrupt the country a few hundred years ago, on their voyages to the New World.....?

Yeah, the idea was to go to what is now Panama and build a road across the country, kind of like a Panama Canal but by road. Unfortunately for the Scots the settlers all got sick with diseases and died quite quickly and the plan failed, and the Scots were then left skint and had to agree to the Act of Union a couple of years later with England covering some of the losses or something like that.
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Offline Iska

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Yeah, the idea was to go to what is now Panama and build a road across the country, kind of like a Panama Canal but by road. Unfortunately for the Scots the settlers all got sick with diseases and died quite quickly and the plan failed, and the Scots were then left skint and had to agree to the Act of Union a couple of years later with England covering some of the losses or something like that.
I was listening to some stuff earlier about the Auld Alliance, and William Wallace, and various campaigns to and fro across the border.  It’s a bit weird, after centuries of battles, that it should be a crappy scheme to settle Panama that finished the country off for good.

Offline Nobby Reserve

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Losing 600 grand is pretty bad. If it's difficult to trace the expenditure, that might suggest someone's nicked it and worked hard to cover their tracks. Not a good look for the party of Scottish independence to blow their war chest. Might turn voters off them. Could certainly damage their cause. If they can mismanage their own funds so badly, they can hardly be seen sound custodians of the country's finances.


I'm not trying to play this down, but £600k isn't 'lost' or 'missing'.

£666k was raised.
There's only £97k left in cash
But £272k in assets
So around £300k sems unaccounted for.

My instinct is that this hasn't been embezzled, but rather absorbed into general SNP finances (to help pay for election campaigning, etc). It's still serious (as people have donated for a specific, advertised purpose and it's been used for another) but I don't think there's been criminality for personal gain (of course, I might be being naively wrong!)
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I was listening to some stuff earlier about the Auld Alliance, and William Wallace, and various campaigns to and fro across the border.  It’s a bit weird, after centuries of battles, that it should be a crappy scheme to settle Panama that finished the country off for good.

It’s not something I’m an expert in but I suspect the Panama plan might have just accelerated something that was going to happen eventually anyway. England was already colonising the rest of the world by then so was growing richer where as Scotland wasn’t, the fact England and Scotland had the same monarch meant Scotland couldn’t form alliances with other countries like France like it had in the past so sooner or later there would have been a political union I think.
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Offline Iska

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It’s not something I’m an expert in but I suspect the Panama plan might have just accelerated something that was going to happen eventually anyway. England was already colonising the rest of the world by then so was growing richer where as Scotland wasn’t, the fact England and Scotland had the same monarch meant Scotland couldn’t form alliances with other countries like France like it had in the past so sooner or later there would have been a political union I think.
I suppose that must be right, it made too much sense for it not to happen.  I’ve never been clearly on precisely how Norway seems to have got passed around between Sweden, Denmark and independence, but I can’t think of many other countries that managed to slip their way out of a joint monarchy into an independent one again.  Probably happened loads of times in the Holy Roman Empire etc.

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England was already colonising pillaging from the rest of the world by then so was growing richer

Slight correction  :P
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Offline Lusty

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Something slightly funny about how smalltime it all is.  £600k going missing and the mother in law getting a new caravan ;D

Matt Hancock managed to pay his pub landlord £40m and that was basically a medium sized scandal by Tory standards.

Offline Elmo!

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Part of the reason (but certainly not the only one) the Darien scheme failed was due to England blocking anyone from trading with it.

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Something slightly funny about how smalltime it all is.  £600k going missing and the mother in law getting a new caravan ;D

Matt Hancock managed to pay his pub landlord £40m and that was basically a medium sized scandal by Tory standards.

That's really how I feel about it all.

It's all a bit small time in the wider scheme of things.

Of course Centrists who want 10 years of Tory Lite in the form of Starmer are loving every minute of this because this corruption (because this is still that, sorry but it just is), makes the SNP's line of being different to the Westminster parties rather hollow.

All rather depressing.

Will say this, I'd suspect how the London media have gone after this story in comparison to the PPE contracts regarding certain Conservative and Unionist Party donors, will not be forgotten by younger Indy supporters - it makes Independence more inevitable if in a longer time line - say 30 years instead of five years.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 06:57:24 am by Commie Bobbie »
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Part of the reason (but certainly not the only one) the Darien scheme failed was due to England blocking anyone from trading with it.
England (for once) actually doing something to stop slave trading should be applauded..! (Even though it was accidental)

Although England (and Holland) mostly did this to avoid war with the Spanish who were most unhappy to see the Scottish expedition on what they considered “their turf”.. and also so as not to upset the east India company.

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Offline Elmo!

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England (for once) actually doing something to stop slave trading should be applauded..! (Even though it was accidental)

Although England (and Holland) mostly did this to avoid war with the Spanish who were most unhappy to see the Scottish expedition on what they considered “their turf”.. and also so as not to upset the east India company.

You're really stretching to give England credit there when that was, as you state, absolutely not the motivation.  ;D

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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To add, although the failed attempt at colonization and subsequent bankruptcy was a major factor in the Act of Union, it was not the only one. There was a 7-year gap lets not forget.

Of course the Scottish upper classes wanted in on colonialism, and realised joining England was the best way to cash in on this once the Darien Scheme failed and they went bankrupt. But this was also the time of the Jacobites and the Spanish War of Succession. It was acknowledged amongst both the Scottish and English upper classes that, in the context of global wars between European Great Powers - with a heavy backdrop of Protestant/Catholic animosity thrown in - that banding together was the best way to ensure strength, stability and a seat at the big table. Scots and English had already been jointly colonizing Northern Ireland under the authority of a joint monarch for the preceding 100 years, so teaming up to colonize even further-flung regions was hardly the greatest leap.

Long story short, Bannockburn and Braveheart are a complete irrelevance, but nevertheless vital to the idea of a backdrop of national victimhood that secessionist movements need to survive and thrive.

It is actually shocking how few people, on both sides of the English/Scottish border, actually know about the Act of Union and why the United Kingdom exists in the first place. You'd think it would be mandatory teaching in schools, but it isn't. In most countries it would be some sort of national holiday, but it isn't even that. I guess it ties in with our wider tendency to try and minimize our imperialist past. Iit doesn't suit either English or Scottish people to remember that political union and our modern political histories sprang about from a desire to protect a particular Protestant line of succession and colonize the world (plus a joint-hatred and mistrust of Catholics).
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 02:28:03 pm by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline Elmo!

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That does ignore the fact the Act of Union was extremely unpopular at the time in Scotland and it came about because the nobles who had lost all their wealth in Darien voted it through against the will of the population.

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That does ignore the fact the Act of Union was extremely unpopular at the time in Scotland and it came about because the nobles who had lost all their wealth in Darien voted it through against the will of the population.

Of course, but what was the act of Union, or indeed any political union of the age, if not an agreement between nobles and upper classes? Less than 10% of the English adult male population voted in the English Parliamentarians who voted through the Act of Union. I can't comment on how popular, or unpopular, or simply not commented on, it was amongst the English masses of the age. I don't know anything about that, although I'm sure the work is out there. But it is also of less interest to English nationalist historians to dig back and try and prove it was popular or unpopular to suit a modern narrative - unlike modern Scottish historians pushing a nationalist narrative.

I suppose the best thing that can be said for it is that, unlike most international political matters of the age, it was done peacefully. Even many of the unified European nations that we now take for granted (Germany, Italy etc) were united through force of arms a whole 150 years later than the Act of Union.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 02:29:52 pm by Indomitable_Carp »

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I'm not trying to play this down, but £600k isn't 'lost' or 'missing'.

£666k was raised.
There's only £97k left in cash
But £272k in assets
So around £300k sems unaccounted for.

My instinct is that this hasn't been embezzled, but rather absorbed into general SNP finances (to help pay for election campaigning, etc). It's still serious (as people have donated for a specific, advertised purpose and it's been used for another) but I don't think there's been criminality for personal gain (of course, I might be being naively wrong!)

Oh I agree. But 300 grand is still no small potatoes.

If it was the US it would be a campaign finance violation. You're not allowed to raise money under the pretext of one thing, only to use it on another. I imagine there are similar laws in th UK
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Offline lobsterboy

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Funny how the press, TV and the Police are less inclined to chase the billions stolen by Bunter, Mone, Sunak, Mogg and all the Tories. Not to mention the likes of Odey and the rest.

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Part of the reason (but certainly not the only one) the Darien scheme failed was due to England blocking anyone from trading with it.

Yes, this was before the union of the crowns. Elizabeth did her best to harry and block Scots ships. The expedition was a disaster on all accounts. They took woollens/tweeds to barter with the indigenous folks of Panama for instance. The toffs who funded the expeditions were bankrupted and bailed out by the English crown for their signatures on the Act of Union. The rumour is that this was signed in a secure basement as the common folk rioted. Some things never change, eh? Our Local History Librarian used to do an excellent lecture on all of it.
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Offline Elmo!

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Yes, this was before the union of the crowns. Elizabeth did her best to harry and block Scots ships. The expedition was a disaster on all accounts. They took woollens/tweeds to barter with the indigenous folks of Panama for instance. The toffs who funded the expeditions were bankrupted and bailed out by the English crown for their signatures on the Act of Union. The rumour is that this was signed in a secure basement as the common folk rioted. Some things never change, eh? Our Local History Librarian used to do an excellent lecture on all of it.

This is not quite right, the union of the crowns was 100 years earlier in 1603, the Darien Scheme was in the 1690s.

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Funny how the press, TV and the Police are less inclined to chase the billions stolen by Bunter, Mone, Sunak, Mogg and all the Tories. Not to mention the likes of Odey and the rest.

Even The Guardian has attack pieces against Scotland/the SNP almost every day. Crace is at it again today. Suits his political agenda, I guess, despite ignoring the bleeding obvious. Ian Hislop has a few barbs about the tens of billions stolen/wasted by the Tories during the pandemic, but where are the leftist /independent press on this? There should be uproar. Why do Brits meekly accept things these days?
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This is not quite right, the union of the crowns was 100 years earlier in 1603, the Darien Scheme was in the 1690s.

Hmmm, guess I didn’t listen closely enough 😊
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Wikipedia article on the Darien Scheme:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme
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Even The Guardian has attack pieces against Scotland/the SNP almost every day. Crace is at it again today. Suits his political agenda, I guess, despite ignoring the bleeding obvious. Ian Hislop has a few barbs about the tens of billions stolen/wasted by the Tories during the pandemic, but where are the leftist /independent press on this? There should be uproar. Why do Brits meekly accept things these days?

How is 'The National' in Scotland dealing with the scandal?
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How is 'The National' in Scotland dealing with the scandal?

Actually, I’ve no idea. I’ve never read it. The notion of what it is makes me uncomfortable. I prefer my news sources to try and be unbiased. Perhaps it is? 🤷🏽‍♂️

I know a lot of people get angry about news organisations (The Washington Post in the US for instance got flack under Trump) for “both-sidesism” but I think it’s important to report on what everyone says and does in the political realm. The National clearly has been set up try and counter the overwhelming unionism of the other Scottish (or pretend Scottish) newspapers: The Herald, The Scotsman, the Telegraph, Mail, Express variants and the Murdoch lot. But you must know what you’re likely to get if you read it.
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How is 'The National' in Scotland dealing with the scandal?
Please. They’ve got bigger fish to fry.

Offline Elmo!

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Actually, I’ve no idea. I’ve never read it. The notion of what it is makes me uncomfortable. I prefer my news sources to try and be unbiased. Perhaps it is? 🤷🏽‍♂️

I know a lot of people get angry about news organisations (The Washington Post in the US for instance got flack under Trump) for “both-sidesism” but I think it’s important to report on what everyone says and does in the political realm. The National clearly has been set up try and counter the overwhelming unionism of the other Scottish (or pretend Scottish) newspapers: The Herald, The Scotsman, the Telegraph, Mail, Express variants and the Murdoch lot. But you must know what you’re likely to get if you read it.

The National is also owned by the same group that owns The Herald. It's just a company trying to take advantage of another market, and it's a rag with barely any readership.

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The Record (which I used to occasionally skim through at my folks) were trying to cater for both Unionist and Separatist audiences at one point, no doubt they didn’t want to limit their market. No idea what they’re like these days.
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Please. They’ve got bigger fish to fry.


Covering all the big issues  ;D

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Covering all the big issues  ;D

I'd have thought you would be happy to see oil slicks being covered?  ;)

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Covering all the big issues  ;D

The lead story is astonishing. I can't believe it's an exclusive.
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